coooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooourt

@ smart , i wish to commend you on your diligence and handwork in churning out demos under short notice , but i wish to bring to your attention that those business practices are peculiar to Nigeria , Nigerians have no business ethics and are such potentially dangerous to do business with

if you are gonna do a demo try and make it as generic as possible that way u can always sell your material to someone else as it is your sweat and blood , and if someone pays for a demo , Spell it out to him that it it only a demo , make it juicy to whet his appetite and leave it at that , i feel your pain because ive bin in the same scenario and it can be downright annoying

have a generivc template for non disclosure and attach it to your demo so as to protect your intellectual property . some peole will use your demo to get jobs worth millions and theyll pay you peanuts , if ure lucky enuff for them to use for the actual job , its a sticky business so take adequate measures to protect urself , get a lawyer to draft agreements for u , iand when doing presentations , take your laptops and show them from thre , only give demos to paying clients


id like to see stuff youve donre tho maybe we can work on some things , give me a buzz on 07034774653
take it easy

1

The way 2 go abt it is that u either host the demo on d internet if it's web app and everybody can access it 4rm thier browser client anytime anywhere, u make sure ur demo never leaves ur laptop or devpt machine if its a desktop app.

1

Not if its a dynamic website. You will only b able 2 download d pages and maybe javascripts but if u r tactful enuff u can place the core part in a folder not accessible even if u use a website grabber. For instance in a Java web app, anything placed inside the WEB-INF folder will not b accessible unless u physically go 2 d machine which it was hosted.

I think every webdesigner should start with Photoshop images which they show to clients. From there they can decided what and what not to adjust.
Another alternative is to create Projector files in Flash for the clients TO HAVE, and VIEW, and ENJOY!

do you know i even sent the demo via their email no feed back from them yet, are you guys thinking what am thinking ?

@ seye some clients are smarter , because even with the flash one can still crack it. well what i suggest is you some sort of payment plan with them, like 20% upfront as soon as job is done and seen the demo you pay up. That is what most of this freelance site do if you bid for projects and get them because i am enrolled in most of the popular once.

clients , webdesigners join 9jafreelance.com peace

Well, don't make that kind of mistake, sending demos without them paying first.
@jmslimx: when I meant projector, i didnt mean the whole website in a projector file, but in the projector, light animations in presentation form that just takes the client round the whole website more like a Windows Media Tour is.

But if you have a consistent portfolio, your clients should be able to view portfolios first, and then a small commitment fee and they SIGN A CONTRACT! Something I do is I post on my website (www.nysteria.com) a link to current jobs which i syndicate through my Twitter or something.

Thats the reason why the Ad Agency collects a pitch fee of N500k -700k depending on the project,

This thread is on the third page and getting ripe for the fourth one. Keep it up here.

Just the way I said earlier, because people have their different ideologies of doing business, it will be very difficult to get the best solution to this issue. No one will accept his approach is the better. Smartness is what all should go and get at all cost. No matter how good you are, you could become a victim someday. Simply be smart, apply serious precautions to protect your interest then transact your business with great diligence.

Dear WebMasters & Developers,

My grandfather used to say that "people will call you what you call yourself". That is one of the key issues in our industry - we don't take ourselves seriously. When you are younger and you are still very excited by your craft, and want to prove yourself, you will do practically anything to get a job, even if that job is rather elusive. As a result, we frequently find situations where a designer/developer has all but finished the work without even discussing cost with his client. There are various causes of this.
1. Artists are afraid of money.
We all love to get it, but are afraid to demand it; there is something in you that tells you that you will NOT get the job if you don't agree on the price. But the fact is that, if you can't get paid for a job, you're just being used. We need to understand what we're selling - our time. We have added value to our time by developing skills, but we only have 24 hours in a day. Therefore, we have to be judicious in the use of these hours and only use them for people who are willing to pay for them. Therefore, it is very important to discuss cost before you start working. Why? Well, when you go to a restaurant, before you order the food, they show you a menu with prices! This is what you use to determine whether or not you want to continue the transaction. You don't ask them to bring a sample of the food for you to taste before you determine whether to order, so why should you be delivering demos all around town?!

2. We don't understand that it takes money to do our work
Many of us think that starting and running our business is free. Nonsense! Apart from the cost of purchasing your computer & software; you also have to ensure that you have electricity, internet connection, transport. You are the main machine in this operation, so you have to maintain yourself - food, clothes, shelter. Then you have to update your skills. It's not free. Because you don't have one factory in Apapa doesn't mean that you can work for free. Remember that running yourself costs money, so don't expect to throw work around for free.

3. We are too easily intimidated
We go to a client's office. He is seated behind a desk, the A/C is blowing in your eyes; and suddenly all your senses abandon you. Rubbish! The reason you are in his office is because you have something he needs. Stand your ground. Designing a website will cost you x amount of naira. You need to pay 30% upfront. etc. If the job is yours, you'll get it. Any client that staunchly refuses was probably not planning to pay you.

Nice one Noah69. The way you dress is the way you will be addressed. It also has a literary application.

All this talk about Demo or No Demo, is simply about the mindset of the client you are dealing with.  Trustworthy client or Not trustworthy?

As without a demo, www.studyscholarshipng.com would not have been the success it is today having only just launched on the 1st of December.

We had to work on the Demo hand in hand with the programmers until it was launched.

@noah69, i am totally in sync with your thoughts. But i believe there is a potential issue we are all not addressing here.
Yes its been proven and accepted here that it is not right to supply demos to clients at proposal stage. It is clearly undignifying to the profession.
But my point now is that if you are faced with a big client and you are confident that you have good chances of getting the job, but this client is requesting a demo at proposal stage, what do you do? Do you simply walk away and say you don't do demos or try to convince them that a simple sketch will do or etc, What do you guys think??

I understood what noah69 is trying to say, if you do a demo or not, if the job is yours is yours, but the point is if a client ask you for a demo do you simple walk away ? thats what dantee. is asking now and i think i reason with that.

Noah: bravo!

Please update your #2 to include the cost of running a gen. I know developers who run a gen for at least 8 hours a day. If you are charging 50,000 per site, unless you have 100 of such lined up at any one time, how much is fuel and how much will it cost you to fix your gen wen it goes down (cos it will)?

Good talks bro!

This thread is just very interesting. I love it.

My Good People,

The same thing happened to me when i built my first website for someone, who claims to be a good man, owning a Non-governmental organization, and based in London (but an Akwa Ibomite). After designing the site, i zipped the folder and sent to him via email, he unzip the file and had a look at it. He loved it, and asked me to upload. The mistake i did was that i didnt know how to mount an agreement that binds contracts, that is how he got away with my job. It happened when i asked him for the money (because he asked me how much it will cost, ), but after giving him my price, he argued and , whatever, i i deleted the site off the web, but he uploaded the scanty one i did when i started the design, while i deleted the already finished and nice design off his portal.

Now, the site is still inactive, nasty, and the worst thing we could ever call "a website". Check the ugly thing here: www.centre4cd.net. I am 101% covered by insurance for displaying the website, so have a look.

There is no one-size-fits-all rule for this issue. How you treat each client would depend on many factors like the client's personality, reputation, complexity of work to be done etc but the bottomline is to have a solid legal agreement to back your business dealings. This should reduce the incidence of cheating.

izi2brauz,

I think this issue pertains to Nigerian clients in general. No need naming states of origin.

Yawa, I will not say why names should not be called as in states

In other day when i posted other forum discussion talking about e-commerce site with only mentioned US and UK I named them, then someone freaked out emailing me not to mentioned the name of US/UK in the name of easily identify whose site I talked about. I did not name of the business or link provided, nothing but talk about e-commerce scripting.

I puzzled so i removed "US/UK" off my E-commerce site posting in other forum discussion to respect someone's wish. I wonder why it is so fussy about not name in the states? US/UK are too broad names over 350 million residents both countries.

Generally, there are more than 5 millions sites with over estimated 10 billions PC users globally!

I feel like this person thinks own e-commerce site (one site i mean) that no one else know about it, hey that e-commerce integration i talk about is open-source software/scripting that everyone know about it---NOTHING TO HIDE!!! LOL!!!

Is the way person feel ashamed of open-source e-Commerce site? Tell me!!! Since I can't post anything i like to suggest about free/open-source scripting on specified forum sites. (this person is not a member, just guest visitor in other forum).

Thanks Noah, unfortunately, many here are still beating around

"I will upload and save it in INF folder or something, nobody will be able to download it", Why would you stress yourself, gen, internet, time, brain on a demo
i will repeat my self

[size=14pt]ANY CLIENT WHO ASKS FOR A DEMO AFTER SEEING YOUR PAST WORKS (i meaning working once) IS TAKING YOU FOR A RIDE[/size]

you need to wake up, apart from the fact that they will be wasting your time, they are indirectly insulting you and your chosen profession
they pretend as if they are not aware that it will cost you all these.

take the restaurant example made by NOAH

even in starcomms office, they lack the guts to tell them to show them how fast their internet is so the can buy their card
they just walk in, buy and they pray it works fine.

so why would they be asking you to go and prepare a demo after showing them other websites you have done?

Great topic. This should serve as a guide to professionals who usually sell their services without as much as a drafted terms of payment.
It is not out of place to draft a 'Work-plan' which would clearly state your deliverables as well as payment terms, etc.
This goes a long way in avoiding conflicts.

My advice to you guys is not to give out a demo to anyone, if they want to see some work you have done then put it on your website.

www.churchwhereabouts.com

If i don't say a word here,  i feel like am going to choke.
@

kokorunna:

My advice to you guys is not to give out a demo to anyone, if they want to see some work you have done then put it on your website.

Put it on ur site for them to see?

================================================
NOW HERE IS MY STORY AND EXPERIENCE
================================================

Please don't get bored because its long,  u'll enjoy d story.
**************************************************

Just two weeks ago, a close friend of mine who happens to be a starting web dev called me for assistance on a site he is working for a client, they needed an advanced picture gallery on the site and he culdnt handle it. This guy was calling me like all he had on earth depends on me,  i told him to come to the office which he did immediately (this is something that wulda taken him days to come)

We negotiated,  i asked him to pay 30k,  but he pleaded to 20k,  told him 25k was ma last,  he agreed and asked me to please make up the demo so he can at least show to the client what it will luk like,  because its only then they can pay him.

I accepted,  went online,  searched for an opensource application,  got one,  configured it,  uploaded it a directory in ma coy website for him to at least show em, when he was ready, he said wat he agreed was 20k, i mumushiosly accepted o.

Just on Sunday,  7th Dec, 2008. He sent me an sms that he had handled part of that job he was supposed to pay me for because the guy was on his neck.

With rage,  i replied,  "NOW WHAT DOES THAT SIGNIFY",  he replied,  i WILL PAY YOU SOME MONEY"

Now see what someone you call a friend can turn out to be?

================================= YOU guys KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?=======================

The open source app had a back link to the website of the creators,  he followed it, downloaded a new one and configured it,  previously, i already empowered him with how the whole configuration is going to be so he can at least defend himself when need be.

Una see backstabbing? Its the fourth time an issue will arise on a deal i have tried making with him,  i wonder how come i havnt learnt my lessons.

He has arranged for a meeting in ma office tomoro,  10th Dec 2008, am still thinking of what he would want to offer me as payoff and if i shuld take the money or not.

Am really annoyed even as i dey write this thing.

Advice:::: CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS,  don't LET EM CHOOSE YOU

Fellow Webmasters / Forumites,

The one the best approach to resolve this is for the webmaster to make sure he brands himself, set a policy for his company and in the policy it must reflect that, a commitment fee had to be paid. If the client can not comply with your policy, dont be afraid to let go!

You can view my contribution to the forum here:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-205014.0.html

Thanks.

Olu Oludimu

System Administrator ; Emmanuel Communications Limited

Admin; http://www.oakservers.net | http://www.oakmediang.com

E-mail : olu@oakmediang.com | Tel: 08051614052

bug24:

If i don't say a word here,  i feel like am going to choke.
@
Put it on ur site for them to see?

================================================
NOW HERE IS MY STORY AND EXPERIENCE
================================================

Please don't get bored because its long,  u'll enjoy d story.
**************************************************

Just two weeks ago, a close friend of mine who happens to be a starting web dev called me for assistance on a site he is working for a client, they needed an advanced picture gallery on the site and he culdnt handle it. This guy was calling me like all he had on earth depends on me,  i told him to come to the office which he did immediately (this is something that wulda taken him days to come)

We negotiated,  i asked him to pay 30k,  but he pleaded to 20k,  told him 25k was ma last,  he agreed and asked me to please make up the demo so he can at least show to the client what it will luk like,  because its only then they can pay him.

I accepted,  went online,  searched for an opensource application,  got one,  configured it,  uploaded it a directory in ma coy website for him to at least show em, when he was ready, he said what he agreed was 20k, i mumushiosly accepted o.

Just on Sunday,  7th Dec, 2008. He sent me an sms that he had handled part of that job he was supposed to pay me for because the guy was on his neck.

With rage,  i replied,  "NOW WHAT DOES THAT SIGNIFY",  he replied,  i WILL PAY YOU SOME MONEY"

Now see what someone you call a friend can turn out to be?

================================= YOU guys KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?=======================

The open source app had a back link to the website of the creators,  he followed it, downloaded a new one and configured it,  previously, i already empowered him with how the whole configuration is going to be so he can at least defend himself when need be.

Una see backstabbing? Its the fourth time an issue will arise on a deal i have tried making with him,  i wonder how come i havnt learnt my lessons.

He has arranged for a meeting in ma office tomoro,  10th Dec 2008, am still thinking of what he would want to offer me as payoff and if i shuld take the money or not.

Am really annoyed even as i dey write this thing.

Advice:::: CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS,  don't LET EM CHOOSE YOU

lol you acted smart and you weren't smart enough to have remove the link back to the creator and again if i must say this just the thread a fellow member opend that says unreliable webdesigner/developer man you caused the whole gbe ge for yourself

@oludimu,  your post is really annoying ooo why this stretch link here na all your post here just same thing, hummm spamming

Hi guys,

You all have tried in your own different capacity to contribute to this thread. One most important thing is "know who you are, what you can do and what you are worth"

Make your prices reasonable and be flexible as possible to clients knowing fully well that the only reason you are into what you are doing is because of them.

Do your best at all times and don't let anyone (corporate or individual) take you for a ride.

Good luck!

@Smartsoft,

It really was so stupid of me to have left the back link there, actually, i tried removing it but it was so trickishly hidden in one of the include files, and i hurriedly thought my dog friend wont be able to bite the bone am dangling in his face. But i waz all wrong.

Am still waiting for him to call me for the meeting though. Whatchu guyz say? do i collect whatever money he offers me as pay off orrrr