amanze15:
really common, you are smarter than this

amanze15:

really, i don't know what you are told in church but for every book and verse in the bible has 1001 interpretations

DorisK:


It won't make sense to you cos you are not a Catholic. Everything is not contained in the bible. And when the bible was recorded, there weren't any saints yet. Saints started with the apostles. You can believe it or leave it

cyrilamx:
that is where you are wrong...the idea of sola scriptura(sctipture alone) promoted by the first protester- Luther doesn't even has scriptural backing...and do u know that the church existed 300 years without the Bible, so where did the early Christians based their authority? And the same church you and your likes are quick to bash, convened the councils saddled with the tasks of selecting/determining from so many books in existence in the early church, which were inspired, which to be part of the books called the Bible. In canonising the Bible, dear, history so much heavily lean to the Catholic side. The councils at Hippo 393 and Carthage 397 under the chairmanship of the greatest African theologian, St. Augustine. And then after successfully piecing thses books together they needed authority to ratify it for the church use...whose authority...a Pope? Yes it was Pope Damasus 1 (Pope from 366-84), he encouraged the canonicity of Bible and approved the first ever Bible, the Latin Vulgate. Mind you the now approved Bible has no chapter nor verses well into the time of Stephen Langton; the Holy Cardinal Archbishop of Canterbury towards the later part of the 13th century. It was he who divided these 72 books into chapters. Google Stephen Langton to educate yourself more. Bear in mind that Christ never wrote anything nor asked his disciples to write anything on his behalf..the only time an apostle was instructed to write down visions, was in book of the apocalypse or Revelation. And when the books of the Bible was been collated, Revelation was set aside initially because of its doubtful authorship and so much imageries and supposed interpolations. However the Pope asked St. Jerome to include and translate Revelation from Greek into Latin. Christ only founded a church upon Peter, the rock. Matt. 16:13-20 and saddled the church to convert/teach all nations. Matt 28:18-20 . It was out of necessity the disciple or apostles decided to write about the life of Christ to address certain questions. That why the first attempt by the Apostles to address the Faith in response to believers' question produced 1 Thessalonia writing about 51 AD before any of the gospel. And in 2.Thes., St. Paul told the believers that the Faith was handed to them in two ways and must be guarded firmly: By words of mouth( Tradition) and letters( writings which later firm the new Testament) 2.Thes. 2:15; 3:6. Again the same apostle told us that the Bible isn't where authority of Christian lies rather in the church. 1.Tim3:15. He said the Church and not the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Need I say more? That this same truth the Catholic Church wield from the time of Christ's ascension in determining the different aspects of church life? Did Christ tell us how to congregate on worship, did he say choir should be formed? Did he approve Sunday as day specifically devoted to worship? Did he approve of a Bible? If you so vocal you can't discuss anything outside the Bible, then begin to lecture me what constitute the early Christian way of life, mode of worship 300 years before the Bible was canonised...are you telling me that all the splinter groups in protestantism/pentecostalism were directed to do so from the Bible? Going against the prayer of Christ for unity in Jn. 17? And these various groups teach not only unorthodox messages but very contradictory...yet they all supposedly base their authority from the Bible. For these ptotesters/splinter group, St. John has a very strong worded message. 1.Jn. 2:18-20. Give me a break for 2 millennia tge church has taught the Faith, even in darkest period of human society the Catholic church was the shining light. Go and read the contribution of the Catholic Church to Western civilization. If the Catholic Church is not the church founded by Christ as you pentecostals are wont to argue, then where is that church today? Redeem? Mfm? Winners? CAC? Because that church must be visible and must trace it history to the Apostles and beside it must be able to teach with authority-making bold claims that only Christ her bridegroom can make. It must be able to bind and loose ( not necessary demons but doctrinal definition) and must tell by the authority of the Holy Spirit that somebody like Mother Theresa having led a heroic/saintly Christian life is in heaven and Heaven will concur. There Catholic Church is a sui generis. She has taught humanity, bled from within and without in taking the gospel to where angels dread to go for two millennia. The problem with pentecostals is they don't have a well grounded theology and authority. It is a group which anyone can wake up, read a portion of the Bible and start a congregation. Mind you hundreds of your kinds can't stand me...it is my field. I must open your eyes to the truth and how gullible you have been.
I rest my pen...waiting for your next outburst...have a blissful day! Peace and Goodness!

donnie:


I know you think you have made sense. I have studied church history. What you wrote here is the catholic version.
There is so much nonsense there. Do you think i cannot also pour out textx here for you?

If you are serious. Put down the points you are making clearly, with paragraphs, or better still, number them.
I will take them one at a time. So what is point number 1. ?

donnie:


I am more catholic than you are. "Catholic" means "Universal". Even though I am not a ROMAN catholic, i have more experience in the catholic way than you as I was born into a veeeery catholic family, had my babptism as a baby, my First Holy communion, but found Jesus before i was through with my Confirmation.

My mum ensured we were all brought up the catholic way. She said the rosary together with us her kids every evening. Her father ( my grandpa) was the man who carried the box of the first white missionary sent to my hometown. His first daughter (my aunt) is a reverend sister. His younger sis (my grand) aunt is a rev sister; in fact the oldest nun ( mother supreme) in my state. His 2 sons went so seniour seminaries but didint become priests tho. When grandpa who was a night of st molumba died, the pope John Paul 11 sent a tribute that was read at the funeral. We have pics of brandma and grandpa kissing the pope's hand. My mum was president of CWO before she traveld to the Uk over 2 decades ago.
She is so high up the catholic ranks that she serves communion alonside the priest during mass.

I took time to tell you all that so that you can understand where i am coming from and that there is nothing you will pull up that i havent heard.

I recall my mum always refering to "the church" as an authority not subject to the bible, but vise versa. Is it not a well known fact that every true catholic adhers to the teachings of "the church" and use the bible as reference only where it seems to agree with church tradition?


That is a very dangerous stance... One which is a reflection of the dark ages from where the church of Jesus Christ has come. It is important that they subdue the truth, keeping people from knowing what the word realy says so they can maintain control their own way.

The bible contains history as well as prophetic revelations of truth.

2Peter 1:21
[i]
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

cyrilamx:
...the idea of sola scriptura(sctipture alone) promoted by the first protester- Luther doesn't even has scriptural backing...and do u know that the church existed 300 years without the Bible, so where did the early Christians based their authority?

donnie:


I am more catholic than you are. "Catholic" means "Universal". Even though I am not a ROMAN catholic, i have more experience in the catholic way than you as I was born into a veeeery catholic family, had my babptism as a baby, my First Holy communion, but found Jesus before i was through with my Confirmation.

My mum ensured we were all brought up the catholic way. She said the rosary together with us her kids every evening. Her father ( my grandpa) was the man who carried the box of the first white missionary sent to my hometown. His first daughter (my aunt) is a reverend sister. His younger sis (my grand) aunt is a rev sister; in fact the oldest nun ( mother supreme) in my state. His 2 sons went so seniour seminaries but didint become priests tho. When grandpa who was a night of st molumba died, the pope John Paul 11 sent a tribute that was read at the funeral. We have pics of brandma and grandpa kissing the pope's hand. My mum was president of CWO before she traveld to the Uk over 2 decades ago.
She is so high up the catholic ranks that she serves communion alonside the priest during mass.

I took time to tell you all that so that you can understand where i am coming from and that there is nothing you will pull up that i havent heard.

I recall my mum always refering to "the church" as an authority not subject to the bible, but vise versa. Is it not a well known fact that every true catholic adhers to the teachings of "the church" and use the bible as reference only where it seems to agree with church tradition?


That is a very dangerous stance... One which is a reflection of the dark ages from where the church of Jesus Christ has come. It is important that they subdue the truth, keeping people from knowing what the word realy says so they can maintain control their own way.

The bible contains history as well as prophetic revelations of truth.

2Peter 1:21

for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Sorry, post was too long for me to read

DorisK:
Sorry, post was too long for me to read

donnie:


But you can sit and say 50 Hail marys, with Our Father, I beleive, hail holy queen, etc without complaining? Abgeg make I hear

donnie:
   

You lie! Or rather, you beleived a lie. The scriptures have always been sacred to God's people as they were regarded as God's Word. Early in history, God began the construction of a book which became the medium of His revelation of Himself to man. It began with the Ten commandments which were written on stone. [Deut 17:18] Moses' laws written in a book were put in the Ark [Deut 31:24-26]. As Early as the days of Samuel, the first record of Israel's history was preserved in the School of the prophets where there was both academic and religious training. [2kings 22:8; Jeremiah 36:32; Zechariag 1:12].  

However, the progression  of the Canon of the Old Testament books was gradual. The Pentateuch was recognized as canonical when Ezra read the Torah to the people publicly. [Ezra 7:6, Nehemiah 8:5]. Ezra and Nehemiah were social and religious reformers who desired clear and definite guidiance for the people and so set up the Pentateuch as the standard for faith and moral instruction.  

The Jewish tradition believes that Ezra, the renowned scribe and reformer was the first person to compile the Old testament.As these books were written beginning with Moses, they were at the time recognised as inspired by God and placed in the tabernacle or the temple along with the collection of sacred writtings. During the Babylonian captivity, they were scattered,  and many copies destroyed.  

It is believed that Ezra after returning from captivity, re-assembled these scattred copies and restored them to their original place in the temple. From the temple other copies were made for the synagogues. So Ezra the prophet led the first recognition council.  

The complete works of Josephus asserts that the Old Testament cannon was fixed during the reign of Artexerxes (the time of Ezra).  

His words...   We have but 22 books containing the history of all time, books beleived to be divine. Of these, 5 belong to Moses, containing his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind down to the time of his death. From the death of Moses to the reign of Artaxerses the prophets who succeeded Moses wrote the history of events that occured in their own time, in 13 books. The remaining 4 books comprise hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life. from the days of Artaxerxes to our times every event had indeed been recorded; but these recent records have not been deemed worthy of equal credit with those which preceded them, on account of the failure of the exact succession of prophets. There is practical proof of the spirit in which we treat our scriptures; for though so great an interval of time has now passed, not a soul has ventured to add or to remove or to alter a syllable; and it is the instinct of every Jew, from the day of his birth, to consider these scriptures as the teaching of God, and to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to lay down his life on their behalf."  

This testimony is held in very high regard. Josephus who was born in AD 37 in Jerusalem, was from the Hasmonean (priestly) aristocracy. He received an extensive education in Jewish and Greek cultures. He was governor of Galilee and military commander in the wars with Rome.  

These words of Josephus unquestionably concurs with:
1. The beleif of the Jewish nation of Jesus' day as to what books comprised the Hebrew scriptures.
2. The belief that the collection of books had been completed and predetermined for 400 years preceeding his time.  

PRINCIPLES GUIDING THE CHOICE OF CANONICAL BOOKS:

1. They were books that had been in existence for a considerable time and were well known.
2. They were books associated with some great names e.g. Books of Moses, Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon.
3. They were books closely associated with national history or with national festivals.
4. It was believed that the voice of God was heard in all the books admitted into the canon, as He had spoken to the Patriachs, leaders and prophets of the Hebrew race.
5. They were recognized or quoted by Christ or the apostles.    

UNCANONICAL BOOKS Historically many wrote novels and fantastic stories about Jesus Christ; His life and His parents, and other Bible chracters. This became a problem for the early church to decide which books were inspired until the final settlement at the council of carthage in 397A.D. There were also a group of fable books which were rejected from the present canon of scriptures.  

REASONS FOR REJECTING UNCANONICAL BOOKS

1. They were not written by prophets and there were no prophetic elements is them.
2. The jews did not recognize them as inspired and part of scriptures.
3. They were not recognized or quoted by Christ and the Apostles.
4. Most were written during the space of the silent 400 year period between Malachai and the birth of Christ. It was so called, because of the gap in the biblical record and the silencing of the prophetic voice.
5. The authors do not claim divine authority.
6. The books contain statements at variance with bible history.
7. They are self contradictory and in some cases directly oppose the doctrines of scriptures.
8. Josephus who lived during the time of the apostles did nit recognise any of the books. He stated that the old testament in our present version was the only inspired writing.
9. The apocryphal were not a part of the ancient versions of scripture.
10. They reveal free use of the imagination which led to preposterous stories.
11. The genuineness of its apostolic origin could not be proven.    

THE APOCRYPHA Apocrypha literally means,"that which is hidden". This the name usually given to the 14 books contained in some bibles between the old and new testaments.  
They originated between the first to third centuries BC, mostly of uncertain authorship. They were added to the Greek Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Old Testament written in that period. They were not co-opted into the Hebrew old Testament, because they were written after Old Testament prophecies, oracles and direct revelation had ceased.  

Josephus rejected them as a whole. The jews never recognized them as part of the Hebrew scriptures. Neither did Jesus or any of the other New Testament writers ever quote from them. They were not accepted as cononical books.  

In the council of Trent in 1546 A.D. THE ROMAN CATHOLICS accepted these books and added them to their modern version of scripture known as the Douay Version. These books are: 1Esdras, 2Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Rest of Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasses, 1Maccabees, 2Maccabees.  

These books were declared uncanonical because they possessed little or no evidence of divine inspiration and authority; neither did they have bearing with redemption by faith. Hence they are not a part of the scripture as a rule of faith for every christian.
It must be understood that the bible is not an authorised collection of books but it is a collection of authorised books.  

IN THE DAYS OF JESUS They had The Scriptures which they read from and which later became known as The Old Testament. The people commonly regarded it as having come from God and as the Word of God. Jesus recognized it thus [Luke16:29] and it was read publicly and taught regularly in the synagogues [Luke 4:21].  

THE EARLY CHURCH: As the writings of the apostles appeared, they were added to the Jewish scriptures as were held in the same sacred regard. Each church wanted not only what had been addressed to it, but copies of writtings addressed to other churches. The collections of writings of the apostles for the church began while they were still alive and were personally supervised by them. They were placed with the old testament as the Word of God.  

PAUL declared that his teachings were divinely inspired [1Cor 2:7-13; 24:37; 1Thes 2:13]. From his epistles, it was obvious that his intention was for them to be read in the churches. [Col 4:16; 1Thes 5:27].  

PETER (your pope) wanted them to have these things always in their remembrance [2Pet1:15]. PETER referred to Paul's epistles in his epistle as scripture [2Pet 3:15-16].  

Now let me come to you. I would not have taken time to give you all this information if you hadn't begun to refer to protestants as without a definite history or connection to the apostles and prophets while pretending and protraying yourself and your Roman catholic church as custodians of the scripture.  

Time will not let me delve into the many attrocious activities and the attempt by the roman catholic church to conceal the scriptures during the dark ages (a period or worldliness where corruption, greed and politics ruled the church).

The bible as we have it today came to us by the blood of many who were killed as heretics by the Roman catholic authorities because they beleived that eveyone should have apportunity to hear and read the  truth of God's Word. As long as people are uninformed and in the dark with little or no knowledge of God's word, you can tell them anything and they will beleive. They even sold indulgences to those who could afford for the "forgiveness of sins" and to reduce the days they will spend in purgatory.  

Since their failed attempt at concealing truth, and in order to continue in their corruption unchallenged, they carried out Plan B: To water down the truth such that it looses its relevance as divinely inspired and a guide for faith, society and everyday living. They would rather that the Papacy maintained its wicked control, giving dictates as the so-called vicar of Christ. They introduced uncanonical books and mixed heathen cultures and traditions with the faith handed down by the apostles of the Lord.  

You my friend unfortunately want to sell the same lies. But it will not work.

brunofarad:
Shey na only oyibo people them dey make saint ni ?





Canonize IWENE TANSI now





Religion and politics.........majek fashek

cyrilamx:
Conclusion of reply to donnie.

..."We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (On the Care That Should be Taken for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

donnie:


Seriously? Even when the bible clearly states that a Word must be confirmed from the mouth of at least 2 or 3 witnesses? This is the reason for the many false doctrines in the Roman Catholic church. Thank God for the Spirit led church fathers who rejected such books as uncanonical.


Deuteronomy 17:6 6 On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. 7 The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.


19:15 Laws Concerning Witnesses
15 “A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established. 16 If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing,

donnie:
@Cyrilamx



Listen my dear frined, what you fail to to realise is that God is not interested in these your denominations; rather, in every generation He seeks those who worship him according to His prescribed patern. You can never go wrong relying on The Word and the Holy Spirit. The Word (and not the pope) will judge this world at the end.

My original intention is not to get into arguments on bible history but to counter your wicked maneuvers at exalting the doctrines and traditions of men as promoted by the Roman catholic church above the True Word of God.