Another respected and erudite voice to add to the point that 4 Play and davidylan are complete morons.

A professor of International Relations at Oxford University states that:

1) Isreal is getting away with murder because of unbridled and blind support from the US
2) Israel is using excessive brutality
3) The current war is unnecessary and illegal
4) Cease fire was a success until Israel broke the times of agreement by going into Gaza to kill 6 Hamas officials
5) Israel is using propaganda

The funny thing is that this is coming from not just any scholar, it is coming from a Jewish scholar, Avi Shlaim, who was a former member of the Israeli army. He is saying exactly the same thing I have been saying to these couple of morons that have no analytical thought process but are full of religious bigotry.


Here is the link

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1529573111

Select Tue 13 Jan tab
Play Pt 2: Economy - Gaza
From 13min onwards

Now this guys will pop in and start telling you that he and you are the morons. They are simply gone by the Zionist's propaganda, and they believe whatever they tell them without putting the issue on the right scale. They tend to indiscriminately blame Islam for EVERYTHING.

Let them not forget, the Zionist are not aware of what they are doing, in fact the Zionist view of all non-Zionist is that they are useless human beings, God created them just to fill the earth. Zionist are seeing themselves as the closest people to God, and that they are the most superior human race, etc etc. There are many similarities between Nazis and Zionism. Even the Jews differentiate themselves from the Zionists, but this handful Nigerians are die-hard fans of these Zionist regime in Israel.

@ Sagamite

Thanks for the video.

Ai Auwal, the truth is one. And they darned well know it.

Sagamite:

Another respected and erudite voice to add to the point that 4 Play and davidylan are complete morons.

A professor of International Relations at Oxford University states that:

1) Isreal is getting away with murder because of unbridled and blind support from the US
2) Israel is using excessive brutality
3) The current war is unnecessary and illegal
4) Cease fire was a success until Israel broke the times of agreement by going into Gaza to kill 6 Hamas officials
5) Israel is using propaganda

The funny thing is that this is coming from not just any scholar, it is coming from a Jewish scholar, Avi Shlaim, who was a former member of the Israeli army. He is saying exactly the same thing I have been saying to these couple of morons that have no analytical thought process but are full of religious bigotry.


Here is the link

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1529573111

Select Tue 13 Jan tab
Play Pt 2: Economy - Gaza
From 13min onwards

Well stated!

It struck me as curious when I saw and heard Oxford Professor Avi Shlaim on Channel 4 news making these comments. I looked into the matter a little deeper and I realised that there are in fact several different Jewish groups who do not support the hard-line position and actions taken by the  Nationalist Zionists, whose Likud Party has dominated most Israeli governments since 1977. The nationalists even before Israel's independence advocated the formation of a Jewish Army in Palestine that would force the Arab population of Palestine to accept mass Jewish migration to the region. It is that same objective that is being advanced in the current military action in Gaza.

I learned that there are a number of other Zionists, who although they support the general idea of the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, are not necessarily in agreement with the nationalists. There are Labour Zionists for whom the focus is on kibbutzim; the means by which Jews would escape their despairing existence in Europe, by becoming farmers, workers and soldiers in a country of their own. There are the Liberal Zionists, who although are not associated with any single political party in modern Israel, are still a potent force in Israeli politics, advocating free market principles, a free market and adherence to human rights. Then there are the Religious Zionists who tend to focus on the issues that affect the various factions within the Jewish religion, seeking to forge a bridge between secular and Orthodox Jewry. The Religious Zionists are associated with the National Religious Party and have been at the forefront of Jewish settlement in the West Bank and efforts to assert Jewish control over the Old City of Jerusalem.

I also found that there are in fact a significant number of Jews who are not Zionists at all. I came across a few websites which I found quite interesting. Here are some of them:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

anengiyefa:

It struck me as curious when I saw and heard Oxford Professor Avi Shlaim on Channel 4 news making these comments. I looked into the matter a little deeper and I realised that there are in fact several different Jewish groups who do not support the hard-line position and actions taken by the  Nationalist Zionists, whose Likud Party has dominated most Israeli governments since 1977. The nationalists even before Israel's independence advocated the formation of a Jewish Army in Palestine that would force the Arab population of Palestine to accept mass Jewish migration to the region. It is that same objective that is being advanced in the current military action in Gaza.

I learned that there are a number of other Zionists, who although they support the general idea of the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, are not necessarily in agreement with the nationalists. There are Labour Zionists for whom the focus is on kibbutzim; the means by which Jews would escape their despairing existence in Europe, by becoming farmers, workers and soldiers in a country of their own. There are the Liberal Zionists, who although are not associated with any single political party in modern Israel, are still a potent force in Israeli politics, advocating free market principles, a free market and adherence to human rights. Then there are the Religious Zionists who tend to focus on the issues that affect the various factions within the Jewish religion, seeking to forge a bridge between secular and Orthodox Jewry. The Religious Zionists are associated with the National Religious Party and have been at the forefront of Jewish settlement in the West Bank and efforts to assert Jewish control over the Old City of Jerusalem.

I also found that there are in fact a significant number of Jews who are not Zionists at all. I came across a few websites which I found quite interesting. Here are some of them:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Welcome to the light; that which no Zionist can quench!

RichyBlacK:

Welcome to the light; that which no Zionist can quench!

The whole of life is a learning process. Only he who lacks wisdom believes that he knows it all. Opinions are best formed when they are informed. My opinion on Israel's right to defend herself against Hamas however remains unchanged. Hamas is to blame for its failure to support the proposed peace process. In view if Hamas' history of violence against Israeli civilians, Israel's belligerence against Hamas is justified. It is a pity about the Palestinian civilians, but the military action was necessary in order to alter the political landscape in favour of a more peaceful future.

auwal87:

Now this guys will pop in and start telling you that he and you are the morons. They are simply gone by the Zionist's propaganda, and they believe whatever they tell them without putting the issue on the right scale. They tend to indiscriminately blame Islam for EVERYTHING.

Let them not forget, the Zionist are not aware of what they are doing, in fact the Zionist view of all non-Zionist is that they are useless human beings, God created them just to fill the earth. Zionist are seeing themselves as the closest people to God, and that they are the most superior human race, etc etc. There are many similarities between Nazis and Zionism. Even the Jews differentiate themselves from the Zionists, but this handful Nigerians are die-hard fans of these Zionist regime in Israel.

@ Sagamite

Thanks for the video.

Some lunatical and anti-semitic rants is qouted above. What crap talk.

anengiyefa:

The whole of life is a learning process. Only he who lacks wisdom believes that he knows it all. Opinions are best formed when they are informed. My opinion on Israel's right to defend herself against Hamas however remains unchanged. Hamas is to blame for its failure to support the proposed peace process. In view if Hamas' history of violence against Israeli civilians, Israel's belligerence against Hamas is justified. It is a pity about the Palestinian civilians, but the military action was necessary in order to alter the political landscape in favour of a more peaceful future.

Then again, Israel will fail. Its main goal is to destroy Hamas, but that will not happen! Hamas' continued existence is assured, as long as Israel's Apartheid occupation of Palestinian territories continues. Again, Israel will fail in it's mission. Remember I told you.

As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is no more a terrorist organization that the ANC was. Even the ANC used violence to push her agenda against Apartheid South Africa, and were promptly labeled a terrorist organization by the West. That term "terrorist" is only a political term used by the West to discredit freedom fighting groups. However, it seems that Western propaganda tools like Fox News, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. have succeeded in distorting the true nature of the conflict, hence presenting a false picture of "peaceful Israel" minding its business and angry Hamas terrorists shooting rockets at it. Nothing can be further from the truth!

RichyBlacK:

Then again, Israel will fail. Its main goal is to destroy Hamas, but that will not happen! Hamas' continued existence is assured, as long as Israel's Apartheid occupation of Palestinian territories continues. Again, Israel will fail in it's mission. Remember I told you.

As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is no more a terrorist organization that the ANC was. Even the ANC used violence to push her agenda against Apartheid South Africa, and were promptly labeled a terrorist organization by the West. That term "terrorist" is only a political term used by the West to discredit freedom fighting groups. However, it seems that Western propaganda tools like Fox News, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. have succeeded in distorting the true nature of the conflict, hence presenting a false picture of "peaceful Israel" minding its business and angry Hamas terrorists shooting rockets at it. Nothing can be further from the truth!

The fundamental mistake Hamas is making is its refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist. That position is untenable in the world of today. It is an extremist position, and it marks them out for unpopularity even among Arab League nations. Nobody, apart from some states who belong to Bush's notorious 'axis of evil' have even dared to express any form of political support for Hamas. All noises being made are in respect of humanitarian concerns regarding civilians in Gaza. Hamas is a spent force. The split between Hamas and the Fatah Movement is a continuation of the PLO/PFLP rift of the days of Arafat. PLO dominated Palestinian politics then, and its successor Fatah will dominate any new Palestinian state in the future, a fact which Hamas is acutely aware of. Hamas is fighting for its very existence and that is what Israel is trying to make sure Hamas does not succeed in doing. There is no room for extremism in the 21st Century. This is a time for moderation, reconciliation, negotiation and settlement. Fatah have grasped that firmly, and consequently enjoys the support of most of the international community. Hamas will only survive if its leaders are prepared to reconsider their position with a view to tuning down their extremism.

anengiyefa:

The fundamental mistake Hamas is making is its refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist. That position is untenable in the world of today. It is an extremist position, and it marks them out for unpopularity even among Arab League nations. Nobody, apart from some states who belong to Bush's notorious 'axis of evil' have even dared to express any form of political support for Hamas. All noises being made are in respect of humanitarian concerns regarding civilians in Gaza. Hamas is a spent force. The split between Hamas and the Fatah Movement is a continuation of the PLO/PFLP rift of the days of Arafat. PLO dominated Palestinian politics then, and its successor Fatah will dominate any new Palestinian state in the future, a fact which Hamas is acutely aware of. Hamas is fighting for its very existence and that is what Israel is trying to make sure Hamas does not succeed in doing. There is no room for extremism in the 21st Century. This is a time for moderation, reconciliation, negotiation and settlement. Fatah have grasped that firmly, and consequently enjoys the support of most of the international community. Hamas will only survive if its leaders are prepared to reconsider their position with a view to tuning down their extremism.

Hamas is a recognized political force in Palestine. Fatah is liked by the West because of the only reason the West likes any other group - corruption and a tendency to ignore the concerns of their people. Recall that Hamas routed Fatah in the last elections in Palestine. If you want to bet on it, I'm up for the challenge - Hamas will defeat Fatah in any elections coming up in the future. Remember I told you so.

Hamas recognizes the existence of the Zionist State, the only problem is that uninformed entities loyal to Hamas spew gibberish, which Western propaganda machines (CNN, Fox, etc.) pick up and twist to make Hamas look very bad. Some Zionists refer to the Hamas Charter as evidence of her non-recognition of the Jewish State. However, any Jambite who got at least a C6 in English can read and interpret that part of the Charter much referred to by the detractors of Hamas. Furthermore, Hamas has been in negotiation with Israel for years on various issues, ranging from supplies through Israeli-controlled boarders and terms of ceasefire agreements.

How can Hamas negotiate with a state it does not recognize? Should we tender a new definition for the word "recognize"?

On the violence from Hamas, yes that has been the case. However, most of it is the direct result of much larger Israeli violence. Just because a group have nice uniforms and carry the flag of a nation backed by US tax-payer dollars does not mean that that group is incapable of terrorist activities.

Any just definition of the word "terrorism" will show that the Zionist State of Israel has carried out much more terrorist actions against Palestinian civilians than Hamas can ever dream of carrying out against Israeli civilians. Yes, sending a suicide bomber to kill 10-30 Israelis is an act of terrorism, but so is dropping a one-tonne bomb on an apartment complex in a densely populated Palestinian neighborhood, killing hundreds in one blow!

When a group faces potential annihilation by a more powerful enemy, that group becomes creative in its ways and means of fighting the enemy:

1. U.S. revolutionary war: colonists (Americans) carried out suicide attacks against the red coats (British)
2. Civil War (U.S.): Confederates hatched suicide missions against the Yankees
3. Civil War (Nigeria): Biafran soldiers carried out suicide missions against Federal troops
4. World War II: Japanese airmen carried out kamikaze attacks against the U.S., to destroy her massive naval power.
5. Battle of Mogadishu: U.S. special forces undertook suicide missions to protect pilots of downed U.S. aircraft

Only when Arabs/Muslims carry out suicide missions that that creepy term comes into the picture - "terrorism".

Hamas is a pan-Islamist movement. It is essentially a religious movement, whose aim is to spread its version of Islam all around the world. Its charter declares that every Jewish person anywhere in the world is a legitimate target. That, in my book, is the definition of a terrorist organisation! Its views are extremist, irrational and unacceptable even to other Arabs and this is why moderate Arab states are silent on this and are not showing any form of support for Hamas.

The road to peace is through compromise. Hamas has no conception whatsoever of the meaning of that word. This is why for the sake of peace in the future and in the interest of a peaceful future, it is essential that Hamas are removed. And they will be. This is what any sensible peace-seeking mind in the world today should be hoping for. The proposed solution is for two separate states, not three.

anengiyefa:

Hamas is a pan-Islamist movement. It is essentially a religious movement, whose aim is to spread its version of Islam all around the world. Its charter declares that every Jewish person anywhere in the world is a legitimate target. That, in my book, is the definition of a terrorist organisation! Its views are extremist, irrational and unacceptable even to other Arabs and this is why moderate Arab states are silent on this and are not showing any form of support for Hamas.

The road to peace is through compromise. Hamas has no conception whatsoever of the meaning of that word. This is why for the sake of peace in the future and in the interest of a peaceful future, it is essential that Hamas are removed. And they will be. This is what any sensible peace-seeking mind in the world today should be hoping for. The proposed solution is for two separate states, not three.

Please, can you point me to where you saw that charter? Thanks.

You seem to conflating Al-qaeda with Hamas.

RichyBlacK:

Please, can you point me to where you saw that charter? Thanks.

You seem to conflating Al-qaeda with Hamas.

Hamas is not going anywhere. After this whole Israeli bullying, we'll see if Hamas is intact. You cannot kill a movement like Hamas, with so much local support by the Palestinian people that it trounced Fatah in the last elections, decisively! Hamas will survive Israel's attacks!

RichyBlacK:

Please, can you point me to where you saw that charter? Thanks.

You seem to conflating Al-qaeda with Hamas.

My dear friend, Hamas is purely an Islamist movement in the classical sense. Take a look here:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Even the Arab media organisation that published this document, declared categorically that it does not support Hamas.

These are all recent statements by Hamas leaders, among other statements they have made:

Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that

"Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing." Ref IHT 1 April 08

Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that

"suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08

"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref -- BBC 2 January 09
 
In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated,

"Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.

"I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them"

He maintained that Rome would become, "an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe." Ref- Fox 14 Apr. 2008

anengiyefa:

My dear friend, Hamas is purely an Islamist movement in the classical sense. Take a look here:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Even the Arab media organisation that published this document, declared categorically that it does not support Hamas.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Is this the statement you're talking about?

RichyBlacK:

Please, can you point me to where you saw that charter? Thanks.

You seem to conflating Al-qaeda with Hamas.

he hadnt even read the HAMAS charter before? What a doofus.

RichyBlacK:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Is this the statement you're talking about?

So is this the statement of a rational and reasonable person? Is this the statement of someone who claims to be interested in peace? Hamas says there can only be peace when all religions in Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims live under a single Islamic state that comprises the whole of Palestine, including the land currently occupied by Israel. They are war mongers and want to continue fighting endlessly in pursuit of an unattainable goal. A goal that you and I know that they will never achieve. So what are the options? Shall we settle for a war without end, or should we be actively looking for a way to end the conflict? The two-state solution seems to me the reasonable way to end this conflict. Hamas are the main obstacle to peace in the region.

Jews along with others (the Philistines of the Bible among them), have been inhabitants of Palestine even before Mohammed the Islamic prophet was born. The history of the Jews in that land goes back thousands of years. It is ludicrous to insist that they should not have the right to exist there. Hamas seems to me to be a bunch of crazed religious zealots. Intolerance is not acceptable anymore in this world and they should be taught that lesson.

anengiyefa:

So is this the statement of a rational and reasonable person? Is this the statement of someone who claims to be interested in peace? Hamas says there can only be peace when all religions in Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims live under a single Islamic state that comprises the whole of Palestine, including the land currently occupied by Israel. They are war mongers and want to continue fighting endlessly in pursuit of an unattainable goal. A goal that you and I know that they will never achieve. So what are the options? Shall we settle for a war without end, or should we be actively looking for a way to end the conflict? The two-state solution seems to me the reasonable way to end this conflict. Hamas are the main obstacle to peace in the region.

Jews along with others (the Philistines of the Bible among them), have been inhabitants of Palestine even before Mohammed the Islamic prophet was born. The history of the Jews in that land goes back thousands of years. It it ludicrous to insist that they should not have the right to exist there. Hamas seems to me to be a bunch of crazed religious zealots. Intolerance is not acceptable anymore in this world and they should be taught that lesson.

Let me point out to you that that statement is no an "active" statement. It is merely a "prophetic" statement.

Let me illustrate. look at the following statements:

Statement A: "I will go rob Bank XYZ next week".
Statement B: "Bank XYZ will be robbed next week".

Which of them is "active" and which is "prophetic"?

That statement is prophetic and carries no liabilities. It's like me saying the Sun will not rise tomorrow. Are you going to charge me with "attempted Sun-icide"?

RichyBlacK:

Let me point out to you that that statement is no an "active" statement. It is merely a "prophetic" statement.

Let me illustrate. look at the following statements:

Statement A: "I will go rob Bank XYZ next week".
Statement B: "Bank XYZ will be robbed next week".

Which of them is "active" and which is "prophetic"?

That statement is prophetic and carries no liabilities. It's like me saying the Sun will not rise tomorrow. Are you going to charge me with "attempted Sun-icide"?

That there is a need for you to attempt to mitigate the impact of that statement at all, clearly suggests that the statement itself is out of order! Let us quit being emotional for once and let us not view this as a debate between ourselves and adopt a must-win attitude. Let us imagine that we are impartial Judges in a courtroom. From that standpoint, it seems obvious to me that the evidence that has been presented regarding Hamas responsibility for this crisis is overwhelming. The need to have Hamas disempowered is clear. Indeed it is Hamas that is responsible for dragging down hundreds of innocent civilians with them as they fall. And Hamas will be defeated, have no doubt about it. Any resurgence will be brutally crushed.

anengiyefa:

That there is a need for you to attempt to mitigate the impact of that statement at all, clearly suggests that the statement itself is out of order! Let us quit being emotional for once and let us not view this as a debate between ourselves and adopt a must-win attitude. Let us imagine that we are impartial Judges in a courtroom. From that standpoint, it seems obvious to me that the evidence that has been presented regarding Hamas responsibility for this crisis is overwhelming. The need to have Hamas disempowered is clear. Indeed it is Hamas that is responsible for dragging down hundreds of innocent civilians with them as they fall. And Hamas will be defeated, have no doubt about it. Any resurgence will be brutally crushed.

Aight, let's come back in the May 2009 to reassess the realities on the ground. Hamas will still be in power in Gaza and nothing would have changed. Israel's current military campaign is a waste of time, as far as trying to "wipe out" Hamas. You cannot crush a movement by force of arms.

An example that may jolt you back to reality: the might U.S., with a military arsenal that will dwarf Israel's, has been talking of "wiping out" Alqaeda for over a decade now. One simple question for you: Has the U.S. succeed?

Relying on bullets and bombs to change the belief of men is an exercise in futility.

Dialogue and diplomacy, what Hilary Clinton tagged "Soft Power" has much better chances of success than the barbaric methods of George Bush and the Israelis. Let's see.

davidylan:

he hadnt even read the HAMAS charter before? What a doofus.

 
[s]tsk tsk tsk [/s]

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