In many cases, I have seen members of this forum call in the authority of the Bible to settle discussions.

Now, to those people that take the Bible as the unquestioned word of God, why exactly do you take the Bible as such?
What makes you personaly take the position that the Bible is the unquestionable word of God and how do you relate that to the obvious contradictions we see with the knowledge we gained through science and history?

This is an open discussion on your personal motives, please do not let this derail into a flame war.

The same reason why u believe in ur physics or chemistry textbook......documentary evidence of existing facts.

I have lived by the bible and my life is the better for it. The bible Isnt the word of God. It simply contains the word of GOD amist history,words of men, wisdom nuggets and new creation realities (revelations).
Its called the word of god cos the writing was insipired by God.
I beleive its unquestionable cos i've lived by it and i've experienced the miraculous by following the tenets contained in that book (not coincidence).
It's an experiential knowlegde.

@layi

Thank you for your honest response. Could you explain to me what mean by living by it and how that makes you think it's unquestionable?

This is what it means to live by it:

Josuah1:8

"This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success."

2 Corinthians 4:13

" We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;"




About the authority of the scriptures...

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Collected books otherwise known as scrolls kept in a house LIBRARY , Which the Greek called BIBILIE was made into a BooK form in 14th century named The Bible, used by all worshipers of the true God. which was later canonized by scholars to give it a human face and make meaning out of it. Martin Luther took 66 out of this books as enough for their teaching. So all potestants took it as the authority. While the Roman Catholic said it is a modified record of traditions of the act of worshiping God. Then the words of God in short.

Using it  like a lawyer quoting the law is out of it. But as a published references. OK.

The books that were left out were those that were seen to contain nothing of divine inspiration. These were books containing mere poetic writings and sometimes, contemporary wisdom. There were many books at that time, written by different poets of their time.

All of them could not be taken to be inspired or canonical. Those that had nothing to do with prophesies concerning the messiah, or God's plan of salvation for mankind, or those that never sited other inspired books or prophets of the bible, were left out.

And mind you, the 66 books of the bible were already chosen and accepted as canonical and authority long before the addition of the remaining books by the Roman catholics.

What King James did later on in history was a cleansing process, since there were so many books which had been added to what had already been accepted as authority.

Based on knowledge of philosophy and theology clarity comes into play.

Same goes to other sects the book that is commonly acknowledge as the truth can be used for clarity.

Muslim knows the Christian as the people of the book. Based on the exposures and knowledge of it we can show others references from their book to calm their excess of human teaching.

Holy Koran confirmed

3.3] He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
[3.7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

If I remember correctly, during the Council of Nicea, held under the authority of Constantine, the established church decided which texts were to be part of the Bible and which texts wouldn't. The bishops would decide what were divinely inspired writings and what weren't.

The result was that a lot of books that went against the established order and state church were scrapped from the canon and thus wouldn't make it into the Bible. Among those texts that were rejected were the gnostic gospels and the gospel by Thomas. It is important to note that only a very specific interpretation of the life and the teachings of Christ were witheld: those that did not reject the state authority, the hierarchy of the church and the spread of Christianity in the Roman world. Therefore:
* the more apocalyptic texts speaking of the coming resurrection and rapture were rejected (later to be re-added to the protestant Bible) as they threatened worldly (Roman) authority
* the role of the Roman administration in the sentencing and execution of Christ was downplayed, putting the blame almost entirely with the Jews - and later leading to the anti-semitism of the church
* the gnostic interpretation of Christ - where sometimes even the very existence of Christ as a living human was questioned - was complete ejected from the canon (except the Pauline letters that could also be interpreted according to the official doctrine), leading to a fierce persecution of all remaining gnostic communities

The inception of the Bible as an official 'book' was a highly political game that led to the establishment of the church-state symbiosis, where the church gave credibility to the worldly rule of the Caesars. There was very little divine about the whole process.

That's why it always surprises me that some people take the current incarnation of the Bible as the yardstick for all morality, knowledge and questions of life and death. If only those people would know more about the history of the church, they wouldn't have such a fundamentalist interpretation.

Now, to get back on topic:

What makes you personaly take the position that the Bible is the unquestionable word of God and how do you relate that to the obvious contradictions we see with the knowledge we gained through science and history?

I would very much like to focus this discussion on how you handle to contradictions

nferyn you are an Authority in this field explain the human motivational aspect of it.

Hnd-holder:

nferyn you are an Authority in this field explain the human motivational aspect of it.

No I'm no authority. I know some church history, but that's about it. I dont fully understand your question about the human motivational aspect.

You all have said well and all there is to say concerning this topic but let me add that, you will notice that the reason why there is strong belief in the Bible is because most of the acts in the Bible were right and those that did wrong got their repercussion for it, those that did right were rewarded for it and all these apply to our everyday lives too if you are a good person you are  always blessed one way or the other by those that recognise it you stand out anywhere you go or even if someone cheats him/her they do not go Scot free

I don't know if i make sense there but well that is what i think.

It is better for Jesus to come and scold me for following Him or His prophets and apostles too closely than for me to face the shame and punishment of despising His Word and denying His name.

2 Peter 1:19

"And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. "

This is talking about the written Word of Prophecy. It is a more sure word.

Besides, if all we had was the letter of the written Word, we will be of all men most miserable. But there is a Spirit of the Word. This is what confirms the written Word in our hearts. This causes the Word to come alive in our hearts and in the hearts of our hearers.

We see signs and wonders wrought by God almighty as we proclaim the Words of that book by the power of the Spirit. This is actually what gives authensity to the words of that book... The miraculous.

1 Corinthians 2:4

" and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power"

1 Corinthians 4:20 -" For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power. "  

I remember the testimony of TL Osborne a great man of God. He said the first time himself and his wife went to India to preach, the Muslims brought their book, the Hindus also brought their book. And they asked him,"these three books are black, which one do we believe?"

They went back to America sad with little results. But He went into prayer and fasting for three days after witnessing live miracles wrought by a certain preacher, William Branham by name.

Then they went back to India and said,"the last time i came here, i could not prove my message..." then he asked that a blind peson and a deaf mute be brought forward. He pointed his finger at the deaf mute , commanding he deaf and dumb spirit to leave. Tears began to flow down the persons eyes as he discovered he could hear. He also ministered to the blind person who immidiately began to see.

Suddenly, a surging crown began to run towards him. Afraid that they were comming to take thier lives, and considering taking to his heels, he saw them fall on thier knees before Him, crying out for salvation with their hands lifted.

One miracle will settle the issue!

donnie , do you think you have free mind to discuss this, I am sorry if you feel offended. The last verse of St John gospel confirmed that all were not recorded. I hope people do not just perform magic now or mistic of magnetism in the name of miracle?

Dorcas:

You all have said well and all there is to say concerning this topic but let me add that, you will notice that the reason why there is strong belief in the Bible is because most of the acts in the Bible were right and those that did wrong got their repercussion for it, those that did right were rewarded for it and all these apply to our everyday lives too if you are a good person you are always blessed one way or the other by those that recognise it you stand out anywhere you go or even if someone cheats him/her they do not go Scot free

I don't know if i make sense there but well that is what i think.

There is no correlation between whether or not you follow the bible and what befals you. Why else would ther be so many faithfull dying the most horrible deaths?

Even in the Bible faithful people died terrible deaths Steven was stoned to death, even Jesus Christ himself was hung on the cross. If you don't die how do you how do you get to heaven.

nferyn:

There is no correlation between whether or not you follow the bible and what befals you. Why else would ther be so many faithfull dying the most horrible deaths?

Trying to prevent   the ARC of the lord from falling. People were struct dead. From those who has not  the little they had shall be taken away from them......... -ve Kindness. King slept with hilot in genesis. King David took someones wife.  Jesus was nailed to cross on Friday... what is GOOD[/b]inthat[b]FRIDAY etc. Seeking the truth....

HND,

You sure know i've never had a problem replying your posts. I am ever ready to reply you provided this time you will be ready to take a stand somewhere and not choose to speak ambiguously.

I will not let you hide this time behind the obvious fact that not all the works of Jesus were recorded and the rather too obvious fact that there are false prophets. You will take a stand this time. My question for you therefore is this: Do you believe that mirales are for today and that they are relevant for the preaching of the gospel? I am looking out for your answer.

If your anwer is yes, then there is no need for your statement : "The last verse of St John gospel confirmed that all were not recorded. I hope people do not just perform magic now or mistic of magnetism in the name of miracle?" ...because we all know that.

It is like someone who claims to be a christian but will not go to church with the excuse that not all those who go to church are truely christains. We know that already... we do not need to be told. The fact still remains ( as commanded by God's Word) that if you are a christain, you must go to church!

The truth still remains that  if you are called, you will have the necessary credentials to show that you are and that the message you carry is from God.

With all due respect and without being critical, those are the kind of statements made by  those preachers who went without being sent. They make such statements to excuse their powerlessness. If God did not send you, he is not obliged to back up your claims with signs and wonders because you were not sent, you went! He is not offended at you though.

Rom 1:4
"And declared to be the Son of God with power..."

He was declared to be God's son with power...not with Words!

Hebrews 2:1-4

" Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

Acts 2:22

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"

1cor 4:19

"But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power"

2cor 12:12

"Truly the signs of an apostle(sent one) were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds"


...Please state clearly where you stand an stop playing with words.

Dear Dorcas,

I know that you mean well. But i want to point out something:

The men you sited as having died terrible deaths did not see those deaths as terrible or shuould i say regretable 'cos they laid down their lives. They commanded thier deaths.

Study those stories properly and see for yourself.

You do not have to die t go to heaven!

1cor15:51-52

"Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

God Bless you.

Do you believe that mirales are for today and that they are relevant for the preaching of the gospel? no I refuse it.

Thank you very much.

Mark 16:17

" And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

You do not see these signs because you do not believe. If you truely believe in God and in His son Jesus, you will see miracles. Because God is a supernatural being and he responds to us his kids as such... through the supernatural.

Jesus was raised from the dead...did he become less powerful than He was then? Is His presence no longer with us today?
My bible tells me that He is the same yesterday today and forever! If He is the same, then He should still be able to do the things He did in bible days otherwise, His death was a defeat and there is no need for anyone to believe in him. There will be no need for Christainity and anyone who claims to have recieved salvation will be decieving himself.

Are you a christian? before you answer that question be careful because salvation itself is a miracle. For a man to recieve eternal life from almighty God, it has to be by a miracle. You have to have even believed in the miracle working power of God which raised Jesus from the dead to save and cleanse you from sin and to also raise you up from the dead with christ and finally to make you a new creature in Him.

I await your response as well as your answers to my questions. Thank you.

@ all the people who so elegantly quote the Bible:

Have you ever tried to question your beliefs or are you only looking for confirmation of your beliefs when reading the Bible? What about secular knowledge that is in clear contradiction to the Biblical account (e.g. the great flood, creation according to Genesis)? How do you approach this?

Are you introspectively trying to relate everything in the world to the appropriate Bible passages? How do you get to your personal truth and what are the arguments that convince you?

How would somebody that has not been raised with the Bible as ultimate yardstick for everything be convinced about it's value? What makes it so attractive?

..............and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them......
These are words you can not take literally. Your kind of Christianity is a BABY type

Hnd-holder:

..............and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them......
These are words you can not take literally. Your kind of Christianity is a BABY type

How do you determine what can and what cannot be taken literally?

donnie should let me know if he has drank deadly things before?

Make sure you cleverly observe things /check every thing and stick to the truth, the truth shall set you free. Seek first the kingdom of the lord, every other thing shall be added.

Can you all please get back on topic?

Unfortunately I still haven't received many satisfactory responses
Why do you hold on to the Bible, what motivates you personally and how can you bring that in line with secular knowledge?

Abstract exegetic readings from the Bible do not even start to address the subject.

The doctrine of Biblical Inspiration is fundamental to evangelical Christianity. Without this essential notion, the uniqueness and authority of the Bible is destroyed. The Bible just becomes one of many ancient books and the truths of historic Christianity are reduced to a collection of religious myths.

The doctrine of Inspiration also implies that the Bible is authorative for all humanity in all aspects of life. Unless the Bible is truly inspired by God, there is no reason why it should be considered any more authorative than any other book. Francis Schaeffer recognised that rejecting these two most fundamental doctrines was an enormous problem and called it The Great Evangelical Disaster (in The Complete Works 1982, vol. 5 pp. 320-321).

Bible must serve as its own final authority.
that's not to say that there can be no reasons for believing the Bible is the word of God, only that it is philosophically impossible to rest support for the Bible's authority on appeals to direct evidence
.http://keithdevens.com/weblog/archive/2004/Aug/31/Bible.authority

A quarter of a century ago a conference of evangelical scholars and leaders met for a week at Wenham, Massachusetts, to reconcile different opinions about the inspiration of Scripture. One Continental professor insisted on giving the Holy Spirit "elbow room" in inspiration. There are "bubbles," he said, in the Bible. Others held to the plenary, verbal inspiration of Scripture, maintaining that the Bible, while using ordinary language, is without error. J. I. Packer clarified the question by declaring that our doctrine of Scripture cannot be determined in advance by our own assumptions or by the "pragmatics" of our findings in biblical study. The doctrine of Scripture, like all Christian doctrine, must be derived from the Bible itself.

No doubt the basic teaching of the Bible about itself needs reiteration more than new development. Evangelicals, however, are in danger of viewing as "fundamentalistic" a view of the Bible that is indeed fundamental to historic Christianity. The International Conference on Biblical Inerrancy sought to counter that error in the ten years of its activities from 1978 to 1987.
The issues for ecclesiology, whether of the individual and the community, of male and female, or of truth for the post-modern mind, are all transformed in Christ under His authority, His revealed Word, illumined by His Spirit. He is Lord and governs His Church by His Word and Spirit.
http://www.the-highway.com/articleDec99.html

@Hnd-holder,

Thank you for your insightful replies

So you're starting from an axiomatic position that you cannot question the Bible and that only by exegetic reading you can reach truth? Am I correct?

To be able to do that you need to be able to disregard the enormous cognitive dissonance resulting from secular knowledge, i.e. if the Bible were to tell you that pigs always fly, you would accept that, even though no pigs have ever been found to fly?

I'll go over your links and come back to you