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Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Scholar8200(m): 8:07am On Oct 15, 2015
An2elect2:


Am sorry but some of your points are foreign...more like 'what you think' and not what they are.
I am still learning.In any case I will accept any contrary explanation as long as it agrees with the Scriptures and their contexts and peculiarities and/or realities of the Epoch concerned.


You said,
"As at the time of the OT, he was not the adversary (meaning of satan); he was the usurper wielding the dominion that was Adam's.

Firstly, am surprised to read that the 'father of lies from the beginning' was not an adversary of man until the new testament! I believe you were referring to the two dispensations: old and new?

The bible revealed that Satan in the form of serpent deceived man into disobedience in his first home. Do tell, is that not the highest form of opposition and evil to mankind from the devil?
The tempting of Adam was one of the events that happened in the beginning before the Fall. Romans 6:16 tells us you are the servant of he whose voice you obey. Before the fall of man, the devil could only go as far as tempting or inducing Adam/man. There was no basis for his being an adversary/accuser.


Secondly, which dominion is he wielding that belonged to Adam? Albeit Satan wanted to benefit from the fall, it was his greatest undoing because no dominion power was given except that he was cursed
GENESIS 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly
you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall
bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." ( NKJV)
He was cursed but the Romans 6:16 principle still applies here: you are the slave of the one you obey. It was a case of Adam selling his dominion right for a taste of the forbidden fruit. Afterwards, he fell from the Glory and lost it hence satan could tell Jesus in Luke 4:6 that all was delivered into his hands and Jesus did not
refute him (that was before the cross).


And again you said something i hear all the time but i never see it in the bible: God's perfect will and His permissive will that comes with dire consequences.
You have bible references and how do you know which is the perfect and which is permissive? Curiously waiting for your answer smiley
Indeed, the use of the adjectives perfect and permissive are not expressedly stated in scripture however they are used in describing situations where people insist on the opposite of that which God has revealed as His desire for them(knowing in His Omniscience that which is for their ultimate good), or requesting insistently for that which God would give in His time and insisting on receiving it at our time, or requesting insistently for the wrong reasons,that which God would provide.
A good example is in 1 Samuel 8 where Israel insisted for a king inspite of God's displeasure seeing it was not His time. But that which is called permissive will would not come sans enough warnings or a clear perception of Divine displeasure. Another example is Balaam- God had told him not to go with the emissaries of Balak because the people were blessed however, his covetousness made him ask God again and HE seeing the lust in his heart allowed him but an Angel with a drawn sword met him on the way...

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by An2elect2(f): 10:34pm On Oct 16, 2015
Thanks for the reply
Scholar8200:
I am still learning.In any case I will accept any contrary explanation as long as it agrees with the Scriptures and their contexts and peculiarities and/or realities of the Epoch concerned.
Same here
Scholar8200:

The tempting of Adam was one of the events that happened in the beginning before the Fall. Romans 6:16 tells us you are the servant of he whose voice you obey. Before the fall of man, the devil could only go as far as tempting or inducing Adam/man. There was no basis for his being an adversary/accuser.
Okay. I understand the point now except for using the term adversary. Just wondering because an adversary is someone who opposes another. And that was exactly what Satan was doing from the beginning to man. A tempter is not tempting his victim for just tempting sake. What was the basis for that, anger toward God and His creation. He had to come against the one that was handy; man
Scholar8200:

He was cursed but the Romans 6:16 principle still applies here: you are the slave of the one you obey. It jwas a case of Adam selling his dominion right for a taste of the forbidden fruit. Afterwards, he fell from the Glory and lost it hence satan could tell Jesus in Luke 4:6 that all was delivered into his hands and Jesus did not
refute him (that was before the cross).Okay, i understand this now...better. I will take what the scriptures and Christ have said about him over his claim in Luke 4:6.
[quote author=Scholar8200 post=38998586]
Indeed, the use of the adjectives perfect and permissive are not expressedly stated in scripture however they are used in describing situations where people insist on the opposite of that which God has revealed as His desire for them(knowing in His Omniscience that which is for their ultimate good), or requesting insistently for that which God would give in His time and insisting on receiving it at our time, or requesting insistently for the wrong reasons,that which God would provide.
A good example is in 1 Samuel 8 where Israel insisted for a king inspite of God's displeasure seeing it was not His time. But that which is called permissive will would not come sans enough warnings or a clear perception of Divine displeasure. Another example is Balaam- God had told him not to go with the emissaries of Balak because the people were blessed however, his covetousness made him ask God again and HE seeing the lust in his heart allowed him but an Angel with a drawn sword met him on the way...
I have big issue with this whole perfect and permissive will business. The impression given is that God has an already made plan but will have to give room in any case of man's misconduct or disobedience, thereby thwarting some of His plans.

When the Israelites asked for a King, and Samuel conveyed it to the Lord, He didn't say it was not time yet. He said, they'd rejected His reign over them(vs7) And yes He was displeased. Contrary to what we may think, their choice of a king to govern them was still in line with God's perfect will.

Same with Balaam's disobedience.

Going against God's holy/right standards/principles does not mean going against His one perfect will or creating another will. For God who hates sin
nevertheless uses sin to accomplish His will. God used the sinful actions of Joseph’s brothers to bring the entire family of Jacob (Israel) to Egypt, thus fulfilling His will (Genesis 15:12-16 ). He used the opposition of the scribes and Pharisees, the treachery of Judas, and the political cowardice of Herod and
Pilate to bring about the sacrificial death of our
Lord: “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the
Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. “And God
raised Him up again, putting an end to the
agony of death, since it was impossible for Him
to be held in its power” ( Acts 2:22-24 ).

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Anas09: 9:06am On Oct 17, 2015
Bible study 101.
What one can learn in this NL mostly is abscent in some Churches. Thanks Brother Scholar and Sister An2elect2.
Pls keep on the good work. Those who are confused and thirsty will receive direction and drink through you. Amen.
Godbless.

2 Likes

Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Scholar8200(m): 9:34am On Oct 17, 2015
Anas09:
Bible study 101.
What one can learn in this NL mostly is abscent in some Churches. Thanks Brother Scholar and Sister An2elect2.
Pls keep on the good work. Those who are confused and thirsty will receive direction and drink through you. Amen.
Godbless.
All Glory to God; God bless you too.
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Joagbaje(m): 9:51am On Oct 17, 2015
Men didn't have revelation of Satan at that time. Only few who had prophetic gift did like David ,moses zechariah etc. So that didn't mean he wasn't operating.

Zechariah3:1
3 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Joagbaje(m): 9:59am On Oct 17, 2015
MizMyColi:
[font=Georgia]
Moses never mentioned the name of Satan.
He wrote the book of job


Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [b]Satan[/b] came also among them.


David never mentioned the name of Satan.

David wrote most psalms

Psalms 109:6
6 Set thou a wicked man over him:
and let Satan stand at his right hand.

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Nobody: 12:00pm On Oct 17, 2015
Joagbaje

He wrote the book of job

What are your proofs?
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by PastorAIO: 1:06pm On Oct 17, 2015
Satan simply means the Adversary. Ha-satan.

In yoruba language we call it Elenini.

Just as in yoruba where there is a spiritual being called Elenini and at the same time we can refer to elenini in every day terms as people that stand in the way or block your path, so it is with Hebrew Satan.

If you want to translate bible to yoruba then Elenini is the true term for Satan, not Esu.

Anybody that blocks your progress is Elenini, therefore is Satan.

Most mentions of Satan in the OT is in the capacity of obstacles/enemies. David does not mention Satan as a spiritual being.

Psalm 109:6 that Joagbaje mentions can be translated
6Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.

This is how the ESV translates it. It's a bad belle prayer that calamities and obstacles should afflict the person the Psalmist has bad belle for.

God can send angels in the capacity to be Satans to a particular person in a particular context.

Numbers 22:22
and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as a Satan against him

Even in the NT when Peter attempts to obstruct Jesus from dying, though he felt he was acting in Jesus' best interests he had taken the role of a Satan. In other words, he was now blocking Jesus' path to do what he wanted to do.
Jesus called him a Satan.

First Kings, 11:14
God stirred up a Satan unto Solomon, Hadad the edomite.

Anybody can be satan in the OT. All you've got to do is get in the way of someone else and you're that person's satan.

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Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by McSterling(m): 1:17pm On Oct 17, 2015
Sarassin:


Interesting polemic against Satan by Scholar8200 it is a triumph of style over substance. It does not deal with the query of the OP which is, why is there a lack of the appearances of Satan in the OT as opposed to the NT where Satan is found virtually at every turn?


The answer lies in the different approaches taken by the Hebraic and Aramaic writers of the OT and that taken by the mostly Hellenized Greek speaking Jews who composed the NT. The common denominator are the Books of Enoch from where we learn that Satan is brethren to Michael, Uriel, Gabriel and Raphael, he rejected the dominion of God, declined to serve, formented rebellion and for this, was thrust into the great empyrean.

The NT concept of Satan is very heavily influenced by the nightmarish apocalyptic visions in the book of Daniel, as well as the equally harrowing Book of Revelations (which at one time was considered so bad as to be un-Christian) both books reflect Enochian visions of Satan or, if you prefer, the devil.


In Judaism however, Satan is a term used since its earliest biblical contexts to refer to a human opponent. Occasionally, the term has been used to suggest evil influence opposing human beings.

What is clear is that the Rabbis rejected Enochian literary works in their scriptures (the OT or Tanakh as well as the Talmud)and made every attempt to root them out rejecting any belief in rebel or fallen angels, demons and such-like, they chose to view evil as an abstract, a very sophisticated outlook. The Hellenized NT writers on the other hand did not share this view. Quite simply if Satan were not around the corner to lure one into temptation, and there were no binding of demons, what would be the need for salvation?

This is more like it.
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by McSterling(m): 1:28pm On Oct 17, 2015
PastorAIO:
Satan simply means the Adversary. Ha-satan.

In yoruba language we call it Elenini.

Just as in yoruba where there is a spiritual being called Elenini and at the same time we can refer to elenini in every day terms as people that stand in the way or block your path, so it is with Hebrew Satan.

If you want to translate bible to yoruba then Elenini is the true term for Satan, not Esu.

Anybody that blocks your progress is Elenini, therefore is Satan.

Most mentions of Satan in the OT is in the capacity of obstacles/enemies. David does not mention Satan as a spiritual being.

Psalm 109:6 that Joagbaje mentions can be translated
6Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.

This is how the ESV translates it. It's a bad belle prayer that calamities and obstacles should afflict the person the Psalmist has bad belle for.

God can send angels in the capacity to be Satans to a particular person in a particular context.

Numbers 22:22
and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as a Satan against him

Even in the NT when Peter attempts to obstruct Jesus from dying, though he felt he was acting in Jesus' best interests he had taken the role of a Satan. In other words, he was now blocking Jesus' path to do what he wanted to do.
Jesus called him a Satan.

First Kings, 11:14
God stirred up a Satan unto Solomon, Hadad the edomite.

Anybody can be satan in the OT. All you've got to do is get in the way of someone else and you're that person's satan.
Makes sense
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by Ganjafama(m): 1:39pm On Oct 17, 2015
MizMyColi:

The is why the New Testament must be our more evolved source for the truth about Satan and our proper posture of prayer.

Source: Facebook @RichardMurray
The new testament should be adopted for prayer and exposing satan while the old testament should be adopted for TITHING. You christians are a bunch of hypocrites
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by An2elect2(f): 6:01am On Oct 18, 2015
Anas09:
Bible study 101.
What one can learn in this NL mostly is abscent in some Churches. Thanks Brother Scholar and Sister An2elect2.
Pls keep on the good work. Those who are confused and thirsty will receive direction and drink through you. Amen.
Godbless.

Amen smiley
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by NIGERIALOLoCOM(m): 2:42am On Oct 20, 2015
Sarassin:


Interesting polemic against Satan by Scholar8200 it is a triumph of style over substance. It does not deal with the query of the OP which is, why is there a lack of the appearances of Satan in the OT as opposed to the NT where Satan is found virtually at every turn?


The answer lies in the different approaches taken by the Hebraic and Aramaic writers of the OT and that taken by the mostly Hellenized Greek speaking Jews who composed the NT. The common denominator are the Books of Enoch from where we learn that Satan is brethren to Michael, Uriel, Gabriel and Raphael, he rejected the dominion of God, declined to serve, formented rebellion and for this, was thrust into the great empyrean.

The NT concept of Satan is very heavily influenced by the nightmarish apocalyptic visions in the book of Daniel, as well as the equally harrowing Book of Revelations (which at one time was considered so bad as to be un-Christian) both books reflect Enochian visions of Satan or, if you prefer, the devil.


In Judaism however, Satan is a term used since its earliest biblical contexts to refer to a human opponent. Occasionally, the term has been used to suggest evil influence opposing human beings.

What is clear is that the Rabbis rejected Enochian literary works in their scriptures (the OT or Tanakh as well as the Talmud)and made every attempt to root them out rejecting any belief in rebel or fallen angels, demons and such-like, they chose to view evil as an abstract, a very sophisticated outlook. The Hellenized NT writers on the other hand did not share this view.[size=18pt] Quite simply if Satan were not around the corner to lure one into temptation, and there were no binding of demons, what would be the need for salvation?
[/size]

You are wonderful! Jah bless!!
Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by NIGERIALOLoCOM(m): 2:55am On Oct 20, 2015
An2elect2:


Secondly, which dominion is he wielding that belonged to Adam? Albeit Satan wanted to benefit from the fall, it was his greatest undoing because no dominion power was given except that he was cursed
God after creating the world handed dominion of Earth to Adam. Adam lost this dominion to Satan who Christ refers to in the gospels as the ruler of the world vis a vis the controller of the present system of things. Christ had to warn his disciples...."you're in the world but you're not of the world."

1 Like

Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by neocortex: 6:55pm On Oct 25, 2015
It is simply because the israelites have not come in contact with the persians
who practise zoroastrianism.
It is after cyrus the great sent the israelite back home
from the babylonic exile that the jewish intellectuals start to incorporate
the full status of satan into judaism which eventually matures in the new
testament.

1 Like

Re: Wait O: How Come The Word Satan Is Rarely Ever Mentioned In The Old Testament? by PastorAIO: 11:13am On Oct 26, 2015
neocortex:
It is simply because the israelites have not come in contact with the persians
who practise zoroastrianism.
It is after cyrus the great sent the israelite back home
from the babylonic exile that the jewish intellectuals start to incorporate
the full status of satan into judaism which eventually matures in the new
testament.

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