Face to face with Osama bin Laden
• ‘I made my will before going to interview him’
By MIKE AWOYINFA and DIMGBA IGWE (Reported from Helsinki, Finland)
Saturday, October 10, 2009
Osama bin Laden
Photo: Sun News Publishing
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When an intrepid and award-winning Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir scooped an exclusive interview with the world’s most wanted man, Osama bin Laden, the world’s intelligent agencies swooped on him like bees.

They wanted to know how he was able to get an interview with a man who had defied the prying searchlight of the world’s most sophisticated intelligent agencies, like America’s CIA, Pakistani Intelligence Services, Israeli’s Mossad and Britain’s M-15, among others.

Mr. Mir scaled through the rigorous intelligence inquest only because he posed the toughest of questions to the godfather of Islamic terrorism, Osama bin Laden and the nemesis of Western imperial swagger.

He said: “In going to interview Osama, I risked my life. Here was the man the whole world was looking for. Then I was also investigated by the various intelligence agencies. I was vindicated just because I put the very hard and unfriendly questions to the most wanted terrorist in the world. The US Ambassador in Pakistani told me: ‘You were saved because of your questions.”

Ironically, Mr. Mir was also put through severe, life-threatening test before the interview by al Qaeda operatives, who feared that he might be a mole of the Western intelligence agencies who would do anything to get Osama bin Laden dead or alive.

Mir’s story is the story of grit, gut and willingness on the part of a journalist to risk his life to get a great story. A great story he got, but not before passing through the eye of a needle.
The Osama people had to put the poor reporter through a baptism of fire, as a precautionary measure to protect the world’s most wanted extremist and elusive fugitive.

As part of the baptism of fire, Hamid Mir recalls: “They asked me to take a bath with hot water. They placed some jell on my body; then they gave me some medicines and I had loose motions. I was not well when I was interviewing him. They took all precautionary measures. For two days, they were giving me medicine and I was just shitting. They were putting jell on my body again and again.
“I took hot water bath 15 times before interviewing him. They were suspecting there were some chemicals on my body, which could make it possible for the Americans to detect my location through the satellite. That’s why they asked me to take bath again and again. They were suspicious that maybe I had something in my stomach.

So, they gave me medicine for loose motions. You see, they never treated me very well.”
Mir was the moderator at the annual conference of the International Press Institute (IPI) World Congress and 58th General Assembly, which took place in Helsinki Finland from June 6-9, 2009. He was at the IPI to moderate the topic: “Talking to Terrorists: Should journalists, who provide the public with the information they need to understand the complexities of the battle against terrorism, talk with terrorists? Do they do so at the risk of becoming pawns in the terrorists’ public relations campaign? Where should journalists draw the line?”

As part of his remarks, Mir, who had interviewed Osama bin Laden thrice, told the delegates part of his Osama story. He said:
“When I interviewed Osama bin Laden first in 1997, at that time he was not a very popular international figure. My objective was to know whether he was involved in the killing of the Pakistani soldiers in Somalia in 1993. I was just trying to investigate who killed the Pakistani soldiers who were there on United Nations peace mission. And he confirmed: ‘Yes, I killed Pakistani soldiers because they were guarding the US soldiers.’

“So, actually I was trying to find out the story and I got the story. Then in 1998, he issued a fatwa to kill all the Americans and I asked him: Can you justify the killing of innocent people in the light of Islamic teachings? The third time, it was after 9/11. And I must tell you it was a lot of risk I had to take. When I went there I was not sure I would arrive back to my office safely. I even made a will to my wife. I wrote a letter of apology to my wife explaining why I went to risk my life.

“It is not a very easy but then when you are confronting a big terrorist, one thing must be kept in your mind; that you should not become a tool. He wants to propagate his views; he wants you to ask easy question; he wants you to become his mouthpiece but it is your duty as an objective journalist to ask him difficult questions so that if you are arrested by the intelligence agencies or your government is not happy with your mission, then you can present your questions as an evidence that you actually confronted the terrorist and you actually exposed him, you actually proved him wrong. Your conscience, your professional ethics, everything must be kept in mind. I believe as journalists we should serve the society; we should not serve terrorism.

“In going to interview Osama, I risked my life. Here was the man the whole world was looking for. Then I was also investigated by the various intelligence agencies. I was vindicated just because I put the very hard and unfriendly questions to the most wanted terrorist in the world. The US Ambassador in Pakistan told me: ‘You were saved because of your hard questions.’

“The intelligence agencies could not find him. At the time I went there, the war was still going on in Afghanistan and it was very difficult for any journalist to enter that area. When I reached Kabul, a massive carpet-bombing had started. I lost the hope of living. I thought I would be killed. I was the only journalist left in Kabul. Immediately after that interview, they entered the city of Kabul—the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Maybe that was the last interview he gave to any journalist. For me, it was only madness that drove me. I got the interview out of madness. There was another journalist, Robert Fisk. He also interviewed Bin Laden three times.”

When asked by a journalist on the floor why he did not brief the CIA after his trip, Mir responded: “It is not our job to brief CIA. It is the job of the CIA to learn something from us.”
After the discussion we, the two reporters from The Sun, engaged Hamid Mir in an exclusive interview on his life as a journalist and what prompted him to go to Afghanistan in search of Osama bin Laden. According to him, it was simply “madness” and a challenge to prove to an American lady reporter that he had the gut to do what the Americans couldn’t do — by going to cover the Afghanistan war from the war front in Afghanistan and not from the safety of a five-star hotel in Pakistan like the American reporters did.
Excerpts:

What prompted you to come into journalism?
I became a journalist because my father was a professor of journalism and he died at a very early age because he was fighting against the dictator in Pakistan. He poisoned him and I became a journalist just to continue his mission.

How did you learn the ropes?
I learn journalism after the sudden death of my father. I was a college student at that time. He died at a very early age. I was the elder one; so it was my responsibility to look after my family. So that’s why I became a journalist.

What kind of journalist was your father?
The name of my father was Waris Mir. He was the professor of journalism in the University of Pujab, Lahore, Pakistan. And he used to write a column in the biggest newspaper of Pakistan, which is called Daily Jang. He was a great critic of General Zia-ul-Haq, who ruled Pakistan from 1977 to 1988. General Zia-ul-Haq introduced some so-called Islamic laws in Pakistan. He started helping America in fighting in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. So, my father was against the dictatorship of General Zia-ul-Haq. He started criticising him. And in 1987, General Zia-ul-Haq killed my father through slow poisoning. So when my father died, I was only 22 years old at that time. I just graduated from college and was about to go to the university.

We were not a very rich family. It was my responsibility to look after the family. I was the editor of the college magazine; so I applied for a job in the same newspaper; my paper was writing for and I got the job of an apprentice reporter in training there. That’s how my journalistic career started in 1987. Now, I am 22 years in journalism.

How did you rise in the profession?
I made a name for myself through scoops and big interviews. First of all, in 1994, I interviewed the Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres in Switzerland. I was there with Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. It was at the World Economic Forum meeting. As is known, Pakistan and Israel do not have diplomatic relations. I was the first ever Pakistani journalist to interview any Israeli leader. So that was my major scoop. And then in 1995, I interviewed President Nelson Mandela in New Zealand. And then I interviewed President Yasir Arafat. So, that’s how I made my name.

These interviews made me very famous in Pakistan. Especially, the interview with Nelson Mandela was a big hit. Because I was the only journalist in the whole of the South-Asian region, including India, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh, to ever interview President Nelson Mandela. And with the passage of time, after a few years in 1997 I interviewed Osama bin Laden for the first time. I interviewed him again in 1998 and then I interviewed him for the third time in November 2001. And after that, in 2004, I interviewed the U.S. Secretary of State Collin Powell. Then I interviewed Condoleezza Rice. Then I interviewed Tony Blair. Then the President of Afghanistan, Mr. Hamid Kazei and many international celebrities.

How important are these big interviews in the life of a journalist?
These interviews are important because when you talk to tough people, you talk to famous people, and you ask them tough questions, valid questions, your readers come to know about your competence. They can judge your quality through your questions. If you have dug out a big story out of an interview, you are a good journalist.

What kind of preparation did you make to get Osama bin Laden?
When I was going to interview him for the first time in 1997, I was not aware of who he is, where he is from. I had very little knowledge about him. But when I interviewed him after 9/11, I asked him tough questions. And when I asked those tough questions, sometimes he got angry with me. He never answered some of the questions. And when the interview ended, he had tea with me, then he tried to terrify me. He said: “Mr. Mir, the bombing is going on, you may be killed with me and I will be happy to go to paradise.” But I told him: “I will go to hell with you.”

How did he react to your statement?
He never responded because he was not expecting such an ugly answer from me. Because at that time, I was of the view that I would not be alive. I felt that in the next few minutes, maybe I would be killed, so why should I be terrorised under pressure by this man? So he was talking nasty with me and I was talking nasty with him.

What are some of the hardest questions you asked him?
One of the questions was: “How can you justify the killing of innocent people in the 9/11 attacks?” Then I asked him another question: “There is a rumour that you have married the daughter of Mullah Umar, the head of Taliban. And that is why he has provided you with sanctuary in Afghanistan.” He was not expecting these kinds of questions from me. I also asked him: “You are suffering from kidney disease and you may not live very long.” But he said: “No, no, no, I am not suffering from kidney disease.” These were questions he had not been asked before and these were the questions, which saved me, because after coming back to Pakistan I was investigated by the Pakistani Intelligence Services and the Pakistani Intelligence Services were provided a lot of questions by the American CIA. They actually wanted to arrest me but I was very careful.

I never violated any international law. I got visa; there were visa stamps on my passport; I had the recording of the interview on my tape, I had the pictures, the negatives, each and everything. Many people said I had not interviewed bin Laden and that I was making the wrong statements just to become famous. But the CIA, the Pakistani Intelligence Services and the CNN — Nick Robertson of CNN — investigated and said it on CNN that “it is a genuine interview; we have examined the negative; we have examined the audio tape recorder, each and everything.” That was how I survived.

Who took the photographs while you were interviewing him?
I had my camera with me, but bin Laden never allowed me to use my camera. He never allowed me to use my camera because he was very careful. He took my camera; he emptied the camera; my film was removed. He put his film inside my camera and he gave that camera to his son, Abdulrahman, who took the pictures of me and bin Laden. He also recorded that interview on some small DVD Sony cameras. He recorded that for himself on the video camera, but for me, he gave only some still shots and the recorded interview on the tape recorder.

How come he was not suspicious of you? You could have been a spy.
Because I interviewed him two times before and his people spent two days with me in Afghanistan. They asked me to take a bath with hot water. They placed some jell on my body; then they gave me some medicines and I had loose motions. I was not well when I was interviewing him. They took all precautionary measures. For two days, they were giving me medicine and I was just shitting. They were putting jell on my body again and again. I took hot water bath 15 times before interviewing him. They were suspecting there were some chemicals on my body and the Americans can detect my location through the satellite. That’s why they asked me to take bath again and again. They were suspicious that maybe I had something in my stomach. So they gave me medicine for loose motions. You see, they never treated me very well.

What gave you the courage for all these?
It’s a good question. When the Americans started the war in Afghanistan, the whole Western media came to Pakistan. And they started covering the war in Afghanistan. They were standing on the roof of Marriot Hotel in Islamabad. So, one day I had a discussion with an American television journalist. She was a producer at the CBS news channel. And I asked her: You people are covering the war in Afghanistan while standing on the rooftop of a five-star hotel. Why don’t you go to Afghanistan? And she said arrogantly: Why don’t you go to Afghanistan? You also don’t have the balls to go to Afghanistan. You cannot face the bombing. That was the challenge for me.

So, I said: I will go. You will give me your cameramen and I will go and I will make some good shots. So, interviewing bin Laden was not on my mind. When I entered Afghanistan, the bombing started; so it was not possible for me to go back. Because that road was bombed by the Americans. So, we rushed toward Kabul. We reached Kabul and I was the only journalist there and the bombing was going on there. That was in November 2001, two months after the war. All the journalists run away. I had no option than to stay there because bombing was going on. And in the meantime, I met some fighters there in Kabul. The city of Kabul was empty.

There were only Al Qaeda fighters there. One of them recognized me and said: “Mr. Mir, how are you?” I asked him: “Where is your leader? I want to interview him.” He said: “No, no, no, he cannot give you an interview this time. The war is going on.” I said, “OK, I can stay here.” Because it was not possible for me to go back. I was stuck up in the war zone. I spent two days and finally I was able to get that interview. I got the interview out of madness. Because the war was going on and one American journalist challenged that if she cannot go to Afghanistan, then I cannot go too. But I proved that I can go to Afghanistan. That was the main objective. To go to Afghanistan. The main objective was not to interview Osama bin Laden.

What lessons can you draw from this concerning what makes a good reporter?
I must say risk is the beauty of journalism. If you don’t take risks, you cannot become a good journalist. A good reporter must be well-read; he must be honest; he should be objective; he should not take sides with political parties or whoever.

For me, a good journalist cannot remain neutral. I don’t believe in neutrality, because you cannot become neutral between good and bad. One thing is good; one thing is bad. If you are writing an opinion column, then you have to take the side of good people, you have to take the side of justice, you have to take the side of honesty. You cannot take the side of dishonesty. You cannot take the side of the President or the prime minister of the country. Always take the side of the good and honest people. If you are reporting news, you have to be objective. But if you are writing an opinion column, you have to take the side of justice and honesty.

What is news?
News is 5Ws. (Who, What, Where, When, Why?) Any incident taking place at any particular time at any particular place is news, and you have to report it. You should become a mirror in which the reader of your paper can see the incident. So a good reporter should behave like a mirror. And a good opinion writer, opinion column writer should act like a guide, should act like a man who is giving light in the darkness.

What does it mean to report?
You have to report what happened, where it happened and who did it. That’s all: 5Ws. This is the international principle of reporting. But a reporter should not become a tool of any political group; he should not become a tool of any terrorist group; he should not become a tool of any government; he should remain neutral. But I am repeating again and again, a good editorial writer and a good opinion column writer should not be neutral. You cannot be neutral; otherwise nobody would read your column.

What’s your impression of Osama bin Laden?
The main source of his strength is the bad American policies. If America today corrects its policies, if today America is ready to resolve the issue of Palestine, withdraw its forces from Afghanistan and Iraq, Osama bin Laden would be eliminated politically. But if you are not ready to resolve the issue of Palestine, you are not ready to resolve the issue of Kashmir, you are not ready to withdraw US forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and you want to kill Osama bin Laden, you will not get rid of terrorism. You can kill him physically but you would not be able to kill him politically. So, try to eliminate him politically by addressing some political issues.

In your opinion, is he still alive?
Yes, he is still alive and he is hiding somewhere in the eastern or southern part of Afghanistan.

Can you describe the milieu in which you found him?
First time I met him in the mountains in 1997. Second time I met him in the city of Kandahar. Third time I met him in the city of Kabul.

Can you describe him?
He is a very tall man, very smart man. I must say he is a lady killer but you don’t have picture of beauty.

What was the challenge of being the youngest man to edit a national newspaper in Pakistan?
I became editor at the age of 30 in 1996. When I became editor, I had never interviewed bin Laden. I became editor because my chief editor was of the view that I may become a very successful editor because I was very hardworking. So hard work and honesty forced my chief editor to appoint me editor of my newspaper.

What did you take after your father?
I learnt honesty from my father. I learnt bravery and courage from my father and I am very proud to be his son and I think that today I have outstanding achievements in journalism because of my father.

What values did your father stand for?
He stood for democracy, for human rights, for liberal and progressive Islam and he always stood for the truth.

How about your own family?
I have one son and one daughter. My son is not interested in becoming a journalist but my daughter is very much interested and I think she would become a good journalist.

he can never be caught. don't waste your time and precious taxpayers money, not to talk of the soldiers being killed in vain.