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|Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by ShaheedBinAliyu(m): 8:33pm On Dec 16, 2015|
It's strictly very against sunnah of our beloved prophet (saw).. it's reported he never used anything for azkar counting than his hands.. (his right hand) ... it's said that using an object for counting, especially the Tasbeehyu is an habit muslims adopted from Christians.. let's stay away from bidiah practices as it only leads to hell..
Salam alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakahtuhu
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Olarajee(m): 8:38pm On Dec 16, 2015|
wa alykum salam warahmatullah... the beauty of islam is that except you have concrete evidence to ur claims or you're a scholar to issue fatwa, which obviously u r not. U cant just give some opinion of urs and expect it to be followed. Nothing bid'ah about tasbeeh.
what do u use in effecting the counting of a tesbeeh? Not same hand? The beads are dey any different to the pebbles dat can be used in making counts? The tasbeeh just make it easier. Its like expecting me not to use a calculator to do my arithmetic cuz u expect me to use abacus.
Anyway, if u present evidence that are concrete, its very welcome. I'm not a scholar of fiqh too.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by ShaheedBinAliyu(m): 9:07pm On Dec 16, 2015|
what evidence do you want apart from it was never practiced by Prophet Muhammad (saw) .. and the Tasbeehyu is even an act of Christian.. so. it's up to you Bro.. accept it or not.. your choice bro
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 9:12pm On Dec 16, 2015|
How's tesbih bid'a?. Although this is old topic. It was addressed in various threads previously. If tesbih is bid'a in making adhkar, then using clock and internet to determine salat time is likewise bid'a.
Function of tasbih is basically mechanical device to aid us with adhkar(counts). Now, you may argue that there is nothing like making istigfar (etc) 1000x recorded in the sunnah. That may be true but there are some adhkar in the sunna like:
Can you do the above with your bare fingers without losing counts?. Can you do these without suffering daydream?. Once you daydream you forget your count, you may have to start over or simply cheat. But with tesbih, if you drop it by accident or daydream, you can almost picture exact same spot where you stopped. Same applies to 'counter'or stones. Their purpose is to aid the count. They arent bid'a at all.
The only recorded 'hadith' against tesbih does not have isnad to the prophet(SAW). It was opinion of one sahaba and narrated only by him. This hadith is now used by salafi movement as proof of bid'a.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by ShaheedBinAliyu(m): 9:27pm On Dec 16, 2015|
all i have is a very simple question... why didn't prophet (saw) use stones for counting so as not to lose count when he's doing 100 or over 100 istigfar or any of the sahabahs..?? and the origin of Tasbeehyu is from Christianity .. I rest my case.. May Allah guide us all
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 9:43pm On Dec 16, 2015|
ShaheedBinAliyu:Oh very well, then. We can go on and on. We now take aircraft to perform hajj. But in the time of the rosul(saw) he never rode on airplane. He never used clock to determine time of prayer and the list goes on. But you and I today simply look on our clock "it's 2:10 time for zuhr" etc. Did the prophet used that mechanical device to determine time of salat?. In Saudi, they now have time over a building. Click on my signature and watch them at every salat. Once it's 0' clock you hear adhan. Did the prophet do that?. Your understanding here appears to be literal and rigid. You can barely see any muslim observe the sun to determine prayer times. So this issue of tesbih being bid'a is non-issue.
Rememebr SALATUL TASBEEH recorded in SAHEEH!!!. There are number of times you have to says adhkar and the numbers are not even. Can you succefuly do it without losing your mind?. This is benefit of the beads. It has nothing to do with originating from Christianity. If you think it's it, then dont enter aircraft to haj because that was manufactured by non-muslims as well.
The ONLY way you can correctly say tesbih is bid'a is if it is taught to be part of the deen. It's not. It's simply a device
Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (al-Liqa’ al-Maftooh, 3/30) was asked whether using the masbahah for tasbeeh is bid’ah, and his reply was: “It is better not to do tasbeeh with the masbahah, but it is not bid’ah, because there is a basis for it, which is the fact that some of the Sahaabah did tasbeeh with pebbles.
After we complete salat almost everyone make quick finger counts of zikr. But when it comes to doing adhkar in quantity it is practically impossible to count with fingers.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by ShaheedBinAliyu(m): 10:16pm On Dec 16, 2015|
do you even understand what bidiah means? representing or replacing sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saw) with another thing is what we call bidiah ... replacing hands with Tasbeehyu is bidiah
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 10:54pm On Dec 16, 2015|
ShaheedBinAliyu:Brother, this isnt an issue at all. It's your understanding. No one replaces anything. So Saudi replaced timing of salat with artificial man-made clock to determine salat times....is that bid'a or not
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by olayinkajnr(m): 6:01am On Dec 17, 2015|
Empiree, you need not disturb yourself arguing... We've known their types, I have many of them as friends, they are the types that are quick to call other Muslims 'Kufar' just because others don't believe in their rigidness and biased thought. One came to my house, saw my TV and said 'subhanallah' this is Bidiah, that the Holy prophet didn't use TV. In turn, I went to his house and behold, I saw different form of pluralised 'Bidiah' like he claimed (Car, Bikes, Radio and expensive phones). They've really changed the real meaning of Sunnah. Even Nana Aisha, the wife of the Holy prophet made use of pebbles during the life of the prophet. Is that Bidiah??
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|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by ShaheedBinAliyu(m): 6:22am On Dec 17, 2015|
What is the Ruling on Using Prayer Beads?
Praise be to Allah
Some scholars say that it is permissible to use the masbahah (prayer beads), but they say that it is preferable to do tasbeeh (count praises) on one’s fingers; others say that it is bid’ah (reprehensible innovation).
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Fatawa (22/187): “Some of them might show off by putting their prayer-mats over their shoulders and carrying their masbahahs in their hands, making them symbols of religion and prayer. It is known from the mutawatir reports (reports in such large numbers that they couldn’t be forged) that neither the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) nor his Companions used these as symbols. They used to recite tasbeeh and count on their fingers, as the hadeeth says: “Count on your fingers, for they will be asked, and will be made to speak.” Some of them may count their tasbeeh with pebbles or date stones. Some people say that doing tasbeeh with the masbahah is makrooh (disliked), and some allow it, but no one says that tasbeeh with the masbahah is better than tasbeeh with the fingers.” Then he (may Allah have mercy on him) goes on to discuss the issue of showing off with the masbahah, saying that it is showing off with regard to something that is not prescribed by Islam, which is worse than showing off with regard to something that is prescribed.
Al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn Salih al-‘Uthaymeen (al-Liqa al-Maftooh , 3/30) was asked whether using the masbahah for tasbeeh is bid’ah, and his reply was: “It is better not to do tasbeeh with the masbahah, but it is not bid’ah, because there is a basis for it, which is the fact that some of the Sahabah (Companions) did tasbeeh with pebbles. But the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught us that tasbeeh with the fingers is better, as he said, ‘Count with the fingertips, for they will be made to speak.’ Doing tasbeeh with the masbahah is not haram (impermissible) or bid’ah, but it is better not to do it, because the one who does tasbeeh with the masbahah has shunned something better. Using the masbahah may also be contaminated with some element of showing off, because we see some people carrying masbahahs that contain a thousand beads, as if they are telling people, ‘Look at me, I do a thousand tasbeehs!’ Secondly, those who use the masbahah for tasbeeh are usually absent-minded and not focused, so you see them doing tasbeeh with the beads, but their gaze is wandering all over the place, which indicates that they are not really concentrating. It is better to do tasbeeh with one’s fingers, preferably using the right hand rather than the left, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) used to count his tasbeeh on his right hand. If a person counts his tasbeeh using both hands, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is better to use the right hand only.”
Al-Shaykh Muhammad Nasir al-Deen al-Albani said in Al-Silsilat al-Da’eefah (1/110), where he quotes the (weak) hadeeth “What a good reminder is the subhah [masbahah],”
“In my view, the meaning of this hadeeth is invalid for a number of reasons:
Firstly, the subhah [masbahah] is bid’ah and was not known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It happened after that, so how could he (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have encouraged his Sahabah to do something that was unknown to them? The evidence for what I have said is the report narrated by Ibn Waddah in Al-Bid’ wa’l-Nahy ‘anha from al-Salt ibn Bahram, who said: ‘Ibn Mas’ood passed by a woman who had a [masbahah] with which she was making tasbeeh, and he broke it and threw it aside, then he passed by a man who was making tasbeeh with pebbles, and he kicked him then said, “You think you are better than the Sahabah, but you are following unjustified bid’ah! You think you have more knowledge than the Companions of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)!”’ Its isnad (chain of transmission) is saheeh (authentic) to al-Salt, who is one of the trustworthy (thiqah) followers of the Tabi’een (Successors).
Secondly, it goes against the guidance of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). ‘Abd-Allah ibn ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) said, ‘I saw the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) counting the tasbeeh on his right hand.’”
He also said (1/117): “If there is only one bad thing about the masbahah, which is that it takes the place of the Sunnah of counting on the fingers, even though all are agreed that counting on the fingers is preferable, then that is bad enough. How rarely I see people counting their tasbeeh on their fingers!
Moreover, people have invented so many sophisticated ways of following this bid’ah, so you see the followers of one of the [Sufi] tareeqahs (orders) wearing the masbahah around their necks! Or some of them counting with the beads whilst talking or listening to you! Or another one – the like of whom I have not seen for some time – riding his bicycle through a street crowded with people, with the masbahah in one of his hands! They are showing the people that they are not distracted from the remembrance of Allah for even an instant, but in many cases this bid’ah is a cause of their neglecting what is obligatory (wajib). It has happened many times – to others as well as myself – that when I greet one of these people with salam, they answer only by waving and not by saying the words of the greeting. The bad results of this bid’ah are innumerable, and no one can say it better than the poet:
‘All goodness is in following that which went before (the salaf)
All badness is in the innovations of those who came later.’”
And Allah knows best.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 7:31am On Dec 30, 2015|
Asalam alayka o broda..there is ikhtilaf among scholar concernin d use of d subha as to whether its bida'a but there is "almost" ijma'a on it being makruh.ibn taymiyyah in al fatawa says its makruh shayk uthaymeen in al-liqa al maftooh says d same but albani in silsilatul al da'eefah says its bida'a
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 7:52am On Dec 30, 2015|
@EMPIREE i dont think u get d danger in replacing a sunnah with bida'a..even if u say d companions used d subha was there any record of it being approved by the prophet? moreover the msg of islam was sent to muhammad (saw)not the companions.sometimes myt act based on not hearing some statements of d prophet .in sunan tirmidhi the prophet told us to count the tips of our fingers for on d day of qiyamah they would be our witness.major companions like ibn abass and co prohibited d use of anything oda dan the use of the hands..may Allah bless the scholar who said "anything ryt during d time of the prophet cannot be wrong now and anything wrong during his time cannot be wrong now" .i'm nt sayin there aren't athar from some companions concernin d use of subha but if their words contradicts dat of the prophet's we take dat of d prophet but m sure they cnt purposely contradict d prophet except if they were absent when he explaining d issue or the was a fault in d isnad of the hadiths
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by abuhubaidah: 8:55am On Dec 30, 2015|
For he fact that the finger tips would be our witness so there's no point in using subha.we are all seeking jannah and it's another opportunity for us.if you agree we use then it's thesame as saying we can say anything with our mouth(good or bad).Allah said "إن السمع والبصر والفؤاد كل اولاءك كان عنه مسؤولا
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 5:40pm On Dec 30, 2015|
Lukmann:How does tasbeeh replaces fingers?. How is that bida'a?. You said
So if it's a matter of ikhtilaf(disagreement) amongst scholars, then it can not be definitive bida'a just becus Albani said so. So far, he's the only one that said it's bida'a. Now, does the tasbeeh move by itself?. Isnt the same fingers that count them?. And by 99.99% guarantee both fingers contract each other. I think you brothers are too literal.
Now, here is common sense to apply. There are ahadith about reciting a dhikr 100x.
1. Whoever reads Subhanallah 100 times in the morning and 100 times in the evening, will get the reward equal to that person who has performed 100 Hajj.
2. Whoever reads Alhamdulillah 100 times -will be rewarded as though he has participated in 100 Jihads.
Both virtues are recorded by Imam Tirmidhi (rahimahullah) in his sunan, hadith: 3741.
Imam Tirmidhi has graded the Hadith sound (hasan).
Note: The correct translation for second virtue is as follows:
‘Whoever reads Alhamdulillah 100 times in the morning and the evening – will be rewarded as if he has donated 100 horses in the path of Allah.
My question is, since only fingers is the sunnah according to you, can you recite mentioned dhikr by your fingers 100 times without suffering daydream or losing counts?. Be sincere.
even if u say d companions used d subha was there any record of it being approved by the prophet?Was there a record it was frowned upon by the prophet?. If no, this means "silent approval". I notice salafi shuyuk in nija are not object to using tasbeeh. It's very simple brothers.
major companions like ibn abass and co prohibited d use of anything oda dan the use of the hands.Using your logic just now, you said:
moreover the msg of islam was sent to muhammad (saw) not the companions.sometimes myt act based on not hearing some statements of d prophet.
You negate one thing but subtle on the other. So Ibn Abass and co arent prophet either. They arent in position to approve or disapprove the use of it. Only the prophet by your logic.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 7:07pm On Dec 30, 2015|
@EMPIREE first of all the hadIth of tirmidhi made it explicit by saying 'the tips' of the fingers .As to if i can use my fingers to count subhanallah 100x i cn boldly tell you dats wah i do.i count wiv my fingers..u cant even call these sunnah taqreeyah bcus during the time of the prophet as narrated by sa'd bin abi waqqas the prophet pointed out to a woman the preference of using the fingers and as u know in fiqh sunnah qawliyyah takes precedence ova faeliyyah n taqreeyah hence his statement abt using the tips of the fingers takes precedence .i would hv mentioned loads of daleel for u but i've forgotten where the sources are..in the words of the poet"all goodness is in following that which went before .all badness is in the innovations of those who came after. . .and Allah knows best
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 8:17pm On Dec 30, 2015|
Lukmann:Good for you if you are able to achieve that. But to call tasbeeh BIDAH is absurd. It is not. With over 90% of muslims using it. It is sold every at islamic stores. Are you saying they are all misguided? all these centuries?. If it's easy for you to count 100 dhikr with tips of your fingers, it may not for others.
Allah said in AYAT al-Baqarah 2:286
"Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability;"
If tasbeeh is bida'a, then clock-watch for salat time is bida'a, yes or no?. They perform similar function.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 9:17pm On Dec 30, 2015|
the tasbeeh n clock watch are different cases .for those who dnt know check to check d time of salat using wah d prophet prescribed u can use d clock based on the calculation of a more knowlegeable person..Allah knows best
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 9:27pm On Dec 30, 2015|
Lukmann:I'm talking about artificial clock that you hang on the wall and where is that reference?.
In my opinion, they perform similar function. Both are devices aim to achieve goals.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 9:48pm On Dec 30, 2015|
The reference are saheeh muslim (kitab us salah) and sunan at-tirmidhi.moreover,u cnt just pick d clock and set it to ur desired time..the prophet gave us direction
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Empiree: 10:04pm On Dec 30, 2015|
Lukmann:See, i kuku understood what you saying. I dont have issues with either clock or tasbeeh.
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by Lukmann(m): 10:16pm On Dec 30, 2015|
|Re: Using Tasbeehyu For Azkar Counting Is Bidiah by AbooTasleemah1(m): 7:56am On Jan 08, 2016|
You can't just tag anything bid'ah without concrete evidence and expect people to believe. Even shaykh al Albanee was always careful in most of his refutations regarding some actions. When he explained to his students the fault in those actions from kitaab wa sunnah, the students would ask him, "oh shaykh, should we not call it bid'ah?" Shaykh al Albanee would say, "no one has called it bid'ah before me" if this shaykh could be careful in such affairs, why would we come out to tag most actions bid'ah! Though I do not support this particular action of using rosary but who am I in Islam? Am nobody! So brother, pls be careful regarding matters like these, The hadeeth which shaykh Utheymeen brought as evidence is clear cut enough that the prophet didn't called it bid'ah but he (salla Llaahu alayhi was sallam) said" LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT IS BETTER" which means not counting with your fingers doesn't make you a mubtadee akhee.
We should tell people what is right and What makes it right And what is wrong and why its wrong.
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