Christianity started as a community. It was a group of people learning to follow Christ and to experience him together. Most of the letters Paul wrote were written to a community of believers not individual Christians. Together these community tried to workout their salvation and make themselves ready for the coming of their Lord. Christianity was a cult obsessed with Christ and learning to live the life of Christ in this hostile world. Together they learn to survive the hardship of their time, they carried the burden of each other and lived as one.
Over the years Christianity became more individualistic.

There was a growing emphasis placed on individually pursuing Christ. We began to inculcate the idea that every man is on his own. A lone-ranger style of Christianity began to creep in and take over the Church. It is the warlord of individualism, the agent of death, decay and disintegration. He gradually breaks loose that which hold together because he knows that one would chase a thousand but two would put ten thousand to flight. He dread unity, he attacks life and introduce death. Jesus came and gave life, that life grow into a body, a community. But death cannot stand it, he sent his warlord — individualism — to break into our midst. To force the Christian to focus on himself and gradually forget the body.

We have come to believe Christianity is just about me and God. And we say things like, "it is between me and my God". No, Christianity is us and God. If there is anything wrong in the relationship between you and God it affect the whole body of Christ. And if your relationship with God is very progressive the whole body benefit from it. Stop thinking it is all about you and you alone. Look at us, our theologies are individualistic, our messages are individualistic, our songs are individualistic and we are so plague by individualism.

Christians today talk a lot about personal salvation, personal experience of God, individual pursuit of the kingdom of God etc. The concept of the body has gradually fade away. We don't even know of the existence of such things as; experiencing Christ as a community; knowing him together as a community; pursuing salvation and the kingdom of God as a body etc. Paul said, "may be able to comprehend together with all God's people what is the width and length and depth and height — to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph 3:18-19).

We cannot know the width, length, depth and height of the love of Christ individually. It is together with all God's people that we can grasp the fullness of God. It is in a community that we have a greater knowledge of God. In the community we come in contact with different sides of Christ as he had deposited them in different people. We would be struck with awe at the diversity and beauty of the complexity of Christ.

We would find Christ in a richer way. Christianity is not all about you, you are not called to walk this journey alone. Set yourself free from the shackles of individualism and learn to discern the body.

http://hiswordxray..com.ng/2017/03/the-battle-of-individualism.html?m=1

Hiswordxray:
Christianity started as a community. It was a group of people learning to follow Christ and to experience him together. Most of the letters Paul wrote were written to a community of believers not individual Christians. Together these community tried to workout their salvation and make themselves ready for the coming of their Lord. Christianity was a cult obsessed with Christ and learning to live the life of Christ in this hostile world. Together they learn to survive the hardship of their time, they carried the burden of each other and lived as one.
Over the years Christianity became more individualistic.

There was a growing emphasis placed on individually pursuing Christ. We began to inculcate the idea that every man is on his own. A lone-ranger style of Christianity began to creep in and take over the Church. It is the warlord of individualism, the agent of death, decay and disintegration. He gradually breaks loose that which hold together because he knows that one would chase a thousand but two would put ten thousand to flight. He dread unity, he attacks life and introduce death. Jesus came and gave life, that life grow into a body, a community. But death cannot stand it, he sent his warlord — individualism — to break into our midst. To force the Christian to focus on himself and gradually forget the body.

We have come to believe Christianity is just about me and God. And we say things like, "it is between me and my God". No, Christianity is us and God. If there is anything wrong in the relationship between you and God it affect the whole body of Christ. And if your relationship with God is very progressive the whole body benefit from it. Stop thinking it is all about you and you alone. Look at us, our theologies are individualistic, our messages are individualistic, our songs are individualistic and we are so plague by individualism.

Christians today talk a lot about personal salvation, personal experience of God, individual pursuit of the kingdom of God etc. The concept of the body has gradually fade away. We don't even know of the existence of such things as; experiencing Christ as a community; knowing him together as a community; pursuing salvation and the kingdom of God as a body etc. Paul said, "may be able to comprehend together with all God's people what is the width and length and depth and height — to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph 3:18-19).

We cannot know the width, length, depth and height of the love of Christ individually. It is together with all God's people that we can grasp the fullness of God. It is in a community that we have a greater knowledge of God. In the community we come in contact with different sides of Christ as he had deposited them in different people. We would be struck with awe at the diversity and beauty of the complexity of Christ.

We would find Christ in a richer way. Christianity is not all about you, you are not called to walk this journey alone. Set yourself free from the shackles of individualism and learn to discern the body.

http://hiswordxray..com.ng/2017/03/the-battle-of-individualism.html?m=1

So you are saying God sees us collectively not individually, blesses us collectively not individually?

You missed the point.

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit."

"I tell you the truth, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, .... It remains an inert unproductive thing—"it abides alone."

Do you understand that?
Note the singular form of "the grain of wheat."
The experience of dying is a personal, individualistic affair, which is experiencing Creation.

That verse is highly coded and explains a lot of spiritual concepts, like yin-yang, reincarnation.
Lets not digress.

menxer:


So you are saying God sees us collectively not individually, blesses us collectively not individually?

You missed the point.

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit."

"I tell you the truth, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, .... It remains an inert unproductive thing—"it abides alone."

Do you understand that?
Note the singular form of "the grain of wheat."
The experience of dying is a personal, individualistic affair, which is experiencing Creation.

That verse is highly coded and explains a lot of spiritual concepts, like yin-yang, reincarnation.
Lets not digress.

You ignored this part:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit."

The reason the grain must enter into the ground is so it would not continue to remain alone. It is not good for the grain to remain alone, it must pass through death just for the sake of becoming a collective body. This stress the importance of being a collective body.

That verse contains a great principle; one grain dies for the whole body to have life. If the grain didn't die there won't have been fruit. This shows that Christianity is not an individual thing, it is not all about you and you alone. If you refuse to die (experience the cross) many would suffer. But if you embrace the cross you would bring life to many.

Never become too individualistic and forget that we are a body, anything you do affect the whole body. Together we battle to apprehend this life that Christ have given us.

Hiswordxray:

You ignored this part:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit."

The reason the grain must enter into the ground is so it would not continue to remain alone. It is not good for the grain to remain alone, it must pass through death just for the sake of becoming a collective body. This stress the importance of being a collective body.

That verse contains a great principle; one grain dies for the whole body to have life. If the grain didn't die there won't have been fruit. This shows that Christianity is not an individual thing, it is not all about you and you alone. If you refuse to die (experience the cross) many would suffer. But if you embrace the cross you would bring life to many.

Never become too individualistic and forget that we are a body, anything you do affect the whole body. Together we battle to apprehend this life that Christ have given us.

How is this different from what I said, except yours lay emphasis on collective experience?

@bolded, is that a collective experience or a an individualistic experience?

Which one comes first, the individual experience of death or the experience of being part of a collective body?

Even if "the seed" is inside a sack with a million other seeds, it abides unproductively and inertly alone. For that not to happen it must reenter the death - birth cycle.

That is Jesus in effect, technically explaining the concept of reincarnation.

menxer:


How is this different from what I said, except yours lay emphasis on collective experience?

@bolded, is that a collective experience or a an individualistic experience?

Which one comes first, the individual experience of death or the experience of being part of a collective body?

Even if "the seed" is inside a sack with a million other seeds, it abides unproductively and inertly alone. For that not to happen it must reenter the death - birth cycle.

That is Jesus in effect, technically explaining the concept of reincarnation.

I am not saying there is nothing like the individual in Christianity. Yes there is the individual but there is also the collective body. What I'm trying to say is that emphasis should be placed more in the collective than the individual.
You interpreted that verse with an individualistic view and I tried to show you that it can also be interpreted with a view that emphasizes collectiveness. We Christians have focused too much on the individual and have lost the ability to discern the body.

We should learn to see Christianity more as a body or a community rather than many saved individual. We cannot be victorious as a Church until the body becomes more important than the individual.

Hiswordxray:

I am not saying there is nothing like the individual in Christianity. Yes there is the individual but there is also the collective body. What I'm trying to say is that emphasis should be placed more in the collective than the individual.
You interpreted that verse with an individualistic view and I tried to show you that it can also be interpreted with a view that emphasizes collectiveness. We Christians have focused too much on the individual and have lost the ability to discern the body.

We should learn to see Christianity more as a body or a community rather than many saved individual. We cannot be victorious as a Church until the body becomes more important than the individual.

Please reread my comments.

You cannot emphasize the collective at the expense of the individual "seed" because the process of rebirth and reproduction (physically or spiritually) is at individual level.

The individual seed that makes up the "body" must undergo this process individually not collectively.

menxer:


Please reread my comments.

You cannot emphasize the collective at the expense of the individual "seed" because the process of rebirth and reproduction (physically or spiritually) is at individual level.

The individual seed that makes up the "body" must undergo this process individually not collectively.

True

To change the world we must change ourselves(individual)first....then the world we perseve will change to the world we prefer. Once our mindset changes, we start to experience a similar world to like minded people.

The only battle I see here is within a person who do not understand how the universe works. There is no battle if you know the truth.

menxer:


Please reread my comments.

You cannot emphasize the collective at the expense of the individual "seed" because the process of rebirth and reproduction (physically or spiritually) is at individual level.

The individual seed that makes up the "body" must undergo this process individually not collectively.

The Bible says the Church is our mother. It is the mother that is responsible for reproduction. We become begotten of God because Christ had secured a woman. Without this woman you won't be begotten of God — you won't be a Christian today.

Hiswordxray:

The Bible says the Church is our mother. It is the mother that is responsible for reproduction. We become begotten of God because Christ had secured a woman. Without this woman you won't be begotten of God — you won't be a Christian today.

It's OK, you can shift the responsibility for your spiritual evolution to your mother, the church, but remember everyman shall face "judgement" alone; sorry, in your case the church will be there to testify in your defense.

menxer:


It's OK, you can shift the responsibility for your spiritual evolution to your mother, the church, but remember everyman shall face "judgement" alone; sorry, in your case the church will be there to testify in your defense.

You would be judged based on how much you fill your part as a member of the body not as an individual Christian. For Christians judgement is not based on how much you have been holy, the truth is that you are already holy by the blood of the Lamb. But we would be judged because each member of the body have a part to play.

The hand has a unique role, the leg also has another role, same with various other parts of the body. If any part refuses to play its role to the fullest the whole body would suffer, it would not be able to function the way it suppose to.

The body of Christ has a specific assignment on earth and each member as a part to play in order to fulfill this assignment. If any member get entangled with the world and neglect his role the whole body suffers and God is waiting for such on judgment day.

This is why Paul said:
"Some will use gold or silver or precious stones in building on the foundation; others will use wood or grass or straw. 13 And the quality of each person's work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it. For on that Day fire will reveal everyone's work; the fire will test it and show its real quality. 14 If what was built on the foundation survives the fire, the builder will receive a reward. 15 But if your work is burnt up, then you will lose it; but you yourself will be saved, as if you had escaped through the fire." (1Cor 3:12-15).

For true believers judgment day is not about whether we would be thrown to hell or go to heaven, for we are already citizens of heaven. Judgment day is about the body, have you truly been a member of the body and played your part in the eternal purpose or have you lived a selfish life, indulging the flesh and ignoring the body.

Many Christian would say when they are about to die they would quickly ask God to forgive their sins and make it to heaven. They think it is all about making it to heaven. You spend your Christian life indulging the flesh and you think you can escape it.

Such Christ would face fire on judgment. They neglect the body, thinking only about themselves and how they would escape hell and enter heaven. Yes they would make it to heaven but God is a righteous judge and He would deal with them for neglecting the body and not grow in Christ so that they would fulfill there part in the eternal purpose.

Hiswordxray:

You would be judged based on how much you fill your part as a member of the body not as an individual Christian. For Christians judgement is not based on how much you have been holy, the truth is that you are already holy by the blood of the Lamb. But we would be judged because each member of the body have a part to play.

The hand has a unique role, the leg also has another role, same with various other parts of the body. If any part refuses to play its role to the fullest the whole body would suffer, it would not be able to function the way it suppose to.

The body of Christ has a specific assignment on earth and each member as a part to play in order to fulfill this assignment. If any member get entangled with the world and neglect his role the whole body suffers and God is waiting for such on judgment day.

This is why Paul said:
"Some will use gold or silver or precious stones in building on the foundation; others will use wood or grass or straw. 13 And the quality of each person's work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it. For on that Day fire will reveal everyone's work; the fire will test it and show its real quality. 14 If what was built on the foundation survives the fire, the builder will receive a reward. 15 But if your work is burnt up, then you will lose it; but you yourself will be saved, as if you had escaped through the fire." (1Cor 3:12-15).

For true believers judgment day is not about whether we would be thrown to hell or go to heaven, for we are already citizens of heaven. Judgment day is about the body, have you truly been a member of the body and played your part in the eternal purpose or have you lived a selfish life, indulging the flesh and ignoring the body.

@ bolded, It's obvious you don't even understand your own argument.

Playing your part connotes an individualistic action.

menxer:


@ bolded, It's obvious you don't even understand your own argument.

Playing your part connotes an individualistic action.

Again, I'm not saying there is nothing like the individual. I have told you before that Christianity includes both the individual and the collective. We have focused too much on the individual side of it and ignore the collective. My point is that we are meant to focus on the collective even more than the individual.

Hiswordxray:

Again, I'm not saying there is nothing like the individual. I have told you before that Christianity includes both the individual and the collective. We have focused too much on the individual side of it and ignore the collective. My point is that we are meant to focus on the collective even more than the individual.

@bolded, ... And there lies the bone of contention.

It's said three is a crowd, Jesus was crucified with two others on the cross, are you saying they experienced the same spiritual "activation" because they were crucified together?

menxer:


@bolded, ... And there lies the bone of contention.

It's said three is a crowd, Jesus was crucified with two others on the cross, are you saying they experienced the same spiritual "activation" because they were crucified together?

I'm talking about the body of Christ, are the thieves the body of Christ? Of course no
But the body of Christ are meant to experience the suffering of the cross. That is why Paul said, "that I may know... the fellowship of his suffering, being conform to his death..." (Phi 3:10).

Hiswordxray:

I'm talking about the body of Christ, are the thieves the body of Christ? Of course no
But the body of Christ are meant to experience the suffering of the cross. That is why Paul said, "that I may know... the fellowship of his suffering, being conform to his death..." (Phi 3:10).

What you have failed to understand or notice is, all the quotes you quoted lay emphasis on individual experience as against collective experience, which is the crux of the thread.

Can't you see even your arguments defeat the proposition you started out to uphold and defend?

menxer:


What you have failed to understand or notice is, all the quotes you quoted lay emphasis on individual experience as against collective experience, which is the crux of the thread.

Can't you see even your arguments defeat the proposition you started out to uphold and defend?

Paul said he suffers death so that the rest of body can have life. The experience is not all about the individual but for the sake of the body, hence the collective is on emphasis.

Hiswordxray:

Paul said he suffers death so that the rest of body can have life. The experience is not all about the individual but for the sake of the body, hence the collective is on emphasis.

So Paul died that the body can have life?
That's a new one.

If you have someone whose opinion on spiritual matters you respect do discuss this with him/her.

Everyman to his own, if your personal spiritual evolution is dependent on the collective experience keep to it.

menxer:


So Paul died that the body can have life?
That's a new one.

If you have someone whose opinion on spiritual matters you respect do discuss this with him/her.

Everyman to his own, if your personal spiritual evolution is dependent on the collective experience keep to it.

I didn't say Paul died so that the body can have life. I said he suffered death, I was referring to this verse:

"So then death is working in us, but life in you." (2Cor 4:12).

Hiswordxray:

I didn't say Paul died so that the body can have life. I said he suffered death, I was referring to this verse:

"So then death is working in us, but life in you." (2Cor 4:12).

You said, "Paul said he suffers death so that the rest of body can have life"

See how you twist scripture to fit your definition in defense of collective experience?

Even if I concede that the "he" in the bolded does not refer to Paul, it still emphasizes the experience of death at the individual level not the collective.

menxer:


You said, "Paul said he suffers death so that the rest of body can have life"

See how you twist scripture to fit your definition in defense of collective experience?

Even if I concede that the "he" in the bolded does not refer to Paul, it still emphasizes the experience of death at the individual level not the collective.

The verse was talking about the suffering of persecution that is why I used the word "Paul suffered death". And I'm sure you don't know the meaning of death that's why you couldn't understand. There are many things you can't understand dear, this is why you need to know God. So stop trying to prove me wrong and focus on knowing your Lord.