If god is all knowing then why didn't he foresee the fall of mankind in the garden of eden ? If he foresaw the fall of mankind but did nothing about it then doesn't that mean he is a cruel sadistic god instead of a loving one ?

Yes, for more explanation visit:

http://www.parsonjohn.com/Wesley%20Sermon%2059.htm

@ Kolaxy


So the christian god is not loving,merciful and fair. Do you agree ?

Atheists:

@ Kolaxy


So the christian god is not loving,merciful and fair. Do you agree ?

if you say you have no religion and arent Christian, why is it your concern?

I already know the answer so dont bother with a response.

Has it occured to you that the "Fall of Man" may refer to Mankind's departure from the spiritual realm towards the world of matter, for the purpose of experiencing and growing?

Has it occured to you that "the garden of Eden" may refer to a spiritual home of mankind which was never on this earth? And that the "Fall" may refer to the leaving of that home to come to this world?

Do these two little teasers make you see that there are many suppositions that you have not even yet considered?

And that this subject is deeper than mere heckling?

Rom 8:19-21
(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The fall of man was all part of God's purpose. Everything that is happening or has been happening and will happen is all according to his purpose.
How you view it is based on how you view the whole picture.

if you say you have no religion and arent Christian, why is it your concern?

Enlightenment of my fellow human beings

If god is all knowing then why didn't he foresee the fall of mankind in the garden of eden ? If he foresaw the fall of mankind but did nothing about it then doesn't that mean he is a cruel sadistic god instead of a loving one ?

I wish your question was based on a sincere desire to know the truth, but alas I am disappointed. First of all God by virtue of being God had to have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would have fallen.

However, God having a foreknowledge of that outcome had nothing to do with their choice. All of God's intelligent creatures that were made after His image, and likeness were made as free moral agents. They were made to understand the consequences that would follow if and when they chose to move from God's plan.

For you to fully grasp the true understanding of why God allowed certain things to have happened, without having to intervene, is to first understand the nature and character of God. Unfortunately, you don't, and I am not even sure if you're willing to find out, but just in case you are willing I'd be more than prepared to supply you with an explanation.

For every question of aspersion that is brought up against God, there is an explanation.

The fall of man was all part of God's purpose. Everything that is happening or has been happening and will happen is all according to his purpose. How you view it is based on how you view the whole picture.

That is true, but they are more eager to find out if God is to blame for not preventing the outcome, or finding out why would such a God after having known still allowed it anyway. That is what is causing the confusion.

They are not prepared to see the bigger plan, or purpose that would have manifested for all God's creation, despite sin and its awful results.

Rom 8:19-21
(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The fall of man was all part of God's purpose. Everything that is happening or has been happening and will happen is all according to his purpose.
How you view it is based on how you view the whole picture.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? [size=15pt]Then whence cometh evil?[/size]
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I am sorry its far bigger than that. Its not a question of God's ability, or inability, unwillingness, or willingness.

If your only concern is where evil came from, then I am ready to start explaining. Is that your starting question?

Atheists:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? [size=15pt]Then whence cometh evil?[/size]
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Isa 45:5-7
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created evil.And all the evil we see is as a result of that which he created.

I guess u'd say, "aha!", but that's because u still haven't seen the bigger picture.

I am sorry its far bigger than that. Its not a question of God's ability, or inability, unwillingness, or willingness.

If your only concern is where evil came from, then I am ready to start explaining. Is that your starting question?

We already know where evil comes from, its gods will. If it is not his will then why does he allow it to happen ?

Isa 45:5-7
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created evil.And all the evil we see is as a result of that which he created.

I guess u'd say, "aha!", but that's because u still haven't seen the bigger picture.

Definition of evil : morally objectionable behavior

Why would an all loving,powerful and knowing god participate in morally objectionable behavior ? So whats the difference between god and satan if god is the creator of evil ?

We already know where evil comes from, its gods will. If it is not his will then why does he allow it to happen ?

If a child chooses to disobey its parent's rules, will it be fair to say its the parent's will? How does God having to know that the first humans would eventually sin, have to do with His character? The fact is His knowing didn't affect their choice.

You cannot expect God on the one hand to give us freedom of will, and choice, and not integrate the risk factor of the consequences of failure to obey.

I mean God could have created robots if He so desired, but how would we show love freely if not by choice? Love for God has to be part of that choice.

Rather than create Automotons, God was prepared to take the risk of allowing evil to manifest itself.

If a child chooses to disobey its parent's rules, will it be fair to say its the parent's will? How does God having to know that the first humans would eventually sin, have to do with His character? The fact is His knowing didn't affect their choice.

Logical fallacy you are comparing oranges to apples i.e parents to god. God created a flawed being intentionally and then punished it for being flawed.

You cannot expect God on the one hand to give us freedom of will, and choice, and not integrate the risk factor of the consequences of failure to obey.

Did God give us free will ? When ?

Logical fallacy you are comparing oranges to apples i.e parents to god. God created a flawed being intentionally and then punished it for being flawed.

If they were flawed then He could not have blamed them, but they had a choice to obey His commands, just like how children have a choice in either obeying or disobeying.

Did God give us free will ? When ?

Are you saying you do not have free will?

I would have to say it here that in light of what the scripture says, we do not have any freewill.

The so called free will which most think we have is not free but subject to the will of God.

Definition of freewill:
- The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Our will is not free since it is influenced by external agencies.

Rom 9:16-21
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 8:20
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Our wills are subject to God's will and purpose. Our so called free will is influenced by what God's will and purpose is and therefore isn't free.

Deep Sight:

Has it occured to you that the "Fall of Man" may refer to Mankind's departure from the spiritual realm towards the world of matter, for the purpose of experiencing and growing?

Has it occured to you that "the garden of Eden" may refer to a spiritual home of mankind which was never on this earth? And that the "Fall" may refer to the leaving of that home to come to this world?

Do these two little teasers make you see that there are many suppositions that you have not even yet considered?

And that this subject is deeper than mere heckling?

and whats the basis of this? any proof?

^^^ Explain these if you can:

"And the Lord God said: Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever/ Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. . . so he drove out the man. . . and placed cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the TREE of Life. . .(Genesis 3: 22 - 24).

Noetic, reflect on this closely. Does it seem to you that this was an earthly event?

Does this have traces of a spiritual happening in the Divine Realm. . . from where man was cast out, to come here to "till the ground". . . and a Cherubim placed, with a sword, to guard the Tree of Life. . .?

What do you think that "Tree" is, and does it seem to you that it can be placed on Earth. . . ? Because the account shows that even God and other heveanly beings may have obtained their "eternal nature" from it? ? ?

Noetic, read that whole account again very very very carefully.

a. do u know that the location of the garden of eden was described by the bible?

b. do u know that God physically planted the garden and that all "events" as obtainable in a planting season took place in this garden? if the garden was in heaven, does rain fall in heaven? does irrigation happen in heaven?

lightwalk:

[center] The ultimate question is "Did God create the devil?" [/center]

And the ultimate answer is: "Yes, God did create the devil. He was created as he is today. He is evil and has been so from the beginning."

lightwalk:

Are you trying to tell me that God knowingly brought evil into this world?
God created something he knew would fight and destroy his creations?
That God created something that was evil?
That God even in all his power could not immediately destroy the devil when he disobeyed?
Think

This God must be a comedian.

playing a prank on his creations.

bawomolo:

This God must be a comedian.

playing a prank on his creations.

Don't interfere in matters you don't understand
Everything has a purpose, and there are those you cannot comprehend. Kolaxy will tell you that!

@ttalk. Try to think critically. There's no truth in delusions except the truth that they are delusions. Come out of your shell, think and stand firm

To all and indeed at Atheist: Allah knows that man will fall from His guidance, before He created Adam, if you read Verse 30 of Surah Baqarah onward.

2:30: And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Satan did not obey Allah by not bowing, and sets up forward the dynamics which finally led Adam and Hawa to be sent out from Paradise and sent down to earth, along with Satan who used to be Iblis, before his disobedience: Verses 37/39; What you will realise here is that Allah created Adam in heaven, then created his mate, Hawa and asked then to enter Paradise.

As planned for earth, in Verse 30, the process of evil from Iblis have to be put in place so that there is a natural reason for mankind to leave Paradise which they have tasted the sweetness, to earth, and a longing for which the to look forward to as a goal as Allah gives guidance of how to achieve it in the revelations to the prophets, if they are followed, by the people under the prophetic office iof said prophet of your time.

Muhammad (AS) is mine and Quran is the guidance, considering that the roadmap for guidance is perfect in it, and unchanging and no need to be updated: Read the inspiration of Allah on Adam and hawa for a way to seek forgiveness, while in Surah Araf verses 10 through 30, you will see the obstinance of Stan not willing to acceptance guidance because of arrogance and pride. Also in these verses you will see the mercy of Allah on mankind allowing and acceptace repentance!

2:37: Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

2:38 : We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.

2:39 : But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.

@Noetic15: « #20 on: October 02, 2009, 09:37 PM »

a. do u know that the location of the garden of eden was described by the bible?

b. do u know that God physically planted the garden and that all "events" as obtainable in a planting season took place in this garden? if the garden was in heaven, does rain fall in heaven? does irrigation happen in heaven?

Show us the place, and is the Vine plant that they covered their unclothedness from its leaves and the apple or fruit that they ate from still there? I will love Noetic15 to show me these things!

lightwalk:

Are you trying to tell me that God knowingly brought evil into this world?
God created something he knew would fight and destroy his creations?
That God created something that was evil?
That God even in all his power could not immediately destroy the devil when he disobeyed?
Think

Yes, God knowingly brought evil into this world.
All to the working of his purpose.

Isa 45:7
(7)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Where is it recorded in the bible that the devil disobeyed God?

All the devil has been doing is what he was created for.

lightwalk:

@ttalk. Try to think critically. There's no truth in delusions except the truth that they are delusions. Come out of your shell, think and stand firm

What is this? 

olabowale:

@Noetic15: « #20 on: October 02, 2009, 09:37 PM »  Show us the place, and is the Vine plant that they covered their unclothedness from its leaves and the apple or fruit that they ate from still there? I will love Noetic15 to show me these things!

have u searched allah's original bible? 

God forsees everything.