paulGrundy:


Adam, Eve, the people of old old testament prophets before jesus' death have already been immortalised and judged and have been to heaven or hell,

Scripture ? John 3:13

they are no longer in the grave. Those who died without hearing about jesus will be judged by their conscience or the law romans 2:12-14. I have done an extensive researched online before coming to make posts.

If so , why is no Man in heaven b4 Jesus ? Joh 3:13

Jesus was clear when he said;

Mattew 25:41;
...Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire..

Rev 20:14, death and hades cast into the lake of fire simply means that at that point they are no more (explained it to jesciha). Lake of fire is a literal term because we have a extensive list of scriptures that confirms that.

Lake of fire is a literal term yet death and hades are not burned ?

paulGrundy:

1 Corinthians 15:53-55New
International Version (NIV)
53 For the perishable must
clothe itself with the
imperishable, and the mortal
with immortality. 54 When the
perishable has been clothed
with the imperishable, and the
mortal with immortality, then the
saying that is written will come
true: “Death has been
swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55
“Where, O death, is your
victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
Daniel 12:2;
2 Multitudes who sleep in the
dust of the earth will awake:
some to everlasting life, others
to shame and everlasting
contempt.

Again no attempt to add further explanation. As explained earlier , the perishable and imperishable is talking about the bodies that those who will go to heaven will have. That body is not for the unrighteous. It is not for everyone. Hence it does not answer the question .
Furthermore, the verses says nothing about the soul being immortal. Even some of those who gained the inperishable body had once perished!
Just in case you dnt know, evalasting life and imortality are not the same thing.

they will remain on earth and experience the anti-christs rule after which comes judgement.

Let me break the question down for you. The question is to know what the bible says about the future of those who will not experience the so called rapture ok.

4B(a) What will happen to them before the anti Christ rule, after the so called rapture ?

4B(b)What will happen to those humans after judgment.

4B(c)Will there be people who will not burn in hell when they don't experience or partake in the so called rapture? If yes , where will those people be ?

the watchtower has
several versions related to that
stuff, which one should i select?

Sir, I asked you a question, I did not ask you to select any other persons versions.
Pls tell us ur view of the scripture I sited and question asked.
Read rev 20:5,6 then answer my question: 5.Since there is a first resurrection, there is also
other resurrections, what is the difference between the
first ressurection and other
resurrections?

no.

Since you say sodom is no longer burning , what happened to the fire and sulphur that burnt it down ? That evalasting fire is no longer burning, as an example apply these to other scriptures that talks about evalasting fire too.

his mortal soul/body

Question 7A: How is hades an escort? Is hades an escort because men are buried in the grave?
Pls answer those questions.

You now see where your answers has led you, you can't differentiate between the body and soul again hence you now say soul/body is buried in the grave.
Before it was body to the grave and soul to hell. Now it is soul/body to the grave.
7B Is the soul and body the same thing ? If no , why do you say soul/body . Or do both go to the grave?

The Bible does not specifically tell us whether Adam and Eve were saved.

Sir I did not ask you if adam and eve where saved or not. dnt change the issue. I asked :
So where did God say that
adam will go to ?

In a more understandable way : where did God tell adam that he ,adam, will return to?

Adam and Eve
were the only two human
beings who knew about God
before they became tainted with sin. As a result, they likely still knew God better after their fall than any of us do today. Adam and Eve most definitely
believed in and depended on
God. God continued to talk with Adam and Eve and provide for them after the fall. Adam and Eve knew of God’s promise that He would provide a Savior (Genesis 3:15). God made garments of skin for Adam and Eve after the fall (Genesis 3:21). Many scholars
understand this as the first
animal sacrifice, foreshadowing the eventual death of Christ on the cross for the sins of the world. Putting these facts together, it would seem that Adam and Eve were saved and did indeed go to heaven / paradise when they died.

Hian!!. So God did not say where adam will go/ return to when he dies?

So you are saying that after God passes judgement, he can still save such one ? . That means Satan can be saved also then if he repents?
Bro ur statements are truly not biblical .

Jozzy4:


thats paulgrundy for you . He will say " yes lake of fire in this instance is symbolic , coz grave cant be burned . But lake of fire is literal in other instances . " thus we have 2 lake of fire , one is symbolic and the other is literal .
Heresy upon heresy . One lie always lead to many networks of lie as stated by dolphinheart .

- pls , jessicha notice that he said Adam and Eve made heaven without Jesus dying for their sins , funny isnt it ? Humans making heaven without Jesus . He make God a fool who said dont eat the tree of life nd live forever , whereas they later live forever . Satan is right lol .

He said soul is mortal for now , but contradict himself immediately by saying Adam and Eve go to heaven when they die . i thought they wont be immortal until after ressurection , i thought he said the dead will be in the grave . ConFusion

You can see through his shifting , he can't hold on to his words. He is a far from the truth as his real child is as far from the one displayed by his moniker.

Like a house made of cards , so is their beliefs, remove one lie, the rest come tumbling down!

paulGrundy:


Adam, Eve, the people of old old testament prophets before jesus' death have already been immortalised and judged and have been to heaven or hell, they are no longer in the grave. Those who died without hearing about jesus will be judged by their conscience or the law romans 2:12-14. I have done an extensive researched online before coming to make posts.

Just so you know the confused one here is the watchtower, jesus was clear when he said;

Mattew 25:41;
...Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire..

Rev 20:14, death and hades cast into the lake of fire simply means that at that point they are no more (explained it to jesciha). Lake of fire is a literal term because we have a extensive list of scriptures that confirms that.

I have tried! I thought I was argueing with bible scholars, never knew I was talking with straw men.

Haba!, do you still not get it, do you still not understand that if we follow what you said(which incidentally cannot be proved using the bible) it means that there has been a ressurection of those who will go to heaven prior to jesus resurrection , does this not negate jesus as firstfruit of those to be ressurected?
That it also means that they have already been judged ? If so, who will later be righteous and unrighteous that are ressurected in the last day?
Who will hades and the sea give up later, when they are not there any longer.?
Are you saying there are two judgements, one immediately after death and the other later ?

This is precisely the reason why I hate argueing with straw men, misinterpretations, distortions and red herring approach. For those honest hearted sincere truth seekers check this out;

Q1: does John 3:13 mean that no man has literally ascended to heaven?

Answer: that scripture if taken literally is inaccurate because, saints have gone to heaven, mark 12:26-27, luke 9:28-36. Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying Genesis 5:24, heb 11:5, 2kings 2:11. What then was Jesus talking about?

In v10-12, of John 3 we see that Jesus was talking about his authority and validity of his teaching. Jesus tells Nicodemus that he has been teaching what he knew first hand v11, then in v13 he explains why he is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom- because he alone came down from heaven and possess the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus was claiming diety.

Q2: is jesus the first person to rise from the dead?

Ans: those argueing in support of that notion, justify their stance with these scriptures; col 1:18, Acts 26:23, Rev 1:4. This notion is incorrect because some persons have been raised from the dead before Jesus' ressurection:
Elisha raised the son of the shunaminite woman 2kings 4:32-55.
Elishas dead bones raised a man from the dead 2kings 13:20-21.
Jesus himself raised a widows son luke 7:11-15. What then does it mean to say Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

The word firstborn has great significance in the bible, its greek is prototokos-first born child. In the OT the firstborn innherited his fathers place as head of the family receiving a double portion of his inheritance deut 27:17. The nation of isreal is reffered to as Gods firstborn Ex 4:22. In the NT Jesus is shown to be the "new isreal" the fulfillment of Gods promise to bless all nations through abrams seed Gal 3:7.
In reffering to Jesus as firstborn of the dead, his kingship of David is being celebrated, he is potrayed as Davids heir psalm 89:1. It also shows jesus to be the inaugurator of the new creation.

Q3: who will be the rightoeus and unrightoes that will be ressurected on the last day?

Answer: they are those that died and are still dying after Jesus' ressurection. As for those who died before jesus, many have been resurected immediately after jesus' ressurection.

[size=21pt]Mattew 27:52-53;

"And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his ressurection and went into the holy city and appeared unto many"[/size].

I believe these dead saints comprised most not all of the dead OT folks.

Q: is sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Answer: the irony anti-hellfire folks asking this question is that, they will still have to admit that the unrightoeus would be destroyed by fire going by scripture, whether their interpretation of destruction is short term or forever.

Jude 7;

"....suffering the vegeance of eternal fire"

Jesus himself compared judgement with the event of sodom and gomorrahs doom.

Luke 17:29-30;

"....it rained fire and brimstone...
Even thus shall it be on that day when the son of man shall be revealed"

This same Jesus said in mattew 25:41;

"...ye cursed into everlasting fire.."

What can be conclude from these scriptures? The event of S & G's doom is a close semblance or a close illustration of what would happen during the end of time hence the use of the word- "eternal fire" in Jude. Sodom and gomorrah not burning presently is not enough to dismiss the upcoming doom of eternal burning in hell fire. After all jesus said that those who believe in him hath/now has[present tense] eternal life. John 3:36, John 5:24. But JW's will quickly dismiss that to mean hope of everlasting life in future not presently.

Hence we can see that this is not the first time the word "eternal" has been used in that context. Bearing this in mind and comparing with other scriptures, an open minded truth seeker can now conclude that there is an eternal fire prepared for the sinners.

mekaboy:


You will find out when u get to hell.

[email] No one's going to hell, when we die, we die! [/email]

@paulgrundy

Why do you resort to this, anyways still awaiting ur answersto the questions posed to you.

This is precisely the reason why I hate argueing with straw men, misinterpretations, distortions and red herring approach. For those honest hearted sincere truth seekers check this out;

Let's check it out and see who the above is reffering to.

Q1: does John 3:13 mean that no man has literally ascended to heaven?
Answer: that scripture if taken
literally is inaccurate because,
saints have gone to heaven,
mark 12:26-27, luke 9:28-36.
Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying Genesis 5:24,
heb 11:5, 2kings 2:11. What
then was Jesus talking about?
In v10-12, of John 3 we see that Jesus was talking about his authority and validity of his
teaching. Jesus tells Nicodemus that he has been
teaching what he knew first
hand v11, then in v13 he
explains why he is uniquely
qualified to teach of the
kingdom- because he alone
came down from heaven and
possess the knowledge to
teach people about heaven.
Jesus was claiming diety.

Nicodemus, a Pharisee, came to see jesus. He said to jesus, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
Notice what this man said , he said he knew jesus came from God. He knew jesus had authority from God who is in heaven and has validity in his teachings cus God was with jesus. He wanted to know more, not to be told what he already knows in a non literal manner as it is being tried to be explained above.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the
kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
Paulgrundy tried to explain that enoch and elijah and the faithful people of old went to heaven before jesus came, but jesus said you must be born again to attain such feat.
Now ill like to as him if there is any record in the scriptures of any of those people being born again and what born again means.

Nicodemus learning something new asks “How can someone be born when they are old?, “Surely they cannot enter
a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Jesus answered, “Very truly I
tell you, no one can enter the
kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

To enter heaven, you have to be born of water and spirit. Ill like to ask here. Is there any one of old born of water and spirit ? Cus without that, they cannot enter heaven.

“How can this be?” nicodemus asks . Then jesus told him “You are Israel’s teacher,”,and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

In simple plain English ," no one has gone into heaven except the son of man who came from heaven."
Is it wrong to take this statement literal ?
Has anyone ascended to heaven before jesus ?
Some claim that elijah and enoch went to heaven, but when we look into the scritures we find these as false.

1 cor 15 :20 says : But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
These verse explains that jesus is the first to be ressurected in a manner that was later explained in 1 cor chapter 15. Some versions translated that verse as :
"He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died."
"the first one offered in the harvest of those who have
died."

After jesus resurrection what then happened ? Hebrews chapter 9 helps us to know .

Heb 9: 12- He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
(jesus obtained eternal redemption for humans with his own blood.)

Heb 9:13,14- The blood of
goats and bulls and the ashes
of a heifer sprinkled on those
who are ceremonially unclean
sanctify them so that they are
outwardly clean. How much
more, then, will the blood of
Christ, who through the eternal
Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse
our consciences from acts that
lead to death, so that we may
serve the living God!
( the blood of jesus more more important than the blood of animals used in those days )

Heb 9:15,16- For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new
covenant, that those who are
called may receive the
promised eternal inheritance—
now that he has died as a
ransom to set them free from
the sins committed under the
first covenant.
In the case of a will, it is
necessary to prove the death
of the one who made it, because a will is in force
only when somebody has
died; it never takes effect while
the one who made it is living.
This is why even the first
covenant was not put into
effect without blood.
( in the new covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. This covenant was not initiated until jesus came to earth , I wonder why some say people before jesus came benefited from a covenant that was not initiated before jesus came.
It went further to state that "In the case of a will, it is
necessary to prove the death
of the one who made it, because a will is in force
only when somebody has
died; it never takes effect while
the one who made it is living."
So in the these case of jesus promise of heavenly inheritance, it does come into effect unless jesus died first, to provide the ransom. Just as the first covenant does not come into effect without blood, the second covenant does not come into effect without the presentation of jesus blood as ransom.
So therefore, it is verry verry wrong to state that some people who died before jesus presented the ransome sacrifice benefited from it before it was giving. so no one could use jesus ransome to enter heaven until jesus gave it.
Read verse 19 to 22

Heb 9:23 -It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.(in conclusion, man cannot enter heaven without these being done first )

You can find further proofs if you read these verses:
John 14:2, 3.
Hebrew 6:19, 20.
Hebrew 10:19, 20
In their resurrection these must bear “the image of the heavenly one,” Christ Jesus,
in order to ascend to the
heavens of the spirit plane, for
“flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.— 1Co 15:42-50.

Did mark 12:26-27, say that the dead have gone to heaven, no!

What did jesus call the events recorded in luke 9:28-36? A vision!
Can enoch and elijah enter heaven without dying ? For flesh and blood cannot do that!
What did apostle say about those faithful servants of God who lived before jesus ?
Heb 11:13 - All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

To cover a lie another lie must be told .

To be continued ......

So far a quick comparison with some of the stuff dolphinheart, jessika and jozy has been spewing is even in jwfacts.com- under watchtowers contradictory interpretations of Daniel and Revelation prophecy. Its very ironic when they label me confused when they are indeed the confused ones.

I will make sure I devote my next set of threads to expose the ridiculous, back and forth stances on this subject.

Tobiee:
No one's going to hell, when we die, we die!

They turn manure like every other living things . Dont mind this brainw.ashed religio.tards

paulGrundy:
So far a quick comparison with some of the stuff dolphinheart, jessika and jozy has been spewing is even in jwfacts.com- under watchtowers contradictory interpretations of Daniel and Revelation prophecy. Its very ironic when they label me confused when they are indeed the confused ones.

I will make sure I devote my next set of threads to expose the ridiculous, back and forth stances on this subject.

Silly churchman , we all see how you keep biting your fingers and struggling hard to cover your shame .

I cant stop laughing when you said the statement ofthe bible jesus if taking literal is inaccurate . Really ? Am happy this is coming from a so - called christian .

A male introduce sper.m into the female and a zygote is formed , it kept on growin until it is finally given birth to as a little baby, the little baby bcome old and died , then buried . My question is:when exactly did the idle soul man enter d baby?

Of course another lie will be told, that's why the watchtower does not have one opinion on a simple issue as this!

Those using being born again as the only criteria to make heaven (before Jesus).
Have forgotten Enoch abi?? Who walked with God and God took him away, did he give his life to Jesus? (Jesus hadn't yet come in flesh).

And to even tell lies on Jesus' head, disgusts me!! ):<

Jesus never called the event at the transfiguration a parable or vision! He was visited live by moses and Elijah!

Luke 9:28-36King James Version (KJV)

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Off course am not suprised you don't know this! Instead of studying your bible, you are quoting gibberish from watchtowers studies in the scriptures

paulGrundy:
Of course another lie will be told, that's why the watchtower does not have one opinion on a simple issue as this!

Those using being born again as the only criteria to make heaven (before Jesus).
Have forgotten Enoch abi?? Who walked with God and God took him away, did he give his life to Jesus? (Jesus hadn't yet come in flesh).

And to even tell lies on Jesus' head, disgusts me!! ):<


Jesus never called the event at the transfiguration a parable or vision! He was visited live by moses and Elijah![/b]

Luke 9:28-36King James Version (KJV)

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Off course am not suprised you don't know this! Instead of studying your bible, you are quoting gibberish from watchtowers studies in the scriptures

@ red " as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: " Tell THE VISION to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead" "" Matt 17:9

paulgrundy

For those who change what the scriptures says, the false changes will eventualy hook them .
If it is believed that jesus
Made that statement to nicodemus to imply that he is the only one that came to earth from heaven . They do not know that using the transfiguration to butress there belief that elijah and moses are alive in heaven nulifies the first Belief , for it shows then that jesus is not the only man who came from heaven

Q2: is Jesus the first person to rise from the dead?
Ans: those argueing in support
of that notion, justify their
stance with these scriptures;
col 1:18, Acts 26:23, Rev 1:4.
This notion is incorrect because some persons have been raised from the dead before Jesus' ressurection:
Elisha raised the son of the
shunaminite woman 2kings
4:32-55.
Elishas dead bones raised a
man from the dead 2kings
13:20-21.
Jesus himself raised a widows
son luke 7:11-15. What then
does it mean to say Jesus is
the firstborn from the dead.
The word firstborn has great
significance in the bible, its
greek is prototokos-first born
child. In the OT the firstborn
innherited his fathers place as
head of the family receiving a
double portion of his inheritance
deut 27:17. The nation of isreal
is reffered to as Gods firstborn
Ex 4:22. In the NT Jesus is
shown to be the "new isreal" the fulfillment of Gods promise to bless all nations through
abrams seed Gal 3:7.
In reffering to Jesus as
firstborn of the dead, his
kingship of David is being
celebrated, he is potrayed as
Davids heir psalm 89:1. It also
shows Jesus to be the
inaugurator of the new
creation .

One can see all the join join above and know it has no head, tail or direction .

Col 1: 18- And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the
beginning and the firstborn
from among the dead, so that
in everything he might have
the supremacy.
(in what way is jesus the beginning and firstborn from among the dead ?)

Acts 26:23-that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own
people and to the Gentiles."
(can you explain why these verse says jesus is the first to rise from the dead when the scripture has shown that there had been previous resurrection?)

1 cor 15:20- But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.

Why is jesus the first,firstfruit and firstborn of this those who are to be resurrected? The answer lies in the form of those who are to be ressurected . All other resurrections prior to the resurrection of jesus was done in the flesh/perishable/physical body . But jesus is the first , followed later by his disciples and followers to be resurrected with a spirit/inperishable body. That is why jesus is said to "became a life giving spirit" and those with heavenly life in view will share in the divine nature .

Whateva explanation you try to give, the firsttborn is the firstborn cus he is the first to be born ! He is the first in wateva category you want to put it , therefore the preference.

To be continued......

CAPTIVATOR:


@ red " as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: " Tell THE VISION to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead" "" Matt 17:9

Lol , bro aint not suprised though . He already said he will tell a lie

paulGrundy
Of course , another lie will be told

And he told that lie .

paulGrundy
Jesus never called the event at the transfiguration a parable or a vision

CAPTIVATOR:


@ red " as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: " Tell THE VISION to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead" "" Matt 17:9

New International Version
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

New Living Translation
As they went back down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

there are two greek renderings of the word- vision;
1. optasia-- which means a supernatural appearance.

2. horama-- which means that which is seen.

the greek rendering for the word vision in mattew 17:9 is- horama- meaning that which is seen.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3705.htm

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/17-9.htm

dolphinheart:
paulgrundy

For those who change what the scriptures says, the false changes will eventualy hook them .
If it is believed that jesus
Made that statement to nicodemus to imply that he is the only one that came to earth from heaven . They do not know that using the transfiguration to butress there belief that elijah and moses are alive in heaven nulifies the first Belief , for it shows then that jesus is not the only man who came from heaven



One can see all the join join above and know it has no head, tail or direction .

Col 1: 18- And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the
beginning and the firstborn
from among the dead, so that
in everything he might have
the supremacy.
(in what way is jesus the beginning and firstborn from among the dead ?)

Acts 26:23-that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own
people and to the Gentiles."
(can you explain why these verse says jesus is the first to rise from the dead when the scripture has shown that there had been previous resurrection?)

1 cor 15:20- But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.

Why is jesus the first,firstfruit and firstborn of this those who are to be resurrected? The answer lies in the form of those who are to be ressurected . All other resurrections prior to the resurrection of jesus was done in the flesh/perishable/physical body . But jesus is the first , followed later by his disciples and followers to be resurrected with a spirit/inperishable body. That is why jesus is said to "became a life giving spirit" and those with heavenly life in view will share in the divine nature .

Whateva explanation you try to give, the firsttborn is the firstborn cus he is the first to be born ! He is the first in wateva category you want to put it , therefore the preference.

To be continued......

and then you deliberately ignored the most important aspect of my quote that refuted your garbage. thats is precisely why i hate responding to your quotes. you create a mis-representation of another mans quote and attack it, and start calling names. Or is this a diversion technique?

This notion is incorrect because some persons have been raised from the dead before Jesus' ressurection:
Elisha raised the son of the
shunaminite woman 2kings
4:32-55.
Elishas dead bones raised a
man from the dead 2kings
13:20-21.
Jesus himself raised a widows
son luke 7:11-15

Whether the dead prior Jesus did not rise up with a physical body or they didn't. (No scriptural proof). It does not change the fact that Jesus is NOT the first person to ressurect from the dead, hence your claim is unscriptural and incorrect.

robot. keep spewing watchtower propaganda.

dolphinheart:


You can see through his shifting , he can't hold on to his words. He is a far from the truth as his real child is as far from the one displayed by his moniker.

Like a house made of cards , so is their beliefs, remove one lie, the rest come tumbling down!

Blessed are the apostates of the sect that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, but are not, and do lie

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

@paulgrundy

Q3: who will be the rightoeus and unrightoes that will be ressurected on the last day?
Answer: they are those that
died and are still dying after
Jesus' ressurection. As for
those who died before Jesus,
many have been resurected
immediately after Jesus'
ressurection.
Mattew 27:52-53;
"And the graves were opened,
and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose,
And came out of the graves
after his ressurection and went
into the holy city and appeared
unto many".
I believe these dead saints
comprised most not all of the
dead OT folks.

Read ur bible Bro.
Read on the resurrection process as layed down by apostle paul.
If these people where elijah abraham,enoch and co, it makes all ur views look twisted. Is abraham one of them?, is elijah and enoch one of those saints? Are they still on earth today? If not where are they and how did they get there.?

When one runs out of proof to support a lie, speculations will start coming out.

Pls dnt speculate, use the scriptures to support ur views.

MizJanet:



[s]Silly churchman , we all see how you keep biting your fingers and struggling hard to cover your shame .

I cant stop laughing when you said the statement ofthe bible jesus if taking literal is inaccurate . Really ? Am happy this is coming from a so - called christian .

A male introduce sper.m into the female and a zygote is formed , it kept on growin until it is finally given birth to as a little baby, the little baby bcome old and died , then buried . My question is:when exactly did the idle soul man enter d baby?[/s]

antichrist supporting jw fellow antichrists

@ paulgrundy

Those using being born again as the only criteria to make heaven (before Jesus).
Have forgotten Enoch abi??
Who walked with God and God
took him away, did he give his
life to Jesus? (Jesus hadn't yet
come in flesh).

You have been giving time and chance to explain jesus statement that one cannot see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. You keep on denying that statement without telling us why.
U use enoch as an excuse, these same enoch in which it was not mentioned in the scriptures how and where he was taken. For ur mind you Just concluded for God that he was taken to heaven despite numerous scripture showing you that was not the case.
It was shown to you with scripture that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
It was shown to you with scripture that enoch and all other faithful men of old died and did not receive the promise.
It was shown to you that the ransom had to be payed before the inheritance can be achieved.
It was shown to you that the old covenant and its cleasing of sin process was not good enough to enter heaven.

Yet you hold on to these false views , you now speculate on time and categories of when and where they where resurrected cus grouping them together into one resurrection will expose you.

God, the creator of adam told adam where he will go to when he dies. Yet you say its a lie and use speculations to determine where adam is.

And to even tell lies on Jesus' head, disgusts me!! ):<
Jesus never called the event
at the transfiguration a
parable or vision! He was
visited live by moses and
Elijah!

See how ur views are now contradicting each other. First jesus is the only man that has ascended and come from heaven. Later abraham and elijah where literarily seen on earth after ascending to heaven .


Abeg, those question I asked are still pending, dnt run away from them .

paulGrundy:


there are two greek renderings of the word- vision;
1. optasia-- which means a supernatural appearance.

2. horama-- which means that which is seen.

the greek rendering for the word vision in mattew 17:9 is- horama- meaning that which is seen.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3705.htm

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/17-9.htm

The Greek for "vision " as used in Matt 17:9 is "horama."

Some scripture verses where the Greek work "horama" is found and how it is translated.

Acts 10:17
New International Version
"While Peter was wondering
about the meaning of the
vision"....

New Living Translation
"Peter was very perplexed.
What could the vision mean?".....

Acts 11:5
New International Version
".....and in a trance I saw
a vision."......

New Living Translation
....." and while I was
praying, I went into a trance
and saw a vision."....

Acts 12:9
...."he thought
he was seeing a vision....."

New Living Translation
".....But all the time he
thought it was a vision....."

Acts 16:9
New International Version
"During the night Paul had a
vision"...

New Living Translation
"That night Paul had a vision:"

Acts 16:10
New International Version
"After Paul had seen the vision,"

...................................
horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος,
τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama

Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-
ah)

Short Definition: a spectacle,
vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision,
that which is seen.


HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3705 hórama (a
neuter noun derived from
3708 /horáō, "to see, spiritual
and mentally" – a vision
(spiritual seeing), focusing on
the impact it has on the one
beholding the vision (spiritual
seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

Vision:
an experience of seeing
someone or something in a
dream or trance, or as a
supernatural apparition.

Read the bible Bro, ur translations use "vision to represent "horama".

dolphinheart:





The Greek for "vision " as used in Matt 17:9 is "horama."

Some scripture verses where the Greek work "horama" is found and how it is translated.

Acts 10:17
New International Version
"While Peter was wondering
about the meaning of the
vision"....

New Living Translation
"Peter was very perplexed.
What could the vision mean?".....

Acts 11:5
New International Version
".....and in a trance I saw
a vision."......

New Living Translation
....." and while I was
praying, I went into a trance
and saw a vision."....

Acts 12:9
...."he thought
he was seeing a vision....."

New Living Translation
".....But all the time he
thought it was a vision....."

Acts 16:9
New International Version
"During the night Paul had a
vision"...

New Living Translation
"That night Paul had a vision:"

Acts 16:10
New International Version
"After Paul had seen the vision,"

...................................
horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος,
τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama

Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-
ah)

Short Definition: a spectacle,
vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision,
that which is seen.


HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3705 hórama (a
neuter noun derived from
3708 /horáō, "to see, spiritual
and mentally" – a vision
(spiritual seeing), focusing on
the impact it has on the one
beholding the vision (spiritual
seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

Vision:
an experience of seeing
someone or something in a
dream or trance, or as a
supernatural apparition.

Read the bible Bro, ur translations use "vision to represent "horama".

so now the problem is how you want it rendered. interesting. just so you know scriptures are read in their context. ok lemme give another point to attack in v5 of mattew 17, a voice spoke out of heaven which said this is my beloved son in whom am well pleased-- the same thing that happened when Jesus was baptized. can we say that Jesus' baptism was a supernal vision too?

[quote author=dolphinheart post=38321402]
@ paulgrundy

U use enoch as an excuse, these same enoch in which it was not mentioned in the scriptures how and where he was taken

but i can suggest where he was taken too-- God took him to your backyard.

. For ur mind you Just concluded for God that he was taken to heaven despite numerous scripture showing you that was not the case.
It was shown to you with scripture that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
It was shown to you with scripture that enoch and all other faithful men of old died and did not receive the promise.
It was shown to you that the ransom had to be payed before the inheritance can be achieved.
It was shown to you that the old covenant and its cleasing of sin process was not good enough to enter heaven.

if old covenant cleansing is not enough to enter heaven, by your statement you are implying that those in faith's hall of fame who died before Jesus wont make heaven (acording to your position).


.

God, the creator of adam told adam where he will go to when he dies. Yet you say its a lie and use speculations to determine where adam is.

oga some folks has ressurected and been to heaven before the commencement of the new covenant. mattew 27. hence you points hold no water.

See how ur views are now contradicting each other. First jesus is the only man that has ascended and come from heaven. Later abraham and elijah where literarily seen on earth after ascending to heaven .


Abeg, those question I asked are still pending, dnt run away from them .

Are you deliberately misreading my quotes or you dont understand or even read them @ all.

this was what i said;

Q1: does John 3:13 mean that no man has literally ascended to heaven?

Answer: that scripture if taken literally is inaccurate because, saints have gone to heaven, mark 12:26-27, luke 9:28-36. Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying Genesis 5:24, heb 11:5, 2kings 2:11. What then was Jesus talking about?

In v10-12, of John 3 we see that Jesus was talking about his authority and validity of his teaching. Jesus tells Nicodemus that he has been teaching what he knew first hand v11, then in v13 he explains why he is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom-[i] because he alone came down from heaven [/i]and possess the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus was claiming diety.

Q2: is Jesus the first person to rise from the dead?

any way am not suprised. like watchtower like jehovah witness.

honest hearted open minded folks should feel free to ask me questions.

johnw74:

antichrist supporting jw fellow antichrists

I pray God in his infinite mercy , forgive you .

@ captivator , Jehovah use you to expose his lie !

paulGrundy:


so now the problem is how you want it rendered. interesting. just so you know scriptures are read in their context. ok lemme give another point to attack in v5 of mattew 17, a voice spoke out of heaven which said this is my beloved son in whom am well pleased-- the same thing that happened when Jesus was baptized. can we say that Jesus' baptism was a supernal vision too?

Your case is serious .
Firstly , Show me the word vision " horama" in Matthew 3:17 ?

paulGrundy:


so now the problem is how you want it rendered. interesting. just so you know scriptures are read in their context. ok lemme give another point to attack in v5 of mattew 17, a voice spoke out of heaven which said this is my beloved son in whom am well pleased-- the same thing that happened when Jesus was baptized. can we say that Jesus' baptism was a supernal vision too?

Oga, dnt change the topic, dnt start another attack when one has not been cleared yet.
I've given you instances where "horama" is translated as "vision" in the scriptures versions you quoted.
I've explained what "horama" is.
Yet you say I lie that jesus did not say "vision" when it is glaring that it is you that does not read ur bible.

Pls explain what jesus said to nicodemus and elijah and moses coming to meet jesus and let's see if it wunt contradict it and the holes filled with speculations.

@ paulgrundy

but i can suggest where he was taken too-- God took him to your backyard.

Bro, use scriptural facts to support ur suggestion, do not use suggestions as the foundation of ur beliefs.
1. The scripture did not say where God took enoch .
2. Apostle paul said he died like all other faithful men he mentioned.
3. Apostle paul said he, like all other faithful men did not receive the promise when they died, but saw it afar off.

A good Christian will look at these facts as stated in the bible and explain it, Yet you keep suggesting otherwise without giving ur own view of the scriptures quoted to you.

if old covenant cleansing is not enough to enter heaven, by your statement you are implying
that those in faith's hall of fame who died before Jesus won't make heaven (acording to your position).

I restate again :
1. It was shown to you with
scripture that flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of
God.
2. It was shown to you with
scripture that enoch and all
other faithful men of old died
and did not receive the
promise.
3. It was shown to you that the
ransom had to be payed
before the inheritance can be
achieved.
4. It was shown to you that the
old covenant and its cleasing
of sin process was not good
enough to enter heaven.

Does not all the points shown to you show you that prior to the establishment of the new covenant , no imperfect human can enter heaven?.
They died like adam died, they return to dust like adam did. On that day they died, their thoughts do perish.

They can only make heaven only if they are part of the first resurrection.
Now who is part of the first resurrection and who is not, but part of other resurrection. These question I have asked you and u refused to answer. Answering that question will help you to understand who goes or is in heaven.

As at when this verse was written , David did not ascend to heaven
Acts 2:34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

oga some folks has
ressurected and been to
heaven before the
commencement of the new
covenant. mattew 27. hence
you points hold no water.

Show us where it is stated that they were resurrected to heaven.
My point is based on a scripture where it is said that God told adam where he came from and where it will go to when he dies. Yet you suggest otherwise and still refuse to address that scripture.

Are you deliberately misreading my quotes or you don't understand or even read them @ all.
this was what i said;
Q1: does John 3:13 mean that
no man has literally ascended
to heaven?
Answer: that scripture if taken
literally is inaccurate because,
saints have gone to heaven,
mark 12:26-27, luke 9:28-36.
Enoch and Elijah were taken
up without dying Genesis
5:24, heb 11:5, 2kings 2:11.
What then was Jesus talking
about?
In v10-12, of John 3 we see
that Jesus was talking about
his authority and validity of his
teaching. Jesus tells
Nicodemus that he has been
teaching what he knew first
hand v11, then in v13 he
explains why he is uniquely
qualified to teach of the
kingdom-[i] because he alone came down from heaven [/ i]and possess the knowledge to teach people about heaven.
Jesus was claiming diety.
Q2: is Jesus the first person to
rise from the dead?
any way am not suprised. like
watchtower like jehovah
witness.

John 3:13 :No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Ur statement : because he alone came down from heaven and possess the knowledge to teach people about heaven.

Conclusion: jesus alone has ascended and descended.

If my conclusion is wrong , pls. Re -explain the part "no one has ascended to heaven except .." and let's see if it wunt contradict ur explanation on moses and elijah.

Pls answer the questions posed to you a while ago.

Jozzy4:


I pray God in his infinite mercy , forgive you .

Truth has no need for forgiveness, it's true that those who belong to the sect that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses are antichrists, you have been blinded, but Christians can see it.

quote:
Additionally, the Jehovah's Witness' organization requires of its members regular weekly attendance at their "Bible Study" meetings where they are repeatedly indoctrinated with anti-Christian teachings. This is done by reading the Watchtower magazine, following along with what it says, reading the questions it asks, and reciting the answers it gives. In other words, the Watchtower Organization carefully trains its members to let the Organization do their thinking for them. For confirmation of this, please read Does the Watchtower organization control the JW's thinking?
https://carm.org/is-the-jehovahs-witness-religion-christian

Just read through that one site and see all the false doctrines of those who call themselves Jehovah's witnesses, but are not, and do lie, and see all the instances of where they change the Bible to suit their false doctrines, and then if you were not blinded you would see as Christians know, that those who belong to the sect that calls themselves Jehovah's Witnesses are antichrists indeed.

johnw74:

Truth has no need for forgiveness, it's true that those who belong to the sect that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses are antichrists
quote:
Additionally, the Jehovah's Witness' organization requires of its members regular weekly attendance at their "Bible Study" meetings where they are repeatedly indoctrinated with anti-Christian teachings. This is done by reading the Watchtower magazine, following along with what it says, reading the questions it asks, and reciting the answers it gives. In other words, the Watchtower Organization carefully trains its members to let the Organization do their thinking for them. For confirmation of this, please read Does the Watchtower organization control the JW's thinking?
https://carm.org/is-the-jehovahs-witness-religion-christian

BIG Lie , Am a regular subsriber of the watchtower and Awake magazine , its bible based and it encourage independent thinking. Dont be suprised that many pastors read them too .

@ johnw74
@ jozzy4
@ everybody else

Watchtower Announcing
Jehovah's Kingdom is an
illustrated religious magazine,
published semimonthly in 251
languages by Jehovah's
Witnesses via the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and printed in
various branch offices around
the world. Along with its
companion magazine, Awake!,

The Watchtower —Public Edition is the most widely circulated magazine in
the world, with an average print run of nearly 53,000,000 copies per month.

all involved are volunteers. they are not there for money

Unlike some religious books where the authors have their names boldly written for recognition and showmanship, The names of the authors (except in first- person life stories), and other publishing staff are never included in the magazine. they do their work not for public praise.

Since the first issue of The
Watchtower in 1879, with 6,000
copies printed, circulation of
The Watchtower continued to
increase, and the magazine
has not missed an issue. (Can you beat that!, over hundred years and no issue is missed)

The magazine is printed in
nineteen different countries
about 25% of the total is printed at one of the organization's printeries in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
(go to eigeduma, edo state and see how work is done in a peaceful and beautiful environment.

The Public Edition has an
average monthly print run of
about 53,000,000 copies,
making it the magazine with the largest circulation in the world.

The magazine is distributed by
Jehovah's Witnesses, who
consider their preaching work
to be a public service.

From March 1, 1990, the
journals were made available at no cost, on a freewill donation basis in the United States, with the stated purpose of simplifying their Bible
educational work and
distinguishing themselves from those who commercialize
religion. The article "Use
Our Literature Wisely", which
appeared in the May 1990
issue of Our Kingdom Ministry,
stated that "there are growing
pressures against all religious
elements" and went on to say
that their main concern was to
move ahead in the worldwide
preaching work, "without
hindrance."

The sale of Jehovah's
Witnesses' literature was
gradually phased out in other
countries, and The Watchtower
has been distributed free of
charge worldwide since
January 2000, its printing being funded by voluntary donations from Jehovah's Witnesses and members of the public.

All these achievement from an organization that does not collect tithe or force its members to make offerings.

They do their work willingly and happily ,just as true christians are supposed to do, going from house to house as jesus commanded, not in private jets, armoured jeeps or expensive worldly materials.

These good news must be preached in all the earth, and then the end will come

After Jesus’ death and resurrection, his disciples
continued to preach “from house to house.” ( Acts 5:42) As Jesus did, they too preached in informal settings and in public places. ( John 4:7-26; 18:20; Acts 17:17)

Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses use those same methods to preach to all people.

Jesus indicated that not
everyone would listen. (Matthew 10:14; 24:37-39) .

But I will continue to preach , to save myself and those who listen to me.