OboloMAN:


Obolo is distinct from Ibibio , the little traces of igbo & ibibio found in obolo language came in through Igbo & Ibibio slaves who were allowed to settle in obolo after slave trade was abolished.

The core central obolo spoken within Ngo axis of Andoni L.G.A rivers state is well defined. You find majority of ibibio influence in the one spoken in Ibeno axis of akwa ibom.

Obolo , ibibio , efik are never the same thing

This doesn't make sense.

How do you define what is core Obolo and which is peripheral. I think you are merely biting your nose to spite your face.

The Obolo's closer to Ijaw speaking communities surely have more with Ijaws, while those in Ibeno axis have more with Ibibios.

ijawcitizen:
It seems the igbo superstitious smear campaign against Ijawland as spear-headed by Pazienza has been bursted again? it seems in their twisted mentality, we ijaws are the only ethnic group with "political affiliates" in the entire planet earth!

So, you are still alive?

pazienza:


So, you are still alive?

you've been wishing Ijawland division hoping any break-away part will be in your biafra, now you wish me dead?

yes clown! i'm alive and very well, but unlike you i'm not so ordinary that i'd virtually be living on nairaland.

OboloMAN:



Obolo is a distinct Ethnic group under Ijaw Nation.

Ijo is a language while ," IJAW" is a Nation made up of various ethnic nationalities which OBOLO (Andoni) is one of them.

We all share similar history and cultural values.

Obolo is not and was never Ibibio.

How can u say 'ijaw' is a nation made up of various nations? A nation made up of different nations? Not quite right. A nation is a homogenous entity of one language and culture. The political Ijaw as is known today is more or less a federation of associated niger delta ethnic groups or nationalities with sometimes mutually incomprehensible languages. For instance, nembe, kalabiri, andoni, ijo/izon etc

holocron:


How can u say 'ijaw' is a nation made up of various nations? A nation made up of different nations? Not quite right. A nation is a homogenous entity of one language and culture. The political Ijaw as is known today is more or less a federation of associated niger delta ethnic groups or nationalities with sometimes mutually incomprehensible languages. For instance, nembe, kalabiri, andoni, ijo/izon etc

what is wrong with you igbos?

holocron:


How can u say 'ijaw' is a nation made up of various nations? A nation made up of different nations? Not quite right. A nation is a homogenous entity of one language and culture. The political Ijaw as is known today is more or less a federation of associated niger delta ethnic groups or nationalities with sometimes mutually incomprehensible languages. For instance, nembe, kalabiri, andoni, ijo/izon etc

He never said "the Ijaw nation is made up of NATIONS" what he meant was that the Ijaw nation like every other ethnic group is made up of sub-ethnic groups (or traditional sub-divisions if you like).

The Igbos have Ngwa, Aro, Ndoki, Bende, Mbaise etc.
The Yorubas have Ijebu, Awori, Ilaje, Owo etc
The Urhobos have Orogun, Okpe, Uvwie etc

I know like many Igbos you're confused when you learnt Andonis are Ijaws, it is very common to find such naivety amongst Igbos, afterall a lot you still think the Kalabaris, okrikans, Nembes, Ibanis and the rest are different ethnic groups.

Andonis lost their Original Defaka dialect but evolved an entirely new language based on the original Ijaw intonation and an Ibibio/efik structure, they still retain losts of Ijaw words like the Yoruboid speaking Apoi Ijaws of Ondo state.

The loss/evolution of dialects occur at the borders/fringes areas of Ijawland and the evidence is everywhere, even E.K Clark's community Kiagbodo bordering Urhobo communities to the north is largely Urhobo speaking.

pazienza:


Obolo is only politically Ijaw today.

The language is Ibibiod with little Igbo and Ijaw words.

How foolish?

ijawcitizen:
you've been wishing Ijawland division hoping any break-away part will be in your biafra, now you wish me dead?

yes clown! i'm alive and very well, but unlike you i'm not so ordinary that i'd virtually be living on nairaland.

Well, nairaland is not Kryptonland or Nibiruland, where extraordinary beings are believed to inhabit.
Nairaland is meant for ordinary folks like pazienza. Extraordinary beings like you aren't expected to be found here. *grins*

pazienza:


Well, nairaland is not Kryptonland or Nibiruland, where extraordinary beings are believed to inhabit.
Nairaland is meant for ordinary folks like pazienza. Extraordinary beings like you aren't expected to be found here. *grins*

You see, I won't blame you for not understanding english, it is because i couldn't write in igbo (how could I when igbos did not succede in making me a biafran).

If you're half as resourceful and productive as I am, you wont be VIRTUALLY, I repeat VIRTUALLY living on nairaland attacking Ijawland, at the same time calling us fools and defending the attrocities of your murderous biafrans against us.

ijawcitizen:
You see, I won't blame you for not understanding english, it is because i couldn't write in igbo (how could I when igbos did not succede in making me a biafran).

If you're half as resourceful and productive as I am, you wont be VIRTUALLY, I repeat VIRTUALLY living on nairaland attacking Ijawland, at the same time calling us fools and defending the attrocities of your murderous biafrans against us.

Aww! Never knew we have a Bill gate amongst us, or could it be that Dangote is actually from Ijawland all these while? Lol!

Stop flattering yourself, resourceful people don't go about shouting about it. Moreover, whether or not you are resourceful is your business, this is Nairaland not resourceful-land, your resourcefulness is your cup of tea, you don't put food on my table.

pazienza:


Aww! Never knew we have a Bill gate amongst us, or could it be that Dangote is actually from Ijawland all these while? Lol!

Stop flattering yourself, resourceful people don't go about shouting about it. Moreover, whether or not you are resourceful is your business, this is Nairaland not resourceful-land, your resourcefulness is your cup of tea, you don't put food on my table.

irrelevant rantings!
but fair enough, at least you got my point.

You guys seriously came and made nonsense of an otherwise decent thread, but at least it's over now, seemingly.

By the way, IjawCitizen, I have to say, you've been much more levelheaded in this thread than is typical of you (or was typical of you). Don't take my observation the wrong way. It's a good thing, and I just thought I should mention it.

ChinenyeN:
You guys seriously came and made nonsense of an otherwise decent thread, but at least it's over now, seemingly.

By the way, IjawCitizen, I have to say, you've been much more levelheaded in this thread than is typical of you (or was typical of you). Don't take my observation the wrong way. It's a good thing, and I just thought I should mention it.

ChinenyeN ... You dont know me too well, if you do you'd know that I dont instigate any trouble, I only respond when your brothers come with their madness.

I must confess too that you are the closest to levelheadedness amongst them all but yet you condone or stay docile whenever your brothers go on rampage. You obviously knew your brother Pazienza started the madness here but your comment/caution (whatever it was) was directed at me.

Dont get me wrong, you are not so different from the rest of them, you only exercise more maturity by not letting that part of you out, but it bleeds thru' anyway.

See, all I did was make an observation. You came around and made an assumption. I'd like to believe you've interacted with me on NL enough times to know why I don't get involved in fruitless back-and-forth. So, I definitely did not expect such a presumptuous response from you. But, I guess it means that you're still you. Your levelheadedness has not yet weeded out that aspect of you.

By the way, my comment was equally for the both you. If you'd indulge me, you can go back and reread it again, keeping context in mind. You should see that I'm not the kind to play favorites when it comes to compliments or cautions. Hence why I cautioned both of you, and then equally turned to complimented you, despite your track record with me.

Anyway, welcome back to NL. Things have gotten a bit settled while you were away (not that that's a bad thing ).

On the topic of the Lower Niger Bronze Industry...

This just crossed my mind. There is a community within the Ngwa-Asa-Ndoki axis that might present as an interesting case with regards to metalworking and bronzes in the Lower Niger area. This community is Abala, within Ibeme, in what is now Obingwa LGA. In past years, Abala developed some notoriety, because of its metalworking. In particular, its history as a local, indigenous gun factory.

Within all this, what is interesting is that Abala has no oral traditions that highlight or even mention metalworking in its early settlement history. Also, the community which they migrated from, now in Ukwa East LGA, also has no casting traditions of any kind. Yet, the Abala community actively engages in metalworking. I've asked around, but have yet to get a good response regarding how metalworking was introduced to Abala (though I could make some inferences). For all intents and purposes the metalworking tradition in Abala can be likened to a 'random manifestation'.

If one considers Abala as a case study of sorts, then a case might possibly be made for other such 'random manifestations' in the Lower Niger region; random manifestations which fizzled away almost quickly as they came to be established. This might explain the stylistic diversity found among Lower Niger brass/bronzes, and help provide a reason for why it has so far proven difficult for the academia to localize the works.

pazienza:


This doesn't make sense.

How do you define what is core Obolo and which is peripheral. I think you are merely biting your nose to spite your face.

The Obolo's closer to Ijaw speaking communities surely have more with Ijaws, while those in Ibeno axis have more with Ibibios.

What the guy is saying in essence is, OBOLO land is an Ijaw land and the aborigines are Ijaws but Migrants like Igbo, Ibibio and Efiks among them have changed their language and culture. That does not change the land from Ijaw to anything.
He is a proud Ijaw man from Obolo land and the land falls within the Ijaw geography.

ChinenyeN:
On the topic of the Lower Niger Bronze Industry...

This just crossed my mind. There is a community within the Ngwa-Asa-Ndoki axis that might present as an interesting case with regards to metalworking and bronzes in the Lower Niger area. This community is Abala, within Ibeme, in what is now Obingwa LGA. In past years, Abala developed some notoriety, because of its metalworking. In particular, its history as a local, indigenous gun factory.

Within all this, what is interesting is that Abala has no oral traditions that highlight or even mention metalworking in its early settlement history. Also, the community which they migrated from, now in Ukwa East LGA, also has no casting traditions of any kind. Yet, the Abala community actively engages in metalworking. I've asked around, but have yet to get a good response regarding how metalworking was introduced to Abala (though I could make some inferences). For all intents and purposes the metalworking tradition in Abala can be likened to a 'random manifestation'.

If one considers Abala as a case study of sorts, then a case might possibly be made for other such 'random manifestations' in the Lower Niger region; random manifestations which fizzled away almost quickly as they came to be established. This might explain the stylistic diversity found among Lower Niger brass/bronzes, and help provide a reason for why it has so far proven difficult for the academia to localize the works.

Where is upper Niger if you consider the ABALA land as lower Niger and where does Okrika, Kalabari and Ibani and Ogoni fall if the Lower Niger is ABALA land ?

ChinenyeN:
On the topic of the Lower Niger Bronze Industry...

This just crossed my mind. There is a community within the Ngwa-Asa-Ndoki axis that might present as an interesting case with regards to metalworking and bronzes in the Lower Niger area. This community is Abala, within Ibeme, in what is now Obingwa LGA. In past years, Abala developed some notoriety, because of its metalworking. In particular, its history as a local, indigenous gun factory.

Within all this, what is interesting is that Abala has no oral traditions that highlight or even mention metalworking in its early settlement history. Also, the community which they migrated from, now in Ukwa East LGA, also has no casting traditions of any kind. Yet, the Abala community actively engages in metalworking. I've asked around, but have yet to get a good response regarding how metalworking was introduced to Abala (though I could make some inferences). For all intents and purposes the metalworking tradition in Abala can be likened to a 'random manifestation'.

If one considers Abala as a case study of sorts, then a case might possibly be made for other such 'random manifestations' in the Lower Niger region; random manifestations which fizzled away almost quickly as they came to be established. This might explain the stylistic diversity found among Lower Niger brass/bronzes, and help provide a reason for why it has so far proven difficult for the academia to localize the works.

Imo river is not a tributary of river Niger so why did you consider the Imo river belt and basin as part of the NIGER DELTA ? Explain yourself..

shota:


What the guy is saying in essence is, OBOLO land is an Ijaw land and the aborigines are Ijaws but Migrants like Igbo, Ibibio and Efiks among them have changed their language and culture. That does not change the land from Ijaw to anything.
He is a proud Ijaw man from Obolo land and the land falls within the Ijaw geography.

And does the Guy speak for all Obolo people?

The last time the Ijaws wanted to have Eastern Obolo and Ibeno in their oil rivers state, they rejected it.
I want to believe that the Andonis see themselves as a distinct group from Ijaws.

That's just my impression from few Andonis I have met in real life.

Shota, the expression 'Lower Niger', as used by the academia, is inclusive of the Igbo ethno-linguistic region. It is not the same thing as 'Niger Delta'.

pazienza:


And does the Guy speak for all Obolo people?

The last time the Ijaws wanted to have Eastern Obolo and Ibeno in their oil rivers state, they rejected it.
I want to believe that the Andonis see themselves as a distinct group from Ijaws.

That's just my impression from few Andonis I have met in real life.

Obolo people did not reject it. It was the Efiks and Ibibios living among the Obolos that rejected it claiming the Obolos were migrants. Next time please understand what people say. It would be like Fulani people in Southern Kaduna rejecting what the Southern natives want or Just like Fulanis in Jos rejecting what the Biroms want.. Every Obolo is an Ijaw unless one who claims to be Obolo but whose ancestors are Efiks or Ibibios .

ChinenyeN:
Not to derail your thread, OboloMan, but I've always found it interesting how Obolo could have such a collection of bronze and brass works, without any casting traditions. The Lower Niger Bronze/Brass industry must have been a very lucrative one.

Radoillo:
To my non-expert eyes, the face of the 'Bronze Image of an Obolo King' looks very much like how they would make it in precolonial Benin.

I wonder if there was a connection between both schools of bronze/brass art - the Bini School and the Lower Niger School.

OboloMAN:


Most likely there's a connection between the two schools (Benin bronzes and lower niger bronzes)

My take Benin empire was a large one and most likely many other Lower niger tribes may have interacted with them and learnt the art of casting.

The Benin court art had a distinctive style, which this has some similarities to, but does not really seem exactly the same with to me. My eyes are no better trained than anyone else's but I can see some difference compared to what I'm used to seeing in the Benin art.

I suspect that some people outside the political control of courts in southern Nigeria may have been bronze/brass casters, and that could also explain the lower Niger bronzes. That is a merely a conjecture on my part but it's just what I see as a possible explanation. Despite casting being a complex process and the necessary material not being easy to acquire there might still have been such people around - perhaps people who left royal courts during periods of internal conflict in a kingdom. Some Obolo people could have gone to one of these non-court casters and learned the techniques and then made their own bronze works to honor their deities and kings.

And if there were not an organization in place among a people to keep an oral record of very specific historical details such as the general time when certain items - such as bronze works - were made, then traditions about learning how to cast and when such castings were made might have been largely forgotten. I don't know enough about Obolo to know whether or not they had people dedicated to keeping a record of those kind of specific historical details though they probably had many people who knew other aspects, general and specific, of their people's history. If they didn't have some organization in place that would remember very specific details about bronze works it's possible they could have been forgotten.

Also, instead of contacting a bronze caster possibly operating outside the control of a royal court or some other centralized casting location, they could have first obtained some bronzes through trade as some other Ijaw communities did, before they made their own. This article below by E.J. Alagoa mentions (pp. 415-416) how some bronzes wound up being dispersed in Ijaw areas through trade:

"Oral Tradition among the Ijo of the Niger Delta"
http://www.jstor.org/stable/180110

Some of these would likely have been related to the Benin types if we go by what is stated in the article. Referring to of a group of bronzes found among the Mein group of the Ijaw, Alagoa's article states:

"The Mein bronzes are connected with Benin by tradition, and Horton sees some stylistic affinity also in some of the pieces. He believes the other examples in Mein and other areas belong to different styles. There are, however, no recorded traditions of either local manufacture or of importation, their origin being invariably ascribed to the water spirits. The investigation of these metal artifacts as well as of the centres of dispersal indicated by the traditions require the attention of archaeologists. "

He is referring to Robin Horton's 1965 article on some bronzes found in the Niger delta, as can be seen from the note in the article at the bottom of page 416. I haven't read Horton's article so I can't comment on it but it would probably have some additional detailed information about the actual bronzes found in the Niger delta.

My own guess is that the bronze pieces from Obolo and some others in the Ijaw areas were manufactured by people who had learned casting from someone who had left the control of royal courts or other centralized centers of casting and this explains the difference in style from other bronze works in Nigeria, while the lack of a tradition of casting could be explained by the absence of a long lasting guild of specialists that would have kept oral traditions giving specific details about the casting of the bronze pieces.

pazienza:


And does the Guy speak for all Obolo people?

The last time the Ijaws wanted to have Eastern Obolo and Ibeno in their oil rivers state, they rejected it.
I want to believe that the Andonis see themselves as a distinct group from Ijaws.

That's just my impression from few Andonis I have met in real life.

if some people who u think are igbos say they're not igbos now, u will call them names and shout to high heavens and insist that they're igbos no matter what they say. Now someone is saying although his group are disticnt they're still part of the ijaw nation. Ur here insisting that they're not part of ijaw. Now tell me if ur God or just a crazed biafran

1shortblackboy:
if some people who u think are igbos say they're not igbos now, u will call them names and shout to high heavens and insist that they're igbos no matter what they say. Now someone is saying although his group are disticnt they're still part of the ijaw nation. Ur here insisting that they're not part of ijaw. Now tell me if ur God or just a crazed biafran

Where exactly are you from. I don't like dealing with entities with no identifiable ethnic group.

pazienza:


Where exactly are you from. I don't like dealing with entities with no identifiable ethnic group.

why do u want to know my ethnicity? so that u can subject my opinions to ur myopic ethnocentric reasoning ?

1shortblackboy:
if some people who u think are igbos say they're not igbos now, u will call them names and shout to high heavens and insist that they're igbos no matter what they say. Now someone is saying although his group are disticnt they're still part of the ijaw nation. Ur here insisting that they're not part of ijaw. Now tell me if ur God or just a crazed biafran

That is what the Igbos are.

pazienza:


Where exactly are you from. I don't like dealing with entities with no identifiable ethnic group.

Irrelevant

ijawcitizen:
He never said "the Ijaw nation is made up of NATIONS" what he meant was that the Ijaw nation like every other ethnic group is made up of sub-ethnic groups (or traditional sub-divisions if you like).

The Igbos have Ngwa, Aro, Ndoki, Bende, Mbaise etc.
The Yorubas have Ijebu, Awori, Ilaje, Owo etc
The Urhobos have Orogun, Okpe, Uvwie etc

I know like many Igbos you're confused when you learnt Andonis are Ijaws, it is very common to find such naivety amongst Igbos, afterall a lot you still think the Kalabaris, okrikans, Nembes, Ibanis and the rest are different ethnic groups.

Andonis lost their Original Defaka dialect but evolved an entirely new language based on the original Ijaw intonation and an Ibibio/efik structure, they still retain losts of Ijaw words like the Yoruboid speaking Apoi Ijaws of Ondo state.

The loss/evolution of dialects occur at the borders/fringes areas of Ijawland and the evidence is everywhere, even E.K Clark's community Kiagbodo bordering Urhobo communities to the north is largely Urhobo speaking.

Quite interesting! Can you also explain how the nembe language lost its 'ijaw'ness?

holocron:


Quite interesting! Can you also explain how the nembe language lost its 'ijaw'ness?

You have to first explain why Abakiliki Igbos and Ikwere Igbos and Ngwa Igbos dont speak the same Igbo.
Or explain why Oyo Yoruba is different from Ijebu and Ondo.

Ijaw dialects from Arogbo to Obolo vary from clan to clan due to the same factor that caused the difference between Igbo clans and difference between Yoruba clans.

holocron:


Quite interesting! Can you also explain how the nembe language lost its 'ijaw'ness?

a nembe man understands a kalabari and an okrikan man's dialect. I gueSs u don't know that

holocron:


Quite interesting! Can you also explain how the nembe language lost its 'ijaw'ness?

The Nembe DIALECT is still very much intact, no adultration whatsoever.

As always, I enjoy reading PhysicsQED's responses, and the speculation isn't unreasonable. Without guilds in place (i.e. no institutionalization), it is difficult to imagine that the casting traditions would have been preserved. But maybe we can also take the speculation a step further. It could be suggested that the lack of guilds might be a symptom of lack of available raw material to support the growing industry of local manufacture. So, isolated incidents of casting appeared and disappeared almost as quickly and as quietly as the both the raw material and the non-court, non- casters came and went. This, however, wouldn't stop heavy trade in bronze among Lower Niger communities for some reason.