We should debate and educate each other about the position of the Catholic Church on Muslims.

The Cathecism of the Catholic Church (CCC) paragraph 841 reads thus:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

CCC is the Catholic Church's doctrines and their intepretation of what the bible and their faith is all about. It is amazing that being Catholic also means believing that Muslims are destined for paradise, judging from the article above. Meanwhile Catholic church member of little knowledge go around preaching to Muslims to convert. I will have to ask 'Convert so that what?' Since Catholic faith believes we are Paradise bound, I expect them to only praise Muslims and encourage them to continue in the path of Islam.


You can get the full text of the CCC from Vatican follow this Url http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm.

You should move this topic to the main religion board where all the catholics are. . . me sef I would love to see the answers to this question.

I'm also waiting for a catholic explanation.

Personally, I believe that heaven is too big for only just one sect.

Uche2nna:

Personally, I believe that heaven is too big for only just one sect.

Heaven is not your private property where you can determine who will be there, how many and when they will go there. The bible is more than plain on who will be there and under what criteria.

Christ spent 33 yrs on earth and ended up with only 11 faithful disciples . . . surely such a MAN was too big for just a bunch of ragtag fishermen and sinners.

How do catholics explain the claim by the church that muslims are also bound for heaven?

Uche2nna:

Personally, I believe that heaven is too big for only just one sect.

i agree > I ALSO THINK HEAVEN is not as described in the holy books> Heaven is a whole different place or state

davidylan:

Heaven is not your private property where you can determine who will be there, how many and when they will go there. The bible is more than plain on who will be there and under what criteria.

Christ spent 33 years on earth and ended up with only 11 faithful disciples . . . surely such a MAN was too big for just a bunch of ragtag fishermen and sinners.

How do catholics explain the claim by the church that muslims are also bound for heaven?

How do You know You are bound for heaven?

Christ chose a few for his ministry and had multitude of followers even before his death.
Maybe the parable of the good samaritan means nothing to you. Thats the same perception that the Jews had and that was why it was difficult for them to accept Him. We are all supposed to be gentiles and doomed from the start.

Uche2nna:

How do You know You are bound for heaven?

Just the same way brother Paul was convinced he was bound for heaven.

Uche2nna:

Christ chose a few for his ministry and had multitude of followers even before his death.

There was a time he had more than 70 disciples who turned from following Him after His hard teachings - Read John 6.
Many were added to the church after His death and resurrection and during the pentecost experience . . . it doesnt detract from the central message . . . Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Uche2nna:

Maybe the parable of the good samaritan means nothing to you. Thats the same perception that the Jews had and that was why it was difficult for them to accept him. We are all supoosed to be gentiles and doomed from the start.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

that from the same Christ who taught us about the good samaritan. If muslims indeed are bound for the same heaven then at least half of the earth's 6 billion people would be qualified . . .

powderPink:

i agree > I ALSO THINK HEAVEN is not as described in the holy books> Heaven is a whole different place or state

Please do endeavour to either not post personal opinions or try to validate them by the scriptures that we all may learn rather than indulge in endless genealogies.
Heaven is clearly described in the bible unless you've lost your copy.

davidylan:

.

Please do endeavour to either not post personal opinions or try to validate them by the scriptures that we all may learn rather than indulge in endless genealogies.
Heaven is clearly described in the bible unless you've lost your copy.

Excuse me? not post personal opinions? have you lost your marbles? its a freaking forum and everyone is posting personal opinons including you. Opinions are like asshole ''we've all got one''

Validate them?  first of all i am not a preacher like you clearly are sir. I don't see any genealogy here do you?  I don't own a copy of the bible don't judge people before they speak sir please. i will state my opinions  on any topic i like. I was replying someone else not you . you seem to want to commandeer this topic with your force fed opinons , i will allow you, just let others slip in their own little thought when and how they see fit

davidylan:


There was a time he had more than 70 disciples who turned from following Him after His hard teachings -
Many were added to the church after His death and resurrection and during the pentecost experience . . . it doesnt detract from the central message . . . Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Just wondering how the above posts prove or disprove the fact that only david and his sect is going to heaven?  

One thing was clear, Jesus had more than 70 followers before he died. So I dont know what U hope to achieve by throwing that number at me.

powderPink:

Excuse me? not post personal opinions? have you lost your marbles? its a freaking forum and everyone is posting personal opinons including you. Opinions are like asshole ''we've all got one''

Validate them? firstl of all i am not a preacher like you clearly are sir. I don't see any genealogy here do you? I don't own a copy of the bible don't judge people before they speak sir please. i will state my opinions on any topic i like. I was replying someone else not you

you're just 17, its more than obvious. when u grow up come back and debate like an adult.

Uche2nna:

Just wondering how the above posts prove or disprove the fact that only david and his sect is going to heaven?

It doesnt, however if you read the bible a bit more closely it says nothing about entry into heaven being on the basis of belonging to a certain man-made group. Rather salvation is on an individual basis . . . He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved.

Does the muslim believe in the death and resurrection of Christ? Is baptism central to muslim belief? How then shall they enter into the kingdom of heaven unless the catholics have a special entry qualification unknown to the rest of us?

Uche2nna:

One thing was clear, Jesus had more than 70 followers before he died. So I don't know what You hope to achieve by throwing that number at me.

The essence for bringing that up was to show that from generation to generation, the number of those who genuinely accept the Lord Jesus Christ is always a minute fraction of the larger population.

There are over 1 billion muslims (1/6th of the earth's population) . . . if they were meant for heaven too its a wonder that Christ would be wary about finding faith on earth at His return.

hmm first because i had a different opinion you thought to trash it by asking me to come up with pages of proof , then you do a quick check of my profile and wow! surprise surprise you find out my age and think to belittle me and my opinions. Wow i am in awe of your maturity sir. I hope you know true adults and grown ups don't insult those younger than themselves or use the lowest form or attack instead of wit. Just hope you know that.

Please ignore me great old soul david and let others with a different opinion voice them. i don't think i am uber intelligent. But i am not dumb either . One thing my Nan used to say to me was'' once an adult poops on the street, he must be ready for flies to dance around it''. I hail thee all knowing sir.

Again i believe heaven is a state and no one has exclusivity to it!

powderPink:

Again i believe heaven is a state and no one has exclusivity to it!

The reason i asked for scriptural validation of "opinions" is reiterated by baseless comments such as above.

The bible CLEARLY defines what heaven is, who resides there, why it exists and who will qualify to go there. Christ has EXCLUSIVITY to heaven . . . you can bash your head against a rock and type pages of heresy, it still wont change it.

Every religion has their own heaven,  methinks heaven will be like a city block, with each sect having its own floor,  buddist floor, xtian floor, muslim floor, okija floor etc, aint heaven fair

David you try sef no be small. . .

  @posters, I know everyone's got[b] their own opinion [/b] on who'll be in heaven but lets make sure this thread does not stray from the original question which is why catholics try to convert muslims when their own 'scripture' teaches that both they and muslims serve the same god?

  I have asked this question in a different manner on previous threads myself but got the usual electric slide around the question. Any bold catholics willing to give a direct and straightforward answer?

We should debate and educate each other about the position of the Catholic Church on Muslims.

The Cathecism of the Catholic Church (CCC) paragraph 841 reads thus:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

CCC is the Catholic Church's doctrines and their intepretation of what the bible and their faith is all about. It is amazing that being Catholic also means believing that Muslims are destined for paradise, judging from the article above.  Meanwhile Catholic church member of little knowledge go around preaching to Muslims to convert.  I will have to ask 'Convert so that what?'  Since Catholic faith believes we are Paradise bound, I expect them to only praise Muslims and encourage them to continue in the path of Islam.

idupaul:

Every religion has their own heaven, methinks heaven will be like a city block, with each sect having its own floor, buddist floor, xtian floor, muslim floor, okija floor etc, aint heaven fair

i like that lol. i really like the sound of that. You my kind of people.

****digression***

powderpink you shouldn't have put up your age, chances are that from now on, many people will treat you the way davidylan did.

@Topic:  interesting, i should read that stuff one of these days

davidylan:



There are over 1 billion muslims (1/6th of the earth's population) . . . if they were meant for heaven too its a wonder that Christ would be wary about finding faith on earth at His return.

Thats the problem right there.

We always tend to use our own sense of quantification to apply to Christ's teachings. Unfortunately, He is divine and we are only mortals. Whatever your own sense of quantification is does not apply to Christ. He has shown that a number of times. A few examples:
First with the feeding of the multitude with a couple of loaves of bread. The disciples figured that the bread was too small and the people too big.
Secondly, when he was leaving he said he was coming again very soon. Actually, some of the disciples and followers at that time figured that he was going to come back sooner than that. But the heavenly time frame is kind of different fromt eh world time frame . Same thing with quantification.

There are over 1 billion muslims ,  How many christians?? Is that a discontionous count or a continous count?  Better put, are You telling me the number of muslims at a particular period of time or are u telling me the number of muslims that have ever lived. Still, your argument does not really answer the question of how it is heaven is only made for You and your sect.

Talking  about sect, u always slip out whenever I ask about your sect. But u don't have a problem putting other sect under a dissecting microscope  

Anyways, I am outtie. I would leave You and other religious fanatics on this thread  

A_K_O:

****digression***

powderpink you shouldn't have put up your age, chances are that from now on, many people will treat you the way davidylan did.

@Topic: interesting

thanks for that advice, i may take it off. The way he treated me is fine , i have moved on from that, its just typical example of grown men and women who when faced with someone younger and with a different opinon begin to belittle you. Its cool i laugh at such things anyway. i know some grown people with all the educational experience, yet with little or no common sense or self respect.

Better put, are You telling me the number of muslims at a particular period of time or are u telling me the number of muslims that have ever lived. Still, your argument does not really answer the question of how it is heaven is only made for You and your sect.

methinke he mean all the muslims that ever lived plus does yet unborn

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Thank God that it said plan of salvation and not salvation itself. I guess that means that unbelievers cannot in anyway reach heaven, if the plan is not for them, I guess they cannot convert to Christianity then eh. Because clearly that's whatplan is.

I also thank God that it did not say these actually believe but that they profess. I always thought that in Christianity those who profess the name of Jesus are not actual followers of Jesus. But hey if because they profess it means that they are followers then I guess Jesus lied there.

*shakes head at the amount of people in christianity nowadays that cannot understand simple language they calim to understand*

Thats why i don't believe in religion, there are about 6.7 billion people on earth out of which about 1-2 billion  are christains. what  happens to the about 5 billion people who are not christains ? will they burn in hell for eternity for  not believing in a religion that they weren't born into? if you look at the bible there are no Chinese or Indian prophets, there are no prophets from the Americas, in fact those places were never mentioned in the bible and yet people go about claiming that jesus is the way to heaven, which heaven if i may ask and where is heaven? lol. make wuna dey there dey deceive wuna selves.religion like race is not a persons choosing, most people were born into their race and religion and they have little or no power or control over it. no sensible god will throw people into hell to burn for eternity over what they have absolute no power upon

Uche2nna:

We always tend to use our own sense of quantification to apply to Christ's teachings. Unfortunately, He is divine and we are only mortals. Whatever your own sense of quantification is does not apply to Christ. He has shown that a number of times.

Round about argument. For the sake of clarity i choose to reproduce the very statement from your catechism - [size=13pt]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/size]

This is clearly heresy, you can try and twist it however you wish to make it conform to your own interpretation but it is clear that this is NOT the same as saying "the plan of salvation includes muslims who choose to repent and acknowledge the saving grace of the precious blood of the lamb". Rather this phrase gives the FALSE impression that the only way to heaven is that anyone merely "acknowledge the creator" (WHO IS THIS CREATOR?), "profess to hold the faith of Abraham" (what is this ambigous statement? Did Christ come to propagate the faith of Abraham), and "adore the one merciful God.

There is no beating about the bush with the bible - Christ did not play around with Nicodemus' feelings when He told Him frankly - John 3:3 ", Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The same Christ said - John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Nothing can be clearer than those two statements. Nicodemus was a pharisee, he also acknowledged the "creator", he not only professed the faith and the laws of Abraham . . . he was in fact a teacher of the law . . . Nicodemus adored, served with reverence and dedicated his whole life to the "one merciful God" and YET he still foound himself empty enough to come to the master at night!!!

The insidous attempt to water down the gospel of Christ is why Christ wondered if He would find faith on earth when He returned. Play gymnastics with the bible all you can, it will stand in testimony against you and your folks on the last day.

Uche2nna:

A few examples:
First with the feeding of the multitude with a couple of loaves of bread. The disciples figured that the bread was too small and the people too big.
Secondly, when he was leaving he said he was coming again very soon. Actually, some of the disciples and followers at that time figured that he was going to come back sooner than that. But the heavenly time frame is kind of different fromt eh world time frame . Same thing with quantification.

What is your point here? What has the feeding of the 5000 got to do with the issue?

Uche2nna:

There are over 1 billion muslims , How many christians?? Is that a discontionous count or a continous count? Better put, are You telling me the number of muslims at a particular period of time or are u telling me the number of muslims that have ever lived. Still, your argument does not really answer the question of how it is heaven is only made for You and your sect.

Mr. there are actually about 1 billion muslims on earth as at present. Its not hard to google some basic information, mine is not an argument at all but a basic stating of facts as outlined in the bible which you seem very very resistant to reading. The bible NEVER anywhere talks about heaven being reserved for anyone particular group of people . . . Zacheus was a scheming tax collector, Lazarus was a beggar, there was a thief on the cross, Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul was an educated member of the religious order of his day . . . guess what? Each and everyone of these diverse men made it to the kingdom of heaven.

The bible says - Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The plan of salvation is nothing to do with your "sect", or congregation or church affiliation but your HEART.

Uche2nna:

Talking about sect, u always slip out whenever I ask about your sect. But u don't have a problem putting other sect under a dissecting microscope

Sorry, i dont belong to a "sect" whatever that nonsense means. Christ didnt belong to one neither did brother Paul or Apostle Peter establish any. If you find any in your bible pls do not hesitate to show me.

~Lady~:

Thank God that it said plan of salvation and not salvation itself. I guess that means that unbelievers cannot in anyway reach heaven, if the plan is not for them, I guess they cannot convert to Christianity then eh. Because clearly that's whatplan is.

I also thank God that it did not say these actually believe but that they profess. I always thought that in Christianity those who profess the name of Jesus are not actual followers of Jesus. But hey if because they profess it means that they are followers then I guess Jesus lied there.

*shakes head at the amount of people in christianity nowadays that cannot understand simple language they calim to understand*

Miss, sometimes one wonders if you do comprehend the things you read or you're just so resistant to the truth.

Now pls read that catechism and try so hard not to be a hypocrite about it. Note the highlights -

[size=14pt]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/size]

Together with who? anyone with half a brain shld be able to put two and two together. I rest my case.

@ OP and topic:

this has always been the Catholic church's official stance on Islam. Nothing new there.



The question is: does the average Muslim know or care when they're relating with non-clergy Catholics. And vice versa.

At the end of the day, all it boils down to is the usual thing: the leadership having a different set of rules from the followers.

Your thread title is misleading though.

~Lady~:

Thank God that it said plan of salvation and not salvation itself. I guess that means that unbelievers cannot in anyway reach heaven, if the plan is not for them, I guess they cannot convert to Christianity then eh. Because clearly that's whatplan is.

I also thank God that it did not say these actually believe but that they profess. I always thought that in Christianity those who profess the name of Jesus are not actual followers of Jesus. But hey if because they profess it means that they are followers then I guess Jesus lied there.

*shakes head at the amount of people in christianity nowadays that cannot understand simple language they calim to understand*

  wow lady you are really incapable of facing truth when its right in front of you. You're desperately trying to twist the quote from your catechism to mean something else. . . its ludicrous. To show you your folly here are your precious Pope's words himself affirming what the poster says, and what anyone who understands english gleans from that quote.

   

Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: 'We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection' (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).
http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

  you don't even know what your own church teaches, you exposed your ignorance here no be small.

Furthermore,

  in Nostra Aetate which is your churches official document on its stance towards other religions it says
3. About the Muslims
The Church regards Muslims with esteem: they adore the one God, living and enduring, the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth who has spoken to people; they strive to obey wholeheartedly His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham did, to whose faith they happily link their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostra_Aetate

davidylan:

Miss, sometimes one wonders if you do comprehend the things you read or you're just so resistant to the truth.

Now please read that catechism and try so hard not to be a hypocrite about it. Note the highlights -

[size=14pt]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/size]

Together with who? anyone with half a brain shld be able to put two and two together. I rest my case.

  I think it is the latter. . . how can anyone read that quote and twist it so much to try to say it means something else?    unbelieveable.

Miss, sometimes one wonders if you do comprehend the things you read or you're just so resistant to the truth.

Now please read that catechism and try so hard not to be a hypocrite about it. Note the highlights -

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Together with who? anyone with half a brain shld be able to put two and two together. I rest my case

I now know you lack basic and simple english of the fact that there it is saying that Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham and that they also profess that together with Christians they adore the one, merciful God, and mankind's judge on the last day.

So I suggest you go back to school and ask for your money back. Because you lack the basic skill of understanding english.

You may not realise that professing and possessing are different things. Jesus himself let us know that there are those who will profess to be believers in him, but do not actually believe in him or was Jesus lying?

I think it is the latter. . . how can anyone read that quote and twist it so much to try to say it means something else? unbelieveable.

are you serious? do i need to start english language class here? do you really need to go back to school to comprehend english? you know what i didn't want to believe it, but now with you and david as evidence, i do believe that the education system in naija has failed.

define profess for me, please. infact let me give it to you along with that of possess

Profess: to lay claim to, often insincerely; pretend to: He professed extreme regret.
2. to declare openly; announce or affirm; avow or acknowledge: to profess one's satisfaction.
3. to affirm faith in or allegiance to (a religion, God, etc.).

Possess: to have as belonging to one; have as property; own: to possess a house and a car.

Now they may profess or claim that they are worshippers of the same God, but that does not in anyway mean that truly the allah they claim is actually the one we claim. Get it now.

I can easily come to you and profess that I am an accountant, but does that mean that I actually possess an accounting degree? No.

So get your heads out of ridiculing the Church because you can't. Time and time again you will make a fool of yourself as you have already done and shown to everyone how little you know of your own belief or the origins of it.

wow lady you are really incapable of facing truth when its right in front of you. You're desperately trying to twist the quote from your catechism to mean something else. . . its ludicrous. To show you your folly here are your precious Pope's words himself affirming what the poster says, and what anyone who understands english gleans from that quote.

for yor information i'm very aware of what Pope John Paull II said. So because he said that I should leave the Church? If we all go by every word that comes out of the mouth of our pastors, I guess we should all have left Christianity then eh. Whatchu think?

do not for one minute think that i am you or david, i am not. just because i have a problem in my family does not mean that i will abandon my family. that is what it means to be one as Christ spoke of. you as protestants are very much like the prodigal son, you go out looking for greener pastures trying to deny your identity only to fail and feel unhappy, but are too prideful to return home. so you lead yourself to believe that you are right and you know better than everyone and you have convinced yourself right down into obsession.

I will pray for you, that your souls find peace.


You know what I will continue to be a Catholic, because I know that we actually teach what Christ taught. That salvation is open to everyone. That we will not pass judgment on others, especially since we do not know what tomorrow holds.
Let me ask you this. If a muslim tomorrow converts from islam to christianity, should they be turned away because the plan of salvation does not include them?
the plan of salvation includes everyone, everyone can be saved, but it doesn't mean that everyone will be. as long as there's a tomorrow there is a plan of slavation. God's plan does not end.

Be careful not to insult God and his mercy, in your quest to bash Catholics.

Is there anything in the "plan of salvation" that requires having the faith of Abraham? Please educate me.

If the Holy Catholic Church says anything on matters of faith, SO BE IT. We are a liberal church, catholic, general, liberal,universal. The late Pope John Paul II the great entered a mosque, kissed a Quran and associated with people of all races, religions, status and creeds. We do not discriminate.
So why do you have to believe Muslims would not make heaven in the first instance? If God is not in support of Islam why are the Islamic nations so blessed while Israel, the birth place of Jesus is being laid claim to by the Palestines day in day out? I know Jerusalem would still be divided one day, no doubt, and soonest.
This is just another effort to discredit Catholics. I would just advise we true Catholics to stick to our faith. GLORY TO JESUS, HONOUR TO MARY.

Idupaul:

Every religion has their own heaven,  methinks heaven will be like a city block, with each sect having its own floor,  buddist floor, xtian floor, muslim floor, okija floor etc, aint heaven fair

bros u funny oo!


_{i try not to wade into religious controversies!why?because a lot of people are biased moronic idiots with no respect for other peoples religions!}