Acts 4:32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Acts 4:35 and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.
Acts 4:36 Thus Joseph who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas (which means, Son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus,
Acts 4:37 sold a field which belonged to him, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

The verses above is the picture of an early church (I believe a true church). Why the church go contrary today and how can church retrace her step.
shalom!

DONT MIND THESE THIEVES WHO CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS ARE MANDATED TO PAY TITHES TO HELP THEIR PASTORS WHEN THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THE EARLY CHRISTIANS LIVED A COMMUNAL LIFE ,WHERE EVERYONE BENEFITED FROM EACHOTHER'S WEALTH,I DOUBT IF WE CAN ACHIEVE THAT AGAIN IN COMTEMPORARY CHRISTIANITY

The love of tithes is the beginning of all evil in the church. If this illegal collection was used to take care of the needy in the church we would understand. Maybe we should ask the church leadership why they choose not to practise true christianity whilst deceiving the flock.

DONT MIND THESE THIEVES WHO CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS ARE MANDATED TO PAY TITHES TO HELP THEIR PASTORS WHEN THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THE EARLY CHRISTIANS LIVED A COMMUNAL LIFE ,WHERE EVERYONE BENEFITED FROM EACHOTHER'S WEALTH,I DOUBT IF WE CAN ACHIEVE THAT AGAIN IN COMTEMPORARY CHRISTIANITY

in your own opinion, Why do you think that cannot be acheivable in this present Christiandom?

The love of tithes is the beginning of all evil in the church. If this illegal collection was used to take care of the needy in the church we would understand. Maybe we should ask the church leadership why they choose not to practise true christianity whilst deceiving the flock.

Are you suggesting that tithes is not biblical or the wrong application? Try to maintain the topic. Thanks and God bless.

@ all we as Christians should pursuit that which is right in the sight of God and not neccessary in the sight of Man.

[b]"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." (Mark 12:30)

In any relationship, the most important element is time. If we want to love someone, then we have to know them first, and the best way to do this is to simply take the time to build a friendship. Quiet personal time with Jesus throughout the day is needful. On several occasions throughout the Gospels, we read that Jesus "went up into a mountain to pray" (Luke 9:28 & Mark 6:46 are two examples). In His relationship with the Father, Christ set a pattern for us to follow (John 15:10).

David said in Psalm 55:77 "Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice." I found in my personal experience, that when I can spend time in the morning with Jesus in prayer and in His Word, and then a few minutes at noon, and again in the evening, my personal experience with Christ and my love for Him grows exceedingly!! Although everyday doesn't always work out like that because of unexpected events, it is my desire and goal to set aside regular time with Jesus. "When You said, Seek My face, my heart said to You, Your face, Lord, I will seek." (Psalm 27: Ask the Lord to place this same longing and desire in your heart. "I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land." (Psalm 143:6)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5:6) Even though you may have lost this thirst and passion for God, the Lord can rekindle that flame within you, so talk to Him about this in prayer: "I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." (Luke 11:9-10)

But how do we leave our "first love" of Christ and how can we prevent this from happening?

"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:4-5)

In these verses, we find Jesus addressing the Christians in Ephesus. Apparently they had been very devoted in their service for Christ (verses 2-3), but their love for the Lord had grown cold. The fire in their lampstand was faltering, although they were still "going through the motions" of Christianity. Like 2 Timothy 3:5, they had a "form of godliness", but no power.

On the outside, the Ephesians may have looked and acted like the other churches; many of the members were probably preachers and evangelists; their doctrines were pure; but Jesus could see through the outer shell. "He who searches the minds and hearts" could see past the exterior facade (Revelation 2:23). The Ephesians could fool their fellow Christians, but they couldn't fool God: Christ knew that they had left their first love. The Lord doesn't want a lukewarm type of affection from His followers; He desires a fervent love that continues to grow as time goes on (Revelation 3:15-16).

Let's not make the same mistake as the church in Ephesus: Increasing our work for the Lord doesn't necessarily increase our love for Him or improve our relationship with Jesus. In fact, overworking and taking on too many church offices may result in just the opposite. We can overextend ourselves and get so busy in Christian service that we forget why we're doing it in the first place!

If you want to grow delicious apples then you have to prune away some of the branches. This means that you'll end up with less apples, but those apples will be healthier and more desirable because they received more nourishment and sunlight. In our Christian life, we may need to prune away certain activities so that we can focus more intently on our personal walk with the Savior. I'm not suggesting that ministering for Christ is bad, but it is important to refine your work so that you have plenty of time to spend with Jesus on a personal level. This is one of the ways that we can apply John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit."

When our service is motivated by a sincere love for God and a desire to do what is pleasing in His sight, then it will bless the lives of others and strengthen our own connection with Jesus, as we become fully dependent upon the Lord for success and ability.

Notice the advice that Jesus offered to the church in Ephesus: "Remember therefore from where you have fallen!" (Revelation 2:5) It appears that the Ephesians had forgotten how God had led them in the past. One of our greatest dangers is to forget just how much we need Jesus! It's in our human nature to trust in ourselves and do things our own way, which will lead to a prideful separation from God (James 4:6 & Proverbs 16:18). We must always keep in mind that we are nothing apart from Jesus (John 15:5). As Paul said, "It is not that we think we can do anything of lasting value by ourselves. Our only power and success come from God." (2 Corinthians 3:5 NLT)

"Remember therefore from where you have fallen!" Go back in time to when you first accepted Jesus as your Savior and friend. Reflect upon how He has transformed you and offer a prayer of thanksgiving for all of the blessings that have flowed into your life because of God's love working for you (Perhaps you should make a list and keep it in your Bible). Make this a regular habit and tell others about how good the Lord has been to you! When we focus on how loving God is toward us, it makes it easy to return that love, so let the mercy of God and the reality of the cross be your meditation.



Compare your life now with the way it was before you became a Christian. Then compare your life now with what it was like one year ago. Have you grown closer to the Lord or have you slipped further away from Him? Have you overcome certain sins or have the sins overcome you? Don't be discouraged, but instead use this as an incentive to climb higher in your relationship with Christ. Ask the Lord to help you grow in His love so that you can look back a year from now and be able to praise God for the positive changes that have taken place. But if your past has been full of backsliding and sin, then leave it in the past, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:13 & 14)

Just like in marriage, reviving your first love is as easy as going back to the way you used to do things when you first fell in love, like spending quality time together. In our Christian life, we need to continually go "back to the basics" in order to keep our love for Christ growing. This means that that spending time in prayer and in God's Word is vitally essential. If we are going to have a life changing love for Christ, then we really need to know Him more personally and keep that level of a closeness constant. Our God is a very personal God and He wants a very personal relationship with us. So we must take the time to walk with Him and talk with Him throughout our whole day. When we start applying God's word to our daily lives and claiming His promises, He becomes more alive to us and we become more excited about Him! Once again, quiet time alone with Jesus is an important key in loving Him. If you find that this isn't as easy as it used to be, then ask God for help and consistency (Psalm 51:10). He understands our weaknesses and He is able to help us in overcoming them (2 Corinthians 12:9). Our relationship and love for Christ can be restored! (Psalm 51:12)

The Lord continues His admonition to the Ephesians: "repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5) One of the signs that your love for Christ is growing cold is that sin doesn't bother you as much as it used to; things that were once offensive to you are now "no big deal". Sins that you used to confess to God are now "not that bad". If this is the case, then you need to pray that God will send the Spirit to point out your sin and give you the ability to repent. Jesus said that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to "convict the world of sin". (John 16: Christ also said that He came to call "sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32) If we're open to His leading, Jesus will show us the things in our lives that need to change. A real love for the Lord involves a willingness to surrender or forsake anything that is displeasing to Him. If we're intentionally putting our selves first and doing the things that bring us pleasure instead of doing what is pleasing to God, then we'll begin to love ourselves more than we love Christ.

In a way, it's true that either Christ will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from Christ. God loves you no matter how much you sin, but sinful actions and thoughts will make you less inclined to seek God through prayer and His Word. The deeper you go into sin, the harder it will be to turn back to God because of the enticing nature of evil, but don't despair! Make a YOU-turn in your spiritual life right now. That means that YOU need to turn to God and allow His power to give you victory. "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27) There is no spiritual trial or sin that God can't help you with or cleanse away. "Commit your way to the Lord, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass. He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday." (Psalm 37:5)
[/b]

http://www.wordoftruthradio.com/questions/43.html

What we have now is greed

,  Continued from my previous post

Yes, Our Churches can be repositioned. They need to go back to their first love - Christ! They need to stop condoning sinful practices and stand for godliness instead!

For the church to be repositioned, it must start from within. Nowadays there is a lot of hypocrisy going on in the church. People attend church like attending a Clinic for healing of some kind of sickness or ailment. A place where u can get ideas on how to get rich. A RAT RACE.

The church should go back to what the early christians were doing. helping each other, praying in unity for the gospel to reach the unsaved, and living in righteousness. In essence living the life of a christian. The bible says where 2 or 3 gather in my name, there shall I be. "In my name" meaning putting christ first before anything else. The church becoming a place where the 7 Spirits of the Lord are manifested to the fullest.
Such is the will of God.

well, the parable of the wheat and the tares comes to mind.

both have to remain together until harvest time.

@tpiah

The wisdom of God eh!

Church is a place where you are fed with the word of God , and not food sharing . Ofcourse if a brother is destitute, he should be helped but not by spoon feeding him. He should work!. I will rather establish a man in a petty trade than handing down food . We may eat together in love feast. But not for certain individual living on hands down from others. Christ didn't die to make you live in poverty. A man should be encouraged to work.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-11
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all,

@joagbaje
Going by your above post, so why do most pastors today prefer not to work but live off the sweat of others by distorting scripture? Why can't they follow the example of Paul and the otherapostles in that passage and get a decent Job? Yet they want to eat the best food, wear the finest clothes, drive the flashiest cars and cruise around in private jets thru commercialization of the gospel Jesus clearly instructed must be preached free.

@Kunleoshob

KunleOshob:

@joagbaje
Going by your above post, so why do most pastors today prefer not to work but live off the sweat of others by distorting scripture? Why can't they follow the example of Paul and the otherapostles in that passage and get a decent Job? Yet they want to eat the best food, wear the finest clothes, drive the flashiest cars and cruise around in private jets thru commercialization of the gospel Jesus clearly instructed must be preached free.

I don't know what forms your biases against men of God. The ministry is a sacred place. A fleshly man can not last or survive it. It is a call. You blaspheme against Gods spirit by the calumnious remarks against ministers od God. I know you feel youre doing God a service . What you're doing is a sin.

Paul was not a perfect man.Jesus took support, Paul also took support except in Corinth because of the attitude of people there. Paul descision was wrong, and paul's action and mistakes is not a standard for the church.

It is God thAt calls a man. Paul is not a standard for assessment of a minister. It not every pastor that is called into full time ministry. Many pastors work. Except the ones that God would not allow to work by the virtue of their responsibility in ministry. A minister ought to be supported . God has ordained it to be so. And any one that gives to a minister gets blessed for it. So at the end of the day, everybody wins. Those who gave didn't give at a loss.Will you call Jesus a thiief ?

I will like to know your comment on these scriptures?

Luke 8:3 ( GWT)
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.


1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Galatians 6:6-7
6 Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.
7 Don't be misled; remember that you can't ignore God and get away with it: a man will always reap just the kind of crop he sows!


Take note of the highlighted part. So Who loses?

Honestly, this Joagbaje has very serious problems!

Now Paul is wrong because he chose to work (including menial jobs) rather than fleece the flock like the modern day charlatans including Oyaks and the fool in a suit (oyedepo) pictured smiling in his private jet that his mumu followers paid for!

Don't be surprised if Joagbaje soon says that God was wrong in the Ten commandments to say Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not covet etc ---- since those go against the avarice of thieves fleecing the flock that Joagbaje supports

@ topic

For the church to be repositioned (speaking of Nigeria specifically), the first thing would be to destroy the prosperity "gospel". However, this is not likely to happen because of the extent of greed and materialistic desire prevalent in our urban societies/communities especially.

In the past the church was seen as a place to go in order to take one's mind off the things of the world and to contemplate higher values. Today, the "church" is where to go to look for things of the world and to place one's mind deep in the gutter/sewer/soakaway ----------- especially if the "church" is "pastored" by the likes of Joagbaje.

Enigma,
Pau's personal decisions and choices are not rules. Why would you major on the minor. God commanded ministers to be supported, Paul personally choose to support himself in certain place because of the carnality of the people there, that doesn't make it a law for other ministers. If you study your bible well Paul recognise the fact that he was to be supported. But he just chose other wise.

He also chose not to be married, so does it make it wrong for other ministers to be married?


1 Corinthians 9:3-5
3 This is my[ real ground of] defense( my vindication of myself) to those who would put me on trial and cross- examine me. 4 Have we not the right to our food and drink[ at the expense of the churches]? 5 Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas( Peter)?

So why will you guys begin to judge other minister by a personal decision of just one person. A decision that is contrary to the general body of truth.

@joagbaje
I don't know which twisted version of the bible you quoted luke 8:34 from, but I can assure you no decent version of the bible used the term "financial support" what the bible said is they "ministered to their needs" which is not necessarily financial. That aside no were in my writings have I ever said it is wrong to support churches or pastors financially, what I have always complained about is the abuse of this priviledge by preachers and the greed motivating them to further twist scripture to fleece the flock. Some of these fraudulent teachings. Like the mordern day version of tithing has been institutionalized in the church by theses fraudulent characters and accepted by the ignorant mumu sheep as doctrine. I think you should go and read the whole of Matthew chapter 23 to know what Jesus and God think about religious leaders like you and fellow charlatans that parade themselves as men of god.

@Joagbaja

Your translation of the Bible is ambiguous, Could you use the general translation and do away with that Rhapsody of reality Bible waterdone by Chris?

@Post

Repositioning Churches is achievable else where in the world, but certainly not in Nigeria and America. Let see churches the way these Peddlers sees it then we will have a Clare cut of the possibility of repositioning. Any one that made mention of that openly will be a great enemy with these guys that called themselves GOC. This suggestion is powerfull enough to through Nigeria into a state of pandemonium. These guys have grown to be Mafia godfathers having supposed believers as their boys that can carry out anything as they wish. Brethren, lets hand them over to God for quick judgment that will help more than bringing churches together like the days of old.

Kunleoshob, and The seed of ganja

KunleOshob:

@joagbaje
I don't know which twisted version of the bible you quoted luke 8:34 from, but I can assure you no decent version of the bible used the term "financial support" what the bible said is they "ministered to their needs" which is not necessarily financial.

The translation is GWT (God Word Translation). Jesus took money. Money is general medium of exchange. They may have given him other things too. But definitely they gave money and he collected. Don't try to over holylise Jesus.
Where did judas get money to steal?. 

That aside no were in my writings have I ever said it is wrong to support churches or pastors financially, what I have always complained about is the abuse of this priviledge by preachers and the greed motivating them to further twist scripture to fleece the flock.[ /quote]

It's good to fleece the flock, so that they can keep producing . Is the flock complaining? if you cut your hair won't it grow back? 

Some of these fraudulent teachings. Like the mordern day version of tithing has been institutionalized in the church by theses fraudulent characters and accepted by the ignorant mumu sheep as doctrine. I think you should go and read the whole of Matthew chapter 23 to know what Jesus and God think about religious leaders like you and fellow charlatans that parade themselves as men of god.

Tithing is A way of financial security for tithers. We don't lose by tithing.

^^^

Joagbaje:

It's good to fleece the flock, so that they can keep producing . Is the flock complaining? if you cut your hair won't it grow back?

WHOSE FLOCK ARE THEY? Can sheep complain during fleecing?

Flocks of sheep belong to the owner of the flock. They could be in the care of a shepherd but the shepherd has NO right to fleece flock that are not his own except for the owner's benefit - not his own. Thus, anyone who fleeces flock that do not belong to him is a thief, a criminal, a reprobate and a wolf.

And that is the problem in our society - people forget they do not own the flock and so they fight over members and you hear things like "don't steal my flock, go get your own". And that is why they fleece them too.

Sad, very sad when someone has the confidence to boastfully state he believes in his right to fleece God's flock!

Paul was not a perfect man.Jesus took support, Paul also took support except in Corinth because of the attitude of people there

Pastor agbaje has repeated this fallacy I addressed in the tithe thread.St Paul clearly stated in the scriptures that he did not receive tithes from anyone either in corinth or anywhere.He said it aboout three or four times in the bible i the book of acts,1&2 thes,i cor.

Let me reproduce some of these quotations again

2 Thessalonians 3:7-10 (New American Standard Bible)

7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

8nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;

9not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.


1 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (New American Standard Bible)


9For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.

10You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;

11just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging andimploring each one of you as a father would his own children,

12so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory


10For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order:if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.]

He also spoke to the ephesians in Acts 20:33-35

Acts 20:33-35 (New American Standard Bible)

33"(A)I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes.

34"You yourselves know that (B)these hands ministered to my own needs and to the (C)men who were with me.
35"In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive

St Paul fended for himself and today remains the greatest winner of soul in christian history.All this talks of church cannot survive without tithes is all bullshit.


I must add that there is nothing wrong in a man[b] freely [/b] contributing to the upkeep of his pastors,but it should be of his own freewil and not something coerce by twisting any bible passage.

Take a look at the link below

http://www.globalopps.org/papers/whydid.htm

Joagbaje:

Church is a place where you are fed with the word of God , and not food sharing . Ofcourse if a brother is destitute, he should be helped but not by spoon feeding him. He should work!. I will rather establish a man in a petty trade than handing down food . We may eat together in love feast. But not for certain individual living on hands down from others. Christ didn't die to make you live in poverty. A man should be encouraged to  work.

The above is basically correct - the dignity of labour and self-reliance. But still there may be problems. Before it appears that the early church referred to in that citation from Acts was out to encourage laziness, we might ask:

How would you, Joagbaje, address a situation whereby a man does not work because:
(1) He can't find a job.
(2) He is incapable of working - think of the disabled, elderly widows, orphans, and the others that Dorcas used to look after.

Joagbaje says:

Joagbaje:

It's good to fleece the flock,

^One meaning of fleecing the flock is: To defraud of money or property; swindle

Thanks you for the post.


__________________
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aletheia:

Joagbaje says:^One meaning of fleecing the flock is: To defraud of money or property; swindle

To fleece the flock is to shear wool from it's body, the sheep gets it's fulfilment ,because it's fulfilling it's purpose. and he gets replenished. When a Christian give to God, he is fulfilling his purpose, he gets replenished even more .

Joagbaje:

To fleece the flock is to shear wool from it's body,[size=13pt] the sheep gets it's fulfilment ,because it's fulfilling it's purpose[/size].  and he gets replenished. When a Christian give to God, he is fulfilling his purpose, he gets replenished even more .

it is absolutely disgusting the way your thieves go to justify your perfidy. Who told you the sheep is fulfilled by losing his wool? Did the sheep tell you that it was born to provide you with wool? Have you seen sheep being sheared before? How many of them willingly run to you asking to be sheared?

Pls this post is an insult to all sheep worldwide, apologize with immediate alacrity.

MyJoe:

The above is basically correct - the dignity of labour and self-reliance. But still there may be problems. Before it appears that the early church referred to in that citation from Acts was out to encourage laziness, we might ask:

How would you, Joagbaje, address a situation whereby a man does not work because:
(1) He can't find a job.
(2) He is incapable of working - think of the disabled, elderly widows, orphans, and the others that Dorcas used to look after.

A man that can't find a job should create one. There is no shame even if he has to push wheel barrow, sell okrika, pure water, newspaper, learn a trade or skill etc. But he can do better than that. His Pastor will be in the position to counsel him.

A man that is inapable doesn't exist, except if he is a vegetable in the hospital. Such should be helped of course.

A young widow should get a job, An elderly widow should be cared for by relatives but in the absence of that, the church will take care of them but they should be at least 60 years old and be submitted to a church serving God there.
Orphans are our responsibility. I have quite some that I sponsor with shelter and academics.

Our Churches can create jobs for the jobless folks! There is money and brains in our churches! They can give charitably to those who are temporarily short and help them in getting work instead of continually taking advantage of the poor!

I remember this church where the pastor would curse the flock that didn't give money. Not only was he (still is) fleecing them in the physical; they were ( and are still) being fleeced in the spiritual. The flock is being held in bondage and most of them know it but can't leave. Unforunately for most of the flock, they have made the pastor their God and follow his instructions even where it clearly contradicts the Bible. I pray that this flock be released from captivity soon as some have been held for as long as 16 years!

God will reward us all!

Enigma:

Honestly, this Joagbaje has very serious problems!

Now Paul is wrong because he chose to work (including menial jobs) rather than fleece the flock like the modern day charlatans including Oyaks and the fool in a suit (oyedepo) pictured smiling in his private jet that his mumu followers paid for!

Don't be surprised if Joagbaje soon says that God was wrong in the Ten commandments to say Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not covet etc ---- since those go against the avarice of thieves fleecing the flock that Joagbaje supports

@ topic

For the church to be repositioned (speaking of Nigeria specifically), the first thing would be to destroy the prosperity "gospel". However, this is not likely to happen because of the extent of greed and materialistic desire prevalent in our urban societies/communities especially.

In the past the church was seen as a place to go in order to take one's mind off the things of the world and to contemplate higher values. Today, the "church" is where to go to look for things of the world and to place one's mind deep in the gutter/sewer/soakaway ----------- especially if the "church" is "pastored" by the likes of Joagbaje.

Lets see who has the serious problem?!

Your posts are so full of subtle dumbness, now i understand your biase against the church is nothing more than sentiments and JEALOUSY for the men of God. Lest you forget or prolly dont know, lets see what Paul wrote to the corithians

1 Cor 9:13-15
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?

14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15 But I have not used any of [size=13pt]these rights[/size]. . ." NIV

Doesnt this tell your biase mindset that "Its a right for Men of God to get their food from the temple". . .whosoever does not use this right is still free to do otherwise.

A major error i have seen here is that these so called anti's do not even quote scriptures but speak and prolly write from a bittered mind. Pathetic!

Maybe Jesus' remark will put your kind under the shroud of infamy.

Matt 26:6-11

6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper,

7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.

8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked.

9 "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." (this is what these so-called self-righteous folks of this section keep saying, tending to look righteous b4 everyone)

10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.

11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. NIV

@ Poster,

To your topic: Can Our Churches Be Repositioned?

I'll say Yes

The problem with the church is that we have so many critics who feel they know more than the biblos itself.

Inside the fold, you'll find those who subscribe to gnostic teachings and thus will criticize every church leader simply for not seeing things the gnostic way.

A notrinitarian who prolly just learnt some reasonings from some well crafted book written by unbelieving intellects will not take off some time to check whether what he ljust read and learnt corelates with the vast scriptures or not. Rather such a folk will go to his church and starts finding reasons to criticize his pastor for not buying into the nontrinitarian idea.

and the list of criticism goes on and on. Just some bunch of knowledge-puffed individual creating unrest in the supposed body of Christ.

Joagbaje:

A man that can't find a job should create one. There is no shame even if he has to push wheel barrow, sell okrika, pure water, newspaper, learn a trade or skill etc. But he can do better than that. His Pastor will be in the position to counsel him.

A man that is inapable doesn't exist, except if he is a vegetable in the hospital. Such should be helped of course.

A young widow should get a job, An elderly widow should be cared for by relatives but in the absence of that, the church will take care of them but they should be at least 60 years old and be submitted to a church serving God there.
Orphans are our responsibility. I have quite some that I sponsor with shelter and academics.

Broadly, I agree with you. Your rigid rules will not work all the time, but that's another matter.

Following from what you wrote above, do you not see why the early church used the church as a place for "food sharing" along with using it as a "place where you are fed with the word of God"? Do you not see why it is inappropriate to care for the pastor only while neglecting those who suffer?

In the olden days people lived communally and widows, orphans, the infirm, the poor, and strangers passing through, were cared for from the common purse. Giving up 10% of your earnings makes a lot of sense under these circumstances. But the case is different today. I think that is what people are mostly on about when they criticise certain things done today.