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| The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 7:44pm On Apr 12, 2015 |
Am calling on you professed christians to come out and defend urselves . While I was a kid, I was made to bliv that ALL righteous persons go to heaven while the sinners go to hellfire ! This is made possible because humans are said to possess a ghost within them . BUT THE FAULTY CHRISTIANITY will still tell u that Jesus died for your sins , accepted ... My reader , there is a problem here If u dont see it, I will help u remove that religious spectacle . Goliath, philistines , sons of Amon, Sons Of Edom and many other countries that are not isrealite WORSHIP IDOLS and thus when they die they will be judged and will go to hellfire QUESTION: WHY DID JESUS CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN ? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL ?. ON the other hand ... Abraham , Noah, noahs three sons and their wives , Sarah, Abigeal , Jonathan son of Saul are good people , when they died they have go to heaven. QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS JESUS DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM ? Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind . ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication . The question is which ? 2 Likes |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 7:00am On Apr 13, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 7:56am On Apr 13, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: You're the one getting it wrong. Until Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification; everyone who died went straight to hell (sheol -the place of the dead). Everyone; including Abraham, David, Samuel, etc. Except for Enoch and Elijah, who God whisked away before death could come for them; everyone who died went to hell (sheol). No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus died and rose and gave us His righteousness. 1Samuel 28v13 -And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. This was when Saul went to the witch of Endor for her to help him conjur the spirit of Samuel the prophet. Notice that the spirit of samuel was ascending out of the earth. meaning that, even Samuel, the prophet of the Lord descended into sheol when he died. And hear what Samuel said unto Saul; 1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons BE WITH ME: Here was Samuel, a good man and the Lord's prophet; telling Saul, the evil king rejected by God; that by tomorrow, Saul and his sons will be with him (Samuel). Meaning that, both the good and the evil went to the same place after death -Hell or Sheol. Its clear however, from Christ's account of the rich man and Lazarus, that those who did good and pleased God relatively in their lifetime did not stay in the torment side of sheol. But they were in Hell (sheol) all the same. Both Abraham and Lazarus and the rich went to hell (sheol); but Abraham and Lazarus were not in the torment side. But they were all in hell. No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus came and gave us His righteous. Both the good and the evil went to sheol until Jesus came. God bless you. 6 Likes |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 9:55am On Apr 13, 2015 |
ayoku777: You have done well in your explanation but sheol is different from hell Sheol = grave, underworld, Hades (a place the dead go to after death) Hell = Gehenna in hebrew (a place of torment and final destruction) |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 10:30am On Apr 13, 2015 |
Maamin: Nope; that's not true. Kehver - hebrew for grave, sepulchre, tomb Sheol - hebrew for the place of the dead. Mnemeion - greek for grave, tomb, sepulchre Hades - greek for the place of the dead. Kehver and mnemeion mean grave, sepulchre and tomb in hebrew and greek respectively And Sheol and Hades mean place of the dead in hebrew and greek respectively. Gehenna is place of torment and final destruction; it is also the place called the "Lake of fire". No one is in gehenna yet. People enter gehenna with their soul and bodies. Only souls go to hades. Matthew 5v29 -...for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that THY WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell (gehenna). Matthew 10v28 -...but rather fear Him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell (gehenna). Both soul and bodies go to gehenna (or lake of fire), but only souls go to hades (or sheol) Only the soul of Jesus went to hades or sheol (hell) while His body was in mneneion (grave) Psalms 16v10 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (sheol), neither suffer thine Holy one to see corruption. Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (hades), neither suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Notice sheol in hebrew is hades in greek. The soul of Jesus went to sheol or hades to preach to the spirits in prison. Meaning sheol is not grave (kehver); it is the place of the dead. Also, the rich man in the parable of Jesus was being tormented in hades. Luke 16v23 - And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bossom. Its like this: Mnemeion and kehver mean the same thing -grave and sepulchre. Sheol and hades mean the same thing -place of the dead. Gehenna and lake of fire are the same place -place of eternal torment. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 12:05pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
ayoku777: You are still not far from it..i only wanted you to see that Sheol is not Hell as you have rendered it in your first post. The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing. The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight. Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23). The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell(gehenna), the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination. @OP here is why christ death on the cross matters: But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God. hope this is clear enough Shalom aleikhem 1 Like |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 12:46pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
Maamin You first said sheol is grave; I said no its not. You now agreed that sheol is the place of the dead, which is true. You now said there is a part of sheol called heaven. That's not true. There is no heaven or paradise or part of heaven in sheol. Sheol is for sinners; for everyone under the bondage of the sin of Adam. Before Jesus came; everyone (good or evil) went to sheol or hades. Those who did good don't go to the torment side of sheol. But they still end up in sheol or hades all the same. Sheol and hades are the same thing Kehver and mnemeion are the same thing -grave or sepulchre Gehenna or lake of fire are the same place. Now; that statement by Jesus to the thief on the cross; Luke 23v43 -Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. This verse has been translated wrongly. We should know that there are no "commas" in greek. English translators placed the comma before "today" instead of after it. The right translation would have been; Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Paradise is heaven; the third heaven. Not a part of sheol 2Cor 12v4 -How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words. Paradise is heaven. You don't descend into paradise; you're caught up into paradise. Jesus didn't say the thief will be with Him in paradise that day. He said "I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise (heaven)". No christian goes to sheol anymore (torment or no torment side). When christians sleep now; they go to be with the Lord, according to Paul. Unless you want to say Jesus is in sheol. Only unbelievers still go to sheol or hades now when they die. And will go to gehenna or lake of fire after the second resurrection. But don't let's derail this thread. This argument is off point from the topic of this thread. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 3:58pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
@ ayoku777 and maamin Questions 1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/when we go to sheol. 2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are? (b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go . 3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ? 4. What is ressurection? 5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment. 6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ? (b) if elijah and enoch could make it to heaven, there will be no need of sacrifice cus that means can be used by all to enter heaven right ? 7. Does elijah and enoch being in heaven not make jesus a liar when he said that "no one has ascended unto heaven ? 8 does the bible give us an idea that enoch died? And does it make mention of elijah being active as a prophet on earth after the chariot incident? Other questions might come up later, but you can help to answer these questions for now. And pls add scriptural references to ur answers . |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 6:32pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
I was hoping I've made my last comment on this thread. But let me attempt your questions. But no man is infallible; so you should also seek the Holy Spirit for answers. Because ultimately; He is the one that guides us into all truth. dolphinheart: 1. Well; before Christ died, everyone (both good and bad) went to sheol or hades. But after Christ died Paul said believers that sleep go to be with the Lord. So I believe that now, believers go to heaven and only sinners go to hades or sheol. dolphinheart: 2.(a) The bible talks about man in the sense of spirit, soul and body. But the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit not our soul or bodies; basically because we are fundamentally spirits. So I believe, we are spirits, that reside in a soul, that resides in a body. dolphinheart: Only the spirit and soul goes to heaven or hell (sheol or hades) but after the first and second resurrection; the spirit, soul and body will go to the kingdom of God or the lake of fire (gehenna). Until then the body remains in the grave. dolphinheart: 3. And how do you know there is no trial before one is sent into sheol? We don't know. Secondly; the bible never said there is only one judgment. The "later judgment" as you call it is only the final judgment. As for why the later judgment. Well the final judgment is when people will receive the eternal reward for their works done in the flesh. They haven't received it even at the point of sheol. dolphinheart: 4. Resurrection is when the dead are raised back to life, this time unto immortality. It is when the spirit and souls of the dead come back to life in their bodies; this time in immortal bodies. dolphinheart: 5. Obviously they will be in heaven now, with every other soul who heard and accepted the gospel when Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. dolphinheart: 6.(a) Nobody was heaven worthy until. Jesus gave us His righteousness. We christians have a bad habit of making assumptions and saying beyond what is written. The bible said God took Enoch and Elijah; and we went beyond what is written to say God took them to heaven. We are not being fair with the word when we make such assumptions and draw such conclusions All I know and all I said earlier is that Enoch and Elijah were the only two people who didn't experience physical death or go to sheol. Whether they went to heaven or second heaven, or tenth heaven or not would be an assumption. And I can't be authoritative with an assumption. dolphinheart: (b) As I said earlier; whether they went to heaven or not is an assumption. And we can't be authoritative with an assumption. dolphinheart: 7. You really are hammering on this Elijah and Enoch going to heaven. Something the scriptures never said and no one has acclaimed or affirmed. We can assume and claim they went to heaven; but there is plausible deniability for that claim because the scriptures never said so. God took them was were the bible stopped. Let's not go beyond what is written. dolphinheart: 8. No, the bible never said Enoch died. And about Elijah; Jesus did hint that John the baptist was Elijah. But there is debate about in what sense Jesus meant it. Was John the baptist the literal Elijah? Or John came in the spirit and calling of Elijah? I personally believe the latter; that John came in the spirit and calling of Elijah. Because if it is the literal Elijah that returned as he was chariotted away; He wouldn't need to be born by Elizabeth since he already had flesh and blood. But the debate is still open. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 7:40pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
@ ayoku 777 My Question 1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/ when we go to sheol. Ur answer 1. Well; before Christ died, everyone (both good and bad) went to sheol or hades. But after Christ died Paul said believers that sleep go to be with the Lord. So I believe that now, believers go to heaven and only sinners go to hades or sheol. My response, I requested that the scriptures be used in ur explanations and answers to my questions but you have refused to do so . Question is "what happens to man when he dies " and not "where he goes " . In other words, what is the condition of man when he dies? My question 2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are? Ur answer 2.(a) The bible talks about man in the sense of spirit, soul and body. But the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit not our soul or bodies; basically because we are fundamentally spirits. So I believe, we are spirits, that reside in a soul, that resides in a body. My response Is there any verse in the bible that says we are made of soul , spirit and body ? Is there any verse that says "we are spirits in a body" ? My question is not "what the bible tells about us" my question is based on What and if our creature directly say in the bible that we are(not analogical conclusions , but a direct statement(s) by God in the scriptures on what man is , or did our creature not say directly what man really is ? My question (b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go . Ur answer Only the spirit and soul goes to heaven or hell (sheol or hades) but after the first and second resurrection; the spirit, soul and body will go to the kingdom of God or the lake of fire (gehenna). Until then the body remains in the grave. My response. Pls add blibical prove to support or answer that the spirit and soul goes to sheol or hades . What is the first and second resurrection and who will be ressurected (pls add scriptural prove) |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 8:06pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
dolphinheart Do some spiritual home work too na. Look through the scriptures for relevant verses relating to your questions. And ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. He will answer When someone's answers don't go down well with you; its times to study to show yourself approved unto God. I have verses for everything I said and I quoted some without citing them. But I'm really tired now. Don't have the energy to compare scripture with scripture and show how I arrived at my scriptural opinion. I'm surprised you don't know of the first and second resurrection. Do some spiritual home work too. Search the scriptures. 1 Like |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 8:22pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
@ayoku777 My question 3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ? Ur answer 3. And how do you know there is no trial before one is sent into sheol? We don't know. Secondly; the bible never said there is only one judgment. The "later judgment" as you call it is only the final judgment. As for why the later judgment. Well the final judgment is when people will receive the eternal reward for their works done in the flesh. They haven't received it even at the point of sheol. My response I too have never had of man being judged twice, but the result of ur initial explanation means that man is being judged twice. first when he dies to determine which side of sheol he goes based on what he did on earth and later at your "later judgement".(pls where can I find the word " later judgement" in the bible? Or the result of ur explanation throws another twist , that man is being judged once at the point of his death and sentencing or glory come later . Whichever you think it is, pls add scriptural refference in ur response. Note: I remember one sentence ," after death , judgement " and "not after death ,judgments" My question 4. What is ressurection? Ur answer 4. Resurrection is when the dead are raised back to life, this time unto immortality. It is when the spirit and souls of the dead come back to life in their bodies; this time in immortal bodies. My response Are u saying all of those ressurected after jesus ressurection will all have physical human bodies in heaven . Add prove pls Why does the bible say that hell and hades will give up those them after the great tribulation when going by ur explanation, nobody is supposed to be there right now, talk less of later. My question 5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment. Ur answer 5. Obviously they will be in heaven now, with every other soul who heard and accepted the gospel when Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. My response When did the bible say this ressurection will or have occurred (add scriptural prove pls) So those in the bad part of hell like Cain , nimrod etc , that died before jesus and did not know jesus , have an oppotunity to go to heaven if they accept jesus gospel that he came to preach to them . And those who where in the good side of hell can still go hell fire if they refuse jesus gospel in sheol right? |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 8:59pm On Apr 13, 2015 |
@ ayoku777 My question 6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ? Ur answer 6.(a) Nobody was heaven worthy until. Jesus gave us His righteousness. We christians have a bad habit of making assumptions and saying beyond what is written. The bible said God took Enoch and Elijah; and we went beyond what is written to say God took them to heaven. We are not being fair with the word when we make such assumptions and draw such conclusions All I know and all I said earlier is that Enoch and Elijah were the only two people who didn't experience physical death or go to sheol. Whether they went to heaven or second heaven, or tenth heaven or not would be an assumption. And I can't be authoritative with an assumption. My response (merging 6,7,  I also do not believe that anyone has gone to heaven prior to jesus coming . For enoch , you are right , enoch did not experience physical death but he did die .the bible did make reference to him dying or that he died. In heb 11:1-12 , reference is made of some of the faithful servants of God which Included enoch and verse 13 states that all those mentioned died in their faith. For elijah , the bible did not state he when or how he died , but it makes reference to him performing his prophetic duty on earth years after the chariot episode . In what way did he john come in the spirit and calling of elijah? Are you say elijah as a spirit came into the body of the man called john |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Empiree: 12:08am On Apr 14, 2015 |
ayoku777:Just tell me you typed above by accident? You sure have no idea of what said. You forgot status of Abraham?. Let me remind you "father of faith" You christian people are very rude and full of blunder. You say things you have no knowledge of. Even if you are corrected you are adamant, obstinate, rebellious in rejection of faith. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 1:59am On Apr 14, 2015 |
You first said sheol is grave; I said no its not. You now agreed that sheol is the place of the dead, which is true. You said sheol is hell and that was where your description was faulty, here is the implication of your assertions. VVV :Below ayoku777: And I was only trying to differentiate Sheol from Hell for you..Strong's concordance also refers to sheol as grave for logical reasons since grave is also a place for the dead or departed. You seem to misunderstand me...read this very carefully: In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol (place of the dead) called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23). Remember earlier on that I said Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s bosom—as John leaned on Jesus' bosom at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned. The bolded is what I want you to concentrate at. Now; that statement by Jesus to the thief on the cross;This I know and very aware of..is irrelevant in our discussion Paradise is heaven; the third heaven. Not a part of sheol That was why I later used synonymous to Abrahams bossom as to Sheol (the place where departed righteous souls go to) 2Cor 12v4 -How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words.Irrelevant..and dont forget that Christ said "no one has gone up to heaven except he that was from there.."
So what are you saying that there are dead departed souls or people already in heaven presently? And who are to be resurrected in the second resurrection? Sinners alone?  This is serious..but i think I should be stopping here for now. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 3:02am On Apr 14, 2015 |
dolphinheart: Will answer this when am less busy have a tight schedule these days. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 5:16am On Apr 14, 2015 |
Empiree: I'm sorry the truth offends or shocks you. But I've only quoted what Jesus Himself said. In John 3v13; Jesus said, "And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but He that came from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." So according to Jesus; until He came and died and rose, NO MAN (including Abraham, David and all the heroes of faith) hath gone to heaven. They were still all in sheol. Until Christ died and rose and gave us His righteousness, no one was righteous enough for heaven or for eternal life. Shalom. 2 Likes |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 5:17am On Apr 14, 2015 |
Personally I don't like to over-indulge in arguments that at the end of the day won't necessarily add to Christlikeness. It begins to look like a mere show-off of bible knowledge. Maamin: Psalm 16v10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol) nor suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. This is just of one the 31 verses where sheol is translated hell in the scriptures. Sheol or hades was translated as hell in the scriptures. Just as gehenna too is translated hell. But in actual essence; sheol or hades is the place of the dead, where the souls of the dead go to. While gehenna is actually the lake of fire, where the soul and body of the sinner will end up. No one is in gehenna yet. And only unbelievers still go to sheol or hades now. Maamin: Yes that's exactly what I am saying. Believers go to heaven now when they die. No more to sheol like the old testament saints. Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better: Here was Paul, equating the death of the believer to going to be with Christ. Christ is presently in heaven, so if christians now go to be with Christ when they die; it means christians now go to heaven when they die, no more sheol. Another verse showing that; 2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD. Here you see it again. According to Paul; to be absent from the body (to die) equals to be present with the Lord. Last I checked, the Lord is now in heaven; no more in sheol. So if christians that depart from the body now go to be with the Lord; it means christians go to heaven now when they die, no more to sheol like the old testament saints. To claim believers don't go to heaven now when they die; you will need to come up with your own new interpretation of "going to be with Christ" and "to be present with the Lord". Maamin: Yes sinners alone. Only believers will experience the first resurrection at the beginning of the millenial reign. Revelation 20v5-6 -But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Only believers will experience this first resurrection. Then only sinners will experience the second resurrection. Shalom. 1 Like |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Empiree: 5:33am On Apr 14, 2015 |
ayoku777:Another blooper!. So until after your god dies and raises from dead, then all prophets and messangers that came to this world before Jesus including righteous men and women did not make heavens, right?. That's fat rolypoly lie 1 Like |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 8:37am On Apr 14, 2015 |
ayoku777: Ok fine..but I need to study more on that on my own to cross check all you have said when am less busy. Shalom! 2 Likes |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 2:21pm On Apr 14, 2015 |
The evidence that you don't ponder over your statement before creating this thread is too obvious. CAPTIVATOR: Are you a professed Christian or not? While I was a kid, I was made to bliv that ALL righteous persons go to heaven while the sinners go to hellfire ! This is made possible because humans are said to possess a ghost within them. Is it that "human are said to..." or what the scriptures say? [size=14pt]BUT THE FAULTY CHRISTIANITY will still tell u that Jesus died for your sins , accepted[/size] Why must you accept? Then see how what you accepted stands against you. ... My reader , there is a problem here If u dont see it, I will help u remove that religious spectacle. Have you removed the religious spectacle in yours first? Goliath, philistines , sons of Amon, Sons Of Edom and many other countries that are not isrealite WORSHIP IDOLS and thus when they die they will be judged and will go to hellfire Show me where you read this in the Bible? QUESTION: WHY DID JESUS CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN ? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL?. Yet you organization says people will be saved according to their good work. since people will be saved ACCORDING TO THEIR GOOD WORK, why must Jesus come to die for SIN again? ON the other hand ... Abraham , Noah, noahs three sons and their wives , Sarah, Abigeal , Jonathan son of Saul are good people , when they died they have go to heaven. Since these people were saved through their GOOD WORK without anybody died for them, what is the essence of Jesus coming to earth if we people have already been saved by good work? QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS JESUS DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM ? I can't stop laughing at your ignorance, Of what purpose is the death of Jesus since your good work can save you? Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind . ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication . Just consider how ridicule your questions sound. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 6:51pm On Apr 14, 2015 |
ayoku777: Then the righteous go to heaven doctrine is an hoax ! And if u say they went to sheo'l , it means they went to the grave , because David is still in the grave , where he decays and see corruption - reference : Act 2:29,34
To where ? they are whisked to heaven? , Why did Jesus die if these guys have made heaven ?
Enoch has had everlasting life without Jesus, or did he die?
And u belive he saw the real samuel ... Remember God has left saul and stop answering him? So, ur god speak through spirit mediums ? People who visit witches can have confidence that God speak through witchcraft ?
If this story is not one of Jesus parable ... Then rich man was judged without Jesus dying for his sin ? Why did Jesus die then , since people ar already judged ? |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by ayoku777(m): 9:29pm On Apr 14, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: Yes David's body was buried in the grave (kehver) and it decayed and saw corruption. While his soul went to sheol. David's body may or may not still be in the grave; depending on whether or not he was among the saints that rose bodily in Matthew 27v52-53. But I don't think David's soul is in sheol anymore. CAPTIVATOR: The bible didn't say to where Enoch was taken. The bible only said "God took him". Let's not go beyond what is written. And even if they were taken into heaven; we know heaven has levels, according to the bible. Apostles Paul talks about "The third heaven" (2Cor 12v2); and the Psalms talks of "The heavens of heavens" (Psalm 68v33; Psalm 148v4). But since Jesus said; No man hath ascended into heaven (John 3v13), then we can safely assume that Enoch and Elijah were not taken to paradise (the third heaven). But ultimately; where they were taken, is left to speculation. CAPTIVATOR: Enoch didn't have everlasting life. Everlasting life is not just living forever. Demons will live forever, yet they don't have eternal life. Even sinners that will go to the lake of fire will live forever, yet they don't have eternal life. Eternal life is not just living forever; it is the life of the resurrected Christ in the human spirit. No one; including Enoch and Elijah had this until Jesus died and rose. CAPTIVATOR: Yes I believe that was the real Samuel because the bible said he was. The bible said; And SAMUEL said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? -1Samuel 28v15 CAPTIVATOR: It was not God speaking through the medium or even through Samuel. It was a medium that summoned up the spirit of Samuel from sheol through the power of the devil; and it was Samuel speaking. I believe that until Jesus triumphed and took the keys of death and hell (sheol) from the devil; the devil had the power of death, and power over sheol and the dead. Hebrews 2v14 -...that through death He (Jesus) might destroy him that HAD the power of death, that is, the devil; The devil doesn't have that power anymore; that's why it said "HAD the power". Jesus now has the keys of death and sheol. So any one who claims now that he can summon the souls of the dead from sheol, is actually summoning evils spirits pretending to be that soul. CAPTIVATOR: Is there any law that says if people have already been judged and even condemned in sheol; its too late to die for their sins and overturn their sentence if they believe? Its not like they rejected Christ. They were judged according to the imputed sin of Adam and their own works, before the gospel got to them. So after Jesus died he took the gospel to them. That they were already dead and judged doesn't make hearing the gospel impossible or too late. Rejecting the gospel of Christ is what makes salvation too late after death. Shalom. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 10:31am On Apr 15, 2015 |
QuestionsFirst, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22). Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24). Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36). 2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are? Of course our creator tells us exactly what we are..we are from the dust and to the dust we shall all return, while the spirit returns to God who gave it. Gen.3:19 "19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Ecc.3:20 "20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecc.12:7 "7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." This is all I can say through the bible for now. 3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ? You are right but Heaven and Hell are greatly Contrasted, I still dont think any righteous soul will go to Hell but rather Sheol (place of the dead). You can refer back to my answer to your number 1.question 4. What is ressurection? Ressurection as define by wiki.. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection Resurrection (from Latin resurrectio) is the concept of a living being coming back to life after death. Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust. Resurrection means to be raised from the dead (John 5:28,29). The word is used in different contexts in the Bible. Lazarus was raised from the dead (John 11:43). This is a resurrection; but it is not part of the resurrection that occurs when we receive our new bodies when Christ returns (1 Thess. 4:13-18) on the last day (John 6:39-44) when the last trumpet is blown (1 Cor. 15:51-55). Lazarus died again. The resurrection of Jesus is promissory in that as we know He was raised, so we will be raised also. In that context, Jesus is the only one who has received a resurrected body. That is why He is called the first-fruit from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20-23). We will receive our bodies either at the rapture or when Jesus returns to earth. The resurrected body is not subject to death or sin. We know very little about it except what was manifested by Jesus after His resurrection, namely, that He was able to move about as He desired--in and out of rooms without the use of doors. Other than that, the rest is conjecture. Also read ( 1 Cor. 15). Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29). The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4). Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29). The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5). What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23). 5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment. I will refer you to my answer to question number 4..i think we know little on the state of their destination as to this loyal servants of God.  6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ? Just like I said We dont really know exactly the destination of these two great Prophets..according to the bible they were taking from the earth and were no more. Perhaps! They might have lived and died somewhere better than earth in sheol( place of the dead). Since they did not taste death on earth. My opinion tho!  7. Does elijah and enoch being in heaven not make jesus a liar when he said that "no one has ascended unto heaven ? Just like ayoku777 had said. That was before Christ resurrection since Christ is the first born fruit. But dont take my word for it..there might still be broader explanation for this. 8 does the bible give us an idea that enoch died? And does it make mention of elijah being active as a prophet on earth after the chariot incident? Oh yes! The bible made mention of all the faithful patriarchs dying in their faith..Heb.11:1-13..but something about verse 5 also said Enoch was translated so that he did not see death..that makes it difficult to be precise if Enoch was included in verse 13 as to their death. If its about Elijah himself being active on earth is out of my scope..have not come across such in the Bible Other questions might come up later, but you can help to answer these questions for now. And pls add scriptural references to ur answers . Ok.  |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 12:41am On Apr 16, 2015 |
@maamin Pls let us not add postulations or derived analogy in our discussion and let us stick to facts as presented by the scriptures. My question 1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/ when we go to sheol. Ur answer First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/ spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22). Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged At the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24). Therefore, after death, a person. resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36). My response To start with , there is an issue that has made me not to fully grasp ur explanation , and that is the use of the word "spirit/soul. What do you mean by "spirit/soul "? Does it mean "spirit and soul", "spirit or soul" or "spirit with soul"?is the spirit the same as the soul? If yes pls add bible prove and if no , can u tell us ur view of the difference? Do the spirit and soul have the same eventuality , as in they go to the same place and experience the same condition after a mans death? I read some scriptures in the bible and ill like you to respond to it if ur understanding is different from mine . To me , this is What the bible say our condition will be when we die, I mean, what happens to man when he dies. (Ecl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.) This (to my understanding )explains that a man that is living knows that he will die, but the man that is dead knows nothing at all. so whichever part is the real man,or wherever it goes after death , it knows nothing! Talk less of experiencing any feeling in that place. If I'm wrong pls explain what that verse means when it said that the dead man knows nothing after death and relate it with ur view that he knows and experiences another condition and location when he dies. (ecl 9:10 :Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.) Some translations use sheol in place of grave here and so ill expect that sheol and grave mean the same thing and all men go there when they die. These verse helps me to understand that there is no work, device, knowledge, wisdom (some translation use reason, planning) in the grave/sheol where all humans , both good and bad, righteous or un-righteous go to when they die. For a fact that it states that there is no knowledge in the grave, how do we align it with the view of people having knowledge of there condition in the grave ? (Psalms 146:6 New American Standard Bible His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. King James Bible His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.) Now this verse says when man dies , his spirit goes out , not that him himself goes out,the bible tells us that this spirit in man is same as the spirit in animals . He (the man himself that died )goes(returns) to the earth (where he came from ) and his thoughts perish, which to me means no more thinking in the grave. this goes contrary to ur view that people have experience in the grave/sheol. Several other bible verses refer to this sheol as a place of darkness and silence and no mention of departments for good or bad people . Nor a place of prejudgement. The bible also says no one praise God in hell/sheol. Now let's go. Back to ur explanation . John 3:16, 18, 36, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Philippians 1:23 explains the way and process to everlasting life for,and what spirit anointed servants of God will gain when they serve God till the end . But those verses did not state when this will happen (this will be looked at when discusing resurection) Now lets look at 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 to see if you are right with your analogy.as I qoute the verses ill be adding my view 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (here says flesh and blood cannot inherit Gods kingdom , that means flesh and blood cannot enter heaven . How come u feel that at a later date that the resurrected body , which will be, Flesh and blood (based on your explanation with the use of the word physical body) will be inherit Gods kingdom. My view is that whatever form man takes to heaven after resurrection, it wunt be in the physical flesh and blood. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (this verse is simply telling us that those going to heaven shall not all go to sheol. It means some of those going to heaven will fall asleep and go to sheol and some wunt. Note this secret was revealed after jesus has ascended into heaven, which means that after jesus went to heaven, some going to heaven are in sheol and are still going there after they die. This negates ur view that after jesus resurrection, the righteous do not go to sheol after death. Before u say its the body that goes to sheol, pls note that the bible never said the soul goes to heaven after death , but goes down to sheol and can only go to heaven after resurection, irespective of whether the resurrection is imediately after death or at a later date. "but we shall all be changed" means that no matter your condition at the appointed time of resurrection ,dead or alive , u will be changed from a physical body to a spiritual ,glorified one that can enter heaven. 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. (this explains the time and process at which the first resurrection will occur) Verse 53,54: For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (verse 44 explains this, which also nails your view of a physical body resurection at any time for those going to heaven) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. ( as at the time these verse was written , jesus has gone to heaven and those who believe in him are still in sheol and still going there when they die ) 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (God will, future Occurence, not God has ,so for numerous years after jesus ascension to heaven , no one that dies has immediately ascended to heaven ) Verse 15,16,17 explains that jesus will come to take them, and not take them along when he was resurrected . Thus there is a time period in which those who died after jesus resurection will go to Sheol first and not immediately to heaven after death as postulated by you. To be continued |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 7:15am On Apr 16, 2015 |
ayoku777:The statement above is a great perversion of scripture , the person called David is asleep in death and has return to dust because he (David) has seen corruption. " David, on the othe hand, rendered service to God in his own generation, fell asleep in death, was laid with his forefathers, and did SEE CORRUPTION" - Act 13:36 asleep In Death
God took Enoch and " he (Enoch) was no more " - Genesi 5:24. When something is no more, it doesnt exist anymore . - those who saw Elijah ascend to heaven knows he was just been transported to another city . They told Elisha " Here are 50 capable men,let them go, please, to look for your master . ... On one of the mountains or in one of the valleys" - 2kings 2:15-18 . And this is confirmed when Elijah sometimes after that event sent a letter to the king of isreal - 2 Chronicles 21:12
Everlasting Life= Life without end = " Living forever" psalm 37:29 Is this another faulty christianity [b]"everlasting life is the life of the ressurected Christ in the human spirit" ! Support ur definition of everlasting life with scripture ?
God knows its demons that operate the trick of so called speaking with the dead ! He Ban the isrealites from doing it, even though other MAGIC PRACTICING nations around them are doing it . - God has left Saul - God wont speak to him or answer him - where did the so -called Samuel got his message from since God is no longer answering Saul? - the so-called samuel predict that Saul himself will fall in the hand of the philistians , But rather than fall in the hand of the philistines .. Saul commit suicide ! Why ? Imagine the statement above ! Faulty christianity in black and white.
Wait ! Jesus took goodnews to whom ? Adam , Eve and their sons , so Abel and other well behaved men ar also in prison ? Prison ? Prison ? ----------- Jesus ressurected and preach to the spirits in prison , those whom have been disobedient IN THE DAYS OF NOAH , these are the angels that forsake their proper dwelling to sin on earth in the days of Noah (1pet 3:18-20, 2pet 2:4, Jude 6) |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 3:28pm On Apr 16, 2015 |
@ maamin My question 2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are? (b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go . Your answer Of course our creator tells us exactly what we are..we are from the dust and to the dust weshall all return, while the spirit returns to God who gave it. Gen.3:19 "19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Ecc.3:20 "20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecc.12:7 "7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." This is all I can say through the bible for now. My response You are right , God did directly tell us what we are . He said we are dust(sand/clay/ground) and not that we are spirits inhabiting a body . Apart from the scriptures u quoted , there are several other scriptures in which our creature who knows what we are, refer to man as flesh(moulded from dust and scientificaly proven to be made from dust materials and water). Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. Luke 3:6 and all flesh will see the salvation of God. Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Ps 78:39, Ps 103:13-15 With this numerous scriptures where our creature has told us what we are , its still a wonder why some say we are spirits. The scriptures still went on to explain that the spirit in man ( which enabled man to become animate) is the same spirit that is in animals and often refered to as breathe or life force. This brings us to the issue of soul, and my question to you is :what is soul?, was man giving a soul?, and if yes , when ? You have not said anything on question 2b. My question 3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ? Your answer You are right but Heaven and Hell are greatly Contrasted, I still dont think any righteous soul will go to Hell but rather Sheol (place of the dead). You can refer back to my answer to your number 1.question My response Looking at your answer in question one and the one here, I realised its basically more on location of a person after he dies and not on when he is judged or pre-judged. Changing of location from the bad part of sheol to hell does not mean there is a change in my judgement but rather a completion of the process of my judgement. And if this is so, then man is judged at the moment of death which goes contrary to ur view that man is judged later .so its either ur understanding of what happens when man dies is wrong or the bible is confused on the process of judgement. Unless you state that there is a possibility of those in ur firery part of sheol can have an opportunity of entering heaven and not going to hell , then I think your explanation needs re -explanation To be continued.... |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 10:52pm On Apr 16, 2015 |
Ps 78:39, Ps 103:13-15 We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions and as you can see this things are intangible(not physically sensed). Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth(more like a vessel). How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity). Example of physical (bodily) demonic affliction: Luke 13:11, "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself." Example of mental (soul) demonic affliction: Matthew 17:15,18, "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water... And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour." Now, about if man was given a soul and when is not mentioned anywhere in the bible as our consciousness of who/what we are comes alongside with our awareness as humans. Talking about animals having the same spirit (breath of life) as man is true, but dont forget that the spirit of man was specially breathed into man by God..Genesis 2:7 "7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." or the bold can also be said "and man became living consciousness". You might have to do more study on your own as this Topic of soul,spirit and afterlife is very complex. You have not said anything on question 2b.(b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go . The bible made mention about the spirit returning to God who gave it but the body is to the earth where it was taking from. While nothing about the soul was spoken of specifically. Will update you on this later..and your other response, duty calls. Shalom! |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 10:29am On Apr 17, 2015 |
To start with , there is an issue that has made me not to fully grasp ur explanation , and that is the use of the word "spirit/soul. What do you mean by "spirit/soul "? Does it mean "spirit and soul", "spirit or soul" or "spirit with soul"?is the spirit the same as the soul? If yes pls add bible prove and if no , can u tell us ur view of the difference? The soul and the spirit are not the same I used it interchangeably as used in the bible. Even though our Bible uses the words soul and spirit interchangeably, there is a very distinct difference that we cannot ignore. These passages in God's Word that make a very clear distinction between the soul and the spirit: Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." 1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Here the bible made it known that the Spirit,soul and Body are distinct from each other. The moment we accept Christ, our spirits become brand new. We are a completely new person, we are born of God, and we are made alive with God: 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." This is speaking of our spirits, which are instantly made new the moment we accept Christ. The Bible even tells us that the old man in us has died with Christ, and that we are raised to new life through Christ's resurrection: Romans 6:2-6, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (our spirits that were alive to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed (speaking of the evil in our souls), that henceforth we should not serve sin." Even though we have died to sin, and been raised to new life through Christ Jesus, our souls (that is, our minds) still need to be transformed and purified by the washing of the Word: Ephesians 5:26, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." Our souls are NOT born again! The Bible is clear that even though our spirits are born of incorruptible seed, our minds (souls) still need to be purified, that is, cleansed: 1 Peter 1:22-23, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." Our spirit is instantly reborn and made new the moment we accept Christ, but the soul is not born again. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds: Romans 12:2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Some closing thoughts Our spirits are made right with God, and raised to new life the moment we accept Jesus, but our souls (minds) can carry much spiritual grime and dirt over from our past lifestyles. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds and by the washing of the Word, as the Bible makes clear. This is why so many believers can continue to struggle with sin even after accepting Christ. Their souls still contain grime and dirt that needs to be removed and washed clean. I read some scriptures in the bible and ill like you to respond to it if ur understanding is different from mine . How do you reconcile this with Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus? These Christian sects believe that at death that awareness ceases until the resurrection. This belief fundamentally changes the theology around heaven, hell as well as reincarnation. The biblical authority quoted to support the belief is rather slim. In fact there is really only one scripture quoted. It is in Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV) You can't get plainer than that. The Dead know nothing. End of story. However, there are plenty of scriptures in both the old and New Testament that show that the dead are aware after death. Is this an example of Biblical contradiction? Not really. this statement wasn't made by a prophet of God nor was is it a quote from God through an angel or prophet. It is the musings of King Solomon while being depressed. It is a rhetorical remark made by a man who cried "vanities of vanities all is vanities." He admits to drinking in excess, having a thousand wives and concubines and having every luxury imaginable yet ultimately found his life unfulfilling. He even concludes at the end of his writings... Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. NIV. In 1 Samuel 28 we have the story of Saul secretly going to the witch of Endor so that he could contact the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. This of course is a forbidden art, not because it can't be done but that it is evil to contact the spirits of the dead using witchcraft. Despite the wickedness involved, Saul has the witch do the divination necessary to contact Samuel. Samuel is summoned and has the following words for Saul. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." If you read further in the story, the prophecy of the dead prophet turned out exactly as predicted. This shows us that the prophet Samuel was aware after death and was in contact with God even during death. Also Over a thousand years after the death of King Solomon, the Apostle John jouneyed to heaven in a vision and saw souls being aware they were dead. Specifically Revelations 6:9 "9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." In John's version he sees souls in heaven aware enough to know they were awaiting a new life with Christ. (ecl 9:10 :Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.) Luke 16:19-31 (NIV) The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In [HADES] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " Both Lazarus and the rich man were aware after death. Both were in Hades (Called Sheol in the Old Testament). One was with Abraham in the good part of Hades and the Rich man was in the bad part of Hades. The important point is that after death they did not cease to be aware. Death is simply the separation of the spirit from the body. Death is not completely non-awareness. I might be wrong tho! (Psalms 146:6 Finally I got the jeck..with this site "http://biblelight.net/death.htm" it explain with great number of bible verses..i think your stands in the state of the dead is correct. Take your time to go through it. Now let's go. Back to ur explanation . I never said anyone goes to heaven immediately after death. Anyways the link to a sight I posted up there throws more light on the state of the dead. Thanks for your time have really learnt a great deal. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 3:32pm On Apr 17, 2015 |
Maamin: Having issues with quoting , pasting and replying with my phone, seems I be novice on how to do it. I wunt be quoting u directly , but pls not that my peply to this particular post will be titled maamin1 |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 5:03pm On Apr 17, 2015 |
dolphinheart: Lol..ok most mobile device are like dat. Will be waiting to read your replies. |
| Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 8:42pm On Apr 17, 2015 |
@maamin Maamin1 As you can see, when you make scriptural posts and support it with statements I don't agree with , I first of all explain my view on the scripture u posted and before backing it up with other scriptures, mostimes I try not to give derived analogy .I also tried to encourage the use of scriptures to support our views. I've quoted several scriptures which at the point of reading this ur post and typing my response, u have not told me ur view on them . When is ur view on the statement "man (the real individual, concious man is from dust as recorded in several places in the scriptures ? What is ur view on the statement "man is flesh "as explained in several parts of the bible.? U said "We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul". Is there anywhere in the scriptures where that statement is being made? If there is pls let us see it. U say we are spirit , but also say that when we die , we go to sheol and our spirit goes to God . If we are spirits , pls can you explain to me with scriptural references that the spirit goes to sheol? Cus in several places in the scriptures, man goes to sheol when he dies. Before I reply on ur view of the soul , it not being physical, what it consists of and the body being a vessel, pls add scriptural prove to the statement, not derived analysis o, but direct ones to prove ur point, and then we can look at it together. On the issue of demons and possesion, ill first of all start by saying that unless acted upon by an external, powerful spirit force, what we think, how we think, our thought process is being guided and determined by what we physically feel, hear, touch, see, and smell. You can't think about gold if you have not heard(physical) about the metal or metals in general. You dnt know what gold looks like if it has not been shown(physical ) to you. U dnt know what fufu taste like if you did not taste it (physical). This knowledge of physical things are recorded in our brain(flesh) and can be lost or mis understood if anything happens to that part of the brain where the info is stored. This info is what we use in thinking, what we think about and the end result of our thinking process(conclusion ) which is also stored in our flesh. This process can be affected in 3 ways, 1. by what our senses accumulate 2. By physical forces such as accidents and materials such as drugs that can run u mad or make u well and 3. By powerful and knowlegeable external spirit forces and powers such as the demons and angels. This powerful spirit creatures who incidentally where present at our creation and know our make up can either feed ur brain spiritually with non physical experience that can force ur body to react or directly move ur body to do certain things. Our spirit(and not spirits)is the force God gave man and animals(flesh) to be able to perform this mind functions of experiencing , processing and storing info. Demons and can use these power in us and animals to adjust our behavior or reaction to things. This explains what happened in Luke 13:11, "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself." She cannot lift off herself cus her power to do such is being affected by a spirit creature What is a soul can be seen from ur quote on genesis 2:7 . God made adam out of dust ,the statement did not say "God made a body for adam" but rather "adam (the man ) was made from dust. And he breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life and adam became a living soul. Adam was not giving a soul , but he (adam )is a soul which implies that a soul is a body(flesh) that is or has been activated/animated by a force , named the breathe or spirit. And if this breathe or spirit leaves the body through the process of death , such person will no longer be able to activate or sustain himself and thus decay .that why the bible says there is no knowledge or thinking or awareness in sheol cus the power /force which man (flesh) uses to activate these process is no longer there . Wateva ur view is on how the spirit came into man and such process not mentioned of animals , the scriptures made it clear that the spirit in man(not spirits in man )and spirit in animals (not spirits in animals) is the same. During the flood, it was explained to us that everything that has the breathe of life in it (both man and animals died) This tells us that animals have spirit(breathe), the same one humans have too. The bible also calls animals living souls just like adam was called . The bible also helps us to understand that its the same eventuality that comes to both animal and man . So if you think that man is a spirit, has an imortal soul, pls tell us what you think might happen to the soul and spirits of animals when they die, since they must surely be somewhere.? |
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