A mother's love has been described as one of the tenderest and most bewitching feeling that humans are capable of expressing. Who do mothers imitate when they display such unselfish and self sacrificing love for their children? I dare say that such love barely even comes close to the love that God has for all of us.

Now lets say you see a mother burning her child's hand in fire because the child did something wrong. How would you view such a mother? Would you think well of her? A lot of people will be quick to call her a wicked woman...

Now if a mother can not naturally burn her childs hand in fire, is it fair for us to believe that God can burn his own children - the works of his own hands continously in fire forever and ever and not even feel the slightest bit of pity for them so as to stop it?

One of the greatest gift of God to man is critical thinking ability. As children we were all exposed to some certain doctrines...but remaining dogmatic and sticking to whatever we were told as children without carrying out our own research or thinking for ourselves will be unfair usage of our thinking abilities. On this issue of eternal torment, apparently we got things wrong somewhere. Suffice to say that the one thing that can help us all is an understanding of what the bible really means when it says the lake of fire.

After a careful consideration of Revelation chapter 20. I strongly believe that the lake of fire into which the evildoers will be cast simply refers to a state of non existence. Meaning that they will cease to exist. For example Rev 20:14(KJV) says that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". Since death and hell are also going to be cast into the lake of fire, it simply means that they will not exist anymore for we all know death and hell can not burn literally.

Lastly Romans 6:23(KJV) says that "the wages of sin is death". So if one pays the price of sin in death, one wonders, what then is the purpose of eternal torment by God? Can eternal torment really be associated with God's pleasant personality? Remember the bible calls him "love.

May we all continue to grow in God's love and accurate knowledge.

well said

protocoll:
well said

Thank You.

protocoll:
well said

Thank You.

...

@NLEFCC If you were God and you could have a vivid panoramic view of the deeds of men then you will be careful to compare the relationship between God and man with the relationship between mother and child.

Some errors are evident in your supposed accurate knowledge . First off, children, as depicted in your analogy, are people under the authority, control and care of their mothers. Now every mother knows that children at different stages of existence are treated differently. If a baby does something wrong, the mother recognizes its ignorance and tries to fend off the dangerous consequence of the wrongdoing of that child. If that baby grows up and can learn from punishment and rewards, good parents use these two to ensure that wrongdoing is prevented and the attendant consequences of wrongdoing are averted. However, when this child grows up to recognize responsibility and the consequences of actions, a good mother makes it realize that punishment and rewards are a natural and supernatural component of the universe that fosters harmony and balance. At this juncture, the child is expected to have learned the system of punishment and reward from its mother and the mother realizes that the punishments and rewards, for all deeds meted in reality, are by far more severe and there is little she can do about it.

Now a person who has persistently failed to recognize the consequences of evildoing but willingly and with all sense of glee and joy chooses to be evil to all but himself will cause a great imbalance in the universe if it is not punished accordingly. Like I said, it is easy for you say all you have said because you are not looking at mankind from the point of view of GOD!

I will give you an instance from everyday life...Nigeria is home to ritual killers and several camps have been uncovered where their macabre rituals with humans are conducted. Now imagine Mr. A. had a son, the only son, and he was kidnapped by Mr. B who drained his blood, hacked his body to tiny pieces, made barbecue out of his flesh, had a feast with human flesh and exchanged the poor boy's blood for money (millions of dollars). Now would it be justice for you to kill Mr. B's son who happens to be a policeman that hunts ritual killers down? Would it be justice to just make the evildoer vanish into thin air after he has plunged Mr. A and Mrs. A into a level of depression that ultimately kills them? Now imagine that all over the world, people are being killed for rituals at the rate of 100 people per day and you, in the position of a GOD, are a witness to all the killings and resulting mourning, funerals, suicides and depression?

My question is how would you judge such evildoers, if you were in the position of GOD! We do not consider GOD at all. We have warped ideas of GOD. GOD is emotional too. GOD feels to. GOD sees all the young girls trafficked daily. GOD sees the wars started just so that firms that sell bullets, guns and bombs can make obscene profits. GOD sees all the women and children dying daily from war over land, territory and resources. GOD sees all the innocent children murdered daily by aborting mothers. GOD sees the weak being cheated daily. GOD sees how the earth He was once created beautifully has now become ugly and scarred. GOD sees the brothers of common descent becoming racist. GOD sees the how children are turned to soldiers and made to kill their parents as part of their training.

GOD sees how evil has become a culture and He hears the cries of victimized souls crying to Him for justice...yet you say such a GOD cannot create a place known as the lake of fire for all those who ruined the earth. If you, were in the place of GOD you would have incinerated this planet centuries ago and given no one the chance to change!

efficiencie:
@NLEFCC If you were God and you could have a vivid panoramic view of the deeds of men then you will be careful to compare the relationship between God and man with the relationship between mother and child.

Some errors are evident in your supposed accurate knowledge . First off, children, as depicted in your analogy, are people under the authority, control and care of their mothers. Now every mother knows that children at different stages of existence are treated differently. If a baby does something wrong, the mother recognizes its ignorance and tries to fend off the dangerous consequence of the wrongdoing of that child. If that baby grows up and can learn from punishment and rewards, good parents use these two to ensure that wrongdoing is prevented and the attendant consequences of wrongdoing are averted. However, when this child grows up to recognize responsibility and the consequences of actions, a good mother makes it realize that punishment and rewards are a natural and supernatural component of the universe that fosters harmony and balance. At this juncture, the child is expected to have learned the system of punishment and reward from its mother and the mother realizes that the punishments and rewards, for all deeds meted in reality, are by far more severe and there is little she can do about it.

Now a person who has persistently failed to recognize the consequences of evildoing but willingly and with all sense of glee and joy chooses to be evil to all but himself will cause a great imbalance in the universe if it is not punished accordingly. Like I said, it is easy for you say all you have said because you are not looking at mankind from the point of view of GOD!

I will give you an instance from everyday life...Nigeria is home to ritual killers and several camps have been uncovered where their macabre rituals with humans are conducted. Now imagine Mr. A. had a son, the only son, and he was kidnapped by Mr. B who drained his blood, hacked his body to tiny pieces, made barbecue out of his flesh, had a feast with human flesh and exchanged the poor boy's blood for money (millions of dollars). Now would it be justice for you to kill Mr. B's son who happens to be a policeman that hunts ritual killers down? Would it be justice to just make the evildoer vanish into thin air after he has plunged Mr. A and Mrs. A into a level of depression that ultimately kills them? Now imagine that all over the world, people are being killed for rituals at the rate of 100 people per day and you, in the position of a GOD, are a witness to all the killings and resulting mourning, funerals, suicides and depression?

My question is how would you judge such evildoers, if you were in the position of GOD! We do not consider GOD at all. We have warped ideas of GOD. GOD is emotional too. GOD feels to. GOD sees all the young girls trafficked daily. GOD sees the wars started just so that firms that sell bullets, guns and bombs can make obscene profits. GOD sees all the women and children dying daily from war over land, territory and resources. GOD sees all the innocent children murdered daily by aborting mothers. GOD sees the weak being cheated daily. GOD sees how the earth He was once created beautifully has now become ugly and scarred. GOD sees the brothers of common descent becoming racist. GOD sees the how children are turned to soldiers and made to kill their parents as part of their training.

GOD sees how evil has become a culture and He hears the cries of victimized souls crying to Him for justice...yet you say such a GOD cannot create a place known as the lake of fire for all those who ruined the earth. If you, were in the place of GOD you would have incinerated this planet centuries ago and given no one the chance to change!

Correct! I appreciate your critical thinking and analogy. So yes i may have put an end to all of these vices centuries ago if i had the ability to do it, but i dont have that ability. The only one who can, our most powerful God, has not done it, which reveals one of his endearing personalities. He actually tells us in Ezekiel 33:11 that he takes no delight even in the death of a wicked person.

I cant help using the mother child comparison as you will agree with me that nowhere else in physical nature can you see a better example of love. However no mother can even love her child as much as God loves us. Can a mother voluntarily sacrifice the life of her child? Well God did that for us. Granted God had the power to bring his son back to life eventually, but he had to bear the pains of watching his dear son go through turture and hardship while restraining himself from exercising his power to end the ordeal. What more? For three(3) days his son was actually dead, not in existence, neither in heaven nor on earth. Why did God allow all of these things to happen? LOVE! A love for humans that to this day is beyond our comprehension.

I completely go with the purnishment and reward system that loving mothers employ to instill proper behavioral tendencies in their children, but even here you will agree with me that some purnishments are out of line. Let me give you a real life example. A certain child was particularly notorious in the city i grew up. One day he stole his mothers money and she had to invite the military men to discipline the boy and get him to return the money. While turturing the boy one of the military officer brought out his gun, shot him and he immediately fell to the ground. The mother's response was spontenous and she grabbed the military officer by his uniform screaming that she never asked him to shoot her child. I hope you can get my point here? A loving mother would not employ some cruel methods of purnishment no matter how bad her child is. God loves humans too much, so it would not be out of line to say that even though he has all the power, and maybe even reason to do it, he will not purnish us in a cruel manner continously for ever and ever.

You know i would really appreciate your view of Rev 20:14

NLEFCC:


Correct! I appreciate your critical thinking and analogy. So yes i may have put an end to all of these vices centuries ago if i had the ability to do it, but i dont have that ability. The only one who can, our most powerful God, has not done it, which reveals one of his endearing personalities. He actually tells us in Ezekiel 33:11 that he takes no delight even in the death of a wicked person.

I cant help using the mother child comparison as you will agree with me that nowhere else in physical nature can you see a better example of love. However no mother can even love her child as much as God loves us. Can a mother voluntarily sacrifice the life of her child? Well God did that for us. Granted God had the power to bring his son back to life eventually, but he had to bear the pains of watching his dear son go through turture and hardship while restraining himself from exercising his power to end the ordeal. What more? For three(3) days his son was actually dead, not in existence, neither in heaven nor on earth. Why did God allow all of these things to happen? LOVE! A love for humans that to this day is beyond our comprehension.

I completely go with the purnishment and reward system that loving mothers employ to instill proper behavioral tendencies in their children, but even here you will agree with me that some purnishments are out of line. Let me give you a real life example. A certain child was particularly notorious in the city i grew up. One day he stole his mothers money and she had to invite the military men to discipline the boy and get him to return the money. While turturing the boy one of the military officer brought out his gun, shot him and he immediately fell to the ground. The mother's response was spontenous and she grabbed the military officer by his uniform screaming that she never asked him to shoot her child. I hope you can get my point here? A loving mother would not employ some cruel methods of purnishment no matter how bad her child is. God loves humans too much, so it would not be out of line to say that even though he has all the power, and maybe even reason to do it, he will not purnish us in a cruel manner continously for ever and ever.

You know i would really appreciate your view of Rev 20:14

That was a child for goodness sake. That was stealing her mothers money...We are talking about the Tutsi massacre, hundreds of thousands of men, women and children killed because of what. We are talking about the Chechnya massacre. We are talking about the Biafran massacre. We are talking about the massacre of the Jews by Hitler. Check the list on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_events_named_massacres and see how much innocent blood this earth has drunk from man's hand...You can never compare the stirring of water in a tea cup with the waves of the Atlantic!

Now let me give you a little exegesis. After the LORD destroyed the earth and its inhabitants with water save all that were in Noah's ark, he vowed never again to do as long as the earth exists despite the evil nature of man (Genesis 8;21-22). However ask yourself, what made a loving GOD come to the point of wiping out all life?


Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:11-12
Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

These were GOD's conditions. First the wickedness of men was so great that the only thing makind thought of was evil, evil and more evil. The earth was corrupted by man's violence. All flesh had corrupted their way on earth. Disorder was the god of this world then. Man and beast violated the divine natural and supernatural order entrenched by GOD in the beginning. This made GOD wipe out all life save those that found grace in the sight of GOD.

Now GOD kept his promise of not destroying all life like He did in the time Noah but did man keep his promise of not sinning? No. Sodom and Gomorrah took over the sinning mantle. Sodom and Gomorrah sinned to the point that the voices of the innocent cried to GOD for justice. However GOD still was willing to pardon them, GOD being omnipotent knew of their evil but He choose to verify the veracity of the cries for justice by the victimized innocents...but Sodom and Gomorrah proved that they hated righteousness and loved evil as ALL the men of the city both old and young attempted to rape the angels that came to Lots residence in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Scriptural proof:


(ESV) Gen 18:20-21
Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."

(ISV) Genesis 19:1-5
The two angels entered Sodom at sunset while Lot was sitting in the gate area of the city. When Lot saw them, he got up, greeted them, bowed low with his face to the ground, and said, "Look my lords, please come inside your servant's house, wash your feet, and spend the night. Then you can get up early and be on your way." But they responded, "No, we would rather spend the night in the town square." But Lot kept urging them strongly, so they turned aside and entered his house. He prepared a feast and baked unleavened flat bread for them, and they ate.
Before they could lay down, all the men of Sodom and its outskirts, both young and old, surrounded the house. They called out to Lot and asked, "Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"

The conditions for total annihilation was present were. The men of this city were all wicked sinners. They had all corrupted their ways on earth. The imaginations of their heart was evil continually. Not a single soul among them was willing to change and be a good person. They were all evil.

What was the consequence that followed from a loving GOD on Sodom and Gomorrah after they had recorded this amazing feat of unprecendented evil.


Genesis 19:24-25

Then the LORD rained sulfur and fire out of the sky from the LORD on Sodom and Gomorrah, overthrowing those cities, all of the plain, and everyone who lived in the cities. He also destroyed the plants that grew out of the ground.

They were judged, and their judgment was by fire and sulphur...Was this also figurative? Did GOD simply make them disappear? No. GOD's loving nature, makes him a GOD of justice and the avenger of the blood of the innocent.


Revelation 21:8

But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

So for those who are hanging on the belief that after committing all the evils of life, you will get no punishment rather you will just vanish...well go on sinning and go on being evil! At the end of time we will know if that lake really burns with fire and sulphur (Revelations 22:11).

efficiencie:


So for those who are hanging on the belief that after committing all the evils of life, you will get no punishment rather you will just vanish...well go on sinning and go on being evil! At the end of time we will know if that lake really burns with fire and sulphur (Revelations 22:11).

Fear mongering does not work otherwise the whole world should have been converted by now.

The wages of sin is DEATH , pure and simple , anything else is adding to the word of God or trying to force scripture to fit into your preconceived notions.

@ efficiencie

Sometimes I wonder. The Lord is omniscient yes? He knew these things were going to happen. Why then were we created? Okay lets assume he created us for his pleasure. Why then were we given free will? Its almost as if he wants us going to hell.

Hell! What can i say?...it. is an invention of the roman church to keep people in check..the new testament is also a roman production..it has nothing to do with what the jews believed as contained in their Tanakh...to them, God is responsible for both evil and good...Isaiah45:7, Lamentationn 3:38, Amos 2:26..,.,the devil only does what God tells him to do as demonstrated in the story of Job..
There is nothing the devil does that God wont know about.their salvation is knowing why God allowed it to happen and also learning what thr evil has come to teach and then save themselve from it...

frosbel2:


Fear mongering does not work otherwise the whole world should have been converted by now.

The wages of sin is DEATH , pure and simple , anything else is adding to the word of God or trying to force scripture to fit into your preconceived notions.

I am simply stating the scriptures...and not making anyone afraid! Anyone who is afraid must be guilty... and that is why cowards have their place in the lake of fire and sulphur

efficiencie:


I am simply stating the scriptures...and not making anyone afraid! Anyone who is afraid must be guilty... and that is why cowards have their place in the lake of fire and sulphur

Nonsense, you are parroting scripture like a Robot without understanding. Ask God for wisdom.

The lake of fire is simply a metaphor for the final and complete destruction of the wicked after the final judgement, even death itself and hell ( hades or grave ) will be thrown into this lake for complete anihilation. This means that after the final judgement, death will no longer exist.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54

"He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken" - Isaiah 25:8

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

DEATH WILL BE DESTROYED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, DEATH CANNOT EXIST EVER AGAIN OTHERWISE YOU ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR. THE SECOND DEATH IS DEATH , INSTANT DEATH NOT DEATH FOREVER AND FOREVER IN YOUR MYTHICAL HELL.

Ask God for wisdom and stop following MEN.

frosbel2:


Nonsense, you are parroting scripture like a Robot without understanding. Ask God for wisdom.

The lake of fire is simply a metaphor for the final and complete destruction of the wicked after the final judgement, even death itself and hell ( hades or grave ) will be thrown into this lake for complete anihilation. This means that after the final judgement, death will no longer exist.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54

"He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken" - Isaiah 25:8

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

DEATH WILL BE DESTROYED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, DEATH CANNOT EXIST EVER AGAIN OTHERWISE YOU ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR. THE SECOND DEATH IS DEATH , INSTANT DEATH NOT DEATH FOREVER AND FOREVER IN YOUR MYTHICAL HELL.

Ask God for wisdom and stop following MEN.

parroting scripture like a robot ...and you are what? Talking scriptures like the HOLYGHOST abi! Well, I love one attribute of the truth, it stands the test of time. If the lake of fire and sulphur is figurative, just as the fire and sulphur that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah was probably figurative as well, time will tell...However, whether the lake of fire and sulphur is an exact location or a mere figurative expression, those who trust in the words of GOD must follow peace with all men and holiness without which no man shall see the LORD (Hebrew 12:14).

Funnily enough, I wonder if you see the LORD GOD as a figurative expression as well. The scriptures may well be another poetic literature filled with fables, stories, some moral norms and nothing more...so what we call scriptures may well be one huge figurative expression...

efficiencie:


.


Then the LORD rained sulfur and fire out of the sky from the LORD on Sodom and Gomorrah, overthrowing those cities, all of the plain, and everyone who lived in the cities. He also destroyed the plants that grew out of the ground. [/color]

@efficiencie

Have you read Jude verse 7? It says that Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities nearby suffer the purnishment of eternal fire.

The fire that destroyed those cities ceased burning thousands of years ago but its effect has lasted down to this day. So in that sense one can agree that the fire is everlasting. Do you not agree?

I am still hoping to get your explanation of Rev 20:14. If really its not talking about a state of non existence, how can death and the grave be cast into a literal fire?

Lastly remember what God told Adam after sinning? He simply said that Adam's purnishment was that he would return to the dust out of which he was taking. Meaning that rather than live forever he was going to die. Thats why the bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is everlasting life.