Dunce! what is pulling things towards the ground? why is gravity unseen? are unseen things physical?? are radio waves physical? Go study about the history of physics. And watch some YouTube videos on "energy is everything" to cure your ignorance.

JackBizzle:





Gravity is not physical?

So it is spiritual demon that is pulling you towards the ground when you jump up?

ValentineMary:
This is really funny. Why bother what Winner01 says? personally I have stopped bothering myself about what religious people think. That's their problem.

No one bothers with what anyone thinks but they are bothered by what they say.

UyiIredia:


No one bothers with what anyone thinks but they are bothered by what they say.

Nice one

Amberon11:
Dunce! what is pulling things towards the ground? why is gravity unseen? are unseen things physical?? are radio waves physical? Go study about the history of physics. And watch some YouTube videos on "energy is everything" to cure your ignorance.

Try to calm down and make a point. I cant make sense of what you are saying.

johnydon22:


The recent obsession with atheists and atheism on Nairaland is an act of desperation and a chronic need to feel relevant, so is mostly unnecessary to engage as you'd learn nothing from it - Best Ignored.

Though i am loving the recent atheistphobia and propaganda - it shows the presence of Nairaland atheist is seriously butt hurting some, and i'd be disappointed if it's not.

So seat back and enjoy the show, it's just a momentarily last gasp.

Evil prospers when good men do nothing.

Amberon11:
Dunce! what is pulling things towards the ground? why is gravity unseen? are unseen things physical?? are radio waves physical? Go study about the history of physics. And watch some YouTube videos on "energy is everything" to cure your ignorance.

yes, radio waves are physical. And watching YouTube videos without a strong backing in science is a bad idea.

Amberon11:
Dunce! what is pulling things towards the ground? why is gravity unseen?

Nothing is pulling anything, its rather an effect of the object's mass on space..

Let me give you a practical example you can do at home to get the idea : If you have a rubber sheet or something similar, spread is finely suspended in air, then place a heavy probably metal orb on top of it, you'll notice the orb will dent the rubber sheet.

Place a lighter orb within the horizone of the dent, you will see the lighter dent will slide towards the center of the dent made by the bigger heavy orb.

That is gravity.

are unseen things physical??

Physical doesn't necessarily mean seen, it goes with anything that manifests in the material realm or having to do with Physics [which sums up the entire universe, seen or unseen]

are radio waves physical?

Yes it is, it is propagted by Photons, radio waves are just another spectral wavelength of light .

And is very very very very Physical.

Go study about the history of physics. And watch some YouTube videos on "energy is everything" to cure your ignorance.

Very irrelevent to what's being discussed - next time do not be so quick to lash out insults on another when you don't know any better than them.

Make your points without having to insult cus truly none of us comes fully prepared.

The quantum state is the spiritual state?!!! PATHETIC!!!

MY INTERPRETATION: "I am toooooo desperate to make my god real!!! I will literally say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to make my god real!!!

Niflheim:
The quantum state is the spiritual state?!!! PATHETIC!!!

MY INTERPRETATION: "I am toooooo desperate to make my god real!!! I will literally say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to make my god real!!!

A wise man once said that any advancement in science or technology is magic to the ignorant.

shadeyinka:
Usually for an Atheist "waves" the "spiritual" doesnt exist. An Atheist want to force an answer limited to the Physical...which is not possible.

Are you attempting to equate "quantum" to "spiritual" and hence religion?

shadeyinka:
Correct. Are you a Physicist? Colour doesnt exist at quantum scales. But an Atheist who doesn't understand the "quantum state" (spiritual state) will want to force an answer in terms of Black, White, Rd, Or, Yel, Grn, Blue,...An Atheist say "show me a demon, a spirit, god...and I will believe"

Yeah my area of academic specialization is very physics oriented. Hmm... one doesn't need to know jack about science to be an atheist. The term atheist is typically used to mean "lack of belief in god/gods", that's it. Also, your analogies using quantum mechanics are not particularly convincing. There is evidence for quantum mechanics but there is no evidence for the existence of gods.

shadeyinka:
Perfect answer! De Broglie Hypothesis..relations show that the wavelength is inversely proportional to the momentum of a particle. But an Atheist will ask this kind of question. "What is the wavelength of a luxurious Bus?". Forgetting that De Broglie's law work's only at atomic to sub-atomic scales. You agree with me that it is impossible to answer correctly the question without a change in frame of reference from Classical to Quantum Physics.

Actually asking about the wavelength of a luxurious bus is not a bad question. The bus actually has a De Broglie wavelength except that it is approximately zero (probably something like 10^-20 meters) and hence is approximated to exhibit classical behavior.

shadeyinka:
...but you know what, an Atheist want to remain in the "Classical rhelm" (physical rhelm) so that any answer beyond the physical is discarded. Just as there is the Quantum state in the Physical sciences, there is a Spiritual state in existence.

I still don't follow. There is no evidence for a spiritial realm, but there is evidence for quantum states.

shadeyinka:
I am happy that you seem to speak the language of Physics. So, let's slow down, forget the big grammer we learnt in school and pick logics. Let the questions below be answered.

1. Where was the law of Entropy before and when when the Big Bang occured.?

2. Where was the law of Conservation of Energy before the Big Bang occurred?

3. Explain the cause (i.e. why does it occur for atomic and sub-atomic materials?) of "the waves-particle duality of Matter"?

I hope tour answers will not violate the fundermental laws of Physics.

The correct answers prove that..

I still don't see the point of your questions.

johnydon22:


WTF do you guys mean that gravity is not physical.. I want to know that means?

Gravity is a physical value for goodness sake.. Jeez!!!

If you were careful enough, you would have noticed the question mark in parentheses beside the phrase. Indicating I that know that because something is not seen does not mean it is not physical.

I also know that gravity is a physical phenomenon. So take easy on the criticism

Antiparticle:


Are you attempting to equate "quantum" to "spiritual" and hence religion?

Oh yes. In quantum Physics, nothing is impossible. There exist always a probabilityvof an event occurring EVEN when it defys the normal classical sense. The Spiritual is the quantum side of existence. Nothing is impossible. Quantum physics is not always verifiable in the classical state, so also the spiritual is not always verifiable in the physical state.

Antiparticle:

Yeah my area of academic specialization is very physics oriented. Hmm... one doesn't need to know jack about science to be an atheist. The term atheist is typically used to mean "lack of belief in god/gods", that's it. Also, your analogies using quantum mechanics are not particularly convincing. There is evidence for quantum mechanics but there is no evidence for the existence of gods.

Is it possible to demonstrate quantum physics to a lay man? My argument was that one cannot remain in the classical state and believe quantum phenomena. You cannot remain the the physical state band comprehend the spiritual.

Antiparticle:

Actually asking about the wavelength of a luxurious bus is not a bad question. The bus actually has a De Broglie wavelength except that it is approximately zero (probably something like 10^-20 meters) and hence is approximated to exhibit classical behavior.

No class teacher will ask a student to calculate the deBroglies wavelength for a bus not because it cannot be done but because the answer is meaningless. The purpose answer for the deBroglies frequency is "impossible". Is it even possible that an electromagnetic wave will exist at that wavelength.

Antiparticle:

I still don't follow. There is no evidence for a spiritial realm, but there is evidence for quantum states.

If you perform a LOGICS experiment, you will discover that before the physical, another rhelm seem to have existed. We theists will callbit the spiritual rhelm.

Antiparticle:

I still don't see the point of your questions.

winner01:
Meme number 3.

God inspired men to write the Bible.
Atheists are fond of saying books dont prove anything.
Well, we all get our info. or most from books.

Just that the Bible is a special book.

There is a common error that people make that once something has been written down then it becomes authoritative. They will say, 'It's true, I read it in the newspaper'!!.

Of course such a statement serves to expose the naivety of the person speaking.

Books in themselves don't prove anything. I agree with the atheists on that one.

We don't get all or most of our info from books. Well, I can speak for myself only. I get more information by being perceptive of my environment. I would happily dismiss 99 percent of what I've ever read in books as rubbish. Obviously you take a different tack.

But the part of what you wrote that really interests me is the part where you say that the Bible is a special book. I think that is a very dangerous and baseless position. So I ask, Why do you think the bible is a special book? What is in the bible that is so special?

Weah96:


They never said that the survey was scientific, so how did they lie.

The organization focuses on eliminating radical Islam in France without motivating others to join in the process. Radical Islamists have the strongest faith out of all religions and death isn't even a distraction for their faith.

So instead of speaking the truth like Trump does, they instead chose the Obama and Hillary Clinton route. Muslims get mad when you associate their religion with terrorism. Mad Muslims= more dead Frenchmen.

bolder part got me rolling

shadeyinka:
Oh yes. In quantum Physics, nothing is impossible. There exist always a probabilityvof an event occurring EVEN when it defys the normal classical sense. The Spiritual is the quantum side of existence. Nothing is impossible. Quantum physics is not always verifiable in the classical state, so also the spiritual is not always verifiable in the physical state.

I think I see the analogy that you are drawing. The problem though is that both quantum and classical mechanics exist in the physical realm (and have be verified repeatedly), yet all claims of the spiritual world have never been verified.

shadeyinka:
Is it possible to demonstrate quantum physics to a lay man? My argument was that one cannot remain in the classical state and believe quantum phenomena. You cannot remain the the physical state band comprehend the spiritual.

With patience and simple illustrations, it is possible to demonstrate quantum mechanics to a lay man. Admittedly, most people (almost every physicist actually) find quantum mechanics incredible, but the incontrovertible evidence quenches doubts. Claims about the spirit world have zero evidence (and are arbitrary), in contrast.

shadeyinka:

No class teacher will ask a student to calculate the deBroglies wavelength for a bus not because it cannot be done but because the answer is meaningless. The purpose answer for the deBroglies frequency is "impossible". Is it even possible that an electromagnetic wave will exist at that wavelength.

Actually in one of my physics classes, we calculated the de Broglie wavelength of a moving baseball. The purpose of the exercise was to show that classical mechanics is a "macroscopic" approximation of quantum mechanics.

shadeyinka:
If you perform a LOGICS experiment, you will discover that before the physical, another rhelm seem to have existed. We theists will callbit the spiritual rhelm.

This claim is pseudoscience.

Antiparticle:

I think I see the analogy that you are drawing. The problem though is that both quantum and classical mechanics exist in the physical realm (and have be verified repeatedly), yet all claims of the spiritual world have never been verified.

Quoting You: The problem though is that both physical and spiritual mechanics exist in the physical realm (and have be verified repeatedly),...deleted
Although as Atheists, no explanation satisfies you..."except If a Bus is driven through a Wall and the wall did not break down".

Don't we teach tunnelling in quantum Physics? LOL!

Antiparticle:

With patience and simple illustrations, it is possible to demonstrate quantum mechanics to a lay man. Admittedly, most people (almost every physicist actually) find quantum mechanics incredible, but the incontrovertible evidence quenches doubts. Claims about the spirit world have zero evidence (and are arbitrary), in contrast.

No amount of illustration and patience will convince a lay man concerning the quantum state (try it) except he is first willing to accept the possibility of non classical events which may contradict his earthly experiences. I think Atheist have concluded on the fact that there is ZERO probability of the spiritual existing. This conclusion make them unteachable. Just consider a lay man who believes that the quantum state has
ZERO probability of existing, how can he comprehend quantum phenomenons even if well explained.

Claims about the spirit world have zero evidence (and are arbitrary), in contrast.

This is usually an Atheists conclusion. You don't have to believe in the existence of the spiritual rhelm, but to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY ..PROBABILITY that it could exist. Then, evidences COULD make sense when logically presented. Other than that no progress can be made.

How did you get to comprehend quantum physics? We trusted the Text books and our Teachers, then we acknowledged the possibility of events beyond the classical happening, then we applied logics...then quantum things began to have meaning. Imagin that as students, anything beyond "Isaac Newton" is discarded...

PARANORMAL experiences and activities actually show that the PROBABILITY of another rhelm of existence present with us is NOT ZERO!

Antiparticle:

Actually in one of my physics classes, we calculated the de Broglie wavelength of a moving baseball. The purpose of the exercise was to show that classical mechanics is a "macroscopic" approximation of quantum mechanics.

OK, I give it to you...but, the answer still is meaningless! Just suitable for illustrative purposes for technically the deBroglies wavelength of a Bus and a Ball are not different. At this point, we have crossed the boundaries of quantum physics

Antiparticle:

This claim is pseudoscience.

Quantum mechanics came about because the Classical Mechanics could not explain some physical phenomenon. Scientists were wise enough to recognise that the Classical Physics was valid BUT there may be need to think out of the Box to solve problems the classical physics couldn't solve. I guess it takes some humility to come to terms that the well respected and Tested Classical laws are not ABSOLUTE. So also the rhelm of the Physical versus the rhelm of the Spiritual.

If Science cannot answer the questions below, then maybe there is another rhelm of knowledge in existence with rules vastly different from the physical.

1. Where was the law of Entropy before and when when the Big Bang occured.?

2. Where was the law of Conservation of Energy before the Big Bang occurred?

3. Explain the cause (i.e. why does it occur for atomic and sub-atomic materials?) of "the waves-particle duality of Matter"?

NDEs, MAGIC(not all are tricks), Miracles, Demonic possessions and Deliverances, Ancient Technologies cast DOUBT on the absoluteness of Classical Sciences.

Check out some of these things : I will probably send some links. With a skeptic mind judge and truely ask the question relating to PROBABILITY!

Niflheim:
The quantum state is the spiritual state?!!! PATHETIC!!!

MY INTERPRETATION: "I am toooooo desperate to make my god real!!! I will literally say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to make my god real!!!

How is it pathetic? Its just a comparism. Antiparticle understands perfectly what I am saying even though he has not agreed with me.

shadeyinka:
Quoting You: The problem though is that both physical and spiritual mechanics exist in the physical realm (and have be verified repeatedly),...deleted
Although as Atheists, no explanation satisfies you..."except If a Bus is driven through a Wall and the wall did not break down".

Don't we teach tunnelling in quantum Physics? LOL!

Tunneling is a quantum phenomenon and makes no sense in the classical world. This has been proven mathematically and experimentally. How is this related to "spiritual mechanics"? Quantum mechanics has been independently and consistently verified thousands of times, to an extremely high level of accuracy! The notion that the spirit world exists, to state it kindly, is just an arbitrary hypothesis that is born out of a human desire to have explanations for things in nature that s/he does not understand. But the hypothesis of the spiritual world is one that has not been shown to have any empirical basis in reality.

shadeyinka:
No amount of illustration and patience will convince a lay man concerning the quantum state (try it) except he is first willing to accept the possibility of non classical events which may contradict his earthly experiences. I think Atheist have concluded on the fact that there is ZERO probability of the spiritual existing. This conclusion make them unteachable. Just consider a lay man who believes that the quantum state has
ZERO probability of existing, how can he comprehend quantum phenomenons even if well explained.

I was once a lay man, but I eventually became convinced about the factuality of quantum mechanics because data! Before that I never even considered the possibility of non-classical events operating under different rules, but data swiftly changed my mind. I have not met any physicist who wasn't blown away by the weirdness of quantum mechanics; yet they have to accept it because of the preponderance of data and experiments that prove it to be correct. The notion of a spirit world existing is not and has never been repeatedly and reliably proven, ever. No claims about the spirit world have ever passed the test of empirical scrutiny. BUT most atheists would change their minds if there was ever proof of the existence of one. If you indeed have a test to prove the existence of the spirit world and miracles, then you stand to win a ton of money & prizes (click link)! I will celebrate with you if you can win any of these prizes!

There's this unfounded idea that atheists are just stubborn people who would refuse to believe even with the evidence right in front of them. This is far from the truth. Most atheists are "agnostic atheists" in that they don't claim they have all the knowledge, they just disbelieve all the unsubstantiated or falsified claims by theists. I don't have to be convinced that the sun exists, I don't have to be convinced that the internet exists, heck I don't even have to be convinced that quantum mechanics is true. Why? Because evidence, data, logic, etc. Claims about the spirit world are held to this same standard.

shadeyinka:
This is usually an Atheists conclusion. You don't have to believe in the existence of the spiritual rhelm, but to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY ..PROBABILITY that it could exist. Then, evidences COULD make sense when logically presented. Other than that no progress can be made.

In the broad & abstract philosophical sense, anything is possible. But in the pragmatic sense, not everything is plausible. For example, in an unnamed planet in an unnamed hypothetical universe it could be possible that if I jump I will keep going up and up and end up in space BUT on planet earth there is a 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999...% chance that this would never happen. As a matter of fact, all objective human observations have shown that this is not a plausible scenario. For this reason, I would not pragmatically entertain the idea that if I jump I will levitate from earth into space (unless extraordinary evidence is provided, given the extraordinary nature of the claim).

For the same sort of reasons, I have no reason to believe in the existence of the supernatural. I used to acknowledge and in fact believe in the existence of the supernatural, but I have since thrown it out of the window because I realized that all the claims were arbitrary and with ZERO evidence. The notion that any idea should be seen as a possibility (even if it is not plausible whatsoever) is itself very problematic. I could use your line of thinking to propose to you that our galaxy was formed by an invisible spider residing at its center black hole; based on your rhetoric this is possible, yet you probably won't entertain this view because it sounds silly. I don't believe in your claims of the spiritual for the same reasons that you don't believe in my hypothetical invisible spider. Extraordinary evidence is needed.

shadeyinka:
How did you get to comprehend quantum physics? We trusted the Text books and our Teachers, then we acknowledged the possibility of events beyond the classical happening, then we applied logics...then quantum things began to have meaning. Imagin that as students, anything beyond "Isaac Newton" is discarded...

I comprehend and accept physics because I trust well-performed science & experiments (but I am still skeptical and subject any claims in physics or otherwise to scrutiny!). Quantum mechanics as a field of study would not survive if experiments proved it incorrect. I acknowledged & accepted the possibility of quantum mechanics when the evidence was provided!

shadeyinka:
PARANORMAL experiences and activities actually show that the PROBABILITY of another rhelm of existence present with us is NOT ZERO!

Please prove any paranormal experience and you get one or more of the prizes in the link above.

shadeyinka:
OK, I give it to you...but, the answer still is meaningless! Just suitable for illustrative purposes for technically the deBroglies wavelength of a Bus and a Ball are not different. At this point, we have crossed the boundaries of quantum physics

True.

shadeyinka:
Quantum mechanics came about because the Classical Mechanics could not explain some physical phenomenon. Scientists were wise enough to recognise that the Classical Physics was valid BUT there may be need to think out of the Box to solve problems the classical physics couldn't solve. I guess it takes some humility to come to terms that the well respected and Tested Classical laws are not ABSOLUTE. So also the rhelm of the Physical versus the rhelm of the Spiritual.

If Science cannot answer the questions below, then maybe there is another rhelm of knowledge in existence with rules vastly different from the physical.

This is classic "God of the gaps" apologetics. "God of the gaps" is a receding pocket of scientific ignorance that has been getting smaller and smaller since the scientific revolution started five hundred years ago (modified Neil Degrasse Tyson quote).

shadeyinka:
NDEs, MAGIC(not all are tricks), Miracles, Demonic possessions and Deliverances, Ancient Technologies cast DOUBT on the absoluteness of Classical Sciences.

Check out some of these things : I will probably send some links. With a skeptic mind judge and truely ask the question relating to PROBABILITY!

There has never been any evidence that any of what you mentioned above is any more than tricks or exploitation of psychological vulnerabilities and biases of people. If you can provide any incontrovertible and convincing evidence, you will be a rich man (see link to prizes above). The best miracle proof you can give though is the regrowing of an amputated arm; I have asked almost every theist for this unfalsifiable miracle but no dice!

Antiparticle:

Tunneling is a quantum phenomenon and makes no sense in the classical world. This has been proven mathematically and experimentally. How is this related to "spiritual mechanics"? Quantum mechanics has been independently and consistently verified thousands of times, to an extremely high level of accuracy! The notion that the spirit world exists, to state it kindly, is just an arbitrary hypothesis that is born out of a human desire to have explanations for things in nature that s/he does not understand. But the hypothesis of the spiritual world is one that has not been shown to have any empirical basis in reality.

You see that both of us have scriptures we follow:
You, the report of Scientists (who claimed they did experiments in the quantum states)

Me, the report of Spiritual men (who claimed they received information from God)

However, you chose NOT to believe the report of the " spiritual men" because they are not scientific in their presentation. Forgetting that, the spiritual is NOT scientific.

Note that the "so called evidences and data" did not originate from you..and except you are an experimental nuclear or plasma physicist, the number of experiments you personally did in quantum physics is limited indeed. You trusted that the mass and charge of electrons are exactly what is presented in book of constants and you use them for calculations without question...isn't the kilogram a choice of scale for mass?

My point is that you discard every attestations of spiritual men simply because they are not scientific. If you turn the table around, suppose I discarded every scientific report because they are not spiritual would you not see me as unreasonable?

Antiparticle:


I was once a lay man, but I eventually became convinced about the factuality of quantum mechanics because data! Before that I never even considered the possibility of non-classical events operating under different rules, but data swiftly changed my mind. I have not met any physicist who wasn't blown away by the weirdness of quantum mechanics; yet they have to accept it because of the preponderance of data and experiments that prove it to be correct. The notion of a spirit world existing is not and has never been repeatedly and reliably proven, ever. No claims about the spirit world have ever passed the test of empirical scrutiny. BUT most atheists would change their minds if there was ever proof of the existence of one. If you indeed have a test to prove the existence of the spirit world and miracles, then you stand to win a ton of money & prizes (click link)! I will celebrate with you if you can win any of these prizes!

Its like saying, Drive your Bus through this Fence without breaking the walls, then I will believe in quantum Physics.

You mean that the spiritual has not been scientifically proven?
Suppose my argument had been that the scientific has not been spiritually proven, you will see me as obstinate, wouldn't you?

The spiritual and the scientific/physical are more or less synonymous to the relationship between the quantum and classical states. They operate on different rules.

Antiparticle:

There's this unfounded idea that atheists are just stubborn people who would refuse to believe even with the evidence right in front of them. This is far from the truth. Most atheists are "agnostic atheists" in that they don't claim they have all the knowledge, they just disbelieve all the unsubstantiated or falsified claims by theists. I don't have to be convinced that the sun exists, I don't have to be convinced that the internet exists, heck I don't even have to be convinced that quantum mechanics is true. Why? Because evidence, data, logic, etc. Claims about the spirit world are held to this same standard.
In the broad & abstract philosophical sense, anything is possible. But in the pragmatic sense, not everything is plausible. For example, in an unnamed planet in an unnamed hypothetical universe it could be possible that if I jump I will keep going up and up and end up in space BUT on planet earth there is a 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999...% chance that this would never happen. As a matter of fact, all objective human observations have shown that this is not a plausible scenario. For this reason, I would not pragmatically entertain the idea that if I jump I will levitate from earth into space (unless extraordinary evidence is provided, given the extraordinary nature of the claim).

Suppose you woke up one day and began to SEE, HEAR, and SPEAK to beings who can only be seen and heard by you, how can it be scientifically proven that YOU speak the truth? Now, to you what you see is reality however, science will conclude that you are hallucinating. Suppose you are not hallucinating, will science not have been sincerely WRONG?

I used the illustration of driving a bus through a wall without breaking the wall as an example of an Atheists expectation of proof Theists must produce to prove the existence of God. If one need a proof of the quantum state he should not rigidly think in the classical state.

Antiparticle:

For the same sort of reasons, I have no reason to believe in the existence of the supernatural. I used to acknowledge and in fact believe in the existence of the supernatural, but I have since thrown it out of the window because I realized that all the claims were arbitrary and with ZERO evidence. The notion that any idea should be seen as a possibility (even if it is not plausible whatsoever) is itself very problematic. I could use your line of thinking to propose to you that our galaxy was formed by an invisible spider residing at its center black hole; based on your rhetoric this is possible, yet you probably won't entertain this view because it sounds silly. I don't believe in your claims of the spiritual for the same reasons that you don't believe in my hypothetical invisible spider. Extraordinary evidence is needed.

You keep saying zero evidence because the only explanation that would have satisfied you is the physical. Like if a massive lightning wrote in the open sky: I AM GOD!!!!....and 20 16feet tall Angels with wings like swans fly around the writing. If science can explain EVERYTHING, your stance would have been understandable. Unfortunately the best you can hope is that probably in future, science will have satisfactory answers to them.

Example:
How come some people have an explicit experience of reality when they have an NDE? (Science cannot theorize that the experiences are dreams because people seldom dream the nature of their kind of experiences).

Antiparticle:

I comprehend and accept physics because I trust well-performed science & experiments (but I am still skeptical and subject any claims in physics or otherwise to scrutiny!). Quantum mechanics as a field of study would not survive if experiments proved it incorrect. I acknowledged & accepted the possibility of quantum mechanics when the evidence was provided!

Still the same thing, you can only accept scientific/physical evidences. However, the truth remains that not everything in life can be measured.


Examples:
Consciousness, Conscience, Faith, Love, Emotion, ...How can YOU scientifically verify any of the above. However, even though these cannot be scientifically verified or quantified, does it make them figments of imaginations?

Antiparticle:

Please prove any paranormal experience and you get one or more of the prizes in the link above.
True.
This is classic "God of the gaps" apologetics. "God of the gaps" is a receding pocket of scientific ignorance that has been getting smaller and smaller since the scientific revolution started five hundred years ago (modified Neil Degrasse Tyson quote).
There has never been any evidence that any of what you mentioned above is any more than tricks or exploitation of psychological vulnerabilities and biases of people. If you can provide any incontrovertible and convincing evidence, you will be a rich man (see link to prizes above). The best miracle proof you can give though is the regrowing of an amputated arm; I have asked almost every theist for this unfalsifiable miracle but no dice!

Every Physicist know that ENERGY does not exist in ISOLATION.

There is usually a SOURCE or a CAUSE of Energy.

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God is the source of ALL Energies.



Don't forget that Energy is intangible until it acts on matter but it is Real.

God is intangible until He acts on matter yet He is Real.

Matter itself is Energy (Energy in its passive state).

1. Where was the law of Entropy before and when when the Big Bang occured.?

2. Where was the law of Conservation of Energy before the Big Bang occurred?

3. Explain the cause (i.e. why does it occur for atomic and sub-atomic materials?) of "the waves-particle duality of Matter"?

shadeyinka:


You see that both of us have scriptures we follow:
You, the report of Scientists (who claimed they did experiments in the quantum states)

Me, the report of Spiritual men (who claimed they received information from God)

However, you chose NOT to believe the report of the " spiritual men" because they are not scientific in their presentation. Forgetting that, the spiritual is NOT scientific.

Note that the "so called evidences and data" did not originate from you..and except you are an experimental nuclear or plasma physicist, the number of experiments you personally did in quantum physics is limited indeed. You trusted that the mass and charge of electrons are exactly what is presented in book of constants and you use them for calculations without question...isn't the kilogram a choice of scale for mass?

My point is that you discard every attestations of spiritual men simply because they are not scientific. If you turn the table around, suppose I discarded every scientific report because they are not spiritual would you not see me as unreasonable?




Its like saying, Drive your Bus through this Fence without breaking the walls, then I will believe in quantum Physics.

You mean that the spiritual has not been scientifically proven?
Suppose my argument had been that the scientific has not been spiritually proven, you will see me as obstinate, wouldn't you?

The spiritual and the scientific/physical are more or less synonymous to the relationship between the quantum and classical states. They operate on different rules.





Suppose you woke up one day and began to SEE, HEAR, and SPEAK to beings who can only be seen and heard by you, how can it be scientifically proven that YOU speak the truth? Now, to you what you see is reality however, science will conclude that you are hallucinating. Suppose you are not hallucinating, will science not have been sincerely WRONG?

I used the illustration of driving a bus through a wall without breaking the wall as an example of an Atheists expectation of proof Theists must produce to prove the existence of God. If one need a proof of the quantum state he should not rigidly think in the classical state.





You keep saying zero evidence because the only explanation that would have satisfied you is the physical. Like if a massive lightning wrote in the open sky: I AM GOD!!!!....and 20 16feet tall Angels with wings like swans fly around the writing. If science can explain EVERYTHING, your stance would have been understandable. Unfortunately the best you can hope is that probably in future, science will have satisfactory answers to them.

Example:
How come some people have an explicit experience of reality when they have an NDE? (Science cannot theorize that the experiences are dreams because people seldom dream the nature of their kind of experiences).




Still the same thing, you can only accept scientific/physical evidences. However, the truth remains that not everything in life can be measured.


Examples:
Consciousness, Conscience, Faith, Love, Emotion, ...How can YOU scientifically verify any of the above. However, even though these cannot be scientifically verified or quantified, does it make them figments of imaginations?







Every Physicist know that ENERGY does not exist in ISOLATION.

There is usually a SOURCE or a CAUSE of Energy.

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God is the source of ALL Energies.



Don't forget that Energy is intangible until it acts on matter but it is Real.

God is intangible until He acts on matter yet He is Real.

Matter itself is Energy (Energy in its passive state).

Usually, there's a cause of Energy?
My secondary school teacher misinformed me by saying that *Energy can nether be created nor destroyed?*

Toyolad:

Usually, there's a cause of Energy?
My secondary school teacher misinformed me by saying that *Energy can nether be created nor destroyed?*

If at the beginning the total energy in the multiverse is zero. The source of the energy CANNOT be of a material origin. Theist will call this Source GOD!

shadeyinka:


If at the beginning the total energy in the multiverse is zero. The source of the energy CANNOT be of a material origin. Theist will call this Source GOD!

"Energy can neither the created nor destroyed, buy changes in forms"

True or false
if true, then do we need a creator or a causal agent to explain what was neither created nor caused?
If false, why is that statement a law?

Toyolad:


"Energy can neither the created nor destroyed, buy changes in forms"

True or false
if true, then do we need a creator or a causal agent to explain what was neither created nor caused?
If false, why is that statement a law?

Exactly! If the law of conservation of Energy must hold, and the fact that energy cannot spontaneously manifest, then, it means that there is a cause..GOD

shadeyinka:
You see that both of us have scriptures we follow:
You, the report of Scientists (who claimed they did experiments in the quantum states)

Me, the report of Spiritual men (who claimed they received information from God)

However, you chose NOT to believe the report of the " spiritual men" because they are not scientific in their presentation. Forgetting that, the spiritual is NOT scientific.

Note that the "so called evidences and data" did not originate from you..and except you are an experimental nuclear or plasma physicist, the number of experiments you personally did in quantum physics is limited indeed. You trusted that the mass and charge of electrons are exactly what is presented in book of constants and you use them for calculations without question...isn't the kilogram a choice of scale for mass?

My point is that you discard every attestations of spiritual men simply because they are not scientific. If you turn the table around, suppose I discarded every scientific report because they are not spiritual would you not see me as unreasonable?

Actually you don't need to be an experimental nuclear or plasma physicist to observe the effect of quantum mechanics. The operation of semiconductors, emission spectroscopy, etc demonstrate quantum mechanical effects. I have done experiments on both semiconductors and emission spectroscopy to know that quantum mechanics isn't a lie. I also have done simple experiments to demonstrate the wave-particle duality of photons. But that's besides the point. The computer/phone you use to type your work would not work if not for quantum mechanics. This debunks your assertions clearly and definitively! Quantum mechanics is not speculation. It is fact. Notions about the spirit world are arbitrary and unfounded; you have zero proof for it, whereas I have proof for the physical world. The proof about the the correctness of quantum mechanics is in your hands!

shadeyinka:
Its like saying, Drive your Bus through this Fence without breaking the walls, then I will believe in quantum Physics.

shadeyinka:
You mean that the spiritual has not been scientifically proven?
Suppose my argument had been that the scientific has not been spiritually proven, you will see me as obstinate, wouldn't you?

The spiritual and the scientific/physical are more or less synonymous to the relationship between the quantum and classical states. They operate on different rules.

Your claim about a supposed spiritual world is just a claim. You would have to agree this physical world is governed by a set of provable physical laws. There is proof everywhere (e.g. your car, lightbulb, phone, airplane). The scientific method is extremely reliable as demonstrated by most of the technological tools that you use. You attempt to equate the quantum/classical mechanics dichotomy to the physical/spirit worlds is incorrect. There is repeatable quantifiable proof for quantum and classical mechanics, and you can't deny this. There isn't any proof for claims about a supposed spiritual world. Your claims are subjective and arbitrary. Proof is all I ask, not subjective emotional experiences or hallucinations.

shadeyinka:
Suppose you woke up one day and began to SEE, HEAR, and SPEAK to beings who can only be seen and heard by you, how can it be scientifically proven that YOU speak the truth? Now, to you what you see is reality however, science will conclude that you are hallucinating. Suppose you are not hallucinating, will science not have been sincerely WRONG?

Hallucinations are real to the patient, but not a correct objective observation of the world. Please all I ask for is proof. Science is willing to learn and improve itself, and will turn its back on whatever is found to have been incorrect. Religion however is the obstinate free-wheeling arbitrary counter-party to science. So please, proof or evidence.

shadeyinka:
I used the illustration of driving a bus through a wall without breaking the wall as an example of an Atheists expectation of proof Theists must produce to prove the existence of God. If one need a proof of the quantum state he should not rigidly think in the classical state.

No evidence or rational explanation means your claims are arbitrary. Most young students don't enter a quantum mechanics class having expectations about quantum tunneling; yet they are convinced of it because data and empirical observation and/or credible evidence.

shadeyinka:
You keep saying zero evidence because the only explanation that would have satisfied you is the physical. Like if a massive lightning wrote in the open sky: I AM GOD!!!!....and 20 16feet tall Angels with wings like swans fly around the writing. If science can explain EVERYTHING, your stance would have been understandable. Unfortunately the best you can hope is that probably in future, science will have satisfactory answers to them.

Example:
How come some people have an explicit experience of reality when they have an NDE? (Science cannot theorize that the experiences are dreams because people seldom dream the nature of their kind of experiences).

Science can't explain everything yet, but this doesn't give you the epistemological authority to assume that it is YOUR god (or your specific conception of the spirit world) that is responsible for whatever we don't yet understand. "God of the gaps" is a receding pocket of ignorance, and it will continue to recede.

shadeyinka:
Still the same thing, you can only accept scientific/physical evidences. However, the truth remains that not everything in life can be measured.


Examples:
Consciousness, Conscience, Faith, Love, Emotion, ...How can YOU scientifically verify any of the above. However, even though these cannot be scientifically verified or quantified, does it make them figments of imaginations?

Hahahahaha. We can turn off parts of your brain and you lose all consciousness. Consciousness/conscience/love/emotion (etc) are due to physical processes. For you to attempt to ascribe these traits to the "spiritual" when they are in fact undeniably and provably physical is mind-blowing. These traits you infer are "spiritual" are easily distorted when the brain experiences physical trauma.

shadeyinka:
Every Physicist know that ENERGY does not exist in ISOLATION.

There is usually a SOURCE or a CAUSE of Energy.

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God is the source of ALL Energies.

Don't forget that Energy is intangible until it acts on matter but it is Real.

God is intangible until He acts on matter yet He is Real.

Matter itself is Energy (Energy in its passive state).

Which god? Thor? Sango? Amadiora? Obatala? Vishnu?
Let me help you out here:

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God Invisible spiders can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God the transcedental invisible spider is the source of ALL Energies.

Don't forget that Energy is intangible until it acts on matter but it is Real.

God The invisible spider is intangible until He acts on matter yet He is Real.

What you just explained is, in loose terms, deism. I have no problem with deists & deism, this position is defensible.

The problem is that theists make giant but illogical and indefensible leaps away from deism. For example, Christians (of which I assume you are one) make the leap that their god didn't just create the universe but he impregnated a virgin to give birth to himself so that he could die and resurrect himself and then levitate into space solely for the purpose of saving just one specie of his creation from an eternal fire he prepared for them.

What??!?!!! This just makes no sense.

To add insult to injury, Christians claim that this same supposed god favored just one ethnic group of people and for their sakes murdered millions of their neighbors (also his creation) and additionally commanded atrocities such as cutting off of people's hands for petty crimes and non-crimes. Huh??!?!!!

I could go on and on about more absurd Christian claims, but I won't go further. I can respect deism, but theism is neither logically defensible nor sound.

shadeyinka:
If at the beginning the total energy in the multiverse is zero. The source of the energy CANNOT be of a material origin. Theist will call this Source GOD!

Sylvekzee:
This is a waste of time really. Cos a wise man once said, its easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled.

I know right? Like the Muslims

Antiparticle:

Actually you don't need to be an experimental nuclear or plasma physicist to observe the effect of quantum mechanics. The operation of semiconductors, emission spectroscopy, etc demonstrate quantum mechanical effects. I have done experiments on both semiconductors and emission spectroscopy to know that quantum mechanics isn't a lie. I also have done simple experiments to demonstrate the wave-particle duality of photons. But that's besides the point. The computer/phone you use to type your work would not work if not for quantum mechanics. This debunks your assertions clearly and definitively! Quantum mechanics is not speculation. It is fact. Notions about the spirit world are arbitrary and unfounded; you have zero proof for it, whereas I have proof for the physical world. The proof about the the correctness of quantum mechanics is in your hands!



Your claim about a supposed spiritual world is just a claim. You would have to agree this physical world is governed by a set of provable physical laws. There is proof everywhere (e.g. your car, lightbulb, phone, airplane). The scientific method is extremely reliable as demonstrated by most of the technological tools that you use. You attempt to equate the quantum/classical mechanics dichotomy to the physical/spirit worlds is incorrect. There is repeatable quantifiable proof for quantum and classical mechanics, and you can't deny this. There isn't any proof for claims about a supposed spiritual world. Your claims are subjective and arbitrary. Proof is all I ask, not subjective emotional experiences or hallucinations.

Don't get me wrong! Unlike you, I am not disputing Quantum Phenomenon. I am just stating that it takes understanding that another kind of rule different from the classical exists...and that one cannot force the rules of classical physics on quantum physics and expect a harmony.

Antiparticle:

Hallucinations are real to the patient, but not a correct objective observation of the world. Please all I ask for is proof. Science is willing to learn and improve itself, and will turn its back on whatever is found to have been incorrect. Religion however is the obstinate free-wheeling arbitrary counter-party to science. So please, proof or evidence.

You still repeat the same thing over and over again. You need a physical[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font] proof. I keep telling you that the spirit rhelm is not Physical; it operates on a different set of rules. Like, You stay in the classical world and expect Macroscopic proof of the Quantum states.

Antiparticle:

No evidence or rational explanation means your claims are arbitrary. Most young students don't enter a quantum mechanics class having expectations about quantum tunneling; yet they are convinced of it because data and empirical observation and/or credible evidence.

Science can't explain everything yet, but this doesn't give you the epistemological authority to assume that it is YOUR god (or your specific conception of the spirit world) that is responsible for whatever we don't yet understand. "God of the gaps" is a receding pocket of ignorance, and it will continue to recede.

The spiritual world is a term theists will use to describe the fact that a certain Non-Matterial FORCE originated the Universe.

What term do scientists call this FORCE? What term will you Atheists call that FORCE?

Of course, science does not have an answer yet and neither do you! This is because the answer show that another rhelm/phase of existence different from the Physical exists.

Antiparticle:

Hahahahaha. We can turn off parts of your brain and you lose all consciousness. Consciousness/conscience/love/emotion (etc) are due to physical processes. For you to attempt to ascribe these traits to the "spiritual" when they are in fact undeniably and provably physical is mind-blowing. These traits you infer are "spiritual" are easily distorted when the brain experiences physical trauma.

Your arguments is like stating that : "No computer program/software exist in a computer!" We have removed a RAM / the Hard Disc of a computer and discovered that everything that controls the intelligence of a computer is the "Hardware"!

Intuitions, Emotion are not Brain experiences...that is why many times they are not logical.

Antiparticle:

Which god? Thor? Sango? Amadiora? Obatala? Vishnu?
Let me help you out here:

The question is not about the IDENTITY of the God/gods but the conclusion that their seems to be a non material Force behind the functioning of the physical universe.

Antiparticle:

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God Invisible spiders can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God the transcedental invisible spider is the source of ALL Energies.

Don't forget that Energy is intangible until it acts on matter but it is Real.

God The invisible spider is intangible until He acts on matter yet He is Real.

LOL! I can't help but wonder why you cannot seriously examine the question I posed without resorting to a pun...spider!


Can Energy Spontaneously Appear in the Universe?

The question is fundermental to the answer of the question "Does God exists?"


Can you still attempt to cross examine these statements below:

Every Physicist know that ENERGY does not exist in ISOLATION.

There is usually a SOURCE or a CAUSE of Energy.

POSTULATE 1:
If Energy can spontaneously exist in the Universe at the beginning of time, then
God can spontaneously exist.

POSTULATE 2:
If Energy cannot spontaneously exist in the universe at the beginning of time, then God is the source of ALL Energies.

Did I just read somebody say "Religion however is the obstinate free-wheeling arbitrary counter-party to science"

Its obvious some people still think that science means atheism or maybe it means "anti-religion".

SMH.....

Antiparticle:
What you just explained is, in loose terms, deism. I have no problem with deists & deism, this position is defensible.

The problem is that theists make giant but illogical and indefensible leaps away from deism. For example, Christians (of which I assume you are one) make the leap that their god didn't just create the universe but he impregnated a virgin to give birth to himself so that he could die and resurrect himself and then levitate into space solely for the purpose of saving just one specie of his creation from an eternal fire he prepared for them.

What??!?!!! This just makes no sense.

To add insult to injury, Christians claim that this same supposed god favored just one ethnic group of people and for their sakes murdered millions of their neighbors (also his creation) and additionally commanded atrocities such as cutting off of people's hands for petty crimes and non-crimes. Huh??!?!!!

I could go on and on about more absurd Christian claims, but I won't go further. I can respect deism, but theism is neither logically defensible nor sound.

You know I didn't even know that the term "Deism" exists.

noun (plural deisms)
A philosophical belief in the existence of a god knowable through human reason; especially, a belief in a creator god unaccompanied by any belief in supernatural phenomena or specific religious doctrines.

Even though I may present facts like a Deist, but I am not. But I believe strongly that the spiritual is NOT just about Faith but Reason. I try to make sense of the intangible spiritual and honestly, my conclusion is that the Spiritual is LOGICAL.

For instance, I look at the complexity of the simplest atom of Hydrogen and it baffles my mind in the ORDER, PREDICTABILITY and PRECISION. If at the beginning of time, Hydrogen didn't exist, then the Lawbof Entropy would have prevented it from coming into existence. For me, the only feasible explanation is that a non physical FORCE is responsible. This non physical force of cause cannot be bounded by the normal laws of physics. My conclusion, the force is GOD.

I know that to every thing in existence, there is both the "Hardware" and the "Software" part. E.g.
Atom=Hardware
Software= Electrons revolving around the nucleus in its allowed orbital loose no Energy....

One can experience the effect of the "software" for they can be reported only as rules/laws but not tangible... Just as a computer program is not tangible.

If given enough time let's say that the probability that a Toshiba Laptop can self-assemble itself exists (9*10^{-9999999999999999..}). Is it possible that the Microsoft Operating System and the Windows Application will write and install itself?

A computer program connotes an intelligent FORCE. If this Force is intelligent, the force must necessarily be a BEING. My conclusion, GOD is a BEING.

The DNA is like a full library of Books, Journals, Gazettes ....could they have been written and compiled by accident?

I may not understand how God came into existence (of cause there is a limit to how we can go back in time) but it only validates my limitation as a Physical being.

I can go on and on..

I have experienced a few paranormals myself (of cause, they cannot be accepted as scientific evidences).
-I was able to cast out some demons from one of my sisters diagnosed with schizophrenia... she is normal now and doing her Masters at UNILORIN.
-I have been healed instantly of Fever after a short prayer
-My Uncle healed of Blindness at a Deeper life crusade at Ilorin
-I understand the connection of Dreams to one reality
-God has used me to heal a few people

I will also add that many times too, I have FAILED in my "tapping" into the Spiritual (its not like an ON/OFF switch). I am NOT a Pastor, I am an ordinary Christian

You may argue that these possibilities are subjective, no problem! But they are REAL.

Being a Theist is an admission that one recognises and accepts his limitations in Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Ability...

Being a Aheist seems like an admission that one[b] does not[/b] recognise nor accepts his limitations in Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Ability...

I guess we can open another thread much later for the so called "absurd Christian claims".

If Religion cannot lead a person to God
if this person can think
then
Philosophy should lead him to God

felixomor:
Did I just read somebody say "Religion however is the obstinate free-wheeling arbitrary counter-party to science"

Its obvious some people still think that science means atheism or maybe it means "anti-religion".

SMH.....

I read this your quote several times..I am still trying to figure it out! LOL

Antiparticle:
What you just explained is, in loose terms, deism. I have no problem with deists & deism, this position is defensible.

The problem is that theists make giant but illogical and indefensible leaps away from deism. For example, Christians (of which I assume you are one) make the leap that their god didn't just create the universe but he impregnated a virgin to give birth to himself so that he could die and resurrect himself and then levitate into space solely for the purpose of saving just one specie of his creation from an eternal fire he prepared for them.

What??!?!!! This just makes no sense.

To add insult to injury, Christians claim that this same supposed god favored just one ethnic group of people and for their sakes murdered millions of their neighbors (also his creation) and additionally commanded atrocities such as cutting off of people's hands for petty crimes and non-crimes. Huh??!?!!!

I could go on and on about more absurd Christian claims, but I won't go further. I can respect deism, but theism is neither logically defensible nor sound.

Christian theology is like every other religious theology--Utterly Insane.

Sent you a mail and a BBM request. Please respond.

-Lord

shadeyinka:


You know I didn't even know that the term "Deism" exists.


Even though I may present facts like a Deist, but I am not. But I believe strongly that the spiritual is NOT just about Faith but Reason. I try to make sense of the intangible spiritual and honestly, my conclusion is that the Spiritual is LOGICAL.

I am a theist. A non-religious theist or agnostic theist if you will. Here is the thing. The spiritual is NOT logical. It is DEEPLY ILLOGICAL.

I have experienced a few paranormals myself (of cause, they cannot be accepted as scientific evidences).
-I was able to cast out some demons from one of my sisters diagnosed with schizophrenia... she is normal now and doing her Masters at UNILORIN.
-I have been healed instantly of Fever after a short prayer
-My Uncle healed of Blindness at a Deeper life crusade at Ilorin
-I understand the connection of Dreams to one reality
-God has used me to heal a few people

I will also add that many times too, I have FAILED in my "tapping" into the Spiritual (its not like an ON/OFF switch). I am NOT a Pastor, I am an ordinary Christian

You may argue that these possibilities are subjective, no problem! But they are REAL.

Paranormal events have nothing to do with Christianity. Our dibias performed magic in the past. They still do. Even your supposed holy book contend that Moses was challenged by the sorcerers in Pharaoh's court. Whether you choose to believe the story of him besting them, the fact is that they were able to do what Moses did. Eroding whatever peculiarity you think of supposedly Christian or Judaist powers.

The Dalai Lamas for a long time have had memories of older dalai lamas that they neither met nor knew.

There are plenty of concepts that are not thoroughly understood.

In the past, magicians and sorcerers used magic mirrors to communicate with each other. Today, we use mobile phones.

Placebos in many cases work just as effectively as potent drugs. Belief is a strong force.

You may choose to believe that everything paranormal revolves around Christianity. You are wrong. Paranormal events have happened way before Christianity was a thing. Even before Abraham made his supposed covenant.

Don't bring the paranormal as proof of Theism. It says nothing. Magic and Science are so close, the only difference may actually be the name. Voices and images in form of radio waves are around you. You only need an antenna to pick these waves and convert them to forms we can interact with.

Machines can produce images of the inside of your body, diagnosing your condition within minutes. Wake up a 300-yr old human and he would call that magic.

Some humans (people with tetrachromacy) can see 100 times more colors than the average person. Likewise, it is within the ambit of logic that some people may be able to notice energies or visualize events that have happened in time past (your so called prophets and seers who may actually be talented mentalists).

Being a Theist is an admission that one recognises and accepts his limitations in Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Ability...

Being a Aheist seems like an admission that one[b] does not[/b] recognise nor accepts his limitations in Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Ability...

This is absurd. Atheists are better at admitting that they have limitations in knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and ability. Theists are infamous for using impossible phrases like "There is nothing my God cannot do," "The Bible holds all the answers," "[Insert name of religious leader here] is infallible, he can never be wrong."

Atheists accept the current limits of science and knowledge. In fact, they dedicate their time to building on current knowledge to push existing limits.

If Religion cannot lead a person to God
if this person can think
then
Philosophy should lead him to God

People see what they want to see. Religion leads people to mental slavery. Philosophy provides a neutral ground for people to contend their beliefs. So far, theists have been unable to prove compellingly that God exists.

Don't castigate a person for not understanding the concept of God, when all they hear about God are fairy tales, absurd projections (like male and female species of all animals entering an ark--what about the billions of micro-organisms, how was Noah able to tell them apart or even preserve them), or inhumane instructions (ordering the killing of women and children without a moment's thought).

Jesus preached love but condoned slavery. We all say racism is evil, but the bible condones it. Calling an ethnic group Jews, and others Gentiles that are second fiddle in God's plans. The bible opines that God would always protect his own, yet he let millions of Christians die under Emperor Nero, and many Protestants during the Spanish Inquisition.

It's hard to make a case for a God with such tendencies.

Atheists bring sanity to a world where people are too lazy to ask questions. Too willful to accept that "because my Bible says so, then it is true." The same Bible that says Jesus is God in one verse, but says Jesus is the son of God in another verse. And to compound everything, the religious elite and theologians, champions in the art of hoodwinking, coined a term that doesn't even appear in the Bible to describe it--the Holy Trinity.

And when you try to understand the flawed concept and it isn't making any sense, they switch to the default answer that cages gullible minds--God works in mysterious ways, or the ways of God cannot be understood by ordinary mortal beings. Really?!

Mary and Joseph--the parents of Jesus--lived and died as Judaists. They weren't Christians.


If you have to use Philosophy to prove God exists, don't bring paranormal to the discussion. Because the paranormal is not logical to begin with. Last I checked, Philosophy revolves around Logic.

-Lord