Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland
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Why We Should Ban Tatbir And Zanjir In Our Centres / The Origin Of Maulud - Part Of Islam Or Innovation / Bid'ah(innovation In The Matters Of Religion) (2) (3) (4)
| Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 7:57am On Oct 08, 2016 |
This article is curled unedited from www.tatbir.org TATBIR A Disturbing Innovation "Become an ornament for us, do not be a disgrace for us." ~ Imam al-Sadiq (a) "Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind them as you would thereby be ruined." ~ Imam Ali (a) WHAT IS TATBIR? Tatbir (Arabic) is amongst a set of bloody rituals that are performed by some Shia Muslims in commemoration of the great tragedy of Karbala, when the family of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s) was massacred by a group of Muslims. Tatbir is performed by striking the head with a sword or knife until blood gushes out. In the Persian language Tatbir is called Qama Zani. Some Shias in the Indian subcontinent also perform an act called Zanjeer Zani (usually called Zanjeer). It involves repeatedly striking the back with a chain of blades with the intention of cutting the skin and causing blood to flow. Tatbir and Zanjeer are the two most widely practiced of the blood shedding rituals. Other rituals include injuring oneself with a stone, padlock or chain. Although these blood shedding rituals are historically not a part of Shia Islam, for many Shia Muslims they have become a central part of their religious practice. Some Shias hold these rituals in very high regard and reckon them to be amongst the most holy acts of worship. The zealous advocates of the blood rituals put a huge emphasis on these acts and employ a lot of resources to promote their practice. Some of them can be quite hostile to those Shia who do not hold the these practices in such high esteem or consider the rituals to be detrimental to the image of Shia Muslims. We cannot say that Islam directly prohibits these rituals (as long as they are done without causing significant harm such as the loss of a limb, a bodily organ or a function of the body) because the rituals did not exist when the teachings of Islam were being revealed. Therefore the Quran and Sunnah do not address the permissibility of Tatbir and Zanjeer directly. According to the principles of Islamic jurisprudence, everything is considered permissible unless there is direct evidence for its prohibition. Thus the Shia scholars have not prohibited the blood shedding rituals on their own since the Quran and Sunnah do not speak about these actions. However the vast majority of contemporary Shia scholars have ruled that the rituals are forbidden on the condition that their performance would lead to the violation of other established Islamic principles (e.g. the prohibition of defaming the Shia faith). Unfortunately many supporters of the blood rituals flagrantly misrepresent the opinions of the leading Shia scholars by ignoring the rulings which prohibit these practices (due to them violating established Islamic principles) and they present the unmodified rulings which state their permissibility, without considering the prohibitive factors. This website aims to highlight the rulings of the great Shia scholars on this issue and to elaborate upon the Islamic reasons for the discouragement and prohibition of these cultural practices. The primary reason for the prohibition is the bad image that is given to Islam and Shi’ism in particular, and there are also many other reasons which will also be discussed. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 7:59am On Oct 08, 2016 |
# It was Never Practiced or Recommended by the Ahlulbayt (a) Blood mourning rituals were never practiced by the founders and teachers of Shia Islam. There is not a single shred of evidence that the latter Imams (a) performed blood rituals. The modern day proponents of these damaging rituals shy away from mentioning this glaring fact. If these rituals had any inherent merit in the eyes of Islam then they would have been practiced by the Holy Prophet (s) and the Twelve Holy Imams (a). It is very disingenuous and an affront to the holy Ahlulbayt (a) to suggest that they did not practice a ritual that is supposedly highly meritorious. To say that that blood rituals are recommended is to infer that the Imams (a) refrained from a recommended act. The Ahlulbayt (a) are divinely guided role models for Muslims and it is an obligation upon us to try and emulate them. Therefore it could be argued that the best way to mourn Imam Hussain (a) is by emulating the mourning of Ahlulbayt (a). Since they (a) did not perform these rituals, then the Shia should walk in their footsteps and refrain from performing them. A Shi’i who keeps away from blood rituals is closer in action to the Ahlulbayt (a) than one who performs them. Considering the very controversial nature of the rituals, it wise to refrain from them and to carefully follow the practices of Ahlulbayt (a) in the manner that has been recommended by Imam Ali (a): “Look at the people of the Prophet’s family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind them as you would thereby be ruined.” – Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 96. Some of the proponents of blood shedding say that the rejection of the rituals cannot be justified on the basis that the Imams (a) did not perform them because there are many things that we do today (e.g. drive cars, fly planes, use the Internet etc.) which the Imams never did. This of course is very primitive reasoning. Blood shedding cannot be compared to these other things because: 1, It was available during their (a) time whilst these other things were not. 2, The Imams (a) put a great deal of emphasis on mourning for Imam Hussain (a) and never made use of blood shedding even though it was available to them. 3, Blood shedding rituals almost always violate certain Islamic principles and these other novelties don’t. # The Absence of Evidence is Sufficient Some proponents of blood flagellation argue that the Imams (a) may have performed the rituals in private, and that may be the reason why we have no evidence that they (a) performed these rituals. Therefore we should not deny the fact that these rituals are Islamically recommended. Any sincere person with a working intellect would not fail to see the flaw in that argument. If the argument were valid then it could be applied to a whole range of actions that have no Islamic backing. Any given Muslim could innovate a ritual and claim that we should not deny that it is Islamically recommended because it may have been performed by the Ahlulbayt (a) in private. For example we could innovate a new prayer with sixty four rakats and justify it by saying: “Don’t say it is not mustahab, maybe the Imams (a) did it in private!” The lack of evidence in this case is sufficient to justify the proposition that the Imams (a) did not perform those rituals. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 8:02am On Oct 08, 2016 |
Having a False Image of the Sunnah If any open-minded individual were to study the Quran and the lives of the Infallibles (a), they would obtain an image of Islam that is quite different to what is being promoted by some Muslims. In order to understand the reasons for the discouragement of blood rituals, we must always keep in mind the lifestyles of the Prophets (a) and Imams (a), and the general theme of the Quran, and to compare all of these to the observance of the blood shedding ceremonies. If we were to do this, we would come to the conclusion that these ceremonies are far removed from the Sunnah and the general teachings of Ahlulbayt (a). The Holy Prophet (s) and his family (a) have never taken part in any ceremony that resembles the blood rituals that we see today. We must not allow our imaginations to conjure up unjustified notions that force blood shedding rituals into the Sunnah of the Ahlulbayt (a); instead we must accept the truth of the matter and admit the fact that these acts are very alien to the lifestyles of the Prophets (a) and the Ahlulbayt (a). The History of Blood Mourning Ceremonies For about a millennium after the tragedy of Karbala, the Shia did not practice blood shedding when mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a) or any of the Ahlulbayt (a). Instead they mourned in a traditional and more natural manner, which included the methods used by the Imams (a) and their families. However this changed when blood rituals were introduced into the mourning gatherings of the Shia. Historians have shown that blood rituals were foreign cultural practices that were introduced to certain elements of the Shia community relatively recently in the history of the religion. Quoting Professor Werner Ende in “The Flagellations of Muharram and the Shi’ite ‘Ulama’”: Muhammad Mahdi al-Qazwini, however, in a work finished in the month of Ramadan 1345 H (March 1927), claims that the use of iron, i.e. of chains and swords for flagellation, was initiated “about a century ago” by people not well versed in the rules of the shari `a. Below is an excerpt from the book “A Hidden Hand” which describes how these cultural practices entered the Shia community via external sources. There are differences of opinion as to when blood matam started.1 The most reliable opinion is that the cutting of the head was a practice performed by the Turks in Azerbaijan which was transferred to the Iranians and Arabs.2 The Iraqi author of the book "The Tragedy of Karbala" also believes that such practices were not common in Iraq before the nineteenth century. At the end of this century they started to gain popularity in this country. Therefore, blood matam started elsewhere and came to Iraq which means it is not rooted in Arab heritage.3 Shaykh Kazim Dajili also accepts this view and says: “Iraqis did not participate in these processions until the beginning of the twentieth century. This practice was first seen amongst the Turkish Iraqis, Sufis, and Western Iranian Kurds.”4 A report by English sources covering Ashura in Najaf in the year 1919 shows that 100 Turkish Shias performed blood matam that year.5 Memories of Sayyid Muhammad Bahr al-Ulum support this claim as well: “When I was in Najaf around 50-60 years ago there were only a fewTurkish mourning groups. They would come to Sayyid Bahr al-Ulum’s house on the days of mourning and with his permission they would recite emotional poems about Imam Hussayn (a). Some of them would slightly injure themselves while listening to the poems in order to try to feel what Imam Hussayn felt. Slowly this type of action changed and spread until it reached its peak when it was outlawed in 1935 by Yasin Hashimi, the prime minister of the time. In reality, this oppressive action had an opposite effect1 – in such a way that the number of mourning groups tripled.”2 Hajj Hamid Razi (d.1953) was a police man in Karbala and lived to be about 110 years old. He told his memories regarding the mourning of Imam Hussayn (a) – about blood matam which he says was not normally practiced in Najaf or Karbala when he was young.3 There has been no recollection by elder people of Najaf and Karbala saying that there were these processions before the middle of the nineteenth century. These processions where first performed by Turkish visitors from the Qizilbash Tribe. When they would perform a ziyarat to Imam Hussayn (a) they would strike their heads with special swords.4 Yitzhak Nakash in his article: “An Attempt to Trace the Origin of the Rituals of ʿĀshūrāʾ”, states the following regarding the origin of these practices: The flagellations were introduced into central and southern Iran, as well as into Iraq, only in the nineteenth century. This proposition is supported by the data provided by Shi’i biographies and Iraqi Shi`i oral history. The biographies identify Shaykh Mulla Agha `Abidal-Darbendi (d. 1868/9) as the first to introduce violent acts of self-flagellation into Tehran around the mid-nineteenth century. Darbendi is said to include in this work uncommon rituals, not to be found in other accepted Shi’i Imami writings on the commemoration of ‘Ashura.54 The relatively late appearance of flagellation in Iraq is also evident from Shi’i accounts. The Iraqi Shi’i mujtahid Muhammad Mahdi al-Qazwini is cited by Werner Ende as claiming around 1927 that the use of iron was initiated “about a century ago” by people not well versed in the rules of the Shari’a.55 Indeed, Iraqi Shi’i oral history traces the appearance of flagellation in Najaf and Karbala to the nineteenth century. It is related that the practice was imported to these cities by Shi’i Turks, who came to Karbala and Najaf on pilgrimage from the Caucasus or Azarbayjan.56 The author goes on to state that the Qizilbash, an extreme ghulat Turkish sect, seemingly introduced blood rituals to Imami Shias. He then points out that the Qizilbash took their flagellation rituals from some Christians. Therefore the Shia blood rituals most probably have a Christian origin. Sufi and Christian elements were fused in the rituals of the Qizilbash.62 As will be seen below, this was also evident in the flagellations, which reenacted the shedding of Husayn’s blood in a manner similar to the reenactment of the shedding of the blood of Christ among Christian Catholics. References: 1 An Article in a Shia media outlet entitled: Maruri bar Tarikh Takvin Majalis va Aeenhaye Azadari dar Iran by Mohsin Hassam Mazaheri, Akhbar Adiyan Magazine, number 18, Farvardin va Ordibehesht138 2 Abdullah Mastufi, Sharh Zendiganiye Man ya Tarikh Ijtemai va Idari Douran Ghajariyeh, v.1 and 3. 3 Ibrahim Haydari, The Tragedy of Karbala (tradjedi Karbala) translated into Farsi by Ali Mamouri,p.475 4 Kazem Dajili, Ashura fi al-Najaf wa Karbala, p.287; Mahmoud Darah, Jiyyat Iraqi min wara’ al-Bawabih al-Sawda’, p.24 5 Naqash, p.269 (quoting from: Administration Report of the Shamiyya Division, Great Britain) 1 Anytime an action is forbid with force without any kind of intellectual or cultural explanation given it will have an opposite effect. 2 Goftegu ba Sayyid Bahr al-Ulum piramoun Azadari Husseini, Nour Magazine, number 74, January 1997 3 Tradjedi Karbala, a conversation with Doctor Shakir Latif, 4,12,1996 4 Talib Ali Sharqi, al-najaf al-Ashraf Adatha wa Talidha |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 7:36am On Oct 10, 2016 |
It Gives Shia Islam a Gruesome and Hideous Image The word barbaric is an understatement. Barbaric people may be cruel and uncivilized, however they generally do not cut and mutilate their own bodies in extremely bloody public demonstrations. There is nothing else in the whole of existence, which gives the Shias such a bad reputation as these rituals do. Millions of dollars have been spent by the enemies of Shi’ism (and Islam as a whole) to ruin its image and to spread lies about it. However all those efforts are eclipsed by these unnatural actions that some Shias perform. It is not only non-Shias who are repulsed and disturbed by these rituals, many Shias are also extremely repulsed. It is ironic that Shias have had to struggle for centuries to counter false propaganda and to remove misconceptions about themselves; only to find that a group from amongst themselves heavily damages their reputation. The Wahhabis may falsely claim that Shias believe in another Quran, believe that Imam Ali (a) is God or believe that the wife of the Holy Prophet (S) committed adultery, however all of those are mere claims from insincere people without any supporting evidence. In contrast, the Shias who perform acts of bodily mutilation give ammunition to those who wish to malign the religion. Often, when people wish to mock and defame the Shias, they tend to show images of these blood shedding rituals. The mass media and the Internet are replete with these images. Type in the word ‘Ashura’ into a search engine and see the images that appear. Is this the first piece of information that a non-muslim must obtain about the struggle of Imam Hussain (a)? Did Imam Hussain (a) die only for his message to become immediately associated with this unsightly innovation? It is not surprising that many people are distressed by these rituals since the human brain is naturally averse to self-mutilation and finds blood repulsive due to its unhygienic nature. The bad image portrayed by acts such as Tatbir and Zanjeer is the primary reason given by the Maraja for their prohibition. Some of the promoters of blood flagellation astonishingly deny that the rituals are considered repulsive. To see the reality, they only need to read these comments made about blood flagellation by the readers of the Guardian Newspaper. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 10:35am On Oct 13, 2016 |
Humans are Naturally Repulsed by Self Harm and Blood Most human beings are naturally averse to acts of bodily harm and to the shedding of blood. It is not surprising that the human mind and body are usually repulsed by the thought of cutting the skin, since they have been designed to ensure self-preservation. Most human beings are also repulsed by the blood of others since it is unhygienic and entails a health hazard. They very thought of bodily mutilation or blood can repulse people, let alone having to witness these things. There are many people who also suffer from blood phobia and the sight of blood can cause them to feel extremely uncomfortable. Unfortunately many of the proponents of blood shedding do not seem to take into consideration this natural repulsion and unease felt by the majority of humanity. Even Shias who have been brought up in communities where blood rituals are prevalent, are repulsed by these activities. It is about time that blood flagellators put themselves into the shoes of those who find these rituals abhorrent and tried to understand why so many people are against these activities. It is an act of recklessness to innovate and openly practice a ritual in the name of Islam that is unhygienic and repulses so many people. Blood Rituals are a Health Hazard The mourning ceremonies which involve the congregational spilling of human blood via methods such as Tatbir and Zanjeer, are very unhygienic and are a health hazard. The ceremonies involve men striking themselves with blades, causing blood to spill all over the surrounding environment and often onto other mourners who have open wounds. Blood can carry some very dangerous pathogens including the following: * Hepatitis B (HBV). * Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV). * Hepatitis C (HCV). * Syphilis. * Malaria. * Brucellosis. * Babeosis. * Leptospirosis. * Arborviral Infections. * Relapsing Fever. * Creutzfeld-Jacobs Disease (Mad Cow disease). * Viral Hemorrahgic Fever (Ebola virus). Some of the above are deadly and have no known cure. Hepatitis B can survive on surfaces for up to several days, and in dried blood for up to a week. Blood mourning gatherings put people at risk to these and other dangerous diseases. It is almost impossible to impose good hygiene in these environments and individual blood mourners generally do not implement the any hygiene procedures. Blood is splattered around the environment, and the blades and other surfaces are not decontaminated. Some mourners also share blades. Some of these acts also carry the possibility of incurring other forms of harm, such as: infections to wounds, skeletal damage, damage to nerves & veins. There have also been a few reports of deaths due to these acts.
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| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by Empiree: 10:36pm On Oct 13, 2016 |
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| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 9:09am On Oct 14, 2016 |
FATWA FROM AYATULLAH ALI KHAMENEI Q14: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Ḥusayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muḥarram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi‘ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter? A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is ḥarām. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss. Q15: What is the shar‘ī criterion in determining physical or psychological damage? A: The criterion is noticeable and considerable harm judged by common sense. Q16: Is hitting oneself with swords ḥalāl if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwā in this regard universal? A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible. http://leader.ir/en/content/16350/Rules-of-Muharram-month |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by MrOlai: 11:26am On Oct 14, 2016 |
AlBaqir: @bolded ...INFALLIBLES.....  Infallibles ko, Instandibles ni! You shia people are jokers! Nobody is infallible! Not even the Prophets and Messengers of Allah(SWT)! Only Allah(SWT) in infallible! Perfection belongs only to Allah(SWT)! Yeye dey smell! 2 Likes |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 12:42pm On Oct 14, 2016 |
MrOlai: # The more you talk, the more you expose your ignorance. Ismat literally means protection. In Shia terminology it means 'A special grace (lutf) of Allah to a person which enables the person to abstain from sins by his own free will. Such a person is called Maasum. This lutf does not make the Maasum person incapable of committing sin. He refrains from sins and mistakes by his own power and will. # Nabi used the word masoom: Imam an-Nasai documents: It was narrated from Abu Saeed that the Messenger of Allah said: "Allah never sends a prophet or appoints a Khalifah but he has two groups of advisers: A group that tells him to do good and a group that tells him to do evil and urges him to do it. And the one who is truly protected (masoom, وَالْمَعْصُومُ ) is the one who is protected by Allah, the Mighty and Sublime." Grade : Sahih (Darussalam) Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4202 In-book reference : Book 39, Hadith 54 English translation : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4207 www.sunnah.com/nasai/39 # Concerning Nabi and his household, Allah says: "...Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you absolutely." {surah al-Ahzab:33} |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by MrOlai: 1:03pm On Oct 14, 2016 |
AlBaqir: Taqiyyah(Deception) as usual! I don't have your time abeg! 1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 1:42pm On Oct 14, 2016 |
MrOlai: Toor. It is only when you are cornered that you always play your "Taqiyah" card. You see clear evidence yet you deny. Its obvious your ignorance and fanaticism has no redemption. 1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by BetaThings: 7:17am On Oct 15, 2016 |
https://m.reddit.com/r/shia/comments/3qx53j/self_flagellation/ Tatbir.org is a website filled with many, many mistakes in the fatwa section, I would advise caution to anyone who uses it. It has wrongly labelled some Ulama (scholars) as having have had forbidden Tatbir, when in reality they either permit and/or encourage it, do not have a fatwa permitting or forbidding it, or it is unsure their true stance on Tatbir. I would recommend taking tatbir.org with a pinch of salt, considering the great blunders on that website. The issue of Tatbir and other such more extreme forms of Azaa' are a very contentious issue among the Shi'a, and while I personally adhere to the fatwa of Syed Rohani on this issue (who allowed it - because Sistani has no fatwa I do Ruju' to Rohani), I understand that there are Ulama who forbid it, and Shi'a who follow these scholars |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by BetaThings: 7:19am On Oct 15, 2016 |
AlBaqir: Actually what you shias say to Sunnis online is different from you believe and do in reality when you are in your hussainiyat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH3rRSy_PA8 You shias often tell us how much you love us sunnis, that we are your brothers, Shiism is peaceful, only the wahhabis are the problem etc But we know that lurking in your hearts is the most inveterate hatred for us sunnis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CYxa6icenI 1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by Nobody: 7:50am On Oct 15, 2016 |
BetaThings: subhanAllaah!! these people are the most dangerous of all the sects, they are never truthful, which is why the "mainstream" Sunnis see the "wahhabis" as extremist when engaging them, whereas the shia intention is not good even to the "mainstream" Muslims. smh 2 Likes |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 8:24am On Oct 15, 2016 |
| Derailers dotcom. # As usual you are ready to derail this thread. Una no dey shame? # Perhaps when you are ready to disprove the OP on tatbir citing references from Shi'i known books of tafasir, sihah ahadith then I can take you serious. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by tintingz(m): 7:47pm On Oct 15, 2016 |
Round around it goes. The Sunni vs Shia infinite war that will one day kaboom this religion. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by Empiree: 9:19pm On Oct 15, 2016 |
tintingz:you know it could be easily resolved if people would cool off. I'm really being tired of it. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by tintingz(m): 11:14pm On Oct 15, 2016 |
Empiree:I don't think so, when we have leaders supporting this sects so-called war. I just read how shias are being killed in Kaduna. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by udatso: 12:57am On Oct 16, 2016 |
BetaThings:Subhanallah. Wow  1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 8:23am On Oct 16, 2016 |
udatso: # It is very unfortunate you also wish to join derailers. This thread is opened to discuss tatbir and I am convinced those who accused "shia" of sanctioning this forbidden act only do out of ignorance and sectarianism. Anyway I like to wake your consciousness on the above videos. # Hateful speeches, hatred, killings etc between both schools is evident. Here's one example out of many from the Wahabi state: Saudi TV Host Abdulellah Al-Dosari Celebrates Death of Iranian Pilgrims in Hajj Stampede in Mecca. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGOGrwnf3lQ - # "Shi'a" Yasir Habib and his Shirazi cultists: Those are the persons in the video. Kindly read my very short note on them: https://www.nairaland.com/1903995/religious-authority-sistani-condemns-cursing You can read about Yasir Habib's biography here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Al-Habib # In the above bio, there is also a write up on his criticism by various Shi'i mar'ja. # If you think Yasir Habib only accuses Sunnism (calling them the Bakris) and its respected icons, then watch this video - his takfirism of Shi'i ulama (the Batris, according to him): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSgu7T20KQ # Mind you, Yasir Habib following the dictates of Shirazi cult family allows tatbir. This the reason you see that only late Ayatullah Sadiq Shirazi allowed this disgraceful act of tatbir. See the attached picture. Note: Shia do not follow dead scholar. # Using this silly thing (Yasir Habib) as hujjah against Shia is like using ISIS etc as hujjah against Ahlu sunnah. 1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by sino(m): 9:12am On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir: I agree with the website that the primary reason for prohibition of tatbir, is basically because of the bad image the Shi'as would be portrayed, you know it kinda make them look like savages, and that is bad publicity, not necessarily because the act in itself is a bid'ah, and far from what Islam teaches! Can you believe these guys?! AlBaqir wants us to believe that only Ayatollah Shirazi permitted tatbir, according to one of the images up there, but I found a very interesting fatwa of other Aytollahs, permitting tatbir, perhaps AlBaqir, would help us understand... The following are the Fatawa of 19 of the most Eminent Maraje’ of the Shi'a world regarding the TA’ZIA or AZADARI for Imam Hussain peace be upon him [the list below is not exhaustive, but it only enlists some of the eminent Maraje'.] Al-Imam al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery The Founder of the current Hawzah in the holy city of Qum. “The hitting of swords on the heads (causing bleeding) is alright (allowed) provided there is no harm to the person doing this. Furthermore no one has the right to prohibit this (hitting the head with sword). In fact all kinds of TA’ZIAH – mourning – for SEYYED AL-SHUHADA’ – Imam Hussain – may our souls be sacrificed for him, are MUSTAHAB – desirable deeds.” The above Fatwa by al-Imam al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery was endorsed and signed by the following eminent Maraje’: • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Muhammad al-Araki, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Shahab-el-Deen al-Mar’ashi al-Najafi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Hassan al-Tabataba’e al-Qummi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad al-Waheedi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Mirza Jawaad al-Tabrizi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Saadiq al-Rouhani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma Muhammad Mahdi al-Lankaroudi, And many other Maraje’ and eminent scholars . . . Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini, The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf. “There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face). This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).” The above Fatwa by al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini was endorsed and signed by the following eminent Maraje’: • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Mohsen al-Hakim, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Kaadhem al-Shari’atMadari, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abd-el-A’la al-Sabzewary, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abul-Qassim al-Kho’i, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Ali al-Hussaini al-Seestani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Saadiq al-Rouhani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Mirza Jawaad al-Tabrizi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Hussain al-Waheed al-Khurasani, And many other Maraje’ and eminent scholars . . . Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Kho’i The former leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf. Question: Is there any problem with causing the bleeding of the head – TATBIR – as it is practiced, to express one’s grief about the martyrdom of our Imam Hussain peace be upon him, assuming there is going to be no permanent harm? Answer: There is no problem with that, given the assumption made in the question, and Allah knows best. Question: You stated that there is no problem in causing the bleeding of the head – known as TATBIR – if it does not lead to harm. It is said that it is not more than a permissible act, then can TATBIR be MUSTAHAB – desirable – if the intention was the upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er – signs of Allah – and sympathy with the Ahl-ul-Bayt, peace be upon them? Answer: Most probably Allah Almighty would give thawab – reward (the individual) – for sympathising with the Ahl-ul-Bayt if the intention is sincere. Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Seestani The current leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf. Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him? Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection. Question: What is the ruling regarding wearing black, and chest beating when commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him, as well as other infallible Imams peace be upon them? Answer: This is permissible, and in fact this is regarded as one of the best means of seeking nearness to Allah, since it is upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er of Allah Almighty. [This is a reference to the Qur’anic Ayah 22:32. – translator.] 1 Like |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by sino(m): 9:30am On Oct 16, 2016 |
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Imam al-Seyyid al-Shirazi Question: Some individuals say that I do not see shedding my tears as enough to express my grief for Imam Hussain (AS), his household and his followers on the day of Ashura. So is hitting myself with sword and injuring myself is allowed? Answer: The Hussaini Sha’a’er, including TATBIR, are some of the RAAJIH issues. TATBIR is a MUSTAHAB deed, unless it leads to death, loss of limb, or loss of faculties. (RAAJIH means MUSTAHAB that could become WAJIB depending on the circumstances - translator.). Question: What is your opinion regarding hitting the head with sword – TATBIR – on the day of Ashura whether or not it harms the individual? Answer: The most common and widely known opinion of the Fuqaha (scholars) is that the desirability (of TATBIR) is in it not being extremely harmful. Question: If one engages in the program of TA’ZIAH for Imam Hussain (AS), and goes on to serve the program of TA’ZIAH but does not do TATBIR, is he regarded as a sinner, who deserves to be humiliated? Answer: TATBIR is a desirable act, and a MUKALLAF – i.e. one who has reached the adolescence age and is duty bound – may forsake a desirable act. It is not allowed to humiliate a Mu’min, and also one who does not do TATBIR may not humiliate or insult others, or accuse them (of false things). Question: What is your opinion regarding the reports that Lady Zaynab (AS), when she saw the head of her brother Imam Hussain peace be upon him, being paraded in public hit her forehead on the bar of the carriage she was travelling in, causing bleeding to flow from beneath her veil, which was visible to onlookers who witnessed the event? Answer: Yes that is proven. {Some of the famous references, which confirm the above report, are as follows: • Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114, • Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238, • Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112, • Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474, • Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478, • Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18. Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.} Source: http://imamshirazi.com/tatbir%20fatawa.html |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by udatso: 10:21am On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir:I am sorry for derailing your thread. It wasn't intentional. The videos were just shocking. And to ensure that I don't derail the thread anymore, I wont speak anymore of them. That said, what do you have to say about sino's posts. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 12:10pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
udatso: # To sino post, unfortunately his only reference is the same al-shirazi website I have castigated. Is that an evidence? # The two leading maraji of about 90% Shia worldwide are Ayatullah Ali Sistani and Ayatullah Ali Khameini. They both have official websites where their books and fatwas can be checked. They both declared tatbir haram based on many facts top of which is it does not exist in the Quran, sunnah of the Nabi and the Ahl al-bayt.. Is this not enough for any rational mind? Where are the books or websites to check the veracity of various 19 Shia scholars fatwas? Shirazi website, sino submit. # Sino said he loves that tatbir.org because it states the act gives Shia bad image. Is that the only reason states by the website? # The truth is there are lots of fake Ayatullah, Mufti, Sheiks and Mullas. Unfortunately they have followers who follow their teachings and fatawa. If you are to judge majority Shia ithna Ashariyah, you judge based on the teachings and fatawa of those two leading maraji. Shia do not follow a dead Ayatullah. And in a situation where you have two Ayatullah in a locality, you follow the most knowledgeable and most pious. # Personally I follow the jurisdiction of Ayatullah Khameini. Don't give me condemned Shirazi family/cult in Yasir Habib and his cohorts. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by sino(m): 1:19pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir: Question: Is it permissible to wail and cry loudly as well as beat one’s head and face in mourning for Imam Hussein, peace be upon him? Answer: There is no problem in it . Question: I would like to ask your opinion about taking off the shirts in mourning processions. Is it permissible for men to take off their shirts while beating their chests? Answer: It is not haram (forbidden) by itself. http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01125/ You could see that the aspect of bleeding as been stylishly removed, perhaps AlBaqir can point to a direct source where he condemns tatbir, I do not see Sistani condemning it here... I was wandering why you haven't posted any reference to this scholars that clearly states that this tatbir is haram.. So once your maraji is dead, his fatwa also becomes invalid because...?! is it only their fatwa, or their books too shouldn't be relied upon?! Let me know now before I start quoting books of your dead scholars o... 2 Likes |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 5:34pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
^Hey yah sorry. Chest beating and taking off shirt never add up to blood ritual via body flagellation. # And I need to add: The word "Haram" simply means it is legislatedly forbidden by Allah or His Nabi. No scholar has the right to declare anything Haram which Allah or His Nabi never declared. Hence a good jurist should be careful using the word "halal" and "haram". |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 5:38pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir: MrOlai, you can clearly see your brother sino posted the same message copied from shirazi website here. So I don't need to comment same over there after all I have left that thread for good. So, please stop mentioning my name. # Empiree there is no ijma in tatbir o. Kindly read my quote up there ^ |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by Empiree: 5:48pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir:Geez!, I am really getting confused about this topic. Seems there are multiple threads about this. I just left a comment on the like. This subject really got me confused a lot. I dont want to comment on this anymore to avoid posting in wrong thread. Yes, to be fair, it is not ijma. I see that actually and i respect that. That's what i said in my last post in this thread https://www.nairaland.com/3406280/2016-ashura-day-shia-slash/1#50251803 That's really my point all along. Those opposing view (ulama) just need to be more assertive against it. That's all. |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by MrOlai: 5:56pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
AlBaqir: AlBaqir: See Taqiyya in 3D! 2 Likes |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by Nobody: 6:17pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
MrOlai: This lie pass 3D. Uncountable D 2 Likes |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 7:01pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
Empiree: |
| Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by AlBaqir(m): 7:25pm On Oct 16, 2016 |
Empiree:# To your last statement. Even Nabi was told he's just a warner. He cannot force people to believe. # To your last statement: Like I said earlier, perhaps once the Ahlu Sunnah ulama succeeded in curbing the atrocities of ISIS, BOKO HARAM, AL-QAEDA etc who no doubt claimed to be Ahlu sunnah, then I think Shia Ulama can curb tatbir. * Imam of Masjid al-Haram in Saudi Arabia prayed fervently for their brothers fighting "the enemies" in Syria, Yemen, and Iraq whereas others Sunni Ulama condemned these terrorists. How does that sound? 1 Like |
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