@pilgrim
My questions here were not meant to rehash anything but just to put an idea across and would appreciate it if you see it as that. They were in response to this

A lot of people today are looking for some esoteric form of "god" whom they have made in their image and then sit uncomfy when they read such passages or about the wars in the Bible. I know - human nature is today to complacent to stand in the face of such issues, and while fingers are being pointed at the same God, none of you stops for a moment and wonder about the brutality of man in crucifying the very Son of God on the Cross.

I believe this is not the first time you are hammering about the brutality of man either.
I will leave the rather rude part of your reply and press on with the general Idea which is that there is no way the thoughts and biases of Man did not find its way into the bible.
There is not way that the bible can be perfect, we were both talking to perrito4u on the other thread and you could see how easily the biases of man can be put into the bible. If it can be found that man is bias when interpreting the bible then why do you think this bias would not be there with writing it?

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

I do not reject any book in the new testament neither do i reject any book in particular in th old testament. They all contain truths( especially the new testament) how ever within some of those books, the words, opinions and the biases of men have found there way in to them.

Okay, like I said, I have not attempted to define your faith for you or your heart for you. Please don't let anyone make you feel victimised as if that was an insult: it was not. However, I've heard this refrain again and again - not rejecting any book in either the OT or NT; but still not adhering to any of those books. Do you see the dilemma for such people?

The reason why I asked was simple: if you allow me, let me make a small pointer here.  The whole issue here about the "influence of man" is about the wars, deaths, killings, etc in the Bible. That is often the case for people who take such views of a "yes and no" to Scripture. But my problem with that is this: which ones then qualify as God's Word and which are not? It was in the course of a research for something else that I bumped into the guys who were distributing that HELIX mystic (let's leave that aside).

When we speak of these problems, I can't improve on [b]Jesoul'[/b]s concise answer to the point. Rather, let me only call attention to the fact that the very things which we feel irked to read about (wars, death, killings, etc) do not impugn on God's holiness and character. The way some "Christians" try to go round this is to appeal to some sense of esoterism by which they could easily evade those very "uncomfy" reading. What they don't understand is that even in the NT, they come face to face with that same God who has declared that He will mete out judgement to the world.

Now, let's say that these same people would like to remove every such line from the NT as well - what then do they have? They no longer have a fiat to the veracity of the Christian faith they proclaim they have. Why? Not that I have defined it for them, but ask them to show us what in the NT they do not accent to, they would be vague. So that I don't risk misreading you, could you point out in general those passages in the NT which you reject (since it is not the whole books)?

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
My questions here were not meant to rehash anything but just to put an idea across and would appreciate it if you see it as that. They were in response to thisI believe this is not the first time you are hammering about the brutality of man either.

I don't think I schlepp on the brutality of man in every thread when issues that do not warrant it are mentioned or discussed. Asking me to "justify" the killings - what was that supposed to mean? And how does "justifying" any killings hinge on the same issues that Kunle is trying to impress us with?

Chrisbenogor:

I will leave the rather rude part of your reply and press on with the general Idea which is that there is no way the thoughts and biases of Man did not find its way into the bible.

I was not being rude. It seems that when I make some observations (however passionately), it has become the norm to be taken as being rude or insulting anybody. Not that I hold to that style; but if you read me so, my apologies.

Chrisbenogor:

There is not way that the bible can be perfect, we were both talking to perrito4u on the other thread and you could see how easily the biases of man can be put into the bible. If it can be found that man is bias when interpreting the bible then why do you think this bias would not be there with writing it?

Lol, Chrisbenogor, please understand here that there is something that Jesoul has called our attention to several times already. INTERPRETAION of a text or message is not the same thing as the TEXT itself. The authors and the collators are not the same people, are they?

JeSoul:



  Chris you asked a similar question on the other thread and I'll give you the same answer here:

A lotta people have a hard time reconciling a loving, caring, righteous God with some of the events recorded in the OT . . . what we forget is that God is as much loving as He is fearful, as much caring as He is consuming fire, as much as God is to be worshipped, He is to be equally feared, We only get the fairy-tale description of God in most churches & in the world, they fail to teach that God disperses immense love but God also unleashes intense wrath. And we see this love and wrath all through the OT.

  So maybe the problem is with our preconceived definition of who God is and His characteristics? instead of starting at ground zero in the bible and building our understanding of God from there, the problem is we've made up in our minds a 'moral, loving' box and then tried and failed to fit God into it. God is far beyond the grasp of our human intellect, which is why we need His spirit to indwell us and reveal to our spirit who God is & why certain things He permitted seem so crazy & immoral to us.


  Pilgrim could not have said this better:

Jesoul they were other pressing issues on that thread, one thing you should have noticed in that pilgrims defence is that giving mirror images do not solve issues at hand, we are saying is God WICKED CRUEL HEARTLESS INHUMANE, this is very different from FEAR my dear, those actions were as wicked as they could come, we all know man is wicked too but is wickedness in the nature of God?.

Wicked definition
1.  Evil by nature and in practice: "this wicked man Hitler, the repository and embodiment of many forms of soul-destroying hatred" Winston S. Churchill.

That should bring us to the second part of your post, are you saying that Wickedness is part of God's nature, and about morality lets not even go there.

Chrisbenogor:

Jesoul they were other pressing issues on that thread, one thing you should have noticed in that pilgrims defence is that giving mirror images do not solve issues at hand, we are saying is God WICKED CRUEL HEARTLESS INHUMANE, this is very different from FEAR my dear, those actions were as wicked as they could come, we all know man is wicked too but is wickedness in the nature of God?.
That should bring us to the second part of your post, are you saying that Wickedness is part of God's nature, and about morality lets not even go there.

Is that not where (it seems) Kunle's argument is directing us?

pilgrim.1:

@Jesoul,

Oh well. . . he has asked me that question before and I gave him my answer. I wonder why people just like to re-harsh the same thing over and over again.

wow what can be said after reading this? Not much at all.

Lol, wetin I wan talk again? His faith no dey for Bible, but still e no reject any book of the bible. I hear. See what I said earlier about syncretism? They will never tell you that the reject the Bible - but wait a little and hear them out a bit more, and all things become clear.

I would really appreciate it if you refrain as describing me as such cuase i consider it an insult. If you do not understand my point of view you can seek clarification. the problem is that you are viewing things from a box of indoctrination. i explained to earlier that the early cristians did not use the bible as we have it today talkless of believe in it does that mean they were not christians?? Even from biblical accounts they were much better than the christians we have today. The berean christians verified evrything they were told, and that is ok> but if kunle should try and verify what he reads it becomes ridiculous . As we speak not one single query iraised as been properly addressed yet you resort to insulting me and critisizing my faith.

For clarity of mind let me state my position on the bible clearl here: I beleive the bible contains a lot of the word of God and his manifestation to man, however the bible in it's present state can not be said to be the undiluted word of God: cause saying that would imply that God either physically wrote every book in the bible himself or he dictated it word for word to the writers. It would also imply that he physically supervised the translation of the bible into the various conflicting versions we have today in various languages. But we know this is not true. the hand of man as been involved in the make up of the books of the bible from the beginning  till the compilation which was done under the political influence emperor Constantine.

Thanks for the thread Kunle, it really helps by touching on a lot of key issues. First off there seems to be no argument here that several people in the past have edited, compiled, expunged parts of the Bible to get the different versions we have now. These people may have had all sorts of motives and reasons for coming up with the final versions we have. For the claim to be made that the Bible is the undiluted word of God means God must have factored in all the editing and doctoring that has occurred to the Bible beforehand. The question is why? If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible, undiluted word of God why allow it to go through the hands of all sorts of scoundrels, The more simple explanation that the Bible is actually the writings of man's understanding of God and his nature is often quickly thrown aside by Bible apologists and fundamentalists. Again I must wonder why? Could it be because the need for faith far outweighs rationality and plain reason?

I was not being rude. It seems that when I make some observations (however passionately), it has become the norm to be taken as being rude or insulting anybody.

Then just maybe you should check why people keep saying that, its happened before pilgrim and even when I told you it was being rude you did not see it until a friend pointed it out to you.

And how does "justifying" any killings hinge on the same issues that Kunle is trying to impress us with?

Now this is a more polite way to carry on a conversation, simple put because most people do not really believe that it is in the nature of God to be Wicked and I think that is the real hinge of all these issues, if you can show kunle that God can be very Wicked, malicious and not to forget  mischevious then he might just be able to see that the OT killings and immoral behaviours are justified and that Moses was not acting on his own, which would make him believe those parts as the words and instructions of God( Kunle if I am wrong abeg tell me).

In the end pilgrim, the matter no even concern me, I do not have a perfect knowledge on this issue and I am only throwing my concerns which I belive most people (kunle, pastor AIO) do. Because I doubt if people will go to church if the sermon of the day is the God we serve is a WICKED GOD.

Tasma:

Thanks for the thread Kunle, it really helps by touching on a lot of key issues. First off there seems to be no argument here that several people in the past have edited, compiled, expunged parts of the Bible to get the different versions we have now. These people may have had all sorts of motives and reasons for coming up with the final versions we have. For the claim to be made that the Bible is the undiluted word of God means God must have factored in all the editing and doctoring that has occurred to the Bible beforehand. The question is why? If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible, undiluted word of God why allow it to go through the hands of all sorts of scoundrels, The more simple explanation that the Bible is actually the writings of man's understanding of God and his nature is often quickly thrown aside by Bible apologists and fundamentalists. Again I must wonder why? Could it be because the need for faith far outweighs rationality and plain reason?

EXACTLY

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

I would really appreciate it if you refrain as describing me as such cuase i consider it an insult.

I wasn't insulting you - I said this earlier:

      "Now, the above is not to say that I direct syncretism as a malady to KunleOshob. .
       at best, it seems that is where he had begun to be inclined while still alleging that
       others are "ignorant". We are thankful."

All the same, no insults intended - and my apologies.

KunleOshob:

If you do not understand my point of view you can seek clarification.

I have been doing so.

KunleOshob:

the problem is that you are viewing things from a box of indoctrination.

Thank you - am grateful for your humility.

KunleOshob:

i explained to earlier that the early cristians did not use the bible as we have it today talkless of believe in it does that mean they were not christians?? Even from biblical accounts they were much better than the christians we have today. The berean christians verified evrything they were told, and that is ok>

Please, from where did the Berean Christians "verify" what they did?

KunleOshob:

but if kunle should try and verify what he reads it becomes ridiculous .

No. What Kunle has told us is that his faith is not in the Bible.

KunleOshob:

As we speak not one single query iraised as been properly addressed yet you resort to insulting me and critisizing my faith.

I asked a question simply: you don't seem to have offered a pointer. Did I come back to "insult" you?

KunleOshob:

For clarity of mind let me state my position on the bible clearl here: I beleive the bible contains a lot of the word of God and his manifestation to man, however the bible in it's present state can not be said to be the undiluted word of God:

How does that square with your acquiescence that your faith is not in the Bible? Not "some", but that your faith is not in the Bible?

KunleOshob:

cause saying that would imply that God either physically wrote every book in the bible himself or he dictated it word for word to the writers.

Could you point out how many people are saying what you are implying here?

KunleOshob:

It would also imply that he physically supervised the translation of the bible into the various conflicting versions we have today in various languages.

Again, could you point out those who make that implication?

KunleOshob:

But we know this is not true. the hand of man as been involved in the make up of the books of the bible from the beginning  till the compilation which was done under the political influence emperor Constantine.

Thank you. Now could you help us point to the parts of the OT and NT which have not passed under the same rule of thumb?

@Jesoul
Plus you would see me using the word JUSTIFY, which is showing a sense of Justice, Was there and Justice whatsoever in those killings? Show me please. If there was not, then God is not a JUST and FAIR God, which will clearly contradict some parts of the bible which is part of what Kunle is pointing out.

Infact of God exists and he is wicked and malicious and mischevious, I WILL NOT SERVE HIM!

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

Then just maybe you should check why people keep saying that, its happened before pilgrim and even when I told you it was being rude you did not see it until a friend pointed it out to you.

One thing you will find about me that is consistent is my openness. Often, it is misread, but then I do not mind. When "friends" have pointed out something to me, I have never been shy or ashamed to come back and post what they point out - by chat on YIM or email - and offered my apologies. If I was not being open, why should I even have come back and done so? The thing is that so many times, those who cry victims of "bullying" and "insults" are very much at ease to complain about others, but never about when they use slobbers against others. They are congratulated for their complacency to such, but when I come back to point out what is of concern from friends, immediately everyone starts complaining that its either i'm bullying or insulting or being rude.  This doesn't mean that I would stop being open, though.

Chrisbenogor:

Now this is a more polite way to carry on a conversation, simple put because most people do not really believe that it is in the nature of God to be Wicked and I think that is the real hinge of all these issues, if you can show kunle that God can be very Wicked, malicious and not to forget  mischevious then he might just be able to see that the OT killings and immoral behaviours are justified and that Moses was not acting on his own, which would make him believe those parts as the words and instructions of God( Kunle if I am wrong abeg tell me).

Now, since I cannot do your bidding, would it not be the option now for Kunle himself to show us how God is as alleged in the highlight in yours?

Chrisbenogor:

In the end pilgrim, the matter no even concern me, I do not have a perfect knowledge on this issue and I am only throwing my concerns which I believe most people (kunle, pastor AIO) do. Because I doubt if people will go to church if the sermon of the day is the God we serve is a WICKED GOD.

If that is the sermon that Kunle would like to propose, I have said several times that it is not in my place to define his faith for him.

pilgrim.1:

Please, from where did the Berean Christians "verify" what they did?

From written accepted scripture and NOT the bible that was compiled over three hundred years later. My dear it seems as if you don't know the differnce between the bible and what is referenced as scripture in the books of the bible. I can come up with several books considered as scripture by the early christians (with evidence)that were not included in the bible today. So scripture is not necessarily = to the bible.

Chrisbenogor:

@Jesoul
Plus you would see me using the word JUSTIFY, which is showing a sense of Justice, Was there and Justice whatsoever in those killings? Show me please. If there was not, then God is not a JUST and FAIR God, which will clearly contradict some parts of the bible which is part of what Kunle is pointing out.

Okay, Kunle - Chrisbenogor has said the above in highlight is part of what you have been pointing out. Perhaps you could show us more that the God you serve is as aptly described as Chris has stated above.

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

From written accepted scripture and NOT the bible that was compiled over three hundred years later. My dear it seems as if you don't know the differnce between the bible and what is referenced as scripture in the books of the bible. I can come up with several books considered as scripture by the early christians (with evidence)that were not included in the bible today. So scripture is not necessarily = to the bible.

You have already called us "ignorant", and since you assumed that we are ignorant, that's why I asked this question : "Now could you help us point to the parts of the OT and NT which have not passed under the same rule of thumb?" Thanks.

One thing you will find about me that is consistent is my openness. Often, it is misread, but then I do not mind. When "friends" have pointed out something to me, I have never been shy or ashamed to come back and post what they point out - by chat on YIM or email - and offered my apologies. If I was not being open, why should I even have come back and done so? The thing is that so many times, those who cry victims of "bullying" and "insults" are very much at ease to complain about others, but never about when they use slobbers against others. They are congratulated for their complacency to such, but when I come back to point out what is of concern from friends, immediately everyone starts complaining that its either i'm bullying or insulting or being rude.  This doesn't mean that I would stop being open, though.

I do not question your openess or your humility to come back and apologise for things that were misread. I personally think you get "carried" away sometimes not that you mean to be malicious, but you have to know that its a two way thingy, I or others may not be able to tell all the time that you are not being malicious.

I think if we all step back and look at this issue we will find the real underlying concerns, and from my list they are
1. The nature of God
2. The effect of translations on the bible
3. The motives of those that chose the books to be put in the bible

and maybe more. I am saying if one really considers the above, certainly discrepancies would be found in the bible.

Chrisbenogor:

Jesoul they were other pressing issues on that thread, one thing you should have noticed in that pilgrims defence is that giving mirror images do not solve issues at hand, we are saying is God WICKED CRUEL HEARTLESS INHUMANE, this is very different from FEAR my dear, those actions were as wicked as they could come, we all know man is wicked too but is wickedness in the nature of God?.
That should bring us to the second part of your post, are you saying that Wickedness is part of God's nature, and about morality lets not even go there.

 Chris(& Kunle too)
. . . here let me say this: the whole problem here is really with your preconceived definition & belief of who God is or isn't. You're trying to fit God into this mental box that you've created, complete with your own standard of 'moral' and 'righteous' and any acts in the bible that don't fit into your square hole of 'good & loving', you've concluded are not 'of God'. You've deemed some OT events "too wicked" for a loving God to permit -

now my questions to you:
- what possessed you with the illusion that you can define what God can or cannot permit based on your personal beliefs or moral system?

- and by what authority do you now declare that since the God of the whole bible doesn't fit into your belief system, the bible must be flawed?

and just for kicks
- if the bible is indeed 'flawed' why is it by your standard of 'morals' that the integrity of the bible should be judged by? and subject to your leanings whether it gets approval or disapproval?

- why not jesoul's standard? which by the way believes that a truly great God can at the same time disperse immense love and unleash intense wrath because He is afterall . . . God!?

 I would be most grateful if you kind fellas would indulge me  

Chrisbenogor:


Infact of God exists and he is wicked and malicious and mischevious, I WILL NOT SERVE HIM!

Sentiments like this is what we get when man's flawed word's, opinions and biases are presented as the "undiluted word of God" and that is essentially what i am trying to warn fellow christians about. And i have no qualms about it cos if you sit down and think about it, the bible as it is today was not sent to us from God but written and compiled by mortal men with human fallacies. How do i then hold God responsible for their mistakes?

Chrisbenogor:

I do not question your openess or your humility to come back and apologise for things that were misread. I personally think you get "carried" away sometimes not that you mean to be malicious, but you have to know that its a two way thingy, I or others may not be able to tell all the time that you are not being malicious.

I am not malicious to anyone. Granted that people misread me many times; but if there's any concerns they raise on the forum or off the forum (YIM, emails), I have always tried come back to apologise or correct misconceptions. But being "malicious" is not one of them - if that is to be forced upon my person and style, no worries.

Chrisbenogor:

I think if we all step back and look at this issue we will find the real underlying concerns, and from my list they are
1. The nature of God
2. The effect of translations on the bible
3. The motives of those that chose the books to be put in the bible

and maybe more. I am saying if one really considers the above, certainly discrepancies would be found in the bible.

Discrepancies et al - I have decided to take a back bench for now and not run the risk of defining anything for anyone henceforth. This is why I have been asking questions and allowing the man himself to shed light on what you pointed out as being part of what he has been about.

KunleOshob:

Sentiments like this is what we get when man's flawed word's, opinions and biases are presented as the "undiluted word of God" and that is essentially what i am trying to warn fellow christians about. And i have no qualms about it because if you sit down and think about it, the bible as it is today was not sent to us from God but written and compiled by mortal men with human fallacies. How do i then hold God responsible for their mistakes?

It is not so much as who you hold responsible for whatever. This is what is said to be "part of" what you were pointing out:

Chrisbenogor:

If there was not, then God is not a JUST and FAIR God, which will clearly contradict some parts of the bible which is part of what Kunle is pointing out.

pilgrim.1:

Okay, Kunle - Chrisbenogor has said the above in highlight is part of what you have been pointing out. Perhaps you could show us more that the God you serve is as aptly described as Chris has stated above.

Chris as stated his opinion which does depict not mine. I know you are just being mischivious though cause i am quite certain that you know chris and i don't have the same religious convictions. The fact that we agree on a point or two does not men we share the same beliefs.

@ PASTOR AIO

This thread gives the perfect example of why I no longer use the term christian for myself.

I just want to give Kunle some encouragement from where I am sitting. No one can tell you what is in your heart. This is your own personal journey. Don't be bullied by their doctrines and aggressive orthodoxology.

Then i wonder why you use Pastor as part of your name on this forum. Or is it meant to mislead people?

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

Chris as stated his opinion which does depict mine.

There Chrisbenogor - it was not mine to assert, but his.

(edited: I don't want to misread you, Kunle, but I saw that part before posting my reply. I guess it was meant to read "does not depict" mine; but if I am wrong, I acknowledge it so and would not define your position or opinion for you).

KunleOshob:

I know you are just being mischivious though cause i am quite certain that you know chris and i don't have the same religious convictions.

I have not said anywhere that you both hold the same religious persausions - nowhere at all. Besides, I was not being "mischievous" (no insults meant) - if I had made the assertion he made as proposing that as your position, I would once again have been accused of being rude, or bullying, or malicious, or insulting someone. That is why I have refrained from posting anything and only allow you guys to define for yourselves what exactly you would like the public to hold about your "points".

KunleOshob:

The fact that we agree on a point or two does not men we share the same beliefs.

I never said so.

KunleOshob:

Chris as stated his opinion which does depict mine. I know you are just being mischivious though cause i am quite certain that you know chris and i don't have the same religious convictions. The fact that we agree on a point or two does not men we share the same beliefs.

Of course it would be so obvious if you came from the same angle as Chris and other "non-believers of the bible". However, the bible warns us to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. The only way you can get to win people to your side is by presenting yourself as though you're one of them, but subtly you begin to bring issue after issue to further confuse people so their faith in God and his word, declines. Mind you, the devil has no power, what he has is deception, and that's what he's been using to blind the eyes of people world-over.

@kunle
Are you bothered about the killings and the slave instructions in the bible? If you are then that is what I am trying to point out. We both know we do not agree on every religious issue but the points above bother me and I cannot really see an all loving God doing it.
@pilgrim
Nice of you to quote me the way you did about God not being just and fair, you missed the parts that came before it, talk about taking things out of context. How did you also miss the part he said we agree on a thing or two? Na wa.
@Jesoul
I don't know if you are a mother already, if you are then I am sure you will be able to see how heart wrenching it is when a child is killed, raped or molested.
But let me get you right, do you think that because Jericho was allegedly promised to the hebrews "Justifies" the killing of the women and the children.
I really want to indulge you on standards, but that might derail this thread completely, we are trying to ascertain if God is Wicked, so we can plug it back to the old testament
Jesoul, is the God you serve Wicked?

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

pilgrim
Nice of you to quote me the way you did about God not being just and fair, you missed the parts that came before it, talk about taking things out of context. How did you also miss the part he said we agree on a thing or two? Na wa.

Now Chris, whose quote are you really worried about here - yours or his?

If I was taking your quote out of context, I hope you saw I did not misquote yours? When I first quoted you, this was the part I quoted:[list]

Chrisbenogor:

Now this is a more polite way to carry on a conversation, simple put because most people do not really believe that it is in the nature of God to be Wicked and I think that is the real hinge of all these issues, if you can show kunle that God can be very Wicked, malicious and not to forget  mischevious then he might just be able to see that the OT killings and immoral behaviours are justified and that Moses was not acting on his own, which would make him believe those parts as the words and instructions of God( Kunle if I am wrong abeg tell me).

[/list]

I don't think I omitted anything there or took you out of context. Besides, I already knew that is what so many people will draw as inferences from what Kunle was arguing, although he was largely unaware of this - until you posted such. I also noted that you said at the bottom of that quote: "Kunle if I am wrong abeg tell me" - and that was the reason why I called his attention to it several times until he said something to that effect. He was laregly unaware of what his musings were making a lot of people to draw in conclusion - and you had been led to assume such.

To come back and allege that I was taking your quote out of context or missing out anything is beyond me. That was why after his response, I called your attention thereto and summised that it was not my assertion but his. I even went one step further to show that he might have made a typo, thus the edit in mine ("does not depict". Please tell me, in what way have I misrepresented your quote - and in what way should my responses be read as being "mischevious" (according to Kunle)?

Now, if you still feel I had taken your quote out of context, inspite of Kunle's response, is it any different now from what you posted to Jesoul? Here -

Chrisbenogor:

I really want to indulge you on standards, but that might derail this thread completely, we are trying to ascertain if God is Wicked, so we can plug it back to the old testament
Jesoul, is the God you serve Wicked?

Edit:

Even when we take a close look at what you have been pointing to, I was wondering if there was anything different from the main gist you have been proposing. Though you later asked Kunle to tell you if you were wrong; and although he didn't say whether or not you were wrong, I wondered if it was different from this:
[list]

Chrisbenogor:

Jesoul they were other pressing issues on that thread, one thing you should have noticed in that pilgrims defence is that giving mirror images do not solve issues at hand, we are saying is God WICKED CRUEL HEARTLESS INHUMANE, this is very different from FEAR my dear, those actions were as wicked as they could come, we all know man is wicked too but is wickedness in the nature of God?.

[/list]

And I saw very early in this thread that though Kunle was largely unware of the fact, it was precisely what his arguments were making so many people to think. That was why I replied to the above quote with: "Is that not where (it seems) Kunle's argument is directing us?"

Kunle may not be aware that several people were actually deducing the same thing from his argument as you have been pointing out and making of God. I noted this early enough - and even though you asked him to "tell" you if you were wrong, I don't see where he has done so. If there is anything essentially that I might have edited out and then infused my own scripts into yours, please let me know - my apologies upfront if that is the case. If not, I'm still bemused.

Cheers.

Chris,

Chrisbenogor:

But let me get you right, do you think that because Jericho was allegedly promised to the hebrews "Justifies" the killing of the women and the children.
I really want to indulge you on standards, but that might derail this thread completely, we are trying to ascertain if God is Wicked, so we can plug it back to the old testament
Jesoul, is the God you serve Wicked?

  you sound just like the Isrealites
Eze 18 "Yet says the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not fair and just! O house of Israel, are not My ways fair and just? Are not your ways unfair and unjust?"  
   
   simple answer, No. God is Not wicked. Again the problem is with you and how you've chosen to view and interpret certain biblical events and pronounced them evil and wicked. I'll continue to repeat it, the problem is not God and the bible, the problem is us and our twisted fairytale perception of who God is, instead of what the bible teaches.

I repeat yet again: you're trying to fit God into this mental box that you've created, complete with your own standard of 'moral' and 'righteous'" & you continue to read and interpret scriptures thru your own understanding, thru your own definition of what is moral & righteous for God to permit, then you make your own conclusions about the events and set them in stone . . .  hence why the truth that is God will continue to evade you.

If Kunle or Chris are feeling adventurous, I would appreciate short quick answers to the below questions

JeSoul:

  Chris(& Kunle too)
. . . here let me say this: the whole problem here is really with your preconceived definition & belief of who God is or isn't. You're trying to fit God into this mental box that you've created, complete with your own standard of 'moral' and 'righteous' and any acts in the bible that don't fit into your square hole of 'good & loving', you've concluded are not 'of God'. You've deemed some OT events "too wicked" for a loving God to permit -

[center]now my questions to you:
- what possessed you with the illusion that you can define what God can or cannot permit based on your personal beliefs or moral system?

- and by what authority do you now declare that since the God of the whole bible doesn't fit into your belief system, the bible must be flawed?

and just for kicks
- if the bible is indeed 'flawed' why is it by your standard of 'morals' that the integrity of the bible should be judged by? and subject to your leanings whether it gets approval or disapproval?

- why not jesoul's standard? which by the way believes that a truly great God can at the same time disperse immense love and unleash intense wrath because He is afterall . . . God!?[/center]  I would be most grateful if you kind fellas would indulge me 

@Jesoul
I would like to indulge you very much, please I have asked you time and time again, justify why those children should be killed according to the standards that you think are right simple.
My beliefs as to what is right or wrong says, I should not kill innocent women children. What does yours say.
Ok my moral standards are wrong and not befitting of God, please which moral standards should we use then.
Really just explain how and why those people were killed please.

What is chrisbenogor doing here?

Chrisbenogor:

@Jesoul
I would like to indulge you very much, please I have asked you time and time again, justify why those children should be killed according to the standards that you think are right simple.
My beliefs as to what is right or wrong says, I should not kill innocent women children. What does yours say.
Ok my moral standards are wrong and not befitting of God, please which moral standards should we use then.
Really just explain how and why those people were killed please.

  It seems you've assisted me in answering your own question. What made you assume in the first place that the people of Jericho were 'innocent'? Infact the scriptures remark many many times that an Isrealite king or the people relapsed from following God and "did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

  The nations that God commanded the Isrealites to destroy were not 'innocent' before God! they were evil and committed unthinkable atrocities - including sacrificing their own children in the fire, burning them alive, raping women, killing and fighting with their neighbors - these people were far from 'innocent'. And when you take into account a God is perfectly holy, that hates sin and said He will pour out His fierce wrath on sinners - does it now seem so far-fetched He carried out His holy judgement on the guilty parties?

  but the good news is God has given us a new way since the coming of Jesus. We are now under grace not that fierce wrath & judgement because Jesus died for our sins, stood in our place and received God's wrath for us, that made us forever right with God. This is the gospel brotha. A holy and just God, who punishes sin- as we see in the OT - has now forgiven us because of Jesus and His sacrifice.

@KunleOshob
You raised very important and honest concerns in your first post of this thread. I can see that you are an honest seeker of the Truth. I can also see that you have knowledge of History and you are not afraid to question indoctrination.
My advice to you is not to succumb to the spiritual highwaymen, they seek to indoctrinate everybody and make everybody religious.
The Truth is that religion, Bible and God are three different things. True Christianity is a way of life, and not a religion neither is it the practice of a book. After all, Christ founded no religion, and Christ did not right any book. The True worshipers of God, worship Him in Truth and in Spirit. The worship of God is not dependant on any religion, neither is it dependant on any book. Consider, that True Christianity existed before the compiled book which we call the Bible.

During the creation of man, God gave man the breath of life. This breath of life in man, which is from God, is the spirit in man. This spirit has the ability to recognise the Truth. It admonishes us through our conscience. This is the spirit that we should use to seek God and worship God with. Whatever this spirit in us does not agree with, we must not be forced or indoctrinated to accept that for it will lead us no way. Therefore don't give in to their attacks, and hold on to what your spirit tells you. Perhaps the spirit in you is still alive, and thats why you questions certain things.

Being scripturally knowlegable does not mean being close to God. Consider that according to scriptures, even the devil quoted to scripture and tried to use it to tempt Christ.
The Truth is that so many people have succumbed to this temptation and have condescended to the worship of the scriptures.The scriptures were written to bear witness to the Truth. One should never put the scriptures before God or the spirit of Christ in him, for such will be worship of the scriptures. The scriptures do not give salvation, which comes only from obedience to God. According to the gospel writers, the Jew fought against Christ with the scriptures. Hence according to mathew Jesus said to them:

"You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)(International standard version Bible)

You see how the worship of the scriptures can hold people back from going to Jesus or accepting the eternal Truth which gives life.

Also remember that the events and sayings on the scriptures may not be accurate since they may not have been correctly passed down. So all the sayings attributed to Jesus in the scriptures may not be correct. He may not have actually said it exactly the way it was written. And what was written may have been tampered with. Therefore the errors found in the scriptures should not be attributed to Jesus. We need to use the spirit in us in-order to be able to separate the Truth from the false.

And please do not be discouraged by those who say that you are sick. There is nothing wrong with you. I wish you strength in your seeking.

Remain blessed.