₦airaland Forum

Chrisbenogor:
Elders manual? This is creepy,
Did the bible say anything about transfusion?

Chris: Yes, they have an "Elder's Manual". When you read this stuff, you'll be more than amazed. The Catholic church has got nothing on these guys when it comes to procedural punishment for "sins". Rank-and-file members (these are called "Publishers" are not allowed to have a copy of this; women are also not allowed to have a copy; only the "elders" (this is a title, and says little about the age of its bearer) are allowed to own one; the copy isn't actually theirs though, it belongs to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society; so they are instructed to return the copy when the cease to be an "elder". Here is the text of the 'warning' on one of the first pages of the book; note the part about no copies to be made:

[center]Distribution restriction:

A copy of this textbook is issued to each appointed elder, and he may retain it as long as he continues to serve as an elder in any congregation. At such time as he should cease to serve in that capacity, his copy of the book must be handed over to the Congregation Service Committee, since this publication is congregation property. No copies are to be made of any part of this publication. [/center]

For more informtion (and a copy of this book), visit: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_Elders'_manual:_Pay_Attention_to_Yourselves_and_All_the_Flock_(1991)

If you would like to read comments made by others (for an against) regarding having this book on the Internet, see this link: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Talk:Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_Elders%27_manual:_Pay_Attention_to_Yourselves_and_All_the_Flock_%281991%29

There's part of the comments there that I should want to highlight:

"This IS a cult composed of very nice genuine people in the rank and file and led by what I would call very insular, deluded sociopaths who have a minimal view of the value of human life in view of their peculiar pre-apocalypic religious doctrines."

Note the underlined part. The rank-and-file members are usually nice people; very caring and loving; but they are themselves victims; some by immutable circumstances, others by misinformed choice; let's hope our own Perrito will soon not become a statistic in this rank.

The Internet has wrought a heavy havoc on the JW religion.
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NImshi , I don dey fear now if see them now I would only be able to see zombies

Chris: frankly, you haven't heard a tithe of it; no kidding.

After the Internet (= easy information access) got to mainland Europe, the growth of the JW religion slowed down really much. JWs are growing mainly in places where information isn't easy to come by. One other thing that has hurt them is that when it comes to the sexual molestation of children, the Catholic church is even more decent than they are. This is a bleak assessment; but it is true. Even I could prove it.

But I'll prefer to do it when Perrito our friend - who thinks he has found the one true Christian religion in the Jehovah's Witnesses - returns.
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No kidding I saw something about a law case on it, please do you have a copy of the book we can share p2p if not please fire down, I have read enough psychology to know perri is gone, we cannot give him what his mind is searching for now and we are not in really close proximity to help either. This is the last thing I have to help him.

@Perriotu

I came across this on the internet, and I think in your quest to be a jehova's wit, your best friend will be the internet, nairaland will always be open to you if you ever doubt, the first sign to know if you are being brainwashed is when all signs of doubt begin to fizzle out, if you feel no doubt whatsoever about them, then maybe we were too late. I have a very close friend who is one, and now I can see the reason why he would not be able to leave, but he has doubt in mind which is he best tool. My last piece of advise is this quote from someone,

Although I have never been in a destructive religious group it has touched my life painfully. My cousin is an elder in the JWs. He has been a "witness" for about 20 years. He will not attend family funerals and has broken his parents hearts. When my grandmother died, who he was very close to, he did not come. When our aunt died recently again he did not come. When his mother was having very serious open heart surgery (she made it) he did not show to comfort his sister.

Even if I feel that the idea of God does not really make sense, I go to church every Sunday whenever I go visit my parents or whenever a good friend bugs me to go listen to some sermon, I do it to please them yes and really it takes  nothing from me but it means the world to them. My dad once told me "I know you think we are stupid but respecting why we do it goes a long way for me" I do not want to ever miss spending time they have left or being good friends with him because of what I believe, so I urge you today to really think of the pain you will be passing people through because when you are gone, you will not even be able to step your foot into the church where your father would be laid in state when he finally goes. You will not be able to go into the church to rejoice with your friend who is getting married because you are not allowed to, this I have experienced with my own naked eyes.

I know it seems superficial but really somehow we all live for each other and that is the reason why I am saying all this. Cheers in your quest.

@perriotu

I found this while scurrying the net too, its long but just try to read I will highlight important parts for you

How and Why Someone Becomes a Jehovah's Witness

A Psychological and Sociological Examination
reprint of the Jul/Aug. 1987 Bethel Ministries Newsletter (Now Free Minds Inc Newsletter)

by Jamie Boyden

Taking the mystery out of why one chooses to become a Jehovah's Witness is important. Much can be gained from the fields of social psychology and sociology as to how this occurs. It should be noted then that unique, individual motivating factors predicting and accompanying a person to favorably select the JW position will not herein be considered, rather factors at large and how people respond to the factors will be the author's spotlight. It should also be stated that the focus of[b] this article is on persons not "born into" the Watchtower Society organization.[/b]

Would You Like to Study the Bible?

Suffice it to say that most all prospective converts, after first meeting the JWs through a doorstep encounter, begin their indoctrination through a home book study. The weekly book study (which the Witnesses sometimes call a Bible study) is where the well-rehearsed JW and the newcomer go through a Watchtower publication together. Quite predictably, the Witness teacher asks the likely convert questions related to his reading assignments. He can read the questions written at the bottom of his study book and easily respond with the corresponding printed answers. He is continually praised for stating the appropriate Watchtower responses during his hour long book study. How important is this praise?

Social psychologists view praise as an extremely potent social reward, not only predicting actions but also capable of altering an individual's underlying attitudes and beliefs (Insko, 1965). Research has demonstrated that people come to like those who view them positively (Byrne & Rhamey, 1965). During initial visits, it is common to hear reassuring comfort from the Witness teacher that the potential convert is wise and intelligent to be showing interest in the knowledge which his very life depends on. However, as the initiate enjoys the attention and praise of his weekly visitor, he may begin to acquire what social psychologists call attitude-discrepant behavior.

Attitude-Discrepant Behavior

A famous theory in social psychology is Leon Festinger's cognitive dissonance1 theory (Festinger, 1957; Wichlund & Brehm, 1976). It is based on the premise that people can't live with inconsistencies. It works like this: On the one hand, the prospective convert usually has serious questions and doubts in the back of his mind about Jehovah's Witnesses and their teachings. It may be the blood transfusion issue, their view of the governments, their exclusive claims to Christianity, etc. Or, he may imagine the embarrassment of going door to door selling magazines. Y[b]et, he is allowing the Witness teacher into his home and is participating in a socially rewarding book study. Since his behavior is not yet in line with his negative attitudes towards the JWs, he manifests attitude-discrepant behavior.[/b]2 He may also face harsh warnings from his family and friends who tell him not to study with the JWs because they are a cult. Yet he has an honest curiosity about what the Witnesses teach and believe. He may go as far as verbally giving answers to typical Witness book study questions but not actually believing what he is saying. These are inconsistencies between his attitudes and result in a very unpleasant feeling (Higgins, Rhodewalt, & Zanna, 1979). If the potential convert does not initially have conflicting attitudes towards studying with the JWs, it is very likely to appear in a short time. Perhaps he will come upon some critical literature exposing the JW teachings, or talk to a former JW or another educated person. Even if someone does not present him with a critical viewpoint, he will often pose questions which will force him into a dissonance-creating situation.

I Wouldn't Do It If I Didn't Believe It!

With regard to inconsistencies between attitudes, it should be noted that no one enjoys this unpleasant state to last long, so when faced with a decision, a choice between two alternatives must be made. After all, one can't possess two diametrically opposed religious views! Interestingly, cognitive dissonance theory predicts that the alternative (once chosen) becomes enhanced (Brehm, 1956; Knox & Inkster, 1968; Younger, Walker, & Arrowood, 1977; Converse & Cooper, 1979). Indeed, accepting one side ("I enjoy studying and what if the Witnesses are right?" without devaluing the other would allow inner turmoil (dissonance) to still prevail.3

To cite a more familiar example, perhaps the reader has had a decisional conflict involving the advantages and disadvantages of a large purchase. And once the decision is made and the purchase is taken home, you evaluate more positive the purchase you chose and lower your perception of the alternative you discarded. Likewise, the prospective convert, in effect, does the same thing. His questions about the JWs are no longer seen as important or serious.

I Suffered For It, It Must Be Right!

Lastly, dissonance theory suggests that we are more likely to positively evaluate our choices that we have come to suffer for (Aronson & Mills, 1959; Gerard & Mathewson, 1966). When the convert has to deal with the negative consequences (profound embarrassment, persecution, friends viewing him as different, shedding worldly ties, etc.) of his decision to become a JW, he may justify himself by reasoning, "I suffered for it, it must be worth it."

In review, the convert is receiving much praise and enjoying his attentive Witness teacher. He is impressed with the knowledge of Scripture his teacher possesses and the sincerity of the Witnesses in general. But simultaneously he must settle the guilt feelings of knowing he should at least investigate the Watchtower organization in light of the negative feelings he already has and the compounded warnings from friends and relatives. We learned that he must deal with the stress of dissonance by making an either/or choice and following that action. We also learned that he may choose relatively quickly (compared to the gravity of the decision) and may stick with the choice because cognitive dissonance theory predicts his decision, once made, is greatly enhanced. But now we will turn to why the prospective convert does not choose to obtain more information to weigh before he decides to believe the Witnesses.

If You Can't Beat Them, Join Them!

When dissonance occurs, the course of action taken is usually the one that offers the least resistance. Indeed, the potential convert can ignore the pleas of his friends and family and isolate himself from all Watchtower opposers, fleeing to his new Witness friends. In reality, many choose to continue studying with the Witnesses because it is the path they have already begun, that they are continually being reinforced to take, and the path with the advantages flashed in front of them each week in their intensive book studies. This is why during the wrestling with dissonance and choosing an alternative, many forfeit the opportunity of investigating counter-cult information. There are a number of tactics the Witnesses use to insure that the newcomer will not search out or listen to the anti-Witness alternative. This leaves the potential convert with the counter-cult alternative as the one easiest to discard, in contrast to the overabundant pro-Witness information and guidance available from the JWs themselves.

Where Are My Friends at a Time Like This?

One method the Witnesses use to prevent the prospective convert from investigating the Watchtower organization is to recommend that one only associates with Witnesses. During the book study the initiate's attitude towards outside ("worldly" ties is frowned upon. Hence, if one doesn't make contact with anyone other than a JW, it is highly unlikely that a counter argument will reach the convert's ears, or that warnings from friends will be a problem. Incidently, wouldn't it also make sense that the one willing to give up friendships and acquaintances probably lacks substantial and rewarding involvement with others in the first place?

Sociologist James A. Beckford revealed evidence of predisposing conditions4 in a study of JWs conducted in Britain (1975). He found the second condition in rank of importance that allows for a positive view of the JWs (before the book study even takes place) was a secular occupation in volving little contact or interaction with the public or co-workers. The initiate would thus be missing important contacts with friends and workers for information and comparison. Another predisposing condition found was social isolation from others outside the family and work place. Truly, this lack of ties facilitates the absence of anti-Witness arguments, ideas, and data during the decisional conflict period. Beckford (p.183) writes: "Lack of enduring ties with social groups outside the family and work place implies that prospective converts have very little social support for their own ideas or for any resistance that they may wish to present to the arguments and blandishments of evangelists [JWs]. Social isolation may also have the direct consequence of heightening the pleasure to be derived from the opportunity of having regular home visits from Publishers [JWs] who appear to be genuinely concerned for one's personal welfare."

They Are Right, It Must Be Satan!

A second method the Witnesses use in the decisional conflict stage which eventually blinds the initiate from an investigation, is that the book study material directly discourages examination. "Apostate" literature is anything written which is critical of the Watchtower Society or their teachings. This is clearly demonstrated in the March 15, 1986 Watchtower magazine. Under the heading, "Have No Dealings With Apostates," it reads: . . . For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: `It won't affect me; I'm too strong in the truth. And besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.' In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt." (p. 12)

As a result of this mentality being instilled in the initiate, he often declines seeking any information other than Watchtower publications (whereas the statement just quoted ought to be a cue to the wary reader who recognizes that avoiding information and contact with outsiders is a common trait of cults--Zimbardo, Ebbesen, Malach, 1977; Lifton, 1963). Hence, the potential JW convert becomes isolated to JW publications exclusively.

Even more incredible is the Watchtower's emphasis on "avoiding independent thinking." Although the prospective convert may not come upon such statements in his initial readings, it will be the thinking patterns his Witness teacher is subtly persuading if not explicitly directing. I[b]n the January 15, 1983 Watchtower (p. 27) a whole section of an article is entitled, "Fight Against Independent Thinking." This serious crackdown on free thinking and behavior is enforced today when the Society must deal with JWs who are more than ever questioning and doubting the movement. This ultimate command of loyalty is a necessary last resort to maintain control over the Witnesses' lives.[/b]

Their final and often most persuasive teaching is that Satan will persecute the initiate through friends and family who don't want him to find the truth. The Witnesses imply that persecution and doubt is the very sign that you must have found the right religion, so they warn not to succumb to it and fall prey to false teachings. This may be their most effective tool in terms of getting the convert to believe that he shouldn't investigate or question the Watchtower Society.

How Can You Find It If You Don't Look?

A third condition limiting an examination of the Watchtower cult during the decisional conflict stage is the very lack of information available to investigate. There is a lot of literature, books, tapes, and tracts exposing the teachings and history of the JWs, but it is often not as easy to find it at the exact time the initiate needs it. Even the libraries sometime lack any books on JWs. And if the prospective convert seeks clergy help (as is not often the case), he may be disillusioned that even they don't have an answer to every doctrine and issue in life like the Witnesses pretend to have. Hence, when the inner turmoil (dissonance) becomes overbearing, the case against the JWs is often waning at the very time the intense book study catered to his home is persisting. No wonder the path of least resistance is often to continue studying with the Witnesses!

You Made Your Decision, Now You Are Stuck With It!

Much can be gained from the behavioral sciences as to how to most effectively deter one from joining the Watchtower cult. The importance of acting fast in providing objective counter-cult materials during the informational weighing, decisional conflict period cannot be overstated. Personal contact as well as material intervention is most important. As was pointed out, a decision must be made by the initiate to avoid dissonance. Once formed, it quickly becomes elevated and highly resistant to change.

What happens if later (after the initiate has fully become a Witness) he is presented with countercult materials or arguments? Most likely the Witness will be motivated to blindly disregard them, for to honestly consider them would bring back an occurrence of that extremely unpleasant feeling of dissonance--the guilt of not making a fully-informed decision. After his personal investment and suffering and hours of acting like a Witness, it becomes increasingly difficult to reason that he was wrong as the months go on. He may be tempted to reason: "I'm afraid to look, what if I find out I am wrong?" In fact, dissonance theory predicts that when a JW finds a true discrepancy in his belief system, rather than facing the truth, he may blatantly ignore it by suppressing or at most redefining his beliefs. Although he has the choice of abandoning his faith, this would be too much of a strain to contemplate. This can be illustrated with regard to failed Watchtower prophecy.

Bryan Wilson (1978) utilized Leo Festinger's cognitive dissonance theory to examine the failed 1975 prophecy. The JWs expected the end of the world to occur in 1975. Instead of abandonment of belief after the long awaited date passed, reinterpretation was necessary. The point is that despite the obvious failed prophecy, annual growth did actually continue in 1976 in all of the principal countries but six. Whether growth was caused by all new members or the addition of some new members on top of existing JW adherents is yet to be known. But there was renewed growth. The Witnesses could only redefine and rededicate themselves to the cause they gave their lives to. Wilson writes: "Reinterpretation does not demand that mistakes or disappointments should be denied: indeed, error can be frankly admitted and disappointment acknowledged as part of the reaffirmation of faith. The expiation of error, and perhaps fleeting doubt, may indeed demand vigorous rededication to the cause, and, if the sect is at all given to proselytizing, to renewed commitment to field activities." (pp. 183-184) Bryan Wilson is noted among sociologists studying religion. He mentions that similar to the 1975 miscalculation was the 1914 failed end-of-the-world prophecy. Again, reinterpretation was necessary followed by rededication. Very much related to this cognitive dissonance phenomenon is that after a Christian has enabled a JW to see gross flaws in the Watchtower facade, the JW often becomes more adamant about his waning beliefs. It is very common to confront a JW with overwhelming arguments against their organization, only to have the JW come back a week later and say, "I'm glad I talked to you, as it gave me an opportunity to bolster my faith. Now I am more convinced than ever I am right."

What Do You Call It?

So, do potential JW converts go through a brainwashing process? It must be realized that brainwashing does not have to be mysterious, involve coercive mind control tactics, nor require drugs or hypnosis. Whether brainwashing techniques are so radical has been questioned by researchers (Schein, Schneier, & Barker, 196l; Szasz, 1976). Indeed, a model of brainwashing based on a traditional social-psychological study of intentional social influence and sociological conditions (as discussed throughout this paper) has been aptly described (Lifton, 1963; Zimbardo, Ebbesen, & Maslach, 1977). What do you call it?

Footnotes:

# 1. cognitive dissonance: knowing one is not in harmony with his own beliefs; the perception of disharmony or controversy.

# 2. attitude-discrepant behavior: unusual behavior resulting from a discrepancy or disharmony in one's attitude towards something.

# 3. called postdecisional dissonance) because of the obvious unsettled benefits (lingering personal doubts).

# 4. conditions existing beforehand that affect one's decision.

References:

# Aronson, E., & Mills, J. The effect of severity of initiation on liking for a group. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 1959, 59, 177-181.

# Beckford, J. A. The Trumpet of Prophecy. New York: A Halsted Press Book, 1975.

# Brehm, J. W. Post-decision changes in desirability of alternatives. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 1956, 52, 384-389.

# Byrne, D., & Rhamey, R. Magnitude of positive and negative reinforcement as a determinant of attraction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1965, 2, 884-889.

# Converse, J., Jr., & Cooper, J. The importance of decisions and freechoice attitude change: A curvilinear finding. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 1979, 15, 48-61.

# Festinger, L. A theory of cognitive dissonance. Evanston, Ill.: Row, Peterson, 1957

<>LI>Gerard, H. B., & Mathewson, G.C. The effects of severity of initiation on liking for a group: A replication. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 1966, 2, 278-287.

# Higgins, E.T., Rhodewalt, F., & Zanna, M. P. Dissonance motivation: Its nature, persistence, and reinstatement. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 1979, 15, 16-34.

# Insko, C. Verbal reinforcement of attitude. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1965, 2, 261-623

# Knox, R.E., & Inkster, J.A. Postdecisional dissonance at post time. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1968, 8, 319-323.

# Lifton, R.J. Thought reform and the psychology of totalism: A study of brainwashing in China. New York: Norton, 1963.

# Riess, M., & Schlenker, B.R. Attitude change and responsibility avoidance as modes of dilemma resolution in forced-compliance situations. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1977, 35, 21-30.

# Schein, E.H., Schneier, I., & Barker, C. H. Coercive persuasion. New York: Norton, 1961.

# Szasz, T. Patty Hearst's conversion: Some call it brainwashing. The New Republic, 1976, 174, 10-12.

# Wicklund, R.A., & Brehm, J.W. Perspectives on cognitive dissonance. Hillsdale, N.J.: Erlbaum, 1976.

# Wilson, B. When prophecy failed. New Society, 1978, 43, 799, Jan 26, 183-184.

# Younger, J.C., Walker, L., & Arrowood, A.J. Postdecisional dissonance at the fair. Personality and Social Psychology, 1979, 37, 284-287.

# Zimbardo, P., Ebbesen, E.B., & Maslach, C. Influencing attitudes and changing behavior (2nd ed.). Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley, 1977




Please be careful.

Chris: you've done Perrito a lot of good.

The website: www.freeminds.org/ referenced in your post is an invaluable source for JW-related material.

This link: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/doctrine.htm deals with Watchtower Doctrines.

You'll see that Mormons have certain practices similar to the JWs; this isn't strange, since they're both high control groups.

Other wacky stuff could be found at this link: http://www.seanet.com/~raines/papers.html

Some items from here:

The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts: A History of Watchtower Cowardliness and Witness Perseverance

The Watchtower's Half-Century Crusade Against the Germ Theory

Jehovah's Witnesses, Blacks and Discrimination,

Why Jehovah's Witnesses Have Mental Problems,

Aluminum: Satan's Metal and Killer of Millions? The Watchtower's Incredible Crusade Against Aluminum

Very much related to this cognitive dissonance phenomenon is that after a Christian has enabled a JW to see gross flaws in the Watchtower facade, the JW often becomes more adamant about his waning beliefs.  It is very common to confront a JW with overwhelming arguments against their organization, only to have the JW come back a week later and say, "I'm glad I talked to you, as it gave me an opportunity to bolster my faith.  Now I am more convinced than ever I am right."

The above, from the article you posted, is brilliance. ambrose Bierce gave a witty, succint description, but memory isn't serving right now.
.

Pilgrim 1,

Thanks for that recap. I'm still too lazy to read up the whole bunch, but I can at least attend to the explanation you gave.

Firstly, from scriptures, I know that Jesus slept when he died like every dead person.

Secondly, Jesus didn't go to hell like some (e.g Copeland) have errornoeusly preached. He went to hades, the place of the dead.

An attempt to explain 1Pet 3:19-20 will be that he went to declare his victory to fallen angels. Still, I will rather be silent in this area.


Thirdly, I don't agree with your submission on Luke 16:26

The pattern of Jesus' stories can't be taken as something literal. We have other stories like the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son that doesn't seem like real life experiences either. What we do with such stories is to pick the lesson from it.

What Jesus is passing across in the story in Luke 16: 20 - end is in Vs 29;

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

From the story, we see that there is a warning that there is a final judgement coming upon all flesh and God has provided himself enough witnesses, as such we do not need 'spirits' - extra biblical revelations to tell us about the gospel of Christ.

Extra biblical revelations is responsible for a lot of false teachings in the body today.

My dear, I will advise that we all stick to what is plain in scriptures and the others that are not too clear, we should leave till we meet face to face with Jesus when nothing will be hidden.

Hi naomijt,

Many thanks for your response. It's refreshing to read your thoughts and see how we all have varying shades of understanding.

naomijt:
Secondly, Jesus didn't go to hell like some (e.g Copeland) have errornoeusly preached. He went to hades, the place of the dead.

Well, if we read the KJV of Acts 2:27-31, the word used there is 'Hell', and this has caused some problems for many people. Actually, the Greek word (as we all now know) is "hadēs" (αiδης). However, the sad thing about this is the way some have taught and interpreted that passage - as Copeland did.

naomijt:
Thirdly, I don't agree with your submission on Luke 16:26

The pattern of Jesus' stories can't be taken as something literal. We have other stories like the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son that doesn't seem like real life experiences either. What we do with such stories is to pick the lesson from it.

The parables in many instances point to real life situations, such as the Prodigal Son and the Samaritan. That they are parables does not mean they don't seem like real life experiences - as in the case of the prodigal, we know many people who have gone down that road and after a while returned home. So many instances of this could be harvested in real life, but perhaps two would suffice: (a) Ron Kenoly and (b) Billy Graham - these two men have known firsthand the pain of parents when their sons turn away from God and leave home. However, it is great that they returned home, were embraced by their families, now serving God. . and that incident was the theme of one of Ron Kenoly's songs, 'Welcome Home' remember?

Anyway, some of the parables may seem to many as mere allusions and not relating to real life experiences.

naomijt:
What Jesus is passing across in the story in Luke 16: 20 - end is in Vs 29;

From the story, we see that there is a warning that there is a final judgement coming upon all flesh and God has provided himself enough witnesses, as such we do not need 'spirits' - extra biblical revelations to tell us about the gospel of Christ.

Extra biblical revelations is responsible for a lot of false teachings in the body today.

That's true, and in relation to Matthew 27:52-53 perhaps that was what IDINRETE was asking me to enuciate (I may be wrong, though)?

However, it does not playdown the importance of the previous verses before v. 29 of Luke 16. If we look at the principle of 2 Peter 1:20, we find that Scripture is best understood as we compare verses on a subject, instead of seeking to take them in isolation. To this end, one may ask several questions such as:

* does the spirit of man depart his body at death?

* is the spirit of man conscious after the death of the body?

* what happens to the body at death?

* what happens to the incorporeal parts (spirit/soul) at death?

* if the incorporeal parts survive death, where do they go?

Several other questions could be proffered; but what is important is that the Bible has answers to these questions - some of which have been highlighted already. We may come off with some wrong notions if we isolate verses and just seek interpretations based only on singular verses. However, as we compare verses with verses, we get a full picture of these matter.

That is why some have read only Ecclesiastes 9:5 and inferred that there's no existence beyond the grave ("but the dead know not any thing". However, these same people fail to understand that the same Ecclesiastes declares that "the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). The question then is: are the spirits conscious of anything at all beyond the grave? While some say No, my answer is yes.

How is that possible?

There are so many allusions to this point in both the OT and NT. But basically, the statement of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:32 says it all - "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." I deduce from that (in connection with other verses), that those who are regarded as "dead", are actually "living" - but it just is a matter of existence in another realm altogether.

naomijt:
My dear, I will advise that we all stick to what is plain in scriptures and the others that are not too clear, we should leave till we meet face to face with Jesus when nothing will be hidden.

Granted. As we seek these matters from Scripture, that same exercise is what we will help us determine whether someone is holding flawed assumptions or honest convictions.

Blessings.

pilgrim.1:
Hi naomijt,

Many thanks for your response. It's refreshing to read your thoughts and see how we all have varying shades of understanding.

Well, if we read the KJV of Acts 2:27-31, the word used there is 'Hell', and this has caused some problems for many people. Actually, the Greek word (as we all now know) is "hadēs" (αiδης). However, the sad thing about this is the way some have taught and interpreted that passage - as Copeland did.

The parables in many instances point to real life situations, such as the Prodigal Son and the Samaritan. That they are parables does not mean they don't seem like real life experiences - as in the case of the prodigal, we know many people who have gone down that road and after a while returned home. So many instances of this could be harvested in real life, but perhaps two would suffice: (a) Ron Kenoly and (b) Billy Graham - these two men have known firsthand the pain of parents when their sons turn away from God and leave home. However, it is great that they returned home, were embraced by their families, now serving God. . and that incident was the theme of one of Ron Kenoly's songs, 'Welcome Home' remember?

Anyway, some of the parables may seem to many as mere allusions and not relating to real life experiences.

That's true, and in relation to Matthew 27:52-53 perhaps that was what IDINRETE was asking me to enuciate (I may be wrong, though)?

However, it does not playdown the importance of the previous verses before v. 29 of Luke 16. If we look at the principle of 2 Peter 1:20, we find that Scripture is best understood as we compare verses on a subject, instead of seeking to take them in isolation. To this end, one may ask several questions such as:

I just love that statement. Needed to point it out.

Pls don't get me wrong on the story/parable issue. What I mean is that you cannot interprete them word for word because they have a hidden message. The message is what is important to us.

The idea of a close proximity between heaven and hell that people present in that passage is not consistent with scriptures. (View my first post on this topic). Are u saying heaven and hell is that close? And if the dead are asleep, how come Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham were having a discussion. Like i said earlier, the message is what is important.

I will get back on the questions you asked soon.

Cheers!!!

naomijt:
The idea of a close proximity between heaven and hell that people present in that passage is not consistent with scriptures. (View my first post on this topic). Are u saying heaven and hell is that close? And if the dead are asleep, how come Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham were having a discussion. Like i said earlier, the message is what is important.

I will get back on the questions you asked soon.

Lol, No. . I did not mean to say or imply that heaven and hell were that close. In my entries on this subject, there is only one thing that I have had to rethink carefully - paradise. I am still researching on what it is, and where that sphere is located; though, it does not mean that I had totally abandoned my perceptions on it - just that the new shades of interpretations on previous entries from others have made me think deeply about my assumptions.

That said, my persuasions have been that when people depart this world, they do not all go to the same place. Whatever the spheres they arrive at, it is not the place of final judgement (the Lake of Fire) nor heaven itself. In hades, the wicked dead experience torments as described in the Bible; and the blessed dead are in a different experience not involving the torments - but that does not mean that they are in heaven as yet.

Look forward to your thoughts to come.

Regards.

Your questions:

* does the spirit of man depart his body at death?

: The Bible does not say

* is the spirit of man conscious after the death of the body?

[b]: No; there is no consciousness in death (Psa 115:17; Eccl 9:5)[/b]

* what happens to the body at death?

: It disintegrates back to dust (Gen 3:19)

* what happens to the incorporeal parts (spirit/soul) at death?

: Apart from the fact that the incorporeal parts are said to be unconscious (asleep), the Bible doesn't tell us much more

* if the incorporeal parts survive death, where do they go?

: Hades, used to refer to death itself, or the state of death. But it is a state of unconsciousness, as seen from other scriptures.

As you must have noticed, where scripture is silent, I prefer to be silent.

Trying to find to almost everything sometimes leads us into trouble. We usually reach a dead end.

Knowledge is important in our walk with God, knowledge of scriptures. However, let's stick to the things that are clearly stated and that agrees with the general theme of scriptures.

Cheers!!!

P.S
jus seeing ur response. . .

I will be back

Hell fire is real BUT IT IS NOT PRESENTLY BURNING!!!

Those that try to make the assumption that it is somewhere burning need to study their Revelations well-especially for the time and seasons of various events.

Many envangelists use this {truly} to scare people to accepting the Christain faith-which is unneccesary.

Instead of convincing someone about God's love to win him to Christ, why do you need to paint a picture that God does not send burning you to pieces!!!

And for a former bad boy like me. such threats dont do much!!!

naomijt:
Your questions:

* does the spirit of man depart his body at death?

: The Bible does not say

* is the spirit of man conscious after the death of the body?

[b]: No; there is no consciousness in death (Psa 115:17; Eccl 9:5)[/b]

* what happens to the body at death?

: It disintegrates back to dust (Gen 3:19)

* what happens to the incorporeal parts (spirit/soul) at death?

: Apart from the fact that the incorporeal parts are said to be unconscious (asleep), the Bible doesn't tell us much more

* if the incorporeal parts survive death, where do they go?

: Hades, used to refer to death itself, or the state of death. But it is a state of unconsciousness, as seen from other scriptures.

As you must have noticed, where scripture is silent, I prefer to be silent.

Trying to find to almost everything sometimes leads us into trouble. We usually reach a dead end.

Knowledge is important in our walk with God, knowledge of scriptures. However, let's stick to the things that are clearly stated and that agrees with the general theme of scriptures.

Cheers!!!

P.S
jus seeing ur response. . .

I will be back

I've seen you riposte and will take time to point out a few things for your consideration as well. Thanks again and cheers.

@naomijt,

Okay, dear sis. . . I didn't want to rush to post a reply to the points you had raised; that's why I had to take the time and go back to recheck my assumptions from the Word and see if they had any substance. Rather than assert anything, I would like to just point them out and ask what your thoughts are:

naomijt:
Your questions:

* does the spirit of man depart his body at death?

: The Bible does not say

Okay, perhaps you may want to have a look at a few statements which the Bible does make about this issue:

■   Gen. 35:18
     And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)
     that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

■   Moses had died and been buried (Deut. 34:5-6)
                     but he appeared at the transfiguration without his body (Matt. 17:3)

■   1 Kings 17:21-22 - when Elijah prayed that the soul of the child
                     should "come into him again", it is clear that the body was there,
                     but the soul was not in the body

naomijt:
* is the spirit of man conscious after the death of the body?

[b]: No; there is no consciousness in death (Psa 115:17; Eccl 9:5)[/b]

Have you considered that the dead actually exist in a different sphere and are very conscious of their state in that realm? Indeed, in Eccl., the preacher was referring to things as appertains what happens "under the sun" (eg., Eccl. 9:3 - one event happen to all). But what does the same preacher say in that same book?

■   Eccl. 12:7 -
     Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
     and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Compare this with statements in that same book confirming that the preacher knew that man's body and spirit are separated at death:

■   Eccl. 3:20-21 -
     All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
     Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
     and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

So, is there a consciousness beyond death? There's still more that could be shared on that - and I shall come back and share them.

pilgrim.1:
@naomijt,

Okay, dear sis. . . I didn't want to rush to post a reply to the points you had raised; that's why I had to take the time and go back to recheck my assumptions from the Word and see if they had any substance. Rather than assert anything, I would like to just point them out and ask what your thoughts are:

Okay, perhaps you may want to have a look at a few statements which the Bible does make about this issue:

■   Gen. 35:18
     And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)
     that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

■   Moses had died and been buried (Deut. 34:5-6)
                     but he appeared at the transfiguration without his body (Matt. 17:3)

■   1 Kings 17:21-22 - when Elijah prayed that the soul of the child
                     should "come into him again", it is clear that the body was there,
                     but the soul was not in the body

I was actually wathing out for your responses.

1. Moses' "appearance" at the transfiguration does not have to be literal. A vision is not literal but a pictorial/visual presentation of information

2. So far, we have evidence that suggests that the soul leaves the body. But Scripture says it goes to hades, the place of the dead. And it is a place of unconsciousness.

3. Does the spirit of man depart his body at death? Maybe; seeing that soul and spirit are often intertwined. And really, it's pretty difficult to seperate the spirit and soul. When the spirit departs, the soul dies simply because is at the entrance of the spirit that the soul came to be: "man became a living soul" Gen2:7

The spirit came from God in the first place i.e. at creation and at birth, but does that mean it was conscious before birth or creation? Is a baby conscious before conception? No. That the spirit returns to God does not in anyway suggest consciousness. Thanks

@naomijt,

Thanks for your observations.

naomijt:
I was actually wathing out for your responses.

1. Moses' "appearance" at the transfiguration does not have to be literal. A vision is not literal but a pictorial/visual presentation of information

Well, if it were just a "vision" they had, the transfiguration would not have been literal as well. But did it suppose that the appearance of Moses and Elijah were "visions" or "pictorial"? I believe that the fact to the case was in their directly speaking with the Lord Jesus (Matthew 17:3 - Moses and Elias talking with him). Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31; and as in verse 30, "there talked with him two men".

It does not seem that it was a matter of "visions", but a literal phenomenon.

naomijt:
2. So far, we have evidence that suggests that the soul leaves the body. But Scripture says it goes to hades, the place of the dead. And it is a place of unconsciousness.

3. Does the spirit of man depart his body at death? Maybe; seeing that soul and spirit are often intertwined. And really, it's pretty difficult to seperate the spirit and soul. When the spirit departs, the soul dies simply because is at the entrance of the spirit that the soul came to be: "man became a living soul" Gen2:7

Okay, which brings us to your acknowledgement that indeed the spirit (or soul) departs from the body at death. No question about that. The other matter that needs attention is -

naomijt:
The spirit came from God in the first place i.e. at creation and at birth, but does that mean it was conscious before birth or creation? Is a baby conscious before conception? No. That the spirit returns to God does not in anyway suggest consciousness. Thanks

The first question I would be asking here is this: if Moses and Elijah could appear and talk with Jesus long after their departure from earth, where or how could understand that their souls or spirits "died"?

pilgrim.1:
@naomijt,

Thanks for your observations.

Well, if it were just a "vision" they had, the transfiguration would not have been literal as well. But did it suppose that the appearance of Moses and Elijah were "visions" or "pictorial"? I believe that the fact to the case was in their directly speaking with the Lord Jesus (Matthew 17:3 - Moses and Elias [b]talking with him). Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31; and as in verse 30, "there talked with him two men".[/b]

It does not seem that it was a matter of "visions", but a literal phenomenon.

Okay, which brings us to your acknowledgement that indeed the spirit (or soul) departs from the body at death. No question about that. The other matter that needs attention is -

The first question I would be asking here is this: if Moses and Elijah could appear and talk with Jesus long after their departure from earth, where or how could understand that their souls or spirits "died"?

Well. . .

I think this is where the discussion will end since we both don't agree on some key factors. I don't really know your believe about your Visions and the like.

Some things are better discussed with clear understanding of some terms, but I will leave u with this. I just hope it helps.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [b](hades)[/b] , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Clear understanding of scriptures tell us what Peter is saying here. David defnitely wasn't talking about himself cos his body has seen corruption and his spirit is in hades - place of the dead unconscious.

@naomijt,

naomijt:
Well. . .

I think this is where the discussion will end since we both don't agree on some key factors. I don't really know your believe about your Visions and the like.

Some things are better discussed with clear understanding of some terms, but I will leave u with this. I just hope it helps.

Well, I don't know what I said to draw this to a close. I heed your offer though.

naomijt:
Clear understanding of scriptures tell us what Peter is saying here. David defnitely wasn't talking about himself because his body has seen corruption and his spirit is in hades - place of the dead unconscious.

Okay, so afterall we know that the spirit departs from the body at death?

Regards.

Regards

Too bad . . .

Perrito4u never returned . . .

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a serious potential recruit. . .

And after he legally signs his rights away - definitely without knowing what he was signing - he'd have blocked all avenues for redress . . .
.

He made his choice, is that what life is all about.

He made his choice, is that what life is all about.

@post
Does it really matter?? does it?? i guess i have to start a thread that will treat all this questions once and for all, i am quite new to this section but i have a book on all the questions i see here, i guess all this question has only one answer!! this i will look for a way to express very soon!! very very soon!!the jurisprudence f the living oracle is quite simple, though the ways of the lord is a mystry but what he has revealed has long been simplified, that is what i intend to reveal soon!! WACTH OUT!!

Chrisbenogor:
He made his choice, is that what life is all about.

Yeah, life's partly about making choices; but it's a shame to make a life-changing decision without having all the important details sorted out. In my discussions with JWs, this is the major charge I lay before them: their non-disclosure of the most important facts.

I do not say JWs do this due with malicious intent; in fact, they do it - for those of them who're aware - while believing they're saving the person from sternal destruction. But, of course, terrible atrocities have been committed in the name of God; so that reason is suspicious at best.
.

Resurrected by me