9jaganja:

Nice thread!!!!

Same goes with politics and other aspects of human civilization. We have republicans and democrats. If the democrats come up with a good idea, the republicans always tries to shoot it down without even checking how good it is. Same in Nigeria, Igbos vs Hausa vs Yoruba vs many others. If an Igbo man says something very important and true, they look at it through tribal/religious spects instead of critically think about what he or she has said. No idea is perfect but some better than others. If a pastor says 1 +1=2 many will jump on the tribal/religious bandwagon before accepting 1 + 1= 2. It beats me how people gets to thinking this way. I might be a male slut and jump from girls to girls but if I say loving someone is very important, many will bag on the fact that I'm a Giovanni Casanova before thinking about what I've said.

I think Philosophy should be made a high school course so more people will get the blessings of logical and critical thinking.

The tribal/religious bandwagon is another reason for our lack of critical thinking skills (tribal/religious bandwagon are themselves, symptoms of something else).

I second the teaching of philosophy. We actually went a bit farther than that and studied logic at my secondary school; were interesting arguments were entartained such as, "God is everywhere",  "therefore, God does not need to walk around, therefore God has no need for legs". I think if you try such an argument with some of our religious folk, you will get burnt.

well read my post above,i put it more clearly

u asked if its cultural,and i debunked it by giving u specific examples of how our culture is very much in tune with critical thinking

This is an absurd generalization. Idea sharing and dialogue can take place anywhere--- both online and in person--- they are not exclusive of each other.

i-------and the quote below is not?come on now,at least i give u a rational reason why talk is cheap and curt online
i
i u are yet to seriously try to defend that statement with some evidence or rational reasoning
v

Engaging in dialogue is very unpopular in most Nigerian communities

Beaf:

The tribal/religious bandwagon is another reason for our lack of critical thinking skills (tribal/religious bandwagon are themselves, symptoms of something else).

I second the teaching of philosophy. We actually went a bit farther than that and studied logic at my secondary school; were interesting arguments were entartained such as, "God is everywhere",  "therefore, God does not need to walk around, therefore God has no need for legs". I think if you try such an argument with some of our religious folk, you will get burnt.

I already put my foot down that I'm not debating religion with Nigerians again. No matter how much invalid their arguments are they still hold on to them.  I think the absence of critical think is the reason we have tribal/religious conflicts but if it's a result of something else then that thing must have lacked good reasoning as well.

I already put my foot down that I'm not debating religion with Nigerians again. No matter how much invalid their arguments are they still hold on to them. I think the absence of critical think is the reason we have tribal/religious conflicts but if it's a result of something else then that thing must have lacked good reasoning as well.

try debating religion with a southern baptist redneck texan,or a mullah from pakistan,i dont think its a nigerian thing at all

@paddy_lo

There is nothing wrong with our traditional culture(s) regarding critical thought. It is a problem of the individual; for the average joe, an argument on the street is something to be negotiated with utmost care and the fear of God, lest blows suddenly rain down out of the blue.

Away from the Online World, some practical examples of the areas in which we lack critical thought in governance are;
[list]
[li]Solar energy. Despite being situated close to the equator, we don't see it as an easy energy solution; yet those in cold climates are doing the most they can to harness it.[/li]
[li]Oil and gas. We have sold 100% of our gas supplies until 2016, so that there is no gas for any local power stations.[/li]
[/list]

Away from the Online World, some practical examples of the areas in which we lack critical thought in governance are;
Solar energy. Despite being situated close to the equator, we don't see it as an easy energy solution; yet those in cold climates are doing the most they can to harness it.
Oil and gas. We have sold 100% of our gas supplies until 2016, so that there is no gas for any local power stations.

the above can be put down to general incompetence and corruption by a few in govt,and not the whole nation

paddy_lo:

try debating religion with a southern baptist redneck texan,or a mullah from pakistan,i dont think its a nigerian thing at all

I never said it's a Nigerian thing. I actually meant to say Nigerians on NL. And about the Texans thing, you won't believe how much of them are atheist. You just won't believe. Many think they are racist and bigots in the South but I find them hospitable. I think they deserve that term Southern hospitality. Over a pint of beer, trust me a redneck will become a brother.

ill give u a few from america

up until 2008,even though they imported about 50% of oil for domestic use,they still gave out tax credits for buying SUVs and gas guzzlers,instead of encouraging E.Vs,or renewable powered vehicles

and we all know about the war that was to be over in a month or two and cost no more than $200bln,now into the 6th yr and costing over a trillion dollars at last count

again u cant mould your facts to fit your conclusion

Over a pint of beer, trust me a redneck will become a brother.

ill pass on that one,ill urge u to go watch or read about the hidden race war in new orleans in the aftermath of hurricane katrina

but i digress

I never said it's a Nigerian thing. I actually meant to say Nigerians on NL.

so maybe we have a point of intersection,cause my arguement is that this is mostly an online phenomenum

i mean most social networking sites just arent built for 3page type dicussions,hence the rudeness and lack of deep thinking is more pronounced on here

paddy_lo:

the above can be put down to general incompetence and corruption by a few in govt,and not the whole nation

No seriously, it is. The first time it really struck me fully was the first few times I travelled the West Coast (Africa); you would talk to mechanics in Cotonou or Accra and their arguments are informed and logical, the sort you'll never get from our local 9ja mechanics. It is difficult to imagine that our average mechanic can hold his own in a discussion of black politics, but its no problem for his Benenoise or Ghanian collegue.
Over here, one line retorts of, "we thank God", "God will help us" as a solution to every issue is very troubling and points to helplessness seizing hold of our critical faculties.

paddy_lo:

so maybe we have a point of intersection,cause my arguement is that this is mostly an online phenomenum

i mean most social networking sites just arent built for 3page type dicussions,hence the rudeness and lack of deep thinking is more pronounced on here

We do have a point of intersection but the two points stretches further away from each other after the intersect. I've had religious discussions with Nigerians in person and I get looked at as evil or an occult for not believing in the Bible or Quran. Anyways I'm not going to bag on that to say it's a Nigerian thing but since this forum is about Nigeria, Nigerians are my model examples.

paddy_lo:

ill pass on that one,ill urge u to go watch or read about the hidden race war in new orleans in the aftermath of hurricane katrina

but i digress

I don't think there was any race war or maybe I didn't hear about it. What I do know is that should such a storm be predicted to hit Texas, an evacuation will be called a month before time. Besides the Levy which the US military built was reported weak before the Katrina but the President did nothing about it. I don't think I'll blame that on race instead I'll blame it on government's incompetency. There were Blacks in the parliament before and after Katrina but they did nothing about it. Let's not play the race card here.

No seriously, it is. The first time it really struck me fully was the first few times I travelled the West Coast (Africa); you would talk to mechanics in Cotonou or Accra and their arguments are informed and logical, the sort you'll never get from our local 9ja mechanics. It is difficult to imagine that our average mechanic can hold his own in a discussion of black politics, but its no problem for his Benenoise or Ghanian collegue.
Over here, one line retorts of, "we thank God", "God will help us" as a solution to every issue is very troubling and points to helplessness seizing hold of our critical faculties.

ever wonder if they just are not willing to humor your probing,but are happy and willing to discuss whatever with friends they are more at ease with?

We do have a point of intersection but the two points stretches further away from each other after the intersect. I've had religious discussions with Nigerians in person and I get looked at as evil or an occult for not believing in the Bible or Quran. Anyways I'm not going to bag on that to say it's a Nigerian thing but since this forum is about Nigeria, Nigerians are my model examples.

well i dont much believe in a hebrew or arab god either,however i have found that most ppl worldwide have to get their thrill from something,call it religion,maybe alcohol,maybe gambling,and while they are in it there is no rational thought to be had with them

i still say i personally encounter nigerians in real life that i have richer discussions with,the online thing however is a big joke

I don't think there was any race war or maybe I didn't hear about it. What I do know is that should such a storm be predicted to hit Texas, an evacuation will be called a month before time. Besides the Levy which the US military built was reported weak before the Katrina but the President did nothing about it. I don't think I'll blame that on race instead I'll blame it on government's incompetency. There were Blacks in the parliament before and after Katrina but they did nothing about it. Let's not play the race card here.

when u have time go to google and type in "hurricane katrina hidden race war",it was a report first broken by the nation magazine,and later carried by cnn
after the hurricane hit,a lot of white in a neighborhood called algiers ponit in new orleans,got their guns and went looking for niggers to kill,to make it worse they are videotaped bragging about it
a couple of unsolved deaths(gunshot victims),are being investigated by the fbi,after one survivor of the shooting came forward

paddy_lo:

well i dont much believe in a hebrew or arab god either,however i have found that most ppl worldwide have to get their thrill from something,call it religion,maybe alcohol,maybe gambling,and while they are in it there is no rational thought to be had with them

i still say i personally encounter nigerians in real life that i have richer discussions with,the online thing however is a big joke

when u have time go to google and type in "hurricane katrina hidden race war",it was a report first broken by the nation magazine,and later carried by cnn
after the hurricane hit,a lot of white in a neighborhood called algiers ponit in new orleans,got their guns and went looking for niggers to kill,to make it worse they are videotaped bragging about it
a couple of unsolved deaths(gunshot victims),are being investigated by the fbi,after one survivor of the shooting came forward

I have encountered Nigerians who I had healthy debates with on religion while some it seems like I'm converting them.

About the race war. It's a big shame on whitey's part. But you don't want Nigerians to be generalized either do you? No. So let's not judge white folks by some rednecks.

I have encountered Nigerians who I had healthy debates with on religion while some it seems like I'm converting them.

About the race war. It's a big shame on whitey's part. But you don't want Nigerians to be generalized either do you? No. So let's not judge white folks by some rednecks.

true. . .

paddy_lo:

perhaps i should come out and clearly frame my point

what i am saying is that while i agree with your point,i only find this behavior as an online thing amongst nigerians and frankly amongst a lot of social networking sites

in real life when i debate with my nigerian friends its a little more deeper and meaningful,

Absence of critical beings an online-only trait? Are we speaking of the same set of Nigerians who cower in fear when urged to think about the type of life they continue to subject themselves to by allowing the same set of thieves bamboozle them year after year?

paddy_lo:

try debating religion with a southern baptist redneck texan,or a mullah from pakistan,i dont think its a nigerian thing at all

I can tell you for a fact that debating the listed is likely not going to turn out the same as engaging a right wing religious Nigerian. Sure, many already assume you doomed from the start for the fact that you do not believe as they do, but they are willing to provide you with detailed information on their belief, no matter how unbelievable. That is not the same you get from debating religion with many a Nigerian zealots. I encountered some as a younging and I can tell you the experience was terrifying. Went as far as to threaten me for not being of their faith. You only need to look in the religion section on Nairaland to get a feel of what to expect.  If you want to know what debating politics with a Nigerian is like, look around here. Compare it with what is obtained from non-nigerian forums on the same topics.

Beaf:

No seriously, it is. The first time it really struck me fully was the first few times I travelled the West Coast (Africa); you would talk to mechanics in Cotonou or Accra and their arguments are informed and logical, the sort you'll never get from our local 9ja mechanics. It is difficult to imagine that our average mechanic can hold his own in a discussion of black politics, but its no problem for his Benenoise or Ghanian collegue.
Over here, one line retorts of, "we thank God", "God will help us" as a solution to every issue is very troubling and points to helplessness seizing hold of our critical faculties.

roflmao!

I like this thread----

Im enjoying the read.

Most Nigerians are biased; i have since stopped bothering to engage is discussion or debates. In my undergraduate days i did a course called logic & philosophy and i remember that particular topic which treated premise and conclusion. It pains me when i see people take leave of their senses and start talking trash. Most of the pastors i hear in church come to a conclusion on matters which never had any premise or the premise just does not follow. Critical thinking is done after a thorough research.

I can tell you for a fact that debating the listed is likely not going to turn out the same as engaging a right wing religious Nigerian. Sure, many already assume you doomed from the start for the fact that you do not believe as they do

u are being,disingenuous here

@ paddy lo,

If I were you, I'll just ignore kobojunkie. First of all, how does she know debating rednecks is better than debating Nigerians? Has she debated every Nigerian and every redneck? obviously not. It's a thin line between being constructively critical about one's own and self hate. Kobojunkie crosses that line intentionally every time she posts something about Nigeria. Just let her bask in her own ambiance dominated by an aura of self hate.

paddy_lo:

no u dont quite get me,

the point i make is that critical thinking is mostly absent online,and to me not thinking critically by nigerians is a strictly online phenomenom

The online world is a representation of the real world, but the emboldened part is ridiculous!

paddy_lo:

as i believe that outside in the real world,the nigerians i meet are natural critical thinkers

and i gave some cultural examples to back up my premise

You simply said

paddy_lo:

i dont know about u but i am from the east ,  about Igbo culture,

I will let you reply to your words:

paddy_lo:

  i dont care where u are from dude

Then you wrote a [b]Sanusi [/b]like 2 liner for the Hausas and Yoruba people:

paddy_lo:

i suspect that other tribes even those with kabyeisis or emirs do have a council of elders

who debate amongst themselves,so what u say is not in our culture

Finally you wrote:

now,for the last line,my point is that since i believe that this is a mostly online phenomenom,the poor people u talk about as being battered by hardship,hardly can afford online access to begin with,so they not even part of the sample

Have you heard of web cafes?
Do you have any concrete evidence to back up your claims?

Ajanlekoko:

Culture and mindset plays a role, a serious one. Africans and Asians are similar in that regard, i.e. they do not particularly have a value system based on equality. While the Asians have a strong culture of leadership and responsibility, Africans seem to have been somewhat disconnected from their historical value systems (of which much has been written about), and are ineffectual when it comes to showing strength and leadership.
Unfortunately, innovation can't thrive when there is no collective and free sharing of ideas. So it explains why little irelevant distractions are what we focus on, while bigger and more significant challenges remain unsolved.
Nigeria is a bit better. . . but we are too focused on negative competition, pulling each other down, rather than blazing trails.
I'm not a sociologist, but. . . maybe our collective confidences have been destroyed by the slave trade or something. The Asians (Arabs, and the Far Easters) seem to have an innate stubbornness, even in the face of oppression. Somehow, even when the chips are down, these guys still risk all to battle oppression. Africans just seem to submit, physically and mentally.

I thoroughly enjoyed this post and I think the poster has raised several broad issues.

Ajanlekoko:

The Asians (Arabs, and the Far Easters) seem to have an innate stubbornness, even in the face of oppression. Somehow, even when the chips are down, these guys still risk all to battle oppression. Africans just seem to submit, physically and mentally.

I think this is not entirely true, for example in the UK the Africans are more educated and Employed than Pakistanis, Bangladeshi; both Countries have a similar History to Nigeria and have larger populations.

Beaf:

The tribal/religious bandwagon is another reason for our lack of critical thinking skills (tribal/religious bandwagon are themselves, symptoms of something else).

Can you give an accurate definition of tribalism? I ask this because I think the term is over-used and ambiguous.

Beaf:

I second the teaching of philosophy. We actually went a bit farther than that and studied logic at my secondary school; were interesting arguments were entartained such as, "God is everywhere", "therefore, God does not need to walk around, therefore God has no need for legs". I think if you try such an argument with some of our religious folk, you will get burnt.

I see where you are comming from but isn't Philosphy mainly about EUROPEAN thinkers like marx and Hegel; if anything LOGIC would be much better because its not subjective.

I see where you are comming from but isn't Philosphy mainly about EUROPEAN thinkers like marx and Hegel; if anything LOGIC would be much better because its not subjective.

, logic is a well-accepted branch of philosophy. Marx and Hegel constitute a minute part of philosophy- considering the fact that philosophy is divided into metaphysics/epistemology/logic/ethics/aesthetics

I love metaphysics

Problem with logic is that since I have been on Nairaland, I havn't seen anyone who used really classical logic to defend points or even consider thought experiments per se, to disprove a point. Most people here just use roforofo fight. So trying to actually argue coherently with anyone on NL is a futile effort, so why dont you just join the game

The online world is a representation of the real world, but the emboldened part is ridiculous!

not true,i will give u an example,twitter only allows for a limited number of letters when using it or blogging with it
most online sites like facebook thrive on one-liners and quick updates
there have even been research that states that young kids nowadays are loosing social skills in the real world because they spend too much time online
so no the online world today is a completely different world for most ppl,from the real world

You simply said
i dont know about u but i am from the east ,  about Igbo culture,

not true check my post from last page,heck i will reproduce it here below

"as a matter of fact i disagree with that completely

i dont know about u but i am from the east

the igbos are republican in nature and therefore have no kings

all decisions must be taken with some form of consensus among the chiefs after rigorous debate

even at home the wives are also consulted even though the final decision is left to the husband or male


i suspect that other tribes even those with kabyeisis or emirs do have a council of elders

who debate amongst themselves,so what u say is not in our culture

i maintain it is a symptom of our fast online and plugged in nature nowadays"

I will let you reply to your words
i dont care where u are from dude

thats from another thread that has no bearing on this one,
u were trying to tell me u are yoruba
and therefore have a say on what type of pictures of lagos should be posted by me or whateva
so i told u off,
stop tryna carry your beef across threads,u are no more in high school(i hope)

Then you wrote a Sanusi like 2 liner for the Hausas and Yoruba people:

i wrote a one or two liner for hausa and yoruba,because i am not well versed in them
so i expect someone from those parts to enlighten us more

Have you heard of web cafes?
Do you have any concrete evidence to back up your claims?

web cafes still cost money,the last time i checked
my evidence is what i posted,i mostly encounter this phenomena online
when in nigeria the ppl i associate with engage in deep rancorous debate,whether in my undergrad days in abuja,
in lagos with relatives or out on a all night out with my friends,
topics always come up,and the subsequent debate is mostly rich and sometimes even filled with nigerian proverbs and sayings
maybe u should hang out with more sensible ppl when u are offline

I second the teaching of philosophy. We actually went a bit farther than that and studied logic at my secondary school; were interesting arguments were entartained such as, "God is everywhere",  "therefore, God does not need to walk around, therefore God has no need for legs". I think if you try such an argument with some of our religious folk, you will get burnt.

That is not logic mate, that is speculation . I do second the teaching of philosophy in nigerian universities because it makes you reason out anything b4 u do it- instead of acting b4 u think as many of y countrymen do

SEFAGO:

, logic is a well-accepted branch of philosophy. Marx and Hegel constitute a minute part of philosophy- considering the fact that philosophy is divided into metaphysics/epistemology/logic/ethics/aesthetics

I love metaphysics

Nice to know

SEFAGO:

Problem with logic is that since I have been on Nairaland, I havn't seen anyone who used really classical logic to defend points or even consider thought experiments per se, to disprove a point. Most people here just use roforofo fight. So trying to actually argue coherently with anyone on NL is a futile effort, so why dont you just join the game

Thats the attitude of Nigerian Politicians and look at the mess, just because people act like fools you don't need to join in - what have you got to lose?

Thats the attitude of Nigerian Politicians and look at the mess, just because people act like fools you don't need to join in - what have you got to lose?

A lot of free money .
If I take everything seriously in Nairaland, its a bit of a waste of time- it is difficult convincing nigerians about any issue- there is something in the nigerian atmosphere, which makes anyone born on nigerian soil to think that they came into this world with unquestionable knowledge about the affairs of this world. Trying to convince any of us otherwise is like trying to make fire from water, so just join the humor.