KidStranglehold:

And where is your proof that he is not? Most Libyan Tuaregs don't look like him?? What?? Libyan Tuaregs are seen as black in Libyan and are even discriminated against in Libya. But I wanna get to the main point.

Again like I said Tuaregs are likely descendants of Garamantes especially those from Libya. Guess what? The Ancient Garamantes were from Libya like those Libyan Tuaregs.

The best modern representatives of the Garamantes would be the people who live in their territory today.


Ghadames


Tuareg
[img]http://4.bp..com/-feh9zIeovuU/TYdja9-HwDI/AAAAAAAAEh8/TeYmoHMi3I8/s400/5543307177_9936a9c49d_b.jpg[/img]
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2rMkrEogvdTtt-wVwK79RvOYLDz8XG8gESZOjMLoBG8gCisZQ[/img]


Toubou


As for the physical appearance of the Garamantes themselves, we do have descriptions from Greco-Roman authors as cited by Snowden:

You see what you did here?

You yourself decided that Toaureg are descended from these Garamantes (which btw I highly doubt as Tuareg have a nomadic culture that spans millenia while these Garmantes seem to be Northern Coastal dwellers.


You then started justifying their ethiopianness and finally applied it on the Tuareg.

Radoillo:

In commercial quantity? Mined from ancient times? Were the Awujale and his royal retinue of old decked out in gold? Were there enough gold in the land for an Ijebu queen to hand out a gift of 14 metric tons of gold?

There are gold deposit in Ijebu land

PAGAN 9JA:



You see what you did here?

You yourself decided that Toaureg are descended from these Garamantes (which btw I highly doubt as Tuareg have a nomadic culture that spans millenia while these Garmantes seem to be Northern Coastal dwellers.


You then started justifying their ethiopianness and finally applied it on the Tuareg.

1. After the fall of the Garamente civilization, some of the people became nomads. Similar to what happened with Ancient Nubia/Christian Nubia. The Garamentes were in NO SHAPE OR FORM COASTAL DWELLERS. The Civilization was in the Sahara where the Tuaregs are from...
2. Its not me who decided this but historians.
3. Ethiopian is a Greek word that means black. The modern state of Ethiopia only took the word during the 70s.

I'm going to bed right now. I'll discuss this later.

Kid strange.. I can look at people and tell you their race, now my question for you, what tribe are you from

shymexx:

How shut the fvck up and go focus on your Igbo history? I sure didn't see "Igbo" on the thread and what's bad in people exploring their origins?

And make sure you get a refund from whoever taught your history because your brain is oversaturated with pure junk. If you don't know what timeline signifies in history and who the former inhabitants of the whole middle east were, before admixture led to the creation of the Arab ethnicity - I can't help you.

Please shut the door on your way out.

Something is wrong with you people,did he curse you,why dont you check up the dictionary meaning of AFROCENTIST,before opening your big gutter called mouth and bringing IGBO out of that your useless mouth.Ewu

Ijebu's make ijebu garri....end of.

Jews are Ibos.

Malakh: Kid strange you are really loosing it, the history of human race is in the Bible, read Genesis 10

Were do u put China and other east Asians?

Were do Native Americans fit in

Where do Australians and Africans below the Sahara fit in??

Genesis 10 is not reliable

shymexx:

How shut the fvck up and go focus on your Igbo history? I sure didn't see "Igbo" on the thread and what's bad in people exploring their origins?

And make sure you get a refund from whoever taught your history because your brain is oversaturated with pure junk. If you don't know what timeline signifies in history and who the former inhabitants of the whole middle east were, before admixture led to the creation of the Arab ethnicity - I can't help you.

Please shut the door on your way out.

what has igbo got to do with his statement?

Following.

edited.

ladionline: Perfect, Obanta is identical with Olode. OBA ONI ITA, That in mainstream yoruba would be BATA. OLODE is ONI ODE or ONI ITA. Ode is a variant of ITA. Now check this split: O bu.ru bi 'AJE' OTA. The ancient Yoruba were familiar with Aje, a shrew merchant. Aje means 'wayfaring' here. BTW, bata is an antonym of bara. BATA means sellers' consult, while BARA means buyers' consult. OBANTA is 'prime seller' while OBARA means 'prime buyer'.

I enjoyed ur analysis.

KidStranglehold:

1. After the fall of the Garamente civilization, some of the people became nomads. Similar to what happened with Ancient Nubia/Christian Nubia. The Garamentes were in NO SHAPE OR FORM COASTAL DWELLERS. The Civilization was in the Sahara where the Tuaregs are from...
2. Its not me who decided this but historians.
3. Ethiopian is a Greek word that means black. The modern state of Ethiopia only took the word during the 70s.

I'm going to bed right now. I'll discuss this later.

I believe this is all false.

1. The Tuareg were already existing as a people before the fall of the Garamante civilization. Queen Tin Hinan, who united the Tuareg tribes, lived around the 4th century, while the Garamante civilization collapsed around 700 A.D.

so it is impossible that the Tuareg came into existence after the Garamante civilization. Added to that, I find it unconventional and impossible that a civilized people would return to a tribal structure.

Like all ethnic groups , I believe the Tuareg have existed for millenia, from much ancient roots than some small Agricultural Kingdom.

2.The location of Fezzan is quite far when compared to the main Tuareg homelands centered around the Ahaggar. Also this place is very close to other settled Berber areas. It is almost on the outskirts of the Sahara.

3.It is foolish and not plausible for a settled, civilized people to leave their abundant lifestyle and return to a state of nomadism and encounter the harsh life of the desert. It is supposed to be the opposite.

Like how, the Bedu have started to settle down in Arabia, in the same manner.

Human ancestors started out as nomads and settled down in civilizations, not the opposite.

4. What historians? Provide me with links. and how did they arrive to this conclusion? Just because they are historians, they cant always be right.

5.Again this is inconclusive since you have not yet fully proved the descent of the Tuareg from the Garamantes. Also black has varying hues. To the fair skinned Greeks, even brown/sand-coloured would seem distinctly "Ethiopian".

KidStranglehold:

Where in my post did I say such a thing? Stop projection. You have no argument which is why you're agreeing with me now that EVERY person is descendant of those OOA migrates. Yes that is true...But MUTATIONS happen and you or Shymexx have not posted me a study which shows those black Asians or pacific Islanders carry any African genes. Until you do that both of you guys points are moot.

I know its hard for you to swallow, but those Pacific Islanders and Asian Negritos are genetically DISTANT from Africans.
[img]http://erectuswalksamongst.us/Images/Figure%207-2.GIF[/img]

Of course you're going to be denial about it, but until you show me a study that states otherwise all your claims are irrelevant.

Genetically distant or not, they are genetically related to Africans. Their ancestors were Africans. That's all we need to know. If the Africans migrated there 40,000 years ago, as opposed to 5,000 years ago, all that tells us is that our African ancestors were sufficiently advanced 40,000 years ago to embark on cross continental exploration, including intercontinental seafaring.

shymexx:

Not disputing that. However, I'm just alluding to Ijebu history/ancestry and how it has no connection with Oduduwa. I was raised to be Yoruba. But there are tons of Ijebu's out there who don't believe that they're Yoruba. They might be in the minority, however, they also have a right to explore their ancestry. Since everything about the origins of all the ethnic groups in Nigeria is inconclusive. We all know there was no one in present-day Nigeria, during pre-historic times. So where did all these people migrate from?

Also, you and I can't deny the fact that the Ijebu's are the most hated group among Yoruba's by other Yoruba subgroups. Despite being at the forefront of the Yoruba identity in post-colonial Nigeria. So if certain people feel the need to get a different identity - why can't you let them do that? Heck, even Awolowo said he was Ijebu before he became Yoruba because of the hate.

what do u mean?

Back.

I've found an alternative picture for the kingdom of kush. It extended across the red sea deep into the Arabian peninsula. When dealing with history, please make sure you stick to timeline, due to the different migration waves.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J1g7pxIrctQC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=the+kingdom+of+kush+in+arabian+peninsula&source=bl&ots=itKBsckfVA&sig=SXg05PQRP72kX0M2fujvS02ZMR8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UXiQUsmIOenE0QWJkICIBQ&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=the%20kingdom%20of%20kush%20in%20arabian%20peninsula&f=false

omoodeogere: what do u mean?

What did you read?

WhoDeyThere: I enjoyed ur analysis.

Thanks brother, its not 'all labour lost' eventually. Imagine where we are to depend on science to tell us our origin? Eh! This thread is a witness to what you must expect in that respect. The historian works with linguists and other social scientists and not necessarily core scientists and Anthropologists coming out of their failed hunting for fossils and skeletons and excavation of 'hominids' in Serranghatti.

Our pride disguised or enmeshed in knowledge, our problems.

For your sake and others, I am going to put the post in order, I typed the first one in a haste in transit on a small phone.

Obanta is identical with Olode. Obanta is compressed form of "OBA ONI ITA", That in mainstream Yoruba means "King, owner of the field", or "king as (to) selling." Soon, I will dwell on ita as field or selling, so do not be surprise if I do so, I am switching between the two meaning of an ambiguous word, Ota or Ita.

The Yoruba has "implicative" and "applicative" meaning for historic words. Ijebu is implicative of sea faring, Ajebu is applicative of the sea farer. Iwori is implicative of river faring, Awori is applicative to river farers. As such, Ita (selling) has to do with Ota (seller). The main word is Ta, meaning, sell. Keep all these aside.

The mainstream or peer vocabulary in History closest to this OBANTA idea in mainstream Yoruba would be[i] BATA[/i]. As a (personal) rule, you or I do not need to shop outside Yoruba for word to demystify another Yoruba word, so that the story can be (1) home made or (2) be grown from board spectrum of Yoruba history from various blocs, or (3) so we might find meaning to some common radical words with meaning shrouded in obscurity. Now let get back to class.

Obanta has the properties of BATA.

OLODE is "ONI ODE" meaning "owner of the field" or "ONI ITA" which implies the same thing as ONI ODE or OLODE. Oni is a variant of OONI, meaning, "the having" or "the owning", etymologically. Ode is a variant of ITA. For this, ODE is the commodity of sales at the said time.

Now check this split: O bu.ru bi 'AJE' OTA. we have found an example of the term Aje, as found in combination Ajebu stand on its own. Thus, Aje is a "detachee" from Ajebu. How so? The 'linguist' ancestors has lifted the prefix Aje found in Ajebu and deploy this to describe Ota. Therefore, Aje also has to do with Ota or Ajebu has to do with OLOTA.

That's why I went for OLOTA ODO or ARODEDE-WOMI or WOMI as variant of IJEBU at the beginning of the post.

Meaning, Aje can stand on its own as the wayfarer. Aje has been haunting the Yoruba because they have lost grip with their history somewhere. Meanwhile, Aje is also Yoruba god of wealth. That's favourable historic recorning of the same matriarch.

If we have a matriarch known as Aje in Yoruba (we do), then she was also OBA ITA (consider AJE OTA) to the seller, or OBARA to the spectators in the field buying business. Now expect that the words has to be "aesthetized" in some ways without losing their connections with the De-facto in history across Yorubaland, since we are talking history here, and not just Ijebu history.

lingual aesthetics


Now you know that the Yoruba gave us BARA often, i.e. BARA-petu, or more aptly, Bara in form of Obara. We don't know what it means. However, Obara is identical with Sango. We also have a place call IBARA in Abeokuta. Obara, Ibara. we should have the king's title as Obara of Ibara, so to say. The fact that BARA means "king of Buyers" require you to look deeper into who the king of buyers could be buying from.

And that takes you to BATA. Well the memorial of BATA is a kind of DRUM in Yoruba which connects with Sango. The proverb is given "oju boro ko ni Sango fi feran Bata" I do not know what that means anyway. Let's guess: perhaps its not easy the love between two merchants that depend on one another in this kind of field business.

Then the meaning of the proverb is given, "Sango loved BATA with passion", Sango rely on continuous patronage of BATA for fields. Now going through the waters was the matriarch buying field from explorers (Awori, or river farers). The matriarch is better known as Sango or OBARA, ONIBARA or BARA.

omoodeogere: what do u mean?

He is confused.

Radoillo: So I was just wondering if there's any evidence that the Jebusites of Palestine were black.

Yes, jebusites being part of the canaanit family are black(brown) just like you and me.There is an aspect of canaan outside land of canaan which is their language known as kinaana andalso a name of a group of family, it is the language of phonecians some people that speak the language where said to have bein found as far as arabian area (saudi/yemen) and the present day groups that trece their origin to ancient canaan are found in present day countrie syria jordan palestine/isreal and they are black(brown).

PAGAN 9JA:


I believe this is all false.

1. The Tuareg were already existing as a people before the fall of the Garamante civilization. Queen Tin Hinan, who united the Tuareg tribes, lived around the 4th century, while the Garamante civilization collapsed around 700 A.D.

Wrong...The Garamentes fell around the 5th century. The around the same time as Tin Hinan.

http://www.temehu.com/Cities_sites/germa.htm

Perhaps one of the best achievement of the Garamantians, namely their agricultural genius, was said to have brought their downfall. The hundreds of underground channels, known as foggara, which were used to direct water from underground reserves to their farms, were said to have ultimately drained underground reserves. But, according to other sources, the disappearance of the Garamantes around the fifth century coincides more with the invasions than with the drying up of underground reserves.

Also no one even really knows the date of her.

A 4th to 5th century date is consistent with carbon dating of the wooden bed and also with the style of pottery and other tomb furniture.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Hinan

PAGAN 9JA:

so it is impossible that the Tuareg came into existence after the Garamante civilization. Added to that, I find it unconventional and impossible that a civilized people would return to a tribal structure.

Again the same thing happened with the Nubians when their kingdom fell and the area started drying up more and more. Originally there were no nomads in that area because it wasn't needed. Who said Nomadic is tribal? Again like I said the Garamentes were pushed out through invasions and the drying up. Remember the Garamentes civilization was in the area of the Sahara. So nomadic lifestyle was needed to survive. Also I forgot to mention that despite the Garamantes living in adequate cities, many Garamantes endured as nomads against Roman towns. Also the Romans referred to them as barbaric nomads. Dude you act like if a civilizations were to fall by destruction that there suppose to just magically just come right back up. I know this may be a silly comparison but still. Say a nuclear attack hits most of America, destroying America as a country and it no longer having a government and people must depend on their own for their survival. What would happen? People would start searching for food and other needs similar to how what happened with the Garamentes and Nubians.

PAGAN 9JA:

Like all ethnic groups , I believe the Tuareg have existed for millenia, from much ancient roots than some small Agricultural Kingdom.

1. The Garamentes weren't a small Agricultural kingdom
2. Not all were agriculturalist but also nomads.

PAGAN 9JA:

2.The location of Fezzan is quite far when compared to the main Tuareg homelands centered around the Ahaggar. Also this place is very close to other settled Berber areas. It is almost on the outskirts of the Sahara.

How can we even have a fixed view that their homeland was Ahagger? When it is said that Tuaregs(like most Berbers) came from the east.
In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels;[4] (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5])

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language

PAGAN 9JA:

3.It is foolish and not plausible for a settled, civilized people to leave their abundant lifestyle and return to a state of nomadism and encounter the harsh life of the desert. It is supposed to be the opposite.

Already explained the bolded...Read other replies.

As for the red...Dude...The Garamentes kingdom was in the heart of the sahara and when it started drying up.

PAGAN 9JA:

Like how, the Bedu have started to settle down in Arabia, in the same manner.

Human ancestors started out as nomads and settled down in civilizations, not the opposite.

Actually human ancestors started out as hunter gatherers.

PAGAN 9JA:

4. What historians? Provide me with links. and how did they arrive to this conclusion? Just because they are historians, they cant always be right.

Okay...

The Garamantes are widely considered as the direct ancestors of the eastern Tuaregs of the Sahara and Niger.
http://www.temehu.com/Cities_sites/germa.htm

Since Prehistoric times Tuareg peoples: the Garamantes have been organising caravans for trading across the Sahara desert. The caravan in Niger from around Agadez to Fachi and Bilma is called in Tamashek: Tarakaft or Taghlamt and the one in Mali from Timbuktu to Taoudenni Azalay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#Economy

The Tuaregs were first mentioned by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who spoke of a group known as the Garamantes living in the Fezzan region of southwest Libya that operated trans-Saharan trade routes, connecting the heart of Africa to the North African coast. It is now believed that he was speaking of the Tuareg.

http://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-you/genetics-101/people-of-the-veil-new-study-reveals-clues-to-origins-of-the-nomadic-tuaregs/

Reputedly of Berber descent, the language of the Tuareg is Tamachek, with their own script known as Tifinagh, thought to have ancient Libyan roots.

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/tuareg/

PAGAN 9JA:

5.Again this is inconclusive since you have not yet fully proved the descent of the Tuareg from the Garamantes. Also black has varying hues. To the fair skinned Greeks, even brown/sand-coloured would seem distinctly "Ethiopian".

1. I believe we already have....

2. No...The Greeks referred to people who ere extremely dark as black and with woolly hair. But mostly those who were burnt skin which Ethiopian meant.

Geographical knowledge did not extend south of the Sahara, and the only parts of "black Africa" known to the ancient Greeks were East Africa including the Horn of Africa. Αἰθίοψ (Aithiops), meaning "burnt-face", was used as the term for black African since the time of Homer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopia

The Greeks referred to the Garamantes as Ethiopians.

ROSSIKE: Genetically distant or not, they are genetically related to Africans. Their ancestors were Africans. That's all we need to know. If the Africans migrated there 40,000 years ago, as opposed to 5,000 years ago, all that tells us is that our African ancestors were sufficiently advanced 40,000 years ago to embark on cross continental exploration, including intercontinental seafaring.

Yeah same thing with Europeans, East Asians, South Asians, Southeast Asians, Middle Easterners,etc,etc. Basically every human on this planet.

Your point?

shymexx: Back.

I've found an alternative picture for the kingdom of kush. It extended across the red sea deep into the Arabian peninsula. When dealing with history, please make sure you stick to timeline, due to the different migration waves.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J1g7pxIrctQC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=the+kingdom+of+kush+in+arabian+peninsula&source=bl&ots=itKBsckfVA&sig=SXg05PQRP72kX0M2fujvS02ZMR8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UXiQUsmIOenE0QWJkICIBQ&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=the%20kingdom%20of%20kush%20in%20arabian%20peninsula&f=false

Your source or your map does not even state that Kush occupied Arabia. Again theres no that states that. Your source actually states that it was the Axum empire that controlled Southern Arabia.

What worse is that they said the Axum empire was founded by people who migrated from Arabia across the red sea from a kingdom called the Sons of Seba and was not a result of Africans themselves. Try reading your sources please.

obanta wasn't even their leaders real name but ogborogan and his nephew.

His nephew established mobalufon in honor of his father agbo-iwa who died on the way from Sudan.

Mobalufon??....doesn't it have something to do wit Obalufon(3rd ooni of Ife? Could be omo-obalufufon( child of Obalufon) meaning that the whole Sudan claim is a lie

^^Fact. The Ijebus were already on ground before the coming of the Oba nta -- king is outside-- as divined. The king present on the stool then, had to abdicate (can't recall his name now). The Obanta was the third king, the first being his maternal grandfather, Olu-Iwa. Thus, through intermarriage and adsorption, the real inhabitants of the area before that Obanta bearing wave of migration have gone extinct. Some of them had to move to the outskirts of the town (my memory fails me once more) because they couldn't face the superior civilization of these migrants from Ile-ife.

It is well. OP carry on, I am never against "academic" exercise.

Nicely set. This source happens to support my knowledge of Ijebu history. BTW, My grand mother's royalty from Odo-Esa

The Ijebu History

A version of oral history claimed that some sixty Olisa had reigned in Ijebu-Ode. But their names and time are lost to memory, save a few. And even in the few, some dates are speculative as some records date same event some one hundred years apart.

Nevertheless, some important historical facts feature respectively in the various versions of oral history of the Olisa. All version of oral history we encountered claimed that OLISA, a shorthand version of OLU OF ISA was an oba in his native home, ISA, located variously around Imesi in Ekiti. He responded to persuasion and joined the entourage of Ajogun or Ogboroganda who later ascended the throne as Oba -nta, the third Awujale of Ijebu in succession to Oshi who had to abdicate, and Olu-Iwa, Ajagun’s maternal grandfather and the acknowledged progenitor of the Ijebus. It is thus evident that the dating of OLISA in history is closely related to the dating of the Awujale from the immigration of Obanta and his enctourage from Ile-Ife.

THE EARLY TIMES

Ijebu oral history has it that the first OLISA was originally Olu of Isa, Isa then a town or settlement near or within the present township of Imesi in Ekiti. This is interpreted to mean Oke-Imesi in Ekiti division of Ondo State or is it Imesi Ile near Ilesha in Obokun Local Governement area of Osun State, or possibly Imesi-Ekiti (also known as Imesi-Lasigidi). Of course all three, Imesi-Ile, Oke-Imesi and Imesi-Lasigidi are sister towns in close proximity and founded and occupied by the same set of people within contemporary oral history. Oral history further has it that for many of his last years at Isa. Olu’Isa was disturbed by a persistent annual revelation by the Ifa oracle of the imminence of a “relocation” which was interested to mean that a moment in history was imminent when he and his people of Isa would be physically uprooted from Isa and resettled
somewhere else. It was also construed to mean the possibility of a war ravaging Isa, or an early demise of Olu’Isa, or at worst, his exit from rulership of Isa, all of which would be a great calamity if they happened, and against which several ritualistic sacrifices were made. Meanwhile at Ile-Ife, a prince had been born to Oduduwa. His name Ogboroganda. His mother is Gborowo, the daughter of Ilu-Iwa; Olu Iwa the acknowledged progenitor of the Ijebus. History has it that Olu-Iwa passed through Ile-Ife during his journey from Eaddai in upper sudan and was indeed a guest of Oduduwa, also of the same Nubina stoke,for a brief spell. His entourage included Gborowo,his grown-up daugher,for whom Oduduwa took a fancy.And when time came for Olu-Iwa to continue his journey and partly in gratituted for Oduduwa’s hospitality and in acknowledgment of the perceived developing interest in Gborowo,Olu-Iwa gave his daughter in marriage was Ogboroganda who later led a wave of migrants but she reportedly took ill and in fact died on the journey, and her remains were laid to rest on the bank of river osun. Hence, to this day, Ijebu have an annual worship of Osun-Gborowo in commemoration of this historical event.

The ogboroganda led migrant reportedly passed through Isa (Imesi) where Ogboroganda confronted Olu. Isa and requested his company on the journey. He willingly gave his consent, packed bag and baggage, and with a retinue of his subjects including his mother and brothers. Jibeyin joined the wave of migrants. He distinguished himself as a brave warrior and leader all through the journey. Two of his distinguished act of bravery are well remembered by the Ijebu oral historians. The entourage has to pass through an area called IGBO but was refused passage by Olu-Igbo or Olu of Igbo. In irrtation at this affront Olu ‘isa,sought and received Ogboroganda’s permission to do battle with Olu’Igbo whom he conquered, and in fact be headed with his royal sword survives till this day and is now in the safe custody of the new Olisa Ademokun II. The Igbo people were held in bondage and the severed head of Olu’Igbo was potted and carried on the journey by Aka, the then pregnant wife of Olu’Igbo. Aka was delivered of a baby boy shortly after the entourage entered Ijebu Ode and Ogboroganda directed that the potted head of Olu’Igbo be buried at the site of this delivery. The site was then refreed to as “Ibi Aka ru Igbo de” (The point to which Aka carried Olu’Igbo’s head) which by irregular abbreviation and mutilation is now the famous “IKANIGBO” ward in Iwade Quarters of Ijebu-Ode. The Igbo immigrants settled in this ward and some of their descendants several centuries later migrated to Yemule area of Porogun Quarters and later to beyond Okomayan river near Okun-Owa. This group was reported to have further migrated to the Offin area of Sagamu in Ijebu-Remo. Their leader in
the new location bears the title of “Akarigbo” apparently a corruption of “Akarigbo”.

The second often retold act of bravery of Olu’Isa occurred at ibu, a location somewhere in the Ijebu waterside, where the entourage had a brief stopover. Suddenly and inexplicably an eclipse occurred converting daytime to a dark gloomy night, an event that engendered fear and anxiety. As was then custom, the Ifa oracle was consulted and it directed them to conduct a search of the neighboring forest where they would find a deity requiring propitiation. The Olu’Isa volunteered to lead the search party, handpicked followers, drew his sword, and the search commenced in earnest.

After a length search, they stumbled on two objects which Ifa oracle confirmed as the deities. On further enquiring by divination the deities requested to be clothed in Leopard skin, and to accompany the entourage. These wishes were, and thus emerged the “Ako” and “Obi” Ojowu deities residing at Oyingbo and Odo-Esa wards of Ijebu Ode respectively and are till today worshiped annually as of yore. The hunter who furnished the Leopard skin and was later pressed into further services as the carrier of the two deities was designated as the official worshiper of the deities and put in care of an Old woman the Erelu at Odo esa. Thus began the office of Olawa Ojuwu at Odo-Esa ward of Ijebu Ode.

http://ijebuifeculture..com/2011/09/ijebu-history.html?m=1

KidStranglehold:
Your source or your map does not even state that Kush occupied Arabia. Again theres no that states that. Your source actually states that it was the Axum empire that controlled Southern Arabia.

What worse is that they said the Axum empire was founded by people who migrated from Arabia across the red sea from a kingdom called the Sons of Seba and was not a result of Africans themselves. Try reading your sources please.

Bruv, can you read? I provided the map just to show the circle of influence of the Kush kingdom, and how its trading extended from East and Central Africa - to the Arabian peninsula and India. And that was because you asked for it. The source didn't really get too deep into Kush kingdom. So stop making things up.

The Axum Empire started after the decline of Kush. Deal with the timeline of when Kush reigned supreme and tell me what other kingdoms existed in the whole of the present day middle east (Palestinian homeland in this context). Bear in mind that there were no Arabs or Canaanites/Phoenicians at that point in history. And if we cut present day Syria and Iraq out of the picture and focus solely on Palestinian homeland, the home of the Canaanites - tell me how those black people would be genetically different from Africans.

The only other records of a different people at that point in history were the Hyskos and everyone knows the Hyskos were a caucasoid race and they migrated from farther down the Asian sub-continent.

PS: the debate is about the genetics of the black people who occupied Palestinian homeland at that point in history to know if they were black Africans or not. Don't twist it.

shymexx:

Bruv, can you read? I provided the map just to show the circle of influence of the Kush kingdom, and how its trading extended from East and Central Africa - to the Arabian peninsula and India. And that was because you asked for it. The source didn't really get too deep into Kush kingdom. So stop making things up.

The Axum Empire started after the decline of Kush. Deal with the timeline of when Kush reigned supreme and tell me what other kingdoms existed in the whole of the present day middle east (Palestinian homeland in this context). Bear in mind that there were no Arabs or Canaanites/Phoenicians at that point in history. And if we cut present day Syria and Iraq out of the picture and focus solely on Palestinian homeland, the home of the Canaanites - tell me how those black people would be genetically different from Africans.

The only other records of a different people at that point in history were the Hyskos and everyone knows the Hyskos were a caucasoid race and they migrated from farther down the Asian sub-continent.

PS: the debate is about the genetics of the black people who occupied Palestinian homeland at that point in history to know if they were black Africans or not. Don't twist it.

Dude you clearly said Kush extended across the Red sea and into

I've found an alternative picture for the kingdom of kush. It extended across the red sea deep into the Arabian peninsula. When dealing with history, please make sure you stick to timeline, due to the different migration waves.

By saying extending , I come to the conclusion that the Kingdom occupied parts of Arabia, when no historic sources state such things or agree with your claims. Nowhere did you ever mention trade...Unless you edited your post. Yes I clearly read the map and the source and none of it agrees with what you're saying. Not trying to be rude, but you're backtracking from some of your claims. I thought you said there were Africans native to Arabia? Now your saying lets only focus on black people in Palestinian? I'm not twisting anything...You seem to not be able to grasp that black is not limited to Africa just like white is not limited to Europe. I asked you to consult a PEER REVIEWED genetic study to back up your claims. Yes Black Africans have occupied Palestine, but it was the Ancient Egyptians.

And also how can you just cut out the Asiatics? Didn't you read my sources with the Ancient Egyptians warring with the Asiatics? There have been Asiatics like the Hyksos and others in the Levant since the Middle/New kingdom of Ancient Egyptian. Around that time there was no Kush Kingdom.

olu_kenzo :
^^Fact. The Ijebus were already on ground before the coming of the Oba nta -- king is outside-- as divined. The king present on the stool then, had to abdicate (can't recall his name now). The Obanta was the third king, the first being his maternal grandfather, Olu-Iwa. Thus, through intermarriage and adsorption, the real inhabitants of the area before that Obanta bearing wave of migration have gone extinct. Some of them had to move to the outskirts of the town (my memory fails me once more) because they couldn't face the superior civilization of these migrants from Ile-ife.

It is well. OP carry on, I am never against "academic" exercise.

Olu-iwa I thought it was Oba ijasi.
Wat I heard was
The 1st was Oba Ijasi who left the throne for Obanta( king outside).
The 2nd was of course obanta(ogboroganda) and his nephew who had previously stayed in Ife

The indigenes lived peacefully wit the new and large imigrates from Ife(Sudan earlier)

KidStranglehold:

Yeah same thing with Europeans, East Asians, South Asians, Southeast Asians, Middle Easterners,etc,etc. Basically every human on this planet.

Your point?

The point is you stated this earlier:

''As for West Asia AKA the Middle East...The ORIGINAL inhabitants were black and looked black. But were they genetically related to Africans? Most likely not...They were most likely early black Asians like the Andaman Islanders who look black but are NOT related to Africans.''

The Out of Africa theory does not recognize any people as being ''genetically unrelated to Africans'' or ''not related to Africans''.

Why I drew attention to your wording here is because you stand the risk of sounding like a Not Out of Africa theorist. (You do realize that there are many scholars who propose the theory of independent emergence of modern man in Asia?)

lachimdummaga: Yes, jebusites being part of the canaanit family are black(brown) just like you and me.There is an aspect of canaan outside land of canaan which is their language known as kinaana andalso a name of a group of family, it is the language of phonecians some people that speak the language where said to have bein found as far as arabian area (saudi/yemen) and the present day groups that trece their origin to ancient canaan are found in present day countrie syria jordan palestine/isreal and they are black(brown).

Someone i know has evolve, macof, take note!

shymexx:

Bruv, can you read? I provided the map just to show the circle of influence of the Kush kingdom, and how its trading extended from East and Central Africa - to the Arabian peninsula and India. And that was because you asked for it. The source didn't really get too deep into Kush kingdom. So stop making things up.

The Axum Empire started after the decline of Kush. Deal with the timeline of when Kush reigned supreme and tell me what other kingdoms existed in the whole of the present day middle east (Palestinian homeland in this context). Bear in mind that there were no Arabs or Canaanites/Phoenicians at that point in history. And if we cut present day Syria and Iraq out of the picture and focus solely on Palestinian homeland, the home of the Canaanites - tell me how those black people would be genetically different from Africans.

The only other records of a different people at that point in history were the Hyskos and everyone knows the Hyskos were a caucasoid race and they migrated from farther down the Asian sub-continent.

PS: the debate is about the genetics of the black people who occupied Palestinian homeland at that point in history to know if they were black Africans or not. Don't twist it.

I think there's a chronology problem with the bolded.

The kingdom of Kush rose about the year 1000BC (rough dating) and did not conquer Egypt until the 700s BC (There was an older kingdom in that area, though, called Kerma, but I don't think that's what we are discussing). There were plenty of empires in 'the Middle East' before and during that time...Hittite Empire, Kassite Empire, Assyrian Empire.

It's also not accurate that there were no Phoenicians during the time of Kush's greatness. Phoenician civilization developed around Byblos around 1200BC. Phoenicians established the colony of Carthage probably before Kush conquered Egypt.

macof:

Olu-iwa I thought it was Oba ijasi.
Wat I heard was
The 1st was Oba Ijasi who left the thrown for Obanta( king outside).
The 2nd was of course obanta(ogboroganda) and his nephew

Yes Olu-iwa, the widely acknowledged progenitor of the Ijebus.

Olu-Iwa had left the stool before Obanta arrived. Read the article immediately after the post you quoted.