We hear it often said by
today’s ‘Prosperity Pastors’ that
”poverty is a SIN”, and they
then go ahead to back their
claim with several quotations
from the Bible.

It is no surprise then that most
christians now think prosperity
to mean being in good
standing with their ‘God’. Of
course at the top of the
hierarchy, as the holiest of all
is the ‘pastor’, who must then
prove his holiness and height
of righteousness by amassing
so much wealth at least
beyond that of most of his
parishioners.

This has led to the justification
of several crimes and financial
indiscretions, as long as part of
the proceeds are paid in tithes
(and in Nigeria contribution to
the building of church
auditorium and pavilions,
either partly or fully).It is no
wonder therefore that a
country like Nigeria could be
the most religious and the
most corrupt at the same time.

Wealth has become the new
Righteousness and it’s
acquisition, Salvation. Gone
are the days when it was said
that ‘it would be easier for the
camel to pass through the eye
of the needle than for the Rich
Man to get into the Kingdom
Of Heaven.’

The church has since ceased
to be the moral compass of
the populace because of this.
You can’t be telling people to
do as you say and not as you
do. The pastors have engaged
several means and tactics to
bring about a massive swelling
in the number of members
and have perfected means to
divert worship from the ‘God’
they claim to serve to their
own selves.

They have invested heavily in
technology and the electronic
media to push their perverted
messages across to the
people, and seeing that
miracles alone will not do the
trick (many have been
confirmed to be stage
managed, while some
‘converts’ thought to have
been cured of one illness or
the other, ‘relapsed’ or even
died of the same illness), have
engaged the services of
sacerdotal broads to seduce
‘upwardly mobile’ young men
into their fold with promises of
heaven and earth (even some
sexual healing time) once they
‘accept CHRIST as their
personal lord and saviour. It
doesn’t matter if the person
gives up a former life of
licentiousness or not.

The pastors themselves have
then gone ahead to expand
their hedges by building
schools far beyond the reach
of the majority of their
members, hospitals that would
not admit patients without an
initial deposit again far beyond
the reach of the majority of
their members, and most
recently in Nigeria in inter-state
transportation.

The latest craze of acquisition
of jets by most of the pastors
in Nigeria is already an
overflogged issue so I will not
go beyond mentioning it, as
it’s also the least of the
conglomerates these so called
‘Men Of God’ run in the name
of ‘God’.

Spirituality has been sacrificed
on the altar of satisfying the
lusts of members as well as
the gluttonous appetites of
pastors. Running a church has
become family business, and
depending on the church in
Nigeria for example, the
heirarchy is usually made up
of people from the same
ethnic group as the pastor,
while the closest to the top are
strictly occupied by the
pastors’ siblings (when the kids
aren’t of age) and/or children.

Because these pastors have
created their own queer idea
of what heaven is, they also
claim to have the key to
‘heaven’ as well, with the
power to decide who will or
won’t enter therein. They have
created fear in the hearts of
their members and others
outside the walls of their
church with the words, ‘Touch
not my annointed, and do my
Prophets no harm’, to avert
any form of criticism of their
ways and acts. Hence, it’s not
unusual to hear many refuse
to see anything wrong with the
excesses of the so called ‘Men
Of God’, or even be drawn to
listen to their misdeamenours
as they’ve elevated them
beyond human frailties (all at
the expense of the pockets of
the same members who
sometimes have to shed
proper clothing to wear rags
advertising the pastors’ next
‘Impartation’ programme).

Pastors who couldn’t survive
as businessmen outside the
church now teach
businessmen how to make it
in business after cunning them
out of their hard earned
money. The ones that couldn’t
pass while in school organise
inspiration seminars for
students to pass.
Now only a part of the Bible is
‘inspired’ while the rest (that
focus on salvation) does not
belong to the present church.

But just like other fads before,
this will also pass. In time, one
by one the pastors will be
exposed for the vermins that
they are. ‘Leeches, that never
say enough’ is how they are
described by the Bible they
clutch to the chests daily.
When they shall say ‘Peace and
Security’, then shall sudden
destruction come ‘pon them!

That time soon come.

‘kovich


SALVATION AND THE GOSPEL OF PROSPERITY | madukovich's cogitations - http://madukovich./2013/06/05/salvation-and-the-gospel-of-prosperity/

madukovich:
Pastors who couldn’t survive as businessmen outside the church now teach businessmen how to make it in business after cunning them out of their hard earned money. The ones that couldn’t pass while in school organise inspiration seminars for students to pass. Now only a part of the Bible is ‘inspired’ while the rest (that focus on salvation) does not
belong to the present church.y/

This just proves that they must be of God . It's not by man ,nor of the flesh . God using weak thing of the worl to confound the mighty . By the time illiterates start teaching graduate you must know its only God who can do such.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
Instead, God has deliberately chosen to use ideas the world considers foolish and of little worth in order to shame those people considered by the world as wise and great. He has chosen a plan despised by the world, counted as nothing at all, and used it to bring down to nothing those the world considers great, so that no one anywhere can ever brag in the presence of God.

And Joagbaje couldnt respond to any other thing than the quote he pasted above. Should we say the OP is right concerning every other thing he wrote on the prosperity cult, save the quote U brought forth?

Let us assume so... and take up the issue Oga Jo will have us look into. There is no way U can compare that lofty scripture in 1 Cor 1 quoted to the nonsense that goes on in these prosperity churches. Paul talked about the weak and foolish things of GOD: Is the prosperity cult of God?

My guy U will do well to accept the position of the OP and make amends before God comes with his fury and consume U guyz.

And BTW why are U not at the Christ embassy thread were Chris Oyakhilome is being exposed for what he is: a charlattan.

The prosperity gospel is not the gospel of Jesus. The OP has shown us that Jesus, His apostles or Christians in time past never bore these fruits; The bible cannot be re written for our own generation to allow for a prosperity jargon.

DrummaBoy: And Joagbaje couldnt respond to any other thing than the quote he pasted above. .

I didn't break any rule have I? . Why not meditate on the scripture I quoted? The op was wrong of course but that part just got my attention.

@drumma..you have now taken the role of Jesus as the Law giver and judge abi? Who are you to judge a fellow believer just because he does not agree with your stand point on prosperity,tithes and the law? Best be careful you don't fall into error and a ditch.You show yourself as too self righteous for your comfort.

Bidam: @drumma..you have now taken the role of Jesus as the Law giver and judge abi? Who are you to judge a fellow believer just because he does not agree with your stand point on prosperity,tithes and the law? Best be careful you don't fall into error and a ditch.You show yourself as too self righteous for your comfort.

Bidam, the issue is not drummaboy but the prosperity gospel.


The question is, did God exempt Christians from the pangs and groan and suffering of this world?

shdemidemi:

Bidam, the issue is not drummaboy but the prosperity gospel.


The question is, did God exempt Christians from the pangs and groan and suffering of this world?

Pangs and groans are forms of prayer.Sufferings are a test of faith,you forgot to mention the part of rest..or did you reserve it for the after-life?

Bidam: Pangs and groans are forms of prayer.Sufferings are a test of faith,you forgot to mention the part of rest..or did you reserve it for the after-life?

That is my question to you, are we guaranteed rest in this world without the sufferings?

shdemidemi:

That is my question to you, are we guaranteed rest in this world without the sufferings?

I still don't get your context of suffering.Based on my understanding suffering doesn't only come as persecution.Prayers,study of the word and fasting are all forms of sufferings Christians go through.

Bidam: I still don't get your context of suffering.Based on my understanding suffering doesn't only come as persecution.Prayers,study of the word and fasting are all forms of sufferings Christians go through.

I believe every man upon the face of the earth have something they groan about, some without a child, some without job some without good health to name a few. But we all have that one or more things that causes pain.

This is what I call sufferings, my question to you is if God exempts Christians from going through such problems.

shdemidemi:

I believe every man upon the face of the earth have something they groan about, some without a child, some without job some without good health to name a few. But we all have that one or more things that causes pain.

This is what I call sufferings, my question to you is if God exempts Christians from going through such problems.

Nope,but that doesn't negate the fact that God still prosper his children.He is not an unjust God.

Bidam: Nope,but that doesn't negate the fact that God still prosper his children.He is not an unjust God.

Are you saying as children of God, there is a way or a formula God has put in place to prosper us in this world?

shdemidemi:

Are you saying as children of God, there is a way or a formula God has put in place to prosper us in this world?

You this guy, you just like to argue sha..Is prosperity not in your bible?

Bidam: Is prosperity not in your bible?

Dnt mind em,Jesus told us we wuld av challenges,bt he also sed dt he overcame d world...dey've refusd 2 use God's word in full,dey inteprete scriptures in a way 2feel ok wit deir situation

Bidam: You this guy, you just like to argue sha..Is prosperity not in your bible?

I am asking you questions about the prosperity doctrines, I am not arguing ( not yet).

You mentioned prosperity is written in the bible, is that enough to create a doctrine of prosperity?

I have come across a part in the scripture where God says we will go through fire, he didn't say he will quench it, he says he will be with us. I also wonder why God sends us a comforter if we would not need his service as Christians.

shdemidemi:

I am asking you questions about the prosperity doctrines, I am not arguing ( not yet).

And i replied you based on the understanding God gave me.

You mentioned prosperity is written in the bible, is that enough to create a doctrine of prosperity?

Yes,it is.

I have come across a part in the scripture where God says we will go through fire, he didn't say he will quench it, he says he will be with us. I also wonder why God sends us a comforter if we would not need his service as Christians.

Can you kindly quote the verses pls.Am not a bible encyclopedia you know .On the aspect of the comforter,confused.com.expatiate.

Bidam: And i replied you based on the understanding God gave me.
Yes,it is.

Are you saying I can pick up any word and start a doctrine or a gospel on it as long as it is in the bible

Bidam:
Can you kindly quote the verses pls.Am not a bible encyclopedia you know .On the aspect of the comforter,confused.com.expatiate.

Psalm 23

4 [b]Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, [/b]I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The word says we will walk through these things but we shall be comforted.

Who needs a comforter? A man in pains.

The comforter is there to encourage us even while we go through the pains and tribulations of life.

Isn't this contrary to 'think it and get it' doctrine or the 'say it and get it'?

shdemidemi:
Are you saying I can pick up any word and start a doctrine or a gospel on it as long as it is in the bible

Scriptures abound on the prosperity God intends for physical Israel and also the church.Money is NOT prosperity.More so,Scripture is profitable for doctrine,

Psalm 23

4 [b]Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, [/b]I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The word says we will walk through these things but we shall be comforted.

Who needs a comforter? A man in pains.

The comforter is there to encourage us even while we go through the pains and tribulations of life.Isn't this contrary to 'think it and get it' doctrine or the 'say it and get it'?

You cherry picked the scriptures.The same scripture talks about preparing a table in the presence of enemies,anointing with oil and cup overflowing.

I again see the need to define the prosperity gospel in the light of scriptures seeing how many people are bound to its shackles. I am convinced that the biggest challenge the gospel of Jesus faces in our time is not from outside: Islam, Boko Haram, T B Joshua, Guru Maharaji and such cults; the biggest challenge to the gospel is from within and they are two fold: The prosperity gospel and the holiness movement. The former glorifies a worldly riches like scripture never taught and the latter re-enacts Moses laws from were it is buried to bring believers into a legalistic lifestyle. What is distressing about this is that 80% of churches that call themselves "living" churches, find themselves in this two folds. I will limit my discuss here to what scripture says.

Thus the gospel of grace is introduce:

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousneiss: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is all the gospel we called to believe: Justification is by faith alone. Following this faith two things come to the believer an imputation of righteousness by faith and the blessing that come to our lives as we trust God for things of this life. No one exemplifies this better than Abraham. Abraham obtained righteousness by faith and obtained Isaac by faith: the former being a spiritual blessing and the latter a physical.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness

The believers life will continually reflect the two needs above. The need for right standing with God which can only come by faith and the need to have our needs in this life met: our Isaac, which will only come by faith.

But let us observe what follows Chapter 4, chapter 5:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I can still remember the evening I saw Romans 5:1, the peace that flood my heart when I understood that scripture. But it doesnt end there: We have access in grace by Jesus Christ. This is what we glory in and all that we glory in. The gospel of God's grace to sinful humanity.

But notice something: verse 3, we glory in tribulation: God permits difficulties in our lives and we glory in it. Why because this tribulation is for a purpose, it is to work patience in us, which leads to experience and experience begat hope and hope makes not ashamed.

Notice: the trend there is no believing the gospel of grace, and enjoying the blessing of righteousness, etc, without leading to tribulation. That is why the gospel of grace cannot be divorced from suffering.

This is what the prosperity teaching denies.

The prosperity gospel teaches one aspect of the gospel of grace and that is the receipt of Isaac; it doesn't teach that there is an impartation of righteousness by faith. It combines the legalism of the holiness movement with the Judaistic thinking of upholding laws to obtain blessings. They then use the anointing to give credence to their doctrine. Paul spoke a lot about these men but our prosperity preachers with their perchance for picking scriptures out of context, never discuss those scriptures. let see them:

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Phillipians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

And Peter has a word on them too:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

There many other places in scriptures were the prosperity doctrine was spoken about. They do not preach the doctrine of our Lord and Savior: they preach a gospel that pleases the flesh - a demonic gospel.

Bidam: Scriptures abound on the prosperity God intends for physical Israel and also the church.Money is NOT prosperity.More so,Scripture is profitable for doctrine,

You cherry picked the scriptures.The same scripture talks about preparing a table in the presence of enemies,anointing with oil and cup overflowing.

Are you physical Israel?

Please show me where God intend prosperity to the church.

'Anointing with oil and cup overflowing' how does this support your prosperity gospel?

shdemidemi:

Are you physical Israel?

Nope, a spiritual one.

Please show me where God intend prosperity to the church

.3 John 2

'Anointing with oil and cup overflowing' how does this support your prosperity gospel?

Some of the resources that God gives to us include:

1. Anointing. 2. Calling. 3. Position and influence.
4. Possession. 5. Money. 6. People.

Bidam: . Nope, a spiritual one.

.3 John 2

2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

So, this man's prayer (not doctrine) has prompted the health and wealth ministry. What happens to all the doctrines of patience, perseverance, hope and Above all God's will?

Bidam: .
Some of the resources that God gives to us include:

1. Anointing. 2. Calling. 3. Position and influence.
4. Possession. 5. Money. 6. People.

Bro, that word anointing was never used in the whole of the New Testament, mind you we all have the Spirit of God deposited in us as believers.

Calling..hmm ok

Position and influence.. How where, please show me where or what you mean

Possession ?

Money...how, where?

shdemidemi:

2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

So, this man's prayer (not doctrine) has prompted the health and wealth ministry. What happens to all the doctrines of patience, perseverance, hope and Above all God's will?

Nope,health and wealth are the children's bread.

Bro, that word anointing was never used in the whole of the New Testament, mind you we all have the Spirit of God deposited in us as believers

Christos means the anointing.That's what i meant

Calling..hmm ok

Alrite.

Position and influence.. How where, please show me where or what you mean

Position in Christ.we are seated with Christ in heavenly places.We are meant to influence our world."Ye are the salt of the earth"

Possession ?

"upon mount Zion there shall be deliverance and holiness and the house of Jacob shall possess their possession"

Money...how, where?

Money is a defence. It is the love of money that is the root of evil,not money itself.When they left Egypt they did not go empty.These things are written for our learning.Sorry i don't have time to look up the scriptures.

Bidam: . Nope,health and wealth are the children's bread.

Gal 4:13
You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

In this verse I notice this apostle was not feeling too well and he also had problems with his eyes

15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

What Shall we then say happened to this apostle, considering the fact that he should enjoy the health and wealth more as a custodian of the gospel.

Bidam:
Money is a defence. It is the love of money that is the root of evil,not money itself.When they left Egypt they did not go empty.These things are written for our learning.Sorry i don't have time to look up the scriptures. .

1 tim
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

This sort of contradict what you are saying a bit, doesn't it?

You are saying money is part of the deal, the bible says just hope as long as you are eating and you have cloth to wear.

shdemidemi:
Gal 4:13
You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

In this verse I notice this apostle was not feeling too well and he also had problems with his eyes

15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

What Shall we then say happened to this apostle, considering the fact that he should enjoy the health and wealth more as a custodian of the gospel.

It is your christian liberty to pick what you want from scriptures.I remember sharing you my christian testimony about God healing me of hypertension,so should we discard the word of God on healing and wealth just because the apostle had a poor eyesight? That is not rightly dividing the word of truth if you ask me.The apostle Paul understood his calling and what he had to suffer for Christ which was part of the deal.Even when he prayed about the issue of his infirmity God said his grace was sufficient for him.

1 tim
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

This sort of contradict what you are saying a bit, doesn't it?

Like i said earlier the love of money is the root of evil.You re always on the internet discussing the gospel.Did you not use money to buy credit?Even if you claim that you worked hard for your money,is it not by the grace of God that you are strong and healthy? Is it by your own power? In the midst of the economic crunch and melt down i know of so many folks that lost their jobs and still God still prosper his children who believed and trust him. I lost my job 2 months back and to the glory of God i can confidently say that i have not for once begged for bread from anyone.It is God i tell you.God has supernaturally provided my basic needs one way or another through people.Funny enough i never told these people what i am going through.I told God about my needs and He provides them.In my opinion that is prosperity.

You are saying money is part of the deal, the bible says just hope as long as you are eating and you have cloth to wear.

It is money that we use in buying cloths and providing the basic needs for our families. I don't believe in stupendous and excess wealth but that does not mean God does not give individuals wealth in the church for the furtherance of the Gospel.Please get my understanding on this and let's not argue about God's prosperity which is in scriptures.Or are you saying Deuteronomy 28 is not applicable to Christians?

shdemidemi:

Bidam, the issue is not drummaboy but the prosperity gospel.


The question is, did God exempt Christians from the pangs and groan and suffering of this world?

God made provision. The rest is left to individuals . To accept or not. Suffering is a choice.. Either through lack of faith of by choice through sacrifice

Oyinprince: Dnt mind em,Jesus told us we wuld av challenges,bt he also sed dt he overcame d world...dey've refusd 2 use God's word in full,dey inteprete scriptures in a way 2feel ok wit deir situation

That's it.I think am done arguing with these blind guides.They are just mockers of the Faith.

Joagbaje:

God made provision. The rest is left to individuals . To accept or not. Suffering is a choice.. Either through lack of faith of by choice through sacrifice

Romans 8
22 We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.

23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God’s sons).

24 For in [this] hope we were saved.


The bible says the whole world is suffering and even we believers(Christian) groan in hope for the day of the Lord. Is that the same as what you propagate?

22 We know that ·everything God made [all creation] has been ·waiting until now in pain, like a woman ready to give birth [L groaning with labor pains until now]. 23 Not only the world, but we also ·have been waiting with pain inside us [L groan within ourselves]. We have the Spirit as the ·first part of God’s promise [L firstfruits; C as the first crops confirmed the future harvest, so the Spirit’s presence confirms believers’ final salvation]. So we are [eagerly] waiting for ·God to finish making us his own children [L our adoption], which means ·our bodies will be made free [L the redemption of our bodies]. 24 We were saved, ·and we have this hope

It is either the bible is wrong and you are right. This particular passage is totally against what the health and wealth people represent. It is like telling a woman that is about to give birth not to expect pain, you can actually kill her. But, when she knows she would go through pains, her mind is prepared for the phase.

Bidam: It is your christian liberty to pick what you want from scriptures.

Hmmm, pick what you want from the scriptures.. hmmm error. How could you make a statement like this! who would not pick what will please their flesh if we are to go into the scriptures to pick what we want to pick?

Bidam:
I remember sharing you my christian testimony about God healing me of hypertension,so should we discard the word of God on healing and wealth just because the apostle had a poor eyesight? That is not rightly dividing the word of truth if you ask me.The apostle Paul understood his calling and what he had to suffer for Christ which was part of the deal.Even when he prayed about the issue of his infirmity God said his grace was sufficient for him.

My brother, I keep banging it into your ears that your healing is a personal experience, it is not a standard for every believer. I might go through the same issue you went through and do the same thing you did and end up not getting the same result you had. That tells me one thing, God has different plans for everyone on the face of the earth. We can only trust the more sure word than any other person's personal experience.

As for Paul's sufferings, I can categorically tell you through the scriptures that he is not alone in the suffering. I am not saying we will all suffer the same things or like Paul, everyone's suffering is relative.
2 tim
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Bidam:

Like i said earlier the love of money is the root of evil.You re always on the internet discussing the gospel.Did you not use money to buy credit?Even if you claim that you worked hard for your money,is it not by the grace of God that you are strong and healthy? Is it by your own power? In the midst of the economic crunch and melt down i know of so many folks that lost their jobs and still God still prosper his children who believed and trust him. I lost my job 2 months back and to the glory of God i can confidently say that i have not for once begged for bread from anyone.It is God i tell you.God has supernaturally provided my basic needs one way or another through people.Funny enough i never told these people what i am going through.I told God about my needs and He provides them.In my opinion that is prosperity.

My brother , sorry about the job issue. The provision is not because of the prosperity gospel or anything like that. I wonder what you would say to an unbeliever that goes through the same experience you are going through or an unbeliever that did not get fired in the first place. One thing God assures his own is that we should not worry about what we will eat or wear because He knows we need these things. One thing God does with his own is teach us through disaster because no one really learn in comfort.

If I love my son, I will put him through some tough times so his character can form. If I want muscles, I go to the gym and put my body through rigorous pain to gain the muscles. If I need to diet, I deprive my flesh of what it craves for, similarly God takes his children through all sort to make them grow spiritually because the strength of God is made perfect in our weakness.

Bidam:
It is money that we use in buying cloths and providing the basic needs for our families. I don't believe in stupendous and excess wealth but that does not mean God does not give individuals wealth in the church for the furtherance of the Gospel.Please get my understanding on this and let's not argue about God's prosperity which is in scriptures.Or are you saying Deuteronomy 28 is not applicable to Christians?

Why are you talking like a carnal man (unbeliever). If God says you won't touch the money or the prosperity you go cry for every day, there is no formula that can change it. You would always just run round cycles and back to square one, why don't you focus on God. Even the great Apostle Paul prayed three times for a pain to go, God replied saying 'my grace is sufficient'.

DrummaBoy: I again see the need to define the prosperity gospel in the light of scriptures seeing how many people are bound to its shackles. I am convinced that the biggest challenge the gospel of Jesus faces in our time is not from outside: Islam, Boko Haram, T B Joshua, Guru Maharaji and such cults; the biggest challenge to the gospel is from within and they are two fold: The prosperity gospel and the holiness movement. The former glorifies a worldly riches like scripture never taught and the latter re-enacts Moses laws from were it is buried to bring believers into a legalistic lifestyle. What is distressing about this is that 80% of churches that call themselves "living" churches, find themselves in this two folds. I will limit my discuss here to what scripture says.

Thus the gospel of grace is introduce:



This is all the gospel we called to believe: Justification is by faith alone. Following this faith two things come to the believer an imputation of righteousness by faith and the blessing that come to our lives as we trust God for things of this life. No one exemplifies this better than Abraham. Abraham obtained righteousness by faith and obtained Isaac by faith: the former being a spiritual blessing and the latter a physical.





The believers life will continually reflect the two needs above. The need for right standing with God which can only come by faith and the need to have our needs in this life met: our Isaac, which will only come by faith.

But let us observe what follows Chapter 4, chapter 5:



I can still remember the evening I saw Romans 5:1, the peace that flood my heart when I understood that scripture. But it doesnt end there: We have access in grace by Jesus Christ. This is what we glory in and all that we glory in. The gospel of God's grace to sinful humanity.

But notice something: verse 3, we glory in tribulation: God permits difficulties in our lives and we glory in it. Why because this tribulation is for a purpose, it is to work patience in us, which leads to experience and experience begat hope and hope makes not ashamed.

Notice: the trend there is no believing the gospel of grace, and enjoying the blessing of righteousness, etc, without leading to tribulation. That is why the gospel of grace cannot be divorced from suffering.

This is what the prosperity teaching denies.

The prosperity gospel teaches one aspect of the gospel of grace and that is the receipt of Isaac; it doesn't teach that there is an impartation of righteousness by faith. It combines the legalism of the holiness movement with the Judaistic thinking of upholding laws to obtain blessings. They then use the anointing to give credence to their doctrine. Paul spoke a lot about these men but our prosperity preachers with their perchance for picking scriptures out of context, never discuss those scriptures. let see them:







And Peter has a word on them too:



There many other places in scriptures were the prosperity doctrine was spoken about. They do not preach the doctrine of our Lord and Savior: they preach a gospel that pleases the flesh - a demonic gospel.

Q E D. If they av conscience at all, this is more than enough to shut them up. 10million likes.

Bidam: That's it.I think am done arguing with these blind guides.They are just mockers of the Faith.

the day M.O.G repent Nigeria will change for good forever!

shdemidemi: Hmmm, pick what you want from the scriptures.. hmmm error. How could you make a statement like this! who would not pick what will please their flesh if we are to go into the scriptures to pick what we want to pick?

Yeah..It's your choice to choose poverty if you so wish.No Christian pleases the flesh by choosing life instead of death,since God has made us priest and kings.It is a matter of choice really.

My brother, I keep banging it into your ears that your healing is a personal experience,

And you keep repeating the same folly forgetting the fact that testimonies can build the faith of others.What God says to one still applies to all that trust in Him.

it is not a standard for every believer. I might go through the same issue you went through and do the same thing you did and end up not getting the same result you had. That tells me one thing, God has different plans for everyone on the face of the earth. We can only trust the more sure word than any other person's personal experience.

I wonder what is wrong with God healing people.Are you against divine healing that is clear in scriptures.Jesus healed,all the apostles of old healed people.So what is your problem with healing? Do you have a problem concerning your health that you took to God in prayers and it wasn't solved

As for Paul's sufferings, I can categorically tell you through the scriptures that he is not alone in the suffering. I am not saying we will all suffer the same things or like Paul, everyone's suffering is relative.

Oh,just shut up! and listen to yourself.From your previous post you never put it this way. If you insist suffering is mandatory for all believers why not flip the other side of the coin and say prosperity is also mandatory for all believers Your logic is twisted here.

2 tim
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

And what has this scripture got to do with sufferings of believers.Paul was narrating his ordeal for the sake of the gospel,why not quote also where Paul was narrating his enjoyment like where Paul says I've learned the secret of facing plenty
and also where he was telling timothy that God richly gives us everything to enjoy

My brother , sorry about the job issue.

I don't need your pity really. i have moved on with life.I am just telling you since this is an anonymous forum.

The provision is not because of the prosperity gospel or anything like that.

There is nothing like prosperity gospel like i told you earlier you guys just coined that word to criticize pastors and televangelist who preach prosperity from a biblical point of view.

I wonder what you would say to an unbeliever that goes through the same experience you are going through or an unbeliever

I would preach Christ to the unsaved and tell him to trust God for a job, i have done that on some occasions and testimonies abound concerning that. that did not get fired in the first place.

One thing God assures his own is that we should not worry about what we will eat or wear because He knows we need these things. One thing God does with his own is teach us through disaster because no one really learn in comfort.

Did you see me saying a contrary thing concerning passing affliction are but for a moment?

If I love my son, I will put him through some tough times so his character can form. If I want muscles, I go to the gym and put my body through rigorous pain to gain the muscles. If I need to diet, I deprive my flesh of what it craves for, similarly God takes his children through all sort to make them grow spiritually.

I wonder what makes you think people only preach prosperity only without telling Christians that there a trials, test of faith and challenges they will go through.There is a balance in scriptures really. I am not saying there are others that don't go the extreme which is wrong. But to categorically come here and say that God's will is poverty and NOT prosperity for his children is not only preposterous but a demonic doctrine from the pit of hell.

If God says you won't touch the money or the prosperity you go cry for every day, there is no formula that can change it. You would always just run round cycles and back to square one, why don't you focus on God. Even the great Apostle Paul prayed three times for a pain to go, God replied saying 'my grace is sufficient'.

You sir, are a hypocrite because i don't understand what you are talking about here.Tell us how you have suffered for the gospel sake.Where you're now,was it where you were 10yrs back? Has God not been faithful to you? Has God not blessed you beyond your wildest dreams and imaginations?Do you still leave in rented apartments? Don't you have a car, a wife, kids and a well paying job? Why put a yoke of bondage on the brethren?