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Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 7:01pm On Apr 07, 2017
I want to start a thread about prevalent issues encountered with cooling system as this as been one of the most misunderstood concepts average Nigerian cars owners have yet come to be in term with .
The method and procedure adopted by the local mechanics(kazeems) in a a bid to resolve cooling issues often leave the car with other problems added to it (thermostat removing and fan running direct) .And what is eventually achieved is overheating suppression by the kazeem which will soon spell doom for the engine later on.
Moreso, the reason the kazeem are ignorantly abusing the cooling system is due to lack of basic theoretical knowledge of basic sciences and how things works.
So we will use this medium to discuss basic cooling concept ,design ,maintenance ,issues and issues resolution.
I promise not to bore u with lengthy write up .I will be concise ,direct and straight to the point.

4 Likes

Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Nobody: 8:09pm On Apr 07, 2017
go ahead sir
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 11:12am On Apr 08, 2017
Design of an efficient cooling system with consideration to engine operating temperature
During combustion process of a Internal combustion engine, a large amount of heat is being generated and the temperature in the combustion chamber can reach up to 2,500 C so cooling the area around the cylinder is of paramount importance so that the engine doesn’t get destroyed. So an efficient cooling system must be in place to remove enough heat (not to eliminate all the heat totally ) to keep the engine at a safe temperature(operating temperature) for optimum performance.
So the design of an efficient cooling system must be such in a way that that the optimum operating temperature must be maintained at all time .Engine Operating temperature for most asian car is around 89-99 degree C which is around the middle mark on your temperature gauge on the instrument cluster .

Importance of running the engine at optimum operating temperature
1.0 Engine Optimum performance: This is the condition where the engine is giving out the best power output and lowest emission (best fuel economy) .So in other words, engine optimum performance is function of engine operating temperature I e you can get the best power and fuel economy from your engine if you are running your engine at the operating temperature and to prove this you can check the graph below:
From the graph above ,you can definitely see that the engine power and fuel economy are increasing at a certain range of temperature increase .
Also ,to drive home my points ,i have personally undertook some experiment procedure with my scan tool (maxisys). Attached are two sceenshot of live data of scan data for a toyota yaris for two different extreme temperature for low (30 degree C )and engine operating optimum temperature of 91 degree respectively .let see where we get the best fuel economy
From figure 1A which represent low temperature condition(30 degree c) ,The PIDs representing fuel consumption indicators are :the injection volume 0.155 ml and injector port 4.22ms .
From figure 1B,the temperature of the same car is now allowed to build up to optimum temperature (temperature 91 degree c) and the the fuel consumption indicator have drastically reduced to injector volume 0.071ml and injector 2.43 ms.
From the comparison above we can see the degree of percentage gain of fuel economy achieved just by running the car @ operating temperature rather than overcooling the car at low temperature
So a good cooling system must be designed to achieve the operating system as quickly as possible to achieve best fuel economy, best emission control and peak performance.
2.0 Adequate lubrication protection for your engine:
Water (H20) is one of the by- product of combustion process i.e.
2C8H18 (fuel ) + 25O2(air) = 16CO2(carbondioxide) + H2O (water )
From the equation above we can infer that for every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water!!!
At low temperature water can mix with suphur (another by product of combustion ) to produce acid which can damage engine bearings .So also engine oil needs to be at least 90 degrees C to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor as Cold engine oil causes excessive frictional drag on the bearings and cylinder walls causing wear and tear on the engine .what will this eventually result to is engine exhaust pipe giving out white smoke.

3.0 Protection of CAT :Catalytic converter is an emissions control device that converts toxic gases and pollutants in exhaust gas to less toxic pollutants.It is a very expensive device because of the nature of the material it is made from (platinum ) which is the reason for it being commonly stolen .
Catalytic converter efficiency increases at optimum engine operating temperature however damage can occur if the engine is running ‘’rich’’ for prolonged period of time .Running rich condition usually occurs when running the engine perpetually at low engine temperature .

Final Note
So from all the points listed above, we can infer that running the engine at optimum temperature is compulsory to get the best from your engine and for maintenance purposes.And which is why I strongly condemn the barbaric act performed by untrained mechanic of removing the thermostat and running the fan direct in a bid to resolve overheating issue .What they want to achieve is to drop the engine optimum temperature so that the pressure in the cooling system can reduce drastically. You are actually paying them to destroy your engine if are allowing them to abuse your car this way !!!
Subsequently ,we will discuss the the design concept of mechanical and electrical portion of efficient cooling system.

References
1. http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_222.pdf
2. http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/David_Giessel/basics.html
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

3 Likes

Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Emekayoung(m): 7:10pm On Apr 08, 2017
Wat else can cause a vehicle to over heat if radiator has no leakage and fans are working well?
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 7:57pm On Apr 08, 2017
Emekayoung:
Wat else can cause a vehicle to over heat if radiator has no leakage and fans are working well?
Stuck close thermostat, faulty water pump ,bad Radiator cap,clogged Radiator and also watch for extremely lean condition of air fuel mixture.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by BestySam(m): 9:43pm On Apr 08, 2017
Emekayoung:
Wat else can cause a vehicle to over heat if radiator has no leakage and fans are working well?

Top gasket.

My brother, I really suffered from overheating. The thing chop my money no be small.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by erico2k2(m): 1:15am On Apr 09, 2017
honmusa:

Stuck close thermostat, faulty water pump ,bad Radiator cap,clogged Radiator and also watch for extremely lean condition of air fuel mixture.
my Mrs had a bad leak on her car,you can only see this leak when the car is on max temp and the engine reved up.it was from teh radiator.
I also suffered over heating due leakage,the water never reaches ultimate temperature for the fan sensor to kick in thereby no fan no cooling water boiling grin grin, that was the day I realized you cant direct wire BMW cooling fan.

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Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Emekayoung(m): 1:48am On Apr 09, 2017
honmusa:

Stuck close thermostat, faulty water pump ,bad Radiator cap,clogged Radiator and also watch for extremely lean condition of air fuel mixture.
Thermostat is no more but pls how do i know if the water pump is faulty?
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 3:09am On Apr 09, 2017
Emekayoung:

Thermostat is no more but pls how do i know if the water pump is faulty?
it will be helpful if you take it from the beginning eg the make of car ,description of overheating ,etc
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by tayosmatts(f): 6:05am On May 12, 2017
honmusa:
I want to start a thread about prevalent issues encountered with cooling system as this as been one of the most misunderstood concepts average Nigerian cars owners have yet come to be in term with .
The method and procedure adopted by the local mechanics(kazeems) in a a bid to resolve cooling issues often leave the car with other problems added to it (thermostat removing and fan running direct) .And what is eventually achieved is overheating suppression by the kazeem which will soon spell doom for the engine later on.
Moreso, the reason the kazeem are ignorantly abusing the cooling system is due to lack of basic theoretical knowledge of basic sciences and how things works.
So we will use this medium to discuss basic cooling concept ,design ,maintenance ,issues and issues resolution.
I promise not to bore u with lengthy write up .I will be concise ,direct and straight to the point.



Wanted to mail you but your mail address is not on your profile. Please can you drop it?
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 6:13am On May 12, 2017
tayosmatts:


Wanted to mail you but your mail address is not on your profile. Please can you drop it?
autologicng@gmail.com
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by tayosmatts(f): 6:30am On May 12, 2017
honmusa:


Thank you. Mail sent.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 8:01am On May 12, 2017
tayosmatts:

Thank you. Mail sent.
. Ok ma
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by lilreese: 7:41pm On May 12, 2017
where is your shop located ?

my car has been having overheating and my kareem removed thermostat.
and the car stop overheating then now it's overheating again ?
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 8:37pm On May 12, 2017
lilreese:
where is your shop located ?

my car has been having overheating and my kareem removed thermostat.
and the car stop overheating then now it's overheating again ?

Charlie boy bus stop along ,Gbagada oshodi expressway .please call 08061166316 to book appointment!!

1 Like

Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 8:38pm On May 12, 2017
lilreese:
where is your shop located ?

my car has been having overheating and my kareem removed thermostat.
and the car stop overheating then now it's overheating again ?

Charlie boy bus stop (inward oshodi )along Gbagada oshodi expressway .please call 08061166316 to book appointment!!
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by fortunejum: 12:37pm On May 14, 2017
What causes water in my radiator to short when I cover like 120km and there is no sign of lickage. Note , the fan is not connected directly.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by erico2k2(m): 1:30pm On May 14, 2017
fortunejum:
What causes water in my radiator to short when I cover like 120km and there is no sign of lickage. Note , the fan is not connected directly.
Leak? in form of steam?U can never see this
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Hellustic(m): 3:35pm On May 14, 2017
Hello
Pls i have a mazda mpv 2002 model. Recently the car has been overheating alot. Even at night.. I had to replace the radiator and colant. Still the issue continues.. It over heats in less than 7mins of driving..
I also recently noticed that it was not connecting to a scanner when i tried to scan.. Used 2 different scanner but couldn't connect.. Pls what cud be the cause cos im so tired..
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 3:52pm On May 14, 2017
fortunejum:
What causes water in my radiator to short when I cover like 120km and there is no sign of lickage. Note , the fan is not connected directly.
If you have coolant shortage in any circumstances ,definitely there is a leak somewhere along the cooling system path .
Some of this leak is not even discernable to even the expert eyes .Special equipment is needed to fish out this leak .
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 3:57pm On May 14, 2017
Hellustic:
Hello
Pls i have a mazda mpv 2002 model. Recently the car has been overheating alot. Even at night.. I had to replace the radiator and colant. Still the issue continues.. It over heats in less than 7mins of driving..
I also recently noticed that it was not connecting to a scanner when i tried to scan.. Used 2 different scanner but couldn't connect.. Pls what cud be the cause cos im so tired..
Prior to the car overheating ,is there any sign of coolant level reduction in the radiator at all .
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Hellustic(m): 5:06pm On May 14, 2017
honmusa:

Prior to the car overheating ,is there any sign of coolant level reduction in the radiator at all .

Not at all... I checked and there is no leak.. My mechanic had to change the radiator with another mazda mpv to confirm and it was still overheating
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by erico2k2(m): 9:27pm On May 14, 2017
Hellustic:


Not at all... I checked and there is no leak.. My mechanic had to change the radiator with another mazda mpv to confirm and it was still overheating
Sack your mechanic, he did not see leak from radiator but went ahead to change it.This is how they help spend your money
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 7:18am On May 15, 2017
Hellustic:


Not at all... I checked and there is no leak.. My mechanic had to change the radiator with another mazda mpv to confirm and it was still overheating
On what condition does the overheating occurs ??
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by Hellustic(m): 11:42am On May 15, 2017
honmusa:

On what condition does the overheating occurs ??

the last one was one saturday when i was at oshodi aroundi 6pm. had to park for 1hour and continued, before i got to ikeja it overheat again...
parked for another hour..... toppping the water in the radiator.. close to iyana ipaja it over heat again.... and this was around 9pm or so and the road was free
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 12:17pm On May 15, 2017
Hellustic:


the last one was one saturday when i was at oshodi aroundi 6pm. had to park for 1hour and continued, before i got to ikeja it overheat again...
parked for another hour..... toppping the water in the radiator.. close to iyana ipaja it over heat again.... and this was around 9pm or so and the road was free
please call me @ 08061166316 seems u don't get my question .let troubleshoot together.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by holocron: 11:42am On Sep 16, 2017
honmusa:
Design of an efficient cooling system with consideration to engine operating temperature
During combustion process of a Internal combustion engine, a large amount of heat is being generated and the temperature in the combustion chamber can reach up to 2,500 C so cooling the area around the cylinder is of paramount importance so that the engine doesn’t get destroyed. So an efficient cooling system must be in place to remove enough heat (not to eliminate all the heat totally ) to keep the engine at a safe temperature(operating temperature) for optimum performance.
So the design of an efficient cooling system must be such in a way that that the optimum operating temperature must be maintained at all time .Engine Operating temperature for most asian car is around 89-99 degree C which is around the middle mark on your temperature gauge on the instrument cluster .

Importance of running the engine at optimum operating temperature
1.0 Engine Optimum performance: This is the condition where the engine is giving out the best power output and lowest emission (best fuel economy) .So in other words, engine optimum performance is function of engine operating temperature I e you can get the best power and fuel economy from your engine if you are running your engine at the operating temperature and to prove this you can check the graph below:
From the graph above ,you can definitely see that the engine power and fuel economy are increasing at a certain range of temperature increase .
Also ,to drive home my points ,i have personally undertook some experiment procedure with my scan tool (maxisys). Attached are two sceenshot of live data of scan data for a toyota yaris for two different extreme temperature for low (30 degree C )and engine operating optimum temperature of 91 degree respectively .let see where we get the best fuel economy
From figure 1A which represent low temperature condition(30 degree c) ,The PIDs representing fuel consumption indicators are :the injection volume 0.155 ml and injector port 4.22ms .
From figure 1B,the temperature of the same car is now allowed to build up to optimum temperature (temperature 91 degree c) and the the fuel consumption indicator have drastically reduced to injector volume 0.071ml and injector 2.43 ms.
From the comparison above we can see the degree of percentage gain of fuel economy achieved just by running the car @ operating temperature rather than overcooling the car at low temperature
So a good cooling system must be designed to achieve the operating system as quickly as possible to achieve best fuel economy, best emission control and peak performance.
2.0 Adequate lubrication protection for your engine:
Water (H20) is one of the by- product of combustion process i.e.
2C8H18 (fuel ) + 25O2(air) = 16CO2(carbondioxide) + H2O (water )
From the equation above we can infer that for every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water!!!
At low temperature water can mix with suphur (another by product of combustion ) to produce acid which can damage engine bearings .So also engine oil needs to be at least 90 degrees C to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor as Cold engine oil causes excessive frictional drag on the bearings and cylinder walls causing wear and tear on the engine .what will this eventually result to is engine exhaust pipe giving out white smoke.

3.0 Protection of CAT :Catalytic converter is an emissions control device that converts toxic gases and pollutants in exhaust gas to less toxic pollutants.It is a very expensive device because of the nature of the material it is made from (platinum ) which is the reason for it being commonly stolen .
Catalytic converter efficiency increases at optimum engine operating temperature however damage can occur if the engine is running ‘’rich’’ for prolonged period of time .Running rich condition usually occurs when running the engine perpetually at low engine temperature .

Final Note
So from all the points listed above, we can infer that running the engine at optimum temperature is compulsory to get the best from your engine and for maintenance purposes.And which is why I strongly condemn the barbaric act performed by untrained mechanic of removing the thermostat and running the fan direct in a bid to resolve overheating issue .What they want to achieve is to drop the engine optimum temperature so that the pressure in the cooling system can reduce drastically. You are actually paying them to destroy your engine if are allowing them to abuse your car this way !!!
Subsequently ,we will discuss the the design concept of mechanical and electrical portion of efficient cooling system.

References
1. http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_222.pdf
2. http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/David_Giessel/basics.html
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter


Your article is quite informative. I have been following your submissions and I must say kudos to you for excellent professionalism and scientific attitude uncommon in this part of the world.

From your article, I am yet still a bit uncertain that removal of the themostat in certain cars operàting in a tropical climate like Nigeria can OVER COOL an engine. Maybe overheat, but over cool? For instance in your test case you compared an engine running on 30°C. How is it possible when room temperature in Nigeria is 30°C and many hot afternoons reach 40 to 50°C ?

And from experience, on certain smaller engines and single cell radiators, removal of thermostat does cause overheating in Nigeria, usually when the car is idling or in holdups.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by honmusa(m): 7:55am On Sep 17, 2017
holocron:


Your article is quite informative. I have been following your submissions and I must say kudos to you for excellent professionalism and scientific attitude uncommon in this part of the world.

From your article, I am yet still a bit uncertain that removal of the themostat in certain cars operàting in a tropical climate like Nigeria can OVER COOL an engine. Maybe overheat, but over cool? For instance in your test case you compared an engine running on 30°C. How is it possible when room temperature in Nigeria is 30°C and many hot afternoons reach 40 to 50°C ?

And from experience, on certain smaller engines and single cell radiators, removal of thermostat does cause overheating in Nigeria, usually when the car is idling or in holdups.
To give an objective perspective to this queries I will need conduct another round of experiment with a car and take some readings to drive home my points.
So stay tuned!!!

1 Like

Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by erico2k2(m): 10:53am On Sep 17, 2017
holocron:


Your article is quite informative. I have been following your submissions and I must say kudos to you for excellent professionalism and scientific attitude uncommon in this part of the world.

From your article, I am yet still a bit uncertain that removal of the themostat in certain cars operàting in a tropical climate like Nigeria can OVER COOL an engine. Maybe overheat, but over cool? For instance in your test case you compared an engine running on 30°C. How is it possible when room temperature in Nigeria is 30°C and many hot afternoons reach 40 to 50°C ?

And from experience, on certain smaller engines and single cell radiators, removal of thermostat does cause overheating in Nigeria, usually when the car is idling or in holdups.
I think you are a bit LATE to class, the issue of thermostat has been trashed since 2007, anyways, teh thermostat is just a valve device fitted with a special metal that reacts quick ot change in temperature, it has only two way flow in and out and there is not electrical function just manual.All car Engines has an ultimate temp thats when your dial is in the middle,Now the only variable to this is how long it takes the cooling system to rise to this temp.This was where the Idea of warm the Engine came from.However in modern cars there a systems in place to speed up this process ie teh webasto in range rovers.
If you remove this thermostats this will hapen
It takes longer for you Engine to reach max temp to function %100
Your cooling fan wont know when to stop blowing air(Cold water might be trapped where its sensor is and it thinks the Engine do not need cooling) thats overheating,
Imagine running on cold Engine Oil.
Now to quench the myth about Nigeria temperature, try the temperatures in California Desert, some places in Italy ans southern France and spain.Is Nigeria hotter than the UAE?

1 Like

Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by holocron: 12:07pm On Sep 17, 2017
erico2k2:

I think you are a bit LATE to class, the issue of thermostat has been trashed since 2007, anyways, teh thermostat is just a valve device fitted with a special metal that reacts quick ot change in temperature, it has only two way flow in and out and there is not electrical function just manual.All car Engines has an ultimate temp thats when your dial is in the middle,Now the only variable to this is how long it takes the cooling system to rise to this temp.This was where the Idea of warm the Engine came from.However in modern cars there a systems in place to speed up this process ie teh webasto in range rovers.
If you remove this thermostats this will hapen
It takes longer for you Engine to reach max temp to function %100
Your cooling fan wont know when to stop blowing air(Cold water might be trapped where its sensor is and it thinks the Engine do not need cooling) thats overheating,
Imagine running on cold Engine Oil.
Now to quench the myth about Nigeria temperature, try the temperatures in California Desert, some places in Italy ans southern France and spain.Is Nigeria hotter than the UAE?

I know and accept all you have said. I am more interested at the bolded. Yes, Nigeria lies very close to the equator b/w latitudes 4° and 13°in the tropics and as such the sun is almost always overhead all year round. These other areas you mentioned are all above latitude 30°, part pf the temperate regions of the world. Note: The sun can never be directly above your head anywhere above 30° latitude. Those places you mentioned, there midday sun even in summer is like our 10am sun. Nigeria is far hotter than those areas. Thats why our skin evolved to black and they remained fair.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by erico2k2(m): 12:45pm On Sep 17, 2017
holocron:


I know and accept all you have said. I am more interested at the bolded. Yes, Nigeria lies very close to the equator b/w latitudes 4° and 13°in the tropics and as such the sun is almost always overhead all year round. These other areas you mentioned are all above latitude 30°, part pf the temperate regions of the world. Note: The sun can never be directly above your head anywhere above 30° latitude. Those places you mentioned, there midday sun even in summer is like our 10am sun. Nigeria is far hotter than those areas. Thats why our skin evolved to black and they remained fair.
The external temperature of your car has no direct effect to an internal combustion Engine, its a closed system, heat is generated and taken care of from within is why the Thermostats open when teh water is HOT enough, at high speed your fan sometimes stop working as the water iscool enough to go round your block due to wind action.The Only way the external environment effect the temp of your Engine is the rate at which it takes to reach normal working temp.Those super fast cars have a mechanism to heat up fuel and coolant to reach this temp sharpish.
Re: Let Discuss Cooling System And Overheating!!! by holocron: 1:53pm On Sep 17, 2017
erico2k2:

The external temperature of your car has no direct effect to an internal combustion Engine, its a closed system, heat is generated and taken care of from within is why the Thermostats open when teh water is HOT enough, at high speed your fan sometimes stop working as the water iscool enough to go round your block due to wind action. The Only way the external environment effect the temp of your Engine is the rate at which it takes to reach normal working temp. Those super fast cars have a mechanism to heat up fuel and coolant to reach this temp sharpish.

Don't you think the 2 bolded sentences contradict each other? Your 2nd assertion rhymes with what we are saying. The engine takes a shorter time (than in colder climes) to attain operating temperature (88°C for the toyota sequoia V8). Without thermostat, the water constantly coming in from the radiator is about 50°C - 60°C, gets to the engine and rapidly rises to 88 degrees before moving on to the radiator.

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