There are so many philosophycal/metaphysical discourse on this particular topic, but I just woke up this morning and after hearing something on the radio, I was like wait o, God met the world in a chaotic form and He TRIED to bring some order into it by creating and directing some things, but he FAILED and He himself realised it! According to the Bible, He TRIED, again, to correct for His imperfection by sending His beloved son/servant/messenger to make some corrections(which many christians celebrate today!), but we all know the result today, the imperfection persists!
Now, the question is: is God perfect?

...even "perfection" couldn't do justice to what God is..He is beyond that..and many many times beyond

BETATRON:
...even "perfection" couldn't do justice to what God is..He is beyond that..and many many times beyond

Please discourse!

Pls don't ever ask that kind of question again,he is more than perfect dear. Merry xams.

sinkhole:
Please discourse!

ok..the things you refer to as evil in this world are but the result that man is given FREE WILL,,not that He was CREATED and compulted to do evil in any way

The chaos in the world are the product of man's free will,in that He is given has the choice to either sail the path of good and success or drown in the path of evil and decadence

And again man has been given the ability to discern with the inner sight that which is good from bad and to him has been sent countless prophets so that he can transverse the path of good and merriment by virtue of his own free will

Need I give you an analogy--the student has the freedom to either read and pass his exam or not to read and fail his teacher advices him to read and leaves him choose between reading and not reading -but the student although knowing that reading will make him pass the exam fails to read and fails the exam--who is to be blamed??

BETATRON:
ok..the things you refer to as evil in this world are but the result that man is given FREE WILL,,not that He was CREATED and compulted to do evil in any way

The chaos in the world are the product of man's free will,in that He is given has the choice to either sail the path of good and success or drown in the path of evil and decadence

And again man has been given the ability to discern with the inner sight that which is good from bad and to him has been sent countless prophets so that he can transverse the path of good and merriment by virtue of his own free will

Need I give you an analogy--the student has the freedom to either read and pass his exam or not to read and fail his teacher advices him to read and leaves him choose between reading and not reading -but the student although knowing that reading will make him pass the exam fails to read and fails the exam--who is to be blamed??

Freewill? Who knew? I guess someone should go and tell all those children with Down's syndrome that they brought it upon themselves.

BETATRON:
ok..the things you refer to as evil in this world are but the result that man is given FREE WILL,,not that He was CREATED and compulted to do evil in any way

FREE WILL!!! That is another serious point of discoursion!

BETATRON:


The chaos in the world are the product of man's free will,in that He is given has the choice to either sail the path of good and success or drown in the path of evil and decadence

The purpose of God's intervention in the chaotic world is to bring order and harmony, and if God is all knowing and perfect why then did He choose to give man "free will" according to you, that will bring imperfection in His work. He, being a perfect, all knowing Being, should have known that what he was to give us is not good for us. Afterall, Jesus said, if your child asked for a bread, will you give him/her a stone instead? Its like God, knowingly, gave us knife to cut our heads with! That is not love.

And again man has been given the
ability to discern with the inner
sight that which is good from bad
and to him has been sent
countless prophets so that he can
transverse the path of good and
merriment by virtue of his own free
will

I have been told many times that God knows me before I was born, and he knows how I will die, because He is an all knowing God! Then where exactly is that my "free will".
If I want to make a computer which will be building cars and I am designing this particular one and all calculations show that if is built, it will be making cars that will be killing people! Do you think I will go ahead and complete that computer without making necessary corrections?

sinkhole:
The purpose of God's intervention in the chaotic world is to bring order and harmony, and if God is all knowing and perfect why then did He choose to give man "free will" according to you, that will bring imperfection in His work. He, being a perfect, all knowing Being, should have known that what he was to give us is not good for us. Afterall, Jesus said, if your child asked for a bread, will you give him/her a stone instead? Its like God, knowingly, gave us knife to cut our heads with! That is not love.

humans were not created to attain perfection by sitting down idly..he is expected to strive for and desire perfection..

--for those who strive in our path we will indeed guide them in our path--

Note-he is also given the conscience which speaks constantly to his heart when he does bad.only persistence in this act make bad deeds ok for him

That free will is abused doesn't make it bad for man--that education is abused doesn't make education bad for man

humans were not created to attain
perfection by sitting down idly..he is
expected to strive for and desire
perfection..

He was created to be perfect in the garden of Eden, everything was there, no work no stress! And that is the aim of all christians and even muslims, to go back to the garden of Eden where everything is perfect and no more struggle and strive!

sinkhole:
I have been told many times that God knows me before I was born, and he knows how I will die, because He is an all knowing God! Then where exactly is that my "free will".
If I want to make a computer which will be building cars and I am designing this particular one and all calculations show that if is built, it will be making cars that will be killing people! Do you think I will go ahead and complete that computer without making necessary corrections?

here is the point your lecturer knows that you will fail an exam due to your laziness and it turns out that you fail the exam..this doesn't mean that you failed the exam because the teacher KNEW that you will fail it but you only failed it as a result of your laziness

--but the teacher knowing that you will fail the exam shouldn't didn't prevent you from taking the exam,,cause it will mean denying you of your "right" and denying you the opportunity to proof your self

BETATRON:
here is the point your lecturer knows that you will fail an exam due to your laziness and it turns out that you fail the exam..this doesn't mean that you failed the exam because the teacher KNEW that you will fail it but you only failed it as a result of your laziness

--but the teacher knowing that you will fail the exam shouldn't didn't prevent you from taking the exam,,cause it will mean denying you of your "right" and denying you the opportunity to proof your self

My teacher did not make me to study his course, I chose to study the course myself. In contrast, I did not exist by myself, God made me!
My teacher do not really know, from the begining, whether I will be good in his course or not, it will be after some time of studying me that he will realised my capabilities. In contrast, God is all knowing and perfect so much that He knows me from my birth till my death.
If my teacher has the ability to make me know and pass his course, he surely will do so and that is what we actually chraged all teachers to do, but because of their imperfections, they sometime fail! In contrast, God is perfect and omnipotent, if I am doing wrong why cant He, out if love, put me back in the right path! After all, you will agree that He directs the world in whichever direction He wants it to go, and if He is perfect then why does He choose the world to in an imperfect direction?

sinkhole:
He was created to be perfect in the garden of Eden, everything was there, no work no stress! And that is the aim of all christians and even muslims, to go back to the garden of Eden where everything is perfect and no more struggle and strive!

so perfect in the garden and was tempted by the devil?

Secondly it is stated the heaven and earth were created before the creation of man...why was earth created knowing that God does nothing without purpose?

so perfect in the garden

That is showing the imperfection of God, because he made a feeble man that can not even withstand a simple temptation!
Again, if God is perfect and omnipotent, who made the devil? Devil must have been a result of very wrong experiment by God!

sinkhole:
My teacher did not make me to study his course, I chose to study the course myself. In contrast, I did not exist by myself, God made me!
My teacher do not really know, from the begining, whether I will be good in his course or not, it will be after some time of studying me that he will realised my capabilities. In contrast, God is all knowing and perfect so much that He knows me from my birth till my death.
If my teacher has the ability to make me know and pass his course, he surely will do so and that is what we actually chraged all teachers to do, but because of their imperfections, they sometime fail! In contrast, God is perfect and omnipotent, if I am doing wrong why cant He, out if love, put me back in the right path! After all, you will agree that He directs the world in whichever direction He wants it to go, and if He is perfect then why does He choose the world to in an imperfect direction?

it is but an analogy brother,,

The teacher cannot force the student to read and study to pass his exam,,He only advices him to do so.that's the purpose of guidance and counselling

God gave man free will and then sent to him prophets who are the doctors of the soul to help cure his soul and lead him toward perfection

Not compelling Him to Do Good.

BETATRON:
so perfect in the garden and was tempted by the devil?

Secondly it is stated the heaven and earth were created before the creation of man...why was earth created knowing that God does nothing without purpose?

The doubt is not whether He created or not, but the doubt is whether He created them to perfection! It is obvious that what He created are not perfect and therefore He Himself must not be perfect!

sinkhole:
That is showing the imperfection of God, because he made a feeble man that can not even withstand a simple temptation!
Again, if God is perfect and omnipotent, who made the devil? Devil must have been a result of very wrong experiment by God!

he could,,a lot of men have been able over the course of history to fight off this temptations

The ability of man to over come temptation is the result of true kNOWLEDGE and awareness,,

BETATRON:
it is but an analogy brother,,

The teacher cannot force the student to read and study to pass his exam,,He only advices him to do so.that's the purpose of guidance and counselling

God gave man free will and then sent to him prophets who are the doctors of the soul to help cure his soul and lead him toward perfection

Not compelling Him to Do Good.

I quite understand its an analogy, but I am saying that the analogy does not stand!
God made us and He gave us live and He can take the live if He so wishes, meaning we have no control over our lives!

sinkhole:
The doubt is not whether He created or not, but the doubt is whether He created them to perfection! It is obvious that what He created are not perfect and therefore He Himself must not be perfect!

as I have stated perfection is not gotten by sitting idly but by desiring it and constant struggle

Man has the ability to ride a cae but needs to learn how to

BETATRON:
he could,,a lot of men have been able over the course of history to fight off this temptations

The ability of man to over come temptation is the result of true kNOWLEDGE and awareness,,

Then why couldnt Adam fought off the temptation? That would have been the ideal thing.

sinkhole:
I quite understand its an analogy, but I am saying that the analogy does not stand!
God made us and He gave us live and He can take the live if He so wishes, meaning we have no control over our lives!

lol..life and death are predestined by how we live our lives is not predestined but based on free will

If we say God predestined man and remotes him towards doing evil and he has no choice on His path why is there retribution for these deeds which are not the result of our own choice

Why do courts and military punish people knowing fully well that their acts have been predestined?

BETATRON:
as I have stated perfection is not gotten by sitting idly but by desiring it and constant struggle

Man has the ability to ride a cae but needs to learn how to

You are taking us out of the ability and attributes of God to that of Man!

sinkhole:
You are taking us out of the ability and attributes of God to that of Man!

nope..just giving analogies of how man can attain his perfection

God created man in his own image meaning he is given the ability to attain perfection to the best of his ability by making use of his free will not sitting idly and expecting to attain perfection

BETATRON:
lol..life and death are predestined by how we live our lives is not predestined but based on free will

If we say God predestined man and remotes him towards doing evil and he has no choice on His path why is there retribution for these deeds which are not the result of our own choice

Why do courts and military punish people knowing fully well that their acts have been predestined?

That is about being my conclussion, you may not like it but it is mine: God is not perfect! He reordered the world (as there was this chaotic world before God) and He "perfectly" understood the laws governing the mechanics and dynamics of this world. He knows what law will apply with the corresponding boundary conditions, He knows where the laws applies and fails! Some of those laws are what are being revealed to us in the laws of sciences (both physical and social).

God is not perfect, He does not know anything about us before we were born and He really does not know how we will end, but He does know that if we were born in a certain condition then we will proceed in a certain way and if certain conditions are attained, He knows perfectly our live projection. Our free will does change our movement in life and whenever we are about taking a decission that will have negative impact on our lives, God does indeed warn us, and it is completely our own decision to accept His advice or not.
Somebody given birth to in Somalia is most likely going to die from an AK47 fired bullet, but with some parameter manipulations, that same person born in Somalia could die in a plane crash over Japan or even peacefully in an hospital in New York. Your begining and end are not predestined but certainly follow some rules!

Thanks BETATRON, its nice discoursing with you. This AEDC just brought light now and I got to do some work!

sinkhole:
Thanks BETATRON, its nice discoursing with you. This AEDC just brought light now and I got to do some work!

ok..enjoy