Your recent 57th birthday was celebrated with pomp and pageantry, even without invitation to the media?

To me, 57 is not very significant to celebrate. You are more likely to celebrate like 60, 70 or any such round figure. I didn't plan to celebrate it; all I wanted to do was pray and relieve my mother of the labour pain by going to her to have her prayers and blessings and come home to have a second prayer. That has been my tradition.

That was until the 57 council and development areas chairmen said, I created more councils to bring the number to 57 and I was going to be 57 on the 27. They said they wanted to celebrate me.

I tried to resist but they refused to burge. In fact, I started entertaining fear that if people were going to do that, maybe something else could be in the offing. That was how they took it over.

Then the National Assembly groups said they were going to do theirs. So many people joined, including women, calling for prayers. I was shocked and impressed and I thank God and the people.

I never spent even one kobo of mine on the celebration; the people took charge. I didn't do any planning, order than invite the Alfas to come and pray for me. So many Nigerians are angry with me for not inviting them, but I never planned for all that took place, the people did and only asked me to make myself available at certain times.

The co-conspirator, perhaps, would be my wife; maybe she tried to 'detain' me one way or the other. How the governor and members of my former cabinet planned the colloquium and all that, I didn't know.

Does such appreciation encourage you to do more of what you are doing?

Yes, it does. I was moved emotionally and psychologically and energised. It is extremely fulfilled to be appreciated; to see the response of people here.

I just don't know how to thank them, but in terms of being more committed and firm, it is a stimulant to really do more, to be focused and ready to take on further challenges, as far as constitutional democracy in Nigeria is concerned.

What is your opinion on the much-touted formation of a mega party?

To me, like minds should come together to form a party. They should come together under one umbrella to pursue political agenda under a common progressive platform that is in line with the wishes and aspirations of the people. That will kill and bury the dead ideas being propagated by the ultra-conservatives and unleash hope and prosperity on this country.

However, you have several hurdles in a race. Before you get to the last hurdle, you first of all conquer the linesman with the starting gun, not to first of all beat the time or fail in taking off.

To me right now, we have several electoral cases still pending in the courts or tribunals. We must first resolve such cases.

Secondly, electoral reform is the primary thing that we should face. We have always succeeded in tackling single-item issue, because if you have a mega party now, no matter how mega it is in name and appearance, it does not clear the take-off hurdle in its defined destination and if all other obstacles are not well-analysed and worked at, it will end up a failure.

This is because if the purpose is to gain power on behalf of the people and be entrusted with the power, if the system is cancerous and terrible and sick and you don't care to remove the cancer first, you won't get there. There would be premature death.

No mater how mega we are, if we don't focus on the problem of electoral malpractice and its evil, and you don't work for a situation where you can fight and get rid of the impact of this evil in our body politic, you will still have rigging expeditions and intimidation will continue to flourish.

If you have riggers in power, the people would be denied their rights and the prosperity that should accompany a successful election. So year in, year out, tenure in, tenure out, the people would continue to be denied these things and Nigeria could end up with chaotic elections that could lead to mutual destruction.

The progressives have always found it difficult to come together and work as one. Is that not going to be an impediment to the mega party?

No! I disagree with such theory; let's rekindle our sense of history. At any given time, the progressives have always mounted efforts and come together behind one single issue and have always won. The only thing is that they have not gotten into power.

Before the National Democratic Coalition (NADECO), we got together to say the military must go, leading to two parties, the Social Democratic Party (SDP) and National Republic Convention (NRC).

We had elections, which we won, but it was annulled. At the end, Gen. Ibrahim Babangida stepped aside. It was a single issue- we needed a change. We won, but we did not get power. The conservatives manipulated us and installed Chief Ernest Shonekan as head of the Interim National Government (ING).

We insisted that Shonekan must go and the June 12, 1993 mandate to the late Chief MKO Abiola restored. We won, because Shonekan went, but we didn't get power. The late Gen. Sani Abacha took over instead. We won, because somehow Abacha left the stage, but we didn't get power, because in the 1999 election, we were rigged out and Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo came in.

Then came anti-third term, which was a single item. We won, but we didn't get power.

So when they say progressives cannot come together successfully, at the same time, they are the ones who would say the parties should evolve. But where in any of the successful democracies in the world had the parties been left to evolve, without conditions stipulated for the number of political parties that you must have?

Even the United State (US), for the two-party system to succeed, they had to put several high hurdles before an independent candidate or a third party. Five hundred years of British democracy have been based on two-party system, until the rules were relaxed later on after they had gained some stability and a third party started coming on gradually.

The conservatives will always give you the problems for not getting together; they created the room after getting to power by relaxing them and allowing all manner of parties to emerge and tear themselves apart.

The cure is two-party system; let it come one way or the other. Whether through legislation or whatever, it has to be two-party system. If we had managed the two-party system under the Babangida regime up till now, we would have cured the problem of instability of the political parties in the country by now.

Here in Nigeria, people want to establish their own parties. But why do they call it party, except being a group of people with common ideas and agenda?

Show me any of the advanced democracies that is not constrained to two-party system anyhow? Is it not indirect legislation in the US, through the creation of those hurdles for a third party or independent candidate?

What the progressives could not achieve in the past, as cohesive as they were, is it possible to achieve that now when they are splintered into several parties?

It is achievable, but you have to separate liars and pretenders from the true progressives. The pretenders exhibit some tendencies by which you can know them.

Are you actively involved in the formation of the mega party?

I am more concerned about electoral reforms now than mega party. Once you get that done, you will be able to put together a party that can match any other party in the quest for power. I want a party I can leave behind for the younger generation to either work with or disagree with.

We should work for the legislation that can bring about a two-party system. This arena or channel political prostitution must be closed, because political parties are not like cars or houses that people own. Your opponent, the party in power, will always try to manipulate you to the extent that it will be impossible for you to take power. Politics is all about intrigues and winning power, just as those in power would want to retrain it, using infiltration of your ranks and thwarting your efforts.

That is how the conservatives, particularly the likes of Obasanjo, weakened the opposition, starting with his appointment of other parties' chairmen into his cabinet. Why did we not see it when they allowed all sorts of parties to emerge and be registered, rather than celebrating and saying the parties should evolve on their own?

When he appointed All Peoples Party's Mahmud Waziri as an aide and took all the leaders on, nothing was done. He gave them the carrot and they accepted because of democracy of the stomach. When they purged later, they needed transfusion. Do you blame the ruling party for doing that? No, it is about power and it is not served alakat; you have to do everything that is morally legitimate to get it.

So, if conservatives succeeded in creating instability when we had three parties, we have given them all the rooms in the world to perpetuate themselves in power by increasing the number of parties.

We must first of all change the conditions that allow electoral irregularities to take place. We should make those beneficiaries of stolen mandates to pay for it, by denying them the benefits. We have over-burdened the judiciary by not doing so.

So what is your take on the electoral reform approved by the Federal Executive Council (FEC)? What should or should not be there?

I disagree with FEC on some issues. Show me a political prophet and I will follow. If you are the president and you are to appoint the empire, you will definitely want to appoint somebody sympathetic to your party that would make it possible for you to win the elections. Nobody is an angel.

Anybody that says allowing the National Judicial Council (NJC) to appoint chairman of the electoral body is not right is not telling the truth, because it is a delegated authority that would bring about transparency, strengthening of the system and independence to the matter of appointing the electoral umpire.

That would not amount to encroaching on the executive powers. After all, the President approves who becomes the Chief Justice of Nigeria and others.

The modified open-secret ballot system, to my mind, is best for Nigeria. So also is security on election days very crucial. But unless we punish and take away the stolen mandate from a collaborator in cases of electoral fraud, we may not make much progress.

You can blame the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) 200 times, but is it alone in this?

If there is no giver, there will be no taker. If there is no rigger, there will be no manipulation. INEC cannot do it alone; it has collaborators. We should find appropriate punishment for such people to deter perpetrators of electoral malpractices.

We should not lump criminal law with electoral malpractices and say you must prove beyond reasonable doubt. After all, death is proven beyond reason doubt only when the dead is in the grave.

Your party, Action Congress (AC), has been a victim of elastic time frame for adjudication of electoral matters. Are you at home with FEC's rejection of a time frame for determining electoral cases?

I think we must find a middle way of the two. We could say nobody with a case challenging his/her mandate should take office for the first six months after election. A situation where one of the parties has access to public funds makes it easy for him or her to manipulate things, including paying legal fees from public treasury.

Not swearing in any winner with pending cases in the first six months will help in reducing the propensity for criminal activities during the elections. If a candidate knows that he or she could be disqualified from future political activities for engaging in electoral fraud, that person will think twice before perpetration such acts.

I also think the governorship dispute should be allowed to get to the Supreme Court, after six months at the lower courts.

Then how do you fill the vacuum that could rise?

The state Chief Judge or Speaker of the state assembly could be allowed to take over in acting capacity.

But the tenure of the Speaker will around that time be about rolling over?

Then the Chief Judge could step in temporarily.

That could go against the principle of separation of power?

That would be because of the corruption in the system that had not been cured. If the corruption is cured, this kind of scenario would be reduced to the barest minimum and judicial intervention would not be necessary. We have to find a way around it.

INEC should also be sanctioned for colluding with individuals or political parties to rig election, unlike now that it is not held accountable. To worsen the situation, INEC is not the one with the burden of proof.

What is your relationship with your party's presidential candidate in the last election and former Vice President Atiku Abubakar since his visit to Obasanjo and his moves to return to the PDP (until recently)?

People have been speculating and I leave it at that. I will talk when it is the appropriate time to do so. I don't want to comment on that matter now.

Sometimes, silence is golden. When you have gone through a bad voyage, to think of it might bring about depression.

Are you not disappointed?

It is a bad voyage, I won't comment further on it. I have just given you an analogy.

You have left office, and so has Obasanjo. What is your relationship with him now?

We didn't have any relationship before he went into office, so we don't have any relationship after he left office. He is a soldier, while I am a civilian.

In office, we were given different responsibilities that were clearly defined in the constitution and I pursued my own end diligently and vigorously. We had our terms, at the end, he went his way and I went my way.

I know that I have deepened the democratic culture of the country, as well as that of judicial process and reform. When he illegally seized Lagos State council's funds, instead of taking to the streets, I headed for the court. I did not act as an interpreter of the law; I went to the interpreter when there was a dispute.

That is how to develop a society, an institution and the culture.

What is your relationship with President Umaru Musa Yar'Adua?

He is my friend. He is in a different party and I am in a different party, but I don't deny my friends. Let them deny me, if they want, but I don't deny them. It is my policy.

I found Yar'Adua as a very godly and friendly individual since I knew him. Since he was chosen to be President of this country, I cannot question God or make enmity out that. But I have not joined his party. He can hold on to his party, while I hold on to mine. We can meet elsewhere.

The same thing when Atiku was the Vice President of Nigeria, he was in PDP and I was in Alliance for Democracy (AD) then, but we remained friends. Nobody questions that.

I have not gone to the President the Federal Republic of Nigeria to seek contracts, but there is a difference in the polity since he took over. The polity is calmer and we can now think clearly. He says rule of law is his mantra, we are watching that carefully. I don't want to discuss my friends on the pages of newspapers.

When it comes to the programmes of the country or electoral reforms, I will ask what is rule of law if there is no free and fair election. Instead of open combative criticism of those (Obasanjo) days, he has not taken that approach, he consults and I can only advise him privately.

But when it comes to campaigns, I will campaign against his party. I won't relent, that is an unbendable principle. We have to live to a level of political maturity in this country. Because you are in a different party doesn't make you my enemy. I still call the PDP as Poverty Development Party.

If for 10 years of its being in power, we don't have stable electricity, the party in power cannot be taken seriously. Even if you had started a nuclear power plant 10 years ago, you should have completed it by now.

I think Yar'Adua ran into a serious web of inactivities and he would have to disentangle himself first. It takes time to plan, especially as he didn't meet a good foundation. The opportunity to develop Nigeria was lost in the first eight years of our democracy.

What are the chances of AC in the coming Ekiti rerun governorship election?

AC is going to win that election. We won the first election, but for the irregularities perpetrated by the PDP and INEC. It is a cunning and dishonest person that could say he lost to a biro pen, which cannot defend itself. It is an admission of foolishness.

Who are those that pose a threat to AC in a free and fair election in Ekiti? Didn't you see their rally, how many people were there. Despite the importation from Oyo and Osun States, it was so scanty that it looked like the funeral of a wicked man. Is that what you call a rally? I don't do that type of rally. Do you think all of them believe that campaign will have any effect on the people, who have irrevocably resolved not to vote for them?

The people are progressives; they have seen the administration of Segun Oni and what he can do. If I were one of them, I won't even go back there again. When Obasanjo was President, he went to commission even health centres, what was there to commission in Ekiti under Oni?

The President and his vice even put the country at risk by the two of them gathering there at the same time. They didn't even look at the security implications.

Our people are going to vote against them. They know, that is why they are talking of soldiers and sowing uniform. You can't hear us say such things, we are confident of winning Ekiti, if the poll is free and fair. But if it is not, let them think of history of electoral crisis in Nigeria 1964 and 1983. They have to stop imposing people on us.

They asked us to go to court if we had dispute concerning the former election and we did. Now we have followed the rule of law by surrendering ourselves to rerun poll in Ekiti, as ordered by the Court of Appeal. I heard that some people said they would do everything possible to win the election, but I say no. If they try it, it would be mutually assured destruction. People will revolt; they will react if there is any imposition on them this time around.

But you don't seem to be actively and physically involved in the campaigns?

I will be going there any time from now.

Some say you are leading the onslaught of the progressives to regain the Southwest?

This is a cause I believe in. Whatever people say, I strongly believe in the cause. I believe the only way Nigerians will see progress is for the perpetrators of electoral crimes to be punished and driven out of office. I have never rigged election in my life.

As a democrat, I believe in free and fair election. Any politician who does not believe in free and fair election does not deserve the joy of victory. Look at the success we have recorded in Lagos State; it is because we know we have to serve the people before we can seek their mandate.

If we say we want dictatorship, let's find monarchs and appoint him as president and governors. If we want democracy, we must play according to the rules of democracy.

I tell the people of Ekiti to be ready to defend their victory, because they are going to win in this election. We know their feelings.

Some say the advancement of the progressives in the Southwest could act as an impetus for other parties to take the Southeast and other zones, thereby providing the much needed viable opposition or alternative to the ruling party at any time?
That is a positive thing. Let there be a model of good governance, action, transparency and purposeful government. I am proud that Lagos State is a model and a reference point.

If others can copy the idea and move with it, the country will be better for it.

Considering the fact of Governor Babatunde Fashola, do you feel vindicated in your support for him during the party's primaries?

It is like a woman, having carried pregnancy for nine months, bearing the pains, giving birth to a promising child. That is how it is for me, because the abuse, disagreement and criticisms have gone away, have been forgotten.

I am so proud to be a father of a good and promising child. It is very satisfying. That is how it should be and I am sure the people would believe me when next I come to them. I must work for the success of this administration and I am doing that.

Forget the rumours being peddled by some illiterates. There must be intrigues in politics and political enemies must try to destabilise us by saying or doing something.

In Osun State, where you are going back to square one, some people believe it might as well be wise to let go and wait for the next two years, having made your point, rather than have the election nullified, a rerun of which you are not sure you will win and could, in fact, add another two years to the tenure of the incumbent governor?

And compromise justice and the right of the other parties? That is a banana republic theory. It is not acceptable.

Assuming a rerun is ordered, we would defeat the incumbent, like we did in the first election.

Secondly, the fact that INEC is trying to improve its own image and the electoral reform is enough to give it a try. Let's see what INEC would do in Ekiti. That will determine whether it is changing or would surrender to the intimation of the PDP and desperation of some of the Southwest governors.

Shortly before and after the emergence of Fashola as AC candidate, there were disagreements in your fold, making some of the aspirants seek the people's mandate on other platforms. Now that things have settled, have there been efforts at reconciliation?

Oh yes! They are free to come back home and we still welcome the back. Some have actually returned and been accepted back without being called names. It is their choice whether to return or remain in other parties.

Some that went to PDP during the AD are in the current Fashola cabinet.

That is how to show good leadership traits, forgiveness, accommodation and large-heartedness. These are things a leader must do to develop other leaders.

What is your relationship with some of the Southwest governors?

I don't want to comment about apples and oranges. We are concerned about electoral reform and the future of the Southwest and Nigeria.

My relationships with people are fine. They can abuse me any way they like, but I know what I am doing and I am seriously focused. I am not successful if they didn't abuse me. If they are accusing or abusing me, it means I am a force to reckon with and successful. It means I am more successful than they are. Thank God that I am not a laughing stock.

Among the people talking, how much is their state's annual budget? Some are not up to that of Alimosho Local Council in Lagos, and still they have been embezzling. I re-engineered the finances of Lagos State and brought physical, financial, economic and political prosperity to the state. They are midgets.

It is an insult to compare me with people who governed under military administration without their budgets being debated and yet they failed. They gave excuses of lack of bitumen and other things for their failure and mismanagement characterised their regime.

You think I pay attention to those ones? They are illiterates; we are not comparable. I can blow my trumpet myself. I took Lagos from a state of N600 million internally generated revenue to N10 billion. What are they doing in their states? They are rotten potatoes.

What about published allegations against you in the media?

It is the same way I see them. I don't give a damn; it is better for me to ignore them. They cannot prove anything; they cannot fit into my category, instead, they are calling me names and throwing anything at me in their desperation.

I governed Lagos State successfully for eight years and now they are copying most of the things that I did. They quoted some account with Heritage Bank, let them quote the balances of the transfer in and out of it reflecting that it was the period I served as governor and I will apologise to the public and be ready to go to jail.

I had been a successful person before I went into office.

I might consider litigations against them later on. Moreover, if you file a case against a governor now, you are wasting your time, because of the immunity governors enjoy.

As for the media, my lawyers are examining things. But I believe there is a masquerade behind the media publications.

There is no statute of limitation for more than six years. The Yoruba would say that the pounded yam of three years could still be very hot.

There was a report about your wife being interested in going to the senate in 2011. Is that true?

No, I don't think so. We have not discussed that. We just read these gossips, because people are just testing the water. I read it and just laughed. But she is qualified and competent and has the right to run, just like any other aspirant. But we have not discussed it.

What is your view on some office holders already campaigning or having their eyes set on a second term?

To me, that is a great distraction, at any level. Sometimes, it is not the fault of the office holder but those who are surrounding him and want to continue to eat from their table. It is the fat cats and rodents that want to continue eating the crumbles from their table.

When the leader is focused on the day-to-day administration, he would be able to deliver and be acceptable to the people. Half way into the first term, people are talking of second term; it is a distraction.

I have heard gossips that I don't want Fashola to go for a second term, which is not true. Who am I to break his foundation of success and his crown?

Having been a senator and governor, do you still aspire to political office?

Why not? I withdrew my form for the senate the last time and any day I like, I can aspire to be a senator, until I am about 90 or unable to move again. It is my right.

What of Aso Rock?

Why not, it is also my right. It may not be immediate, but I am constitutionally qualified to seek the office.

What would be the attraction?
To lead my country; to serve my country, after I must have rested. I believe in myself and my competence to lead the country, having led the people of Lagos for eight years. I would be lying to say I don't have political ambition.

But I am not blindly ambitious; I am not desperately ambitious, and I choose my friends.

You don't seem to believe in rotational presidency or zoning formula?

I don't believe in turn-by-turn; I want the best for Nigeria, anybody who fits the bill. I will never support rotation. That is one of the reasons I never joined PDP. Rotation is retrogressive; it is not for the right thinkers or the country. It is undemocratic to constrain a nation.

We have never been this divided, even in the days of our founding fathers.

Some argue that since the death of Chief Obafemi Awolowo, you appear to be the only one near to his calibre?

If I am doing anything that gives me any linkage to my hero, should I complain? I should be celebrating; I should work harder and be more focused.

But that appears to be putting you at loggerheads with some people?

Yes, you can never satisfy everybody. Even, when Jesus Christ was born, some people wanted to kill him.

The faster you run, the more envious some people become. The more focused you are, the more other people who are still failures will complain. The more independent and progressive you are, the more the custodians of dead ideas would pursue and crucify you. It is left for you to work hard on your potentials to unleash the prosperity, knowledge, ability and competence for humanity sake.

Afenifere remains divided. What are people like you doing to make the Yoruba speak with one voice?

We don't have one voice. I may have solo, some people may have treble, others may have bass. We have common purpose and common goal, but not one voice, and over time, that depreciated.

There is always reason to have conflicts. There was a time some people went to the Yoruba Council of Elders (YCE). Now, they are the best of Afenifere and were friends to Awolowo even before they were born. They are now the grandfathers of the Afenifere masquerade and describing them as the proper Afenifere.

So you expect this caricature of deception and lack of truthfulness in the modern day politics of some people. And if you find yourself in such a situation, just separate apples from oranges, so that you can manage yourself and be focused for a purposeful political activity.

But there is nothing that says you must think the same way every time and everyday. Some people move from conservatism to progressivism. Modern day hunger could fashion out a democracy of the stomach in a way that some people go from progressivism to conservatism. So you identify them quickly and isolate them.

It doesn't mean that Afenifere will not be one when we decide. We should separate issues from chaffs first. Maybe we will get united again someday, but I don't believe in the kind of deception, multi-coloured chameleonic kind of Afenifere.


Is that why you decided to be in the sideline?

I am only responding to Mama HID Awolowo's call, because that is the person who will deliver the letter and our message, when the time comes, to Awolowo. May she live longer!

Action Group (AG) and Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN), from where Afenifere came, were progressive. But some people now say National Congress of Nigerian Citizens (NCNC) was Afenifere, we leave it to history to judge.



http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/sunday_magazine/article01/indexn2_html?pdate=180409&ptitle=%27Our%20Focus%20Now%20Should%20Be%20Electoral%20Reform%27

Long but I thought it was interesting.