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Your Favorite Java IDE? - Programming (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 1:29am On Dec 22, 2013
@jeff
an ide= compiler,editor,debuggr
+ some bells and whistles all in one.

You meet anoda programmer who has:
compiler, debugger,editor in different boxes.

And you conclude tht the person without the tools in one box is unprofessional?
Javadctr says he's out of civilization.
Can you both make this statement on an international forum and retain any respect?
How dyu reasonably arrive at this conclusions?
Besides not being able to intelligently justify your statemnts.
You mistake wat a debugger is 4 the tool you see on ur ide not the concept it represents thn u preachg international standards to me.
Thnk b4 u remark. There may b international viewrs of this threads and such asinine remarks as produced by you and the other fellow isnt creatg a good impression of us.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 2:31am On Dec 22, 2013
lordZOUGA:
Why do you prefer to use Notepad++ over say Netbeans or Eclipse?

nice question.but why is not usg an ide considered odd?
Tell me.
Cuz i dnt feel odd usg my tools.
I graduated from plain old windows notepad and programmg in it was hellish - hunting for line number of compiler error wen the editor has no line numberg facility!
But with notepad++ i dnt feel like i'm straing myself.
Convenience,ease,habit.
I've been with it since 2007.
Close to the machine light weight dev. Latest notepad++ is under 8mb. Eclipse and netbeans are gloriously large memory drinks.

Ides are prescriptve. E.g in notepad i type a class and package name unconsciously with netbeans eclipse i go thru this windws askg me if i want to make the class public main and all tht and i'm wonderg wat silliness is all tht.
Cus i cant stand seeing the netbeans progress bar load.
Cuz the drop dwn boxes and intellisense of eclipse netbeans are negligible to me.
Bracket completions , you dnt think abt tht when crankg out ur thots
cuz wen i'm coding i want the entire screen to b taken up with my source code, not one middle windw in a see of windows for source.
Cuz source editg is where d bulk of d wrk is and notepad++ does a far better job thn eclipse,netbeans,
notepad++ has a function list plugin for listg methods in a class so i can jump to it.and is extensible via plugins (though i dnt download them.)
Cuz i dnt check out or check in code a lot while wrkg makg the inbuilt svn clients redundant and i dnt use junit makig it redundant.
And i have source control clients available. Not an issue.
Cuz i dnt thnk i'm wrse off and feel very prodctve with my tools.
Cuz i write tools to make my dev life easier and more like wat i want instead of d other way round.

Bascally im comfortable and prdctve with it.
But i am nt against the ides.i hav them and hav been downloadg them since 2009 just not crazy over them.
In an active month i write thousnds of lines of code ( a few thousands) and my tools and culture hav held up.
I had plans on explorg them ides but codg a project always beckons or high disinterest turns me off. But the gui builder of netbeans is really compelling and eclipse is essential fr andriod dev outside tht ive not sold on them.
Bascally i dnt see wat the ide's giv me thts so awesomely different i have to switch.
Nada. I'm not alive to please nobody.
I lov the blinkg black screen.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 2:33am On Dec 22, 2013
elvis10ten: blah blah blah blah. i remember a video i got from mit ocw, where the lecturer said he doesn't use a debugger, not because he is too good but because he uses out.println or something like that. also the difference between many foreign developers and us is that they reinvent the wheel. can you tell me whats more reinvented than the wheel ?. except you don't plan on doing more with less.

I get the feeling you lack real world industry experience or you are still in school.
If you weren't, you wouldn't be disagreeing with what that gent was saying about "stop kidding yourself, use an IDE".

Experience will also help you understand that academia and industry are 2 absolutely different things.
Most lecturers know NOTHING about industry, and industry is what pays the bills. That a person is a lecturer does not make them a god on any subject. And it does not mean they know the first thing about architecting and developing robust software solutions. It only means that they can teach from the book and can make a few "hobby" programs. Hobby software doesn't quite cut it in the business world. It is not a product.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 3:04am On Dec 22, 2013
Jeffahead:

Step through every line of your code without you having to write a single line of extra out.print code
Inspect every local variable in the middle of a running program even ones that are not in the method that's running
Change the value of a local variable and then continue running from that point with the new value
Run through a method then go back to the beginning of the same method and step through it again

I could go on, but out.print and a debugger are two very different things.



this is the definition of a debugger- "a debugger or debugging tool is a program that is used to test or debug other programs"-wikipedia.
This is the conceptual definition. Wat u use in your ide is a model of d definitions . But in your confusion btw model and defintion you mistake wat you use as the definition.
Sorry bro , your ide usage ddnt increase your thnkg in this area. Your mind is the software.
Enuff philosophizg. This means any program tht fits this description IS A DEBUGGR.
Like javanian posited any tracer tht gives feedback on wat is happeng in code is a debugger.
Your assumption tht i dnt use a debugger is like i said narrow minded.
I'ved used tracg for debugg for years . And it has wrked for me.
Sophisticated tracg tht gives me the information i need to detect errors and home in on them. Again code to concept stop mistake tools for definitions.
If it does wat i need it delivers.
Proof tht it delivers is programs acting to expectation.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 4:08am On Dec 22, 2013
2buff:

I get the feeling you lack real world industry experience or you are still in school.
If you weren't, you wouldn't be disagreeing with what that gent was saying about "stop kidding yourself, use an IDE".

Experience will also help you understand that academia and industry are 2 absolutely different things.
Most lecturers know NOTHING about industry, and industry is what pays the bills. That a person is a lecturer does not make them a god on any subject. And it does not mean they know the first thing about architecting and developing robust software solutions. It only means that they can teach from the book and can make a few "hobby" programs. Hobby software doesn't quite cut it in the business world. It is not a product.

this is nothg but vague empty bluff. Bunkum talk.
Remember all the framewrks tht have come and gone. All the methodologies?
Wen the waterfall method was the dominant method people talked like you. Called it industry standards all watnot.
Now sombody has the mind to call ide usage the distinguisher btw a professional developer and a non professional dev.
Utter nonsense.
None of you proponents hav given any solid defence why ide connotes professionalism.
Some fanatc is ravg about a debugger he knows nothg about.
Lecturers advance industry. Industry ignores academia to its own peril . Eventually industry subscribes to academia 100 percent. Industry ignored garbage collection in the 60s only to implement as ground breakg technology in java in the 90s. 30+ years later. Who was behind actually- the lecturers or the industry.

Wat is an ide?
A composite program containg other programs mainly; a compiler, a debugger, and an editor. Thts all. Svn,mercurial,git support are whistles.
Some other goodies like intellisense,code completion basically labour savg devices.

Wat dyu need to craft software.
A compiler, an editor, a way to test and debug applications.
If you have the bascs you can develop.
The rest is a matter of preference.
One dev likes the tools in one place the other likes them separate.
Same functionality achieve same goals. Is the lack of havg them in one place the sign of amateurishness ? Wat kind of sck thinkg is this?
To buttress ur stands the talk changes to "real world", "industrial strenght" bla bla.
If you love your ide fine.
But dont try to claim tht real wrk cant b done other wise because thyre equally superb standalone tools . If ur grouse is the quick run button tht runs the app in or place or the code completion etc note tht productve people adapt and maximize their tools to get wrk done in time.
The rest of d debate for or against ide usage boils down to the benefits in terms of cost savgs.
Which boils dwn to how much difference it makes.
And this isnt as clear cut cuz the tool convenience vs the the costs ar weighed.
And each developer has his personal thresh hold.
You cant decide fr any1.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Jeffahead: 11:01am On Dec 22, 2013
Kambo has obviously grown very fond of using Notepad++ to write code and I can see will say anything to justify that. Well if you want to use an axe to cut down trees then I won't say its wrong. For me sha, I'll stick to my power-saw grin grin

So coming back to the topic of the thread, my power-saw of choice is the mighty Eclipse.

2 Likes

Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by elvis10ten(m): 12:07pm On Dec 22, 2013
2buff:

I get the feeling you lack real world industry experience or you are still in school.
If you weren't, you wouldn't be disagreeing with what that gent was saying about "stop kidding yourself, use an IDE".

Experience will also help you understand that academia and industry are 2 absolutely different things.
Most lecturers know NOTHING about industry, and industry is what pays the bills. That a person is a lecturer does not make them a god on any subject. And it does not mean they know the first thing about architecting and developing robust software solutions. It only means that they can teach from the book and can make a few "hobby" programs. Hobby software doesn't quite cut it in the business world. It is not a product.
Am not against the use of ides, just saying. And lastly am not programming just to pay bills. please get that.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 11:31pm On Dec 22, 2013
Jeffahead: Kambo has obviously grown very fond of using Notepad++ to write code and I can see will say anything to justify that. Well if you want to use an axe to cut down trees then I won't say its wrong. For me sha, I'll stick to my power-saw grin grin

So coming back to the topic of the thread, my power-saw of choice is the mighty Eclipse.

if an ide was a pwr saw and notepad++ was a plain old axe ur analogy wudve wrked but its broken.
I wonder wat you'd say of programmers usg sublime, vi/vim,emacs,textmate for development instead of netbeans,eclipse ?
You'd whip ur debugger question? ..
And tell them theyre not writg "real wrld , professional level software " because they cant "debug" their programs?
Where the only way to debug a program-to you- is via an ide.

Wen asked wat a debugger is you mention the tool on ur ide (shwg u thnk in terms of tools)!

(actually, you've shwn a lack of creatvty and programmg is abt creatvty n improvsg)

Smh.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 5:00am On Dec 23, 2013
It pains me to see certain Nigerians still prefer to go about things the mediocre way, delivering mediocre products in the process.
Unfortunately, in most things tech, I have just come to by default expect a general lack of quality when it pertains to naija...and this is a sad thing.

Time to market is key. How many System.out are you going to do when you can just use breakpoints and see EVERYTHING at once, and even make realtime changes to the code while it is still running saving you time recompiling, launching and getting the program to the desired testing state once more.

Forget debugger sef, what about profiling?
How can you find and fix memory leaks, find CPU bottlenecks and other such things without a memory profiler? especially when you have millions of lines of code?
These are the things that determine good software. These things make the difference between a programmer who just builds things and a Software Engineer who builds things to last. Or do you think it is normal to release software that freezes and/or crashes randomly causing business downtime?

Again, people who generally rant against the use of IDEs I feel are people who have never created or worked on any software past the skillset of a college or bedroom project, or all they probably do is php scripting or something of the sort. I don't care if the person is a lecturer or a self-proclaimed guru. All dat one na "I am L33t" forming. Ain't nobody give a damn about your perceived HaXXor level. I only care about how fast AND how proper he/she can build/enhance the product and synergize their efforts with the team, and by those metrics, they better get and learn an IDE. I wouldn't hire anyone who thinks I should be impressed by the fact that they use command line to code...
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by elvis10ten(m): 5:23am On Dec 23, 2013
2buff: It pains me to see certain Nigerians still prefer to go about things the mediocre way, delivering mediocre products in the process.
Unfortunately, in most things tech, I have just come to by default expect a general lack of quality when it pertains to naija...and this is a sad thing.

Time to market is key. How many System.out are you going to do when you can just use breakpoints and see EVERYTHING at once, and even make realtime changes to the code while it is still running saving you time recompiling, launching and getting the program to the desired testing state once more.

Forget debugger sef, what about profiling?
How can you find and fix memory leaks, find CPU bottlenecks and other such things without a memory profiler? especially when you have millions of lines of code?
These are the things that determine good software. These things make the difference between a programmer who just builds things and a Software Engineer who builds things to last. Or do you think it is normal to release software that freezes and/or crashes randomly causing business downtime?

Again, people who generally rant against the use of IDEs I feel are people who have never created or worked on any software past the skillset of a college or bedroom project, or all they probably do is php scripting or something of the sort. I don't care if the person is a lecturer or a self-proclaimed guru. All dat one na "I am L33t" forming. Ain't nobody give a damn about your perceived HaXXor level. I only care about how fast AND how proper he/she can build and enhance the product, and by those metrics, they better get and learn an IDE. I wouldn't hire anyone who thinks I should be impressed by the fact that they use command line to code...
Not only Nigerians ooo.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by ektbear: 7:47am On Dec 23, 2013
For me IDEs just help me catch syntax errors and other bugs of that category before I even compile.

That and auto-completion is pretty convenient.

Basically before July of this year I didn't use IDEs at all, but I think I'm a lot more productive with them.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by elvis10ten(m): 9:33am On Dec 23, 2013
ekt_bear: For me IDEs just help me catch syntax errors and other bugs of that category before I even compile.

That and auto-completion is pretty convenient.

Basically before July of this year I didn't use IDEs at all, but I think I'm a lot more productive with them.
sweet. Does each language have their ide or can i use one ide for all languages ?.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 10:27am On Dec 23, 2013
2buff: It pains me to see certain Nigerians still prefer to go about things the mediocre way, delivering mediocre products in the process.
Unfortunately, in most things tech, I have just come to by default expect a general lack of quality when it pertains to naija...and this is a sad thing.

Time to market is key. How many System.out are you going to do when you can just use breakpoints and see EVERYTHING at once, and even make realtime changes to the code while it is still running saving you time recompiling, launching and getting the program to the desired testing state once more.

Forget debugger sef, what about profiling?
How can you find and fix memory leaks, find CPU bottlenecks and other such things without a memory profiler? especially when you have millions of lines of code?
These are the things that determine good software. These things make the difference between a programmer who just builds things and a Software Engineer who builds things to last. Or do you think it is normal to release software that freezes and/or crashes randomly causing business downtime?

Again, people who generally rant against the use of IDEs I feel are people who have never created or worked on any software past the skillset of a college or bedroom project, or all they probably do is php scripting or something of the sort. I don't care if the person is a lecturer or a self-proclaimed guru. All dat one na "I am L33t" forming. Ain't nobody give a damn about your perceived HaXXor level. I only care about how fast AND how proper he/she can build/enhance the product and synergize their efforts with the team, and by those metrics, they better get and learn an IDE. I wouldn't hire anyone who thinks I should be impressed by the fact that they use command line to code...


interestg to see how this ide/non ide thng has gone.
I dnt use an ide and i may not use one anytime soon.
All your points are theoretcal at most.
Frst thg u dnt get is tht a programmer shud b creatve. A debugger with breakpoints i've not used but created stable programs tht hav run and done wat thyre supposed to do.
Ur profiling is hog wash in reality.
Profiling is one of the early thngs a learner begins to hear about after doing programmg for a while. The knowledge and inclination to use it is not born out of ide culture. Code can b debugged as good and as professionally as necessary without an ide. Debugging= finding and removg errors in your program.



because in reality wen you are usg software, you as the end user dnt know how bad or how good its been engineered. But you hav an acceptance range of quality. Anythg within tht range is okay with you. Mind you theyre tonnes of standalone profilers ides didnt invent profilers. In java there's jprofiler. Your and your ide proponents are stiff free your minds abeg.
convenience is essential to productivity not dogmatsm.
So the whole wrld of oop developers shud use one of three main products to meet ur irrelevant standards of wat it takes to be a software engineer.
Eclipse,netbeans,intellij?

You feel,you have come to expect,you thnk he/she is a scripter (php/etc) - these are stereotypical assumptions.
Your opinion about a person has no effect on tht person . Nor the facts. Theyre just tht opinions.
To correct you and ur ilks, software development is a function of time. If a partcular software will cost 2000 hrs estimate, the quality of d product is unaffected by the tool used.
because the executable code doesnt inherit traits from d tools used to craft it . The source code doesnt reflect wether it was made in netbeans or eclipse or intellij . The so called time savgs u rave about is subjectve.
If it cost 2000 hours and an ide gets you there in 2 hours less time yet you go blow 10 hours on other activities you as a human have still had a net input of 2000+
while the other fellow may not think d two hours savgs as sufficient greater thn his convenience with his preferred tools.
You are also implying, developers dont write buggy inefficient software tht crash with ides.
Youre mistaken.
Ides have nothg to do with capability . Ides are for labour savg. Thts all.

I wouldnt hire anyone who is dogmatic about tools.
Wat were d first ides written with? Ides? No! And did their quality plummet because of tht? No.
All software have bugs thts y theyre always evolvg. You only need to look back in history to prove urself wrong. Popular and large software have been written long bf ides bcame a craze.

All an ide says this is how to do software. But ppl hav been doing software long bf ides and ppl will continue to hav opinions on how it shud b done. One way isnt superior because its popular.

An ide is just another program.

1 Like

Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 12:01pm On Dec 23, 2013
^^ Everything you have said further buttresses the fact that you don't know anything about what you are talking about.
Also your logic on the 2000 hours thing sounded like ramblings to me and did not make sense in the slightest.

I can see you have never been involved in any project that takes more than 5 minutes to compile/run. Do you understand what it's like waiting that much time just to get the program to run? Can you imagine trying to debug that sort of beast with System.out instead of dynamically using breakpoints at runtime? Can you imagine having to wait that much time everytime you make a change to the code instead of just using real-time code injection? Can you imagine waiting for that much time only to realize that you misspelt something somewhere in the 5000+ other class files when the IDE would have caught that for you, freeing your time to hunt down more important things, like runtime exceptions?

If you were my employee, do you think you'll be doing all that "look how cool I am without an IDE" time-wasting nonsense on my time/budget?
In your earlier post I see you said something about "I don't use Junit". I understand Junit is not the only unit test tool but I'm going to go out on a lim here and guess you are the type of programmer who doesn't care about unit testing in general?

Whatever the case may be, Don't let your lack of experience deceive you. Opt to learn and use a professional IDE.
Going without it is like choosing to reinvent the wheel or write EVERY LIBRARY you intend to use from scratch instead of leveraging freely available libraries....unless all you do is PHP scripting or something mundane like that.

1 Like

Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 12:36pm On Dec 23, 2013
ekt_bear: For me IDEs just help me catch syntax errors and other bugs of that category before I even compile.

That and auto-completion is pretty convenient.

Basically before July of this year I didn't use IDEs at all, but I think I'm a lot more productive with them.

Abi O.
That is the question y'all need to ask yourself: "Do I want to be more productive at my job?" If the answer is Yes, then learn to use an IDE.

This field is a lot different from "static-method" career choices whose methodologies don't really change for decades (e.g mechanical engineering). In Software development, lack of continuous improvement and lack of willingness to learn new things is a sure-fire way to get your job outsourced or given to someone else! If you are the sort of person resistant to changing how you work (and sometimes what you work with) every 2 years (or less), then you're in the wrong field.

This is the only field that doesn't care if you have 50 years of experience in it, because really only about 10 years of it will ever be truly relevant.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 12:43am On Dec 24, 2013
@2buff

if u said i dnt know wht i'm talkg about you're rambling emotionally.
Your points are subjectve and illogcal.
I said on the time thng tht software development is a function of time.. Tht sounds like senseless talk to u rght?
I said tools hav nothg to do with capability and final prodct- source code - created either way ,ide way/hand crafted way, bears no marks of d tools used to create it.
Meanin at the end of d day, the source code is just literate logc to b consumed by a machine.
How d source was derved bcomes irrelevant - of course i dnt know jack about software.
The issue bringg this talk is how it is made whch brought up the debuggg issue:
again like anoda ide advocate,you cant distinguish btw the concept and d model of wat a debugger is.
So to u any1 not on an ide and therefore not usg the tools the ide provides is miles backwrd.
If i ask you about wat unit testg is you may thnk in terms of junit or testng.
This spirit is the anti thesis to developmnt in software- inability to accept thnkg alien to yours.
On the 5000 file question - wat partcular tool wud b used to address d problem? The editor , profiler, debugger or compiler?
Your problem is an editor problem tht a capable editor can handle.

"If i were ur employee - rather if u had an employee who used a text editor n compiler..
. Or in a wrkplace where they hav preset rules on wat tools to use etc.. "

This example is unnecessary. I'll never be ur employee and teams/workplaces hav conventions.

On the otherhand, if you're a manager who frces your wrkers to use tools they dnt like using threats of any kind
(because of some nebulous prodctvty gain ,your nthg but a tyrant and a managerial misfit. A happy wrker is a prodctve wrker.
A smart wrker will adapt wen faced with limitations-includg tool limitation.
.freedom fosters creativity.creatvty is wat brought software this far and made it a standout field. Fghtg freedm is sure way to stagnation. Like i said earlier "open ur mind." )

"The 2000 hour analogy sounded like rambling to you.". Or rather you ddnt understand wat i was sayg therefore wen you dnt understnd wat som1 who has a diffrent view point is sayg you conclude the problem lies with the person and not you. You brand it rubbish.

"i'll go out on a limb and say you dont care about software testg" -
your being polite you wud also say i dnt
employ any accepted software engineerg principle.

Wat libraries wud one reinvent if he ddnt use an ide?
Any1 not usg an ide wud create alternatves tht wud make him as prolifc as an ide user. And with less cruft. Your ides weigh in at almost a gig (for the full stack) or in d low hundreds of megs.
Some forgoes this in favor of lighter weight tools and you assume he's a novce.
Your tone is condescendgly arrogant.
You've made allegations and belittling conclusions from your pedestal as an ide user.
I wish i werent jaded by your reply.
Like i said to jeff as a programmer you are suppose to be creatve.
Wat you and the other fellow call "industrial strenght " applications are nothing but larger sized applications . You set of folks more or less say tht som1 not usg tool x for developmnt lacks the mental and intellectual mettle to handle larger jobs. Mutter ur words to yourself so u can hear urself thnk. You're spoutg illogicity.
Nb: you cudve used a more general term instead of insultg all the php programmers.
Theyre many in tht realm u cant hold a candle up to.

A smart person is flexible and adaptable. The only time a person cud b accused of foolshness and blind obstinacy is wen he clings to far inferior ways wen superior alternatves exists.
Where d difference is clearly signifcant. E.g using foot instead of a vehcle. In software dev ths analogy maynot fit because the difference mayb insignifcant. The alternatve is more convenient .. Bck to d foot vs vehcle,axe vs chain saw example none of the alternatves are comfortable by any stretch even for short effrts.
The users cant really improve their tools.
Many programmers are swtchg from ides to slim tools. And some software shops allow freedom of choice of tools to their devs.
Watever u thnk is ur opinion.
It doesnt matter. Theyll always be non ide programmers.

viewpoints:

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/183881/how-do-you-debug-without-an-ide

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/39798/being-ide-dependent-how-can-it-harm-me

3 Likes

Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 4:54pm On Dec 24, 2013
@kambo
O boy, All this one you dey talk for here just admit 2 things:

1. You don't like upgrading your skills and learning new paradigms and efficient ways of working.
2. You no get enough RAM cheesy

As to the first link you posted, I haven't seen you post anything about BOTH profiling AND debugging at the sake time without an IDE. Have fun with that...

As to the 2nd link, you might want to actually read the content of the page yourself, especially that answer with the most likes. Its popular for a reason. wink

Still, the fact is, you never see PROJECT. If you do, nobody will have to tell you before you learn an IDE and "grow up" professionally to the point where you realize it is not about you, but its all about the business. It might be fun coding without an ide as a hobby, but it adds absolutely no value to the business...and in fact is detrimental to business value and team synergy. When you get to this point of professional maturity in the craft, then you will understand...
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 12:43am On Dec 25, 2013
This haggling will never reach consensus, so let me summarse .
You've made absolute statements
-tht any1 not usg an ide CANNOT develop professional level quality software in decent time.
You've thrwn in the nebulous concept of REAL PROJECT to make ur point.
In essence ,to you, without an ide a programmer cant handle a lot of files.
You allege inflexibility and unyieldness of non-ide users.
On my part i advocate optg to code to ones style rather thn use uncomfortable tools,to you, only conceding if necessary. Adaptg to solve problems. This means if a text editor is ur thng use it and build your development practces around your style and convenience. Usg this approach, you stay creatve and flexible but you dnt confrm thoughtlessly.
this is the bottleneck and contention btw my types and tool advocates like you. On d debuggg side,applyg this principle the programmer will find a suitable debugger learn it,if it is unintuitve-to him even if its ravg popular he'll ditch it and find a more convenient one or write his own.not blindly download a 200-600mb+ file just so he can use the debugger!! The same goes for profiling.
it's slower in d short run but superior in d long run. For One, he learns to think originally not typically. One of ur advocates cudnt imagne how on earth a programmer can debug without the usual ide tool for tht. This is classcal typical thinkg. Meang in a non ide situation he cant function.
A thread on this forum is of som1 who cant package his program-he's usg an ide.
On one of the links i posted,the person admitted to being helpless without the ide taking an entire day to do what in d ide cudve taken 10mins!!

The key is mind nimbleness and dexterity not tool adherence.
Your mind is the issue not d tool
,if d tool isnt around the programmer shud b able to function effectvely by imrovsg.
On the being in a rut issue. My take is a wrker who isnt updated in his field will lose momentum but they're more important issues that take priority e,g in java theyre new and more powerful api's tht obsolete older ones. Learng and usg them well takes time.
Theyre newer promisg languages.
Framewrks,methodologies.
Stayg abreast on these while being ignorant abt somethg as trivial as a build tool is wiser.
A smart and indvdualstc programmer knows wen to ditch his method. But not until its apparent tht his style is unacceptably inefficient.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Nobody: 1:10am On Dec 25, 2013
So you'd rather "build your own debugger/profiler" as opposed to just downloading and learning a 600mb all inclusive IDE?
I give up... We obviously don't come from the same place as only one of us has respect for TIME and business productivity.

All the best in your L33t quest cheesy
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by Jeffahead: 1:07pm On Dec 25, 2013
2buff: @kambo
... It might be fun coding without an ide as a hobby, but it adds absolutely no value to the business...and in fact is detrimental to business value and team synergy. When you get to this point of professional maturity in the craft, then you will understand...

Absolutely true!!
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 12:09am On Dec 26, 2013
Whichever way there is always a price tag.

Follow ur heart and incur dissaproval frm peers and others

Follow the norm and avoid sanctions but live with dissatisfaction

Stay with a tool u dnt like and accumulate resentment while usng the it.

Forge ur own tool and incur time and money cost craftg somthg after your heart.


Learn d tool till it bcomes intuitve and incur time and focus cost

forge your own tool and grow them organically usg the time it wudve taken to learn anoda tool.

Control and streamline more of your development process at xtra cost
upfront
or giv up more control for peer approval and less cost.

Save the organization money doing as your told

enrich your career life and satisfaction implementg your ideas - which may or may not have future monetary value but may hav other greater non monetary impact.


Whatever dev choice we make costs and benefits attach.
Money and time arent d only factors to consider. Theyre other variables too.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by javadoctor(m): 9:04am On Dec 26, 2013
Hu is dis kambo guy? Are u a human being? I have a feeling u re one of the aliens from scary movie who doesn't like the earth paradigms , What do u use to type sef? Is it a computer a phone? Do u understand what am I saying? Cos I don't understand what u say most of the time, u rant a lot of eye bugging stuff, I hv little interest in reading ur stuf, so I just scroll down. @2buff u might just wantu save some data by ignoring this thread's convo.
@kambo, The truth is u neva jam project, if u noticed I hvnt mentioned the many functionalities of an IDE, cos we are all wasting kambo's time. He won't agree. So leave him alone.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by ToyinDipo(m): 11:34am On Dec 26, 2013
kambo: Whichever way there is always a price tag.

Follow ur heart and incur dissaproval frm peers and others

Follow the norm and avoid sanctions but live with dissatisfaction

Stay with a tool u dnt like and accumulate resentment while usng the it.

Forge ur own tool and incur time and money cost craftg somthg after your heart.


Learn d tool till it bcomes intuitve and incur time and focus cost

forge your own tool and grow them organically usg the time it wudve taken to learn anoda tool.

Control and streamline more of your development process at xtra cost
upfront
or giv up more control for peer approval and less cost.

Save the organization money doing as your told

enrich your career life and satisfaction implementg your ideas - which may or may not have future monetary value but may hav other greater non monetary impact.


Whatever dev choice we make costs and benefits attach.
Money and time arent d only factors to consider. Theyre other variables too.

No offence, but I wish I could know the 'little programs' you have been able to write so far with notepad, because you definitely don't sound like a genius that can do a lot with notepad.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by kambo(m): 8:25pm On Dec 27, 2013
ToyinDipo:

No offence, but I wish I could know the 'little programs' you have been able to write so far with notepad, because you definitely don't sound like a genius that can do a lot with notepad.

hmmm. This thread is still on.
@javadctor
i dnt write for you. I express myself. My thoughts on programmg etc.
What happens after i post is immaterial. In my opinion d arrow has left d bow.
Read my views and urs and other ide proponents and THINK on it for a while-it may sink in or not.

"you scroll down the write ups "
- the equivalent of a yawn or mind-switchg.
Actually, in real life i've notced tht ppl either hav an aptitude for
non-utilitarian discussions , i.e philosophical musgs, or not.
You are not the type philosophcl type.
As programmers, you can get by with over utilitarian thinkg and ideals , infact typical programmg is a kind of artisanry . Artsans dont muse. But you cud learn to access technology at a more philosphcl level,at most you ideas cud b appreciated and implemnted by a notable audience at worst, u simply aired ur thoughts.
The ideas cud b developed or expanded on l8r.

One of d points ur type made was d assessmnt of non tool usage on two typical but shabby metric: time and money . Lookg only from d business perspectve, ignorg the user experience metrc. User xperience is hard if not impossble to measure but it has far reachg ramifcations thn the typical proft outlook.
You also ignore the inherent opportunity cost from d choice one makes. Its not as shallow as u try to make it.
Two ur cause of debate is trivial: development methodologies.
If i said i write my software by machine language ur arguments about my method being too inefficient for business purpose wud b plausble but ur debate is frm narrow thnkg.
Open ur mind. Unproven non absolute tradition cannot be extolled to the level of ABSOLUTE TRUTH.


@toyindipo
u know better thn to act so naive.
You want me to prove myself to u Or the ide-proponents.
Only a fool wud do tht.
Your opinions dnt matter and changes nothg.
Just think for a while wat these guys and you are saying:
"without (optional) tool x (ide in this case) you cant develop software.
Even if you hav the individual tools necessary to develop software but not in d form they
are familiar with".
Psychology,theyre (and u) projectg their
notions into their analysis while tryg t appear objectve. Smh.

"i wish to know THE LITTLE programs YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE to write with so far with notepad "
.Keywrds here :write, little, "been able".
It takes a genuis to use a text editor to write programs. Except the editor he is usg is bordered on d left by anoder program and below by anoda program . In other words in an ide!
With the ide you can thnk and produce the logc needed to write non little programs without d ide ur thnkg is impaired except of course you are a genius.
Thts y ordinary people use ides.
It mixes the logc properly and pulls it out onto the editor from their head.
If you forgo the ide u forgo this capability and remain handcapped only able to jerk out "little" programs!
Wow! U do thnk logcally.



From d nature of d fanaticsm dsplayed, it wont b suprisg if logcl responses are ditched for abusive tirades. Keep ur minds open . Evaluate ur beliefs.
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by javadoctor(m): 3:07am On Dec 28, 2013
Wtf kambo, english please
Re: Your Favorite Java IDE? by techwizard(m): 11:20pm On Jan 01, 2014
Mine is netbeans and eclipse

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