Mavenb0x, since you have been reluctant to start this thread as you promised, please can you spare us some time and tell us about

God's business enterprise project with respect to human capital development?

Other contributors (especially Viaro, expounder of mysteries ) are also VERY welcome. People, please don't keep us waiting.

Thanks!

I hope this has nothing to do with God's private jets. . ._{oyedepo, adeboye & co}

Private jets? Laff no go kill me o,  I don't think so. Deep Sight, please share your own views while Mavenb0x boots we wait for Mavenb0x.

Views on what? Wealth?

I am currently striving to conclude a million-dollar project, but Jesus has assured me that the excessively rich may be materialistic and thus miss heaven. . .

_{Damn, i am goin to miss heaven. . .}

God has nothing to do with riches and can never make anyone rich.

You can only attain wealth through a combination of intelligence, hardwork and luck!

@Ancel:

Would that be interpreted as Boli and Epa that you're eating? I wonder if all the theories concerning that combine at Uni are grounded in reality.

@Tudor:
I doubt that one with such qualifications as your profile picture suggests and the belief that God ( and conscience) doesn't matter requires much of intelligence, hard-work or luck. Horizontal positioning would seem to do the trick in your case

nuclearboy:

@Tudor:
I doubt that one with such qualifications as your profile picture suggests and the belief that God ( and conscience) doesn't matter requires much of intelligence, hard-work or luck. Horizontal positioning would seem to do the trick in your case 

Could you please explain the above, i don't get it.

BTW, howz our pathfinder jeep? When are you taking me for a ride?

nuclearboy:

@Tudor:
I doubt that one with such qualifications as your profile picture suggests and the belief that God ( and conscience) doesn't matter requires much of intelligence, hard-work or luck. Horizontal positioning would seem to do the trick in your case 

Could you please explain the above, i don't get it.

BTW, howz our pathfinder jeep? When are you taking me for a ride?

Thanks for kickstarting the discussion, Ancel  Everyone, sorry for keeping you guys waiting. We proceed.

[center]God's business enterprise project with respect to human capital development[/center]

One mistake many of us here are making is the assumption that wealth means an immense monetary deposit. This is not necessarily so, although that is a popular example. If wealth were only an accumulation of monetary value without the upholding principles that sustain the value (such as furthermore-viable ideas), it will all come crashing down in a short while. Those guiding and upholding principles are in themselves, the wealth, and not the value. For example, all that Abraham really had was a promise, and the promise kept generating visible wealth for him. That was what he gave Isaac in turn, the root of the wealth, and not the visible wealth (which was what he gave Isaac’s step-brothers).

Gen 25:5  And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac.
Gen 25:6  But to the sons of his concubines [Hagar and Keturah] Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them to the east country, away from Isaac his son [of promise].

Wealth means an abundance of resources, the quality of profuse material abundance. Affluence in possessions and monetary wealth are just two examples of wealth. Indeed, a cursory glance at nature’s abundantly free riches will show us that, contrary to what Tudor said in the quote below, God is the ultimate source of wealth.

Tudór:

God has nothing to do with riches and can never make anyone rich.

You can only attain wealth through a combination of intelligence, hardwork and luck!

Now, I will paddle down into wealth with respect to enterprise solutions and human capital development, which is the nub of this discourse.

[size=13pt]Wealth is the result of creative ideas and truth.
Enterprise development is the synergy of ideas, truth and wealth.[/size]

[b]NO ONE succeeds without God, even if they do not acknowledge God as the source. [/b]At the base of every successful endeavour, God’s principle is always at work. Thus every success is of God, whether directly or implied. God’s principles constitute the greatest strategies of all time, being that the same principles in His mind engendered all that used to exist but are now extinct, all that currently exists, all that can exist but do not yet exist, and all that do not exist and will never exist. His Word is the blueprint for all of them.

Thus if a person pounces upon God’s principle and appropriates it in an instance, by chance or deliberately, the results will be outstanding. But the question is: why stand by the Atlantic Ocean and enjoy the scenery while washing your hands with spittle? If you can operate in accuracy, why rely on chance?

Since time began, God, the master strategist, has engaged himself in investment, real estate, training, consultancy, enterprise development, human capital development, strategy and financing. He is not religious, and he never wanted religion. Religion began because man fell into error and wickedness, and seeing his distance from God, man began trying to get back to God the same way a potted plant in a dark room will extend its tendrils in the direction of the slightest hint of an illumination, a thin ray of light piercing through a tiny slit in the window.

God considered man’s feeble attempts and decided to put an end to religion so that man could face the more important capital strategy, a joint project between God and man. Thus he reconciled us to himself in the form of Christ roughly 2000 years ago and expunged religion. For the potted plant I mentioned, that would be like illuminating the dark room with brilliant sunshine, so that the plant can focus on its photosynthesis and growth, rather than seeking out acceptance by a light source. We cannot continue to expect God to tolerate or favour religion, after he eradicated it in Christ.

Like the potted plant, we no longer have to seek a light source: the light is all around us now, and there are productive expectations that we are to live up to.

Whatever produces a phenomenon is also required to sustain it and prevent systemic chaos. Now, assuming the source is responsible and regular, that initial entity may choose not to tend to the product directly, but rather entrust the sustenance of the product to another entity, and empower it to ensure success.

In that light, I firmly put it to you that the Word of God works. It never fails because it is empowered by the very life of God, which has the unique quality that makes God God. Thus, for instance, it is poised to cause a Word-based and Word-sustained paradigm shift to transform the corporate world.

[center]To be continued. Please be patient. But you can ask questions on what I have posted so far, if you so desire.[/center]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it [using all its vast resources in the service of God and man]; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth.

The verse above refers only to dominion over fish, birds and other creatures; but those elements of nature are representative of all spheres of natural human experience. God expects a high-yield output from us (and now I do not refer to religious output), and for reference you can recall the Parable of the Sower.

This high-yield result is what the Bible mentions when it says that God has a glorious inheritance IN the saints.

Eph 1:18 By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints (His set-apart ones),
Eph 1:19 And [so that you can know and understand] what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength,
Eph 1:20 Which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His [own] right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 1:21 Far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named [above every title that can be conferred], not only in this age and in this world, but also in the age and the world which are to come.

Now I will post the parable of the vineyard, which will illuminate the position much better:

Mat 21:33 Listen to another parable: There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a hedge around it and dug a wine vat in it and built a watchtower. Then he let it out [for rent] to tenants and went into another country.
Mat 21:34 When the fruit season drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his [share of the] fruit.
Mat 21:35 But the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first time, and they treated them the same way.
Mat 21:37 Finally he sent his own son to them, saying, They will respect and give heed to my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, This is the heir; come on, let us kill him and have his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes back, what will he do to those tenants?
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, He will put those wretches to a miserable death and rent the vineyard to other tenants of such a character that they will give him the fruits promptly in their season. [Isa. 5:1-7.]

A lot of my views will be drawn from this simple parable, and backed up by other scripture. I have to leave in some few minutes, but let me say here that this is the simplest view of the answer to the question: Why are we here? We are the tenants on lease in the vineyard (earth) created by God, and he expects fruit from us. More on that later, questions are still welcome. I'm out.

P.S. Ancel or anybody else, if you feel I am not adequately dealing with the subject matter, please call me to order. I have been known to over-gist

Mavenbox:

You're doing just fine! Wealth is more the idea/motivating(?) behind the increase rather than the increase itself

@Tudor:

Its only a SUV. Considering your picture, to take you for a ride, I'd need an industrial truck with a bucket and crane-head to hold your jaws together seeing as you leave them yapping by default. Something like say, a 20 ton Hiab!   

Hmmm.

Mavenb0x:

Thus if a person pounces upon God’s principle and appropriates it in an instance, by chance or deliberately, the results will be outstanding. But the question is: why stand by the Atlantic Ocean and enjoy the scenery while washing your hands with spittle? If you can operate in accuracy, why rely on chance?

Since time began, God, the master strategist, has engaged himself in investment, real estate, training, consultancy, enterprise development, human capital development, strategy and financing. He is not religious, and he never wanted religion. Religion began because man fell into error and wickedness, and seeing his distance from God, man began trying to get back to God the same way a potted plant in a dark room will extend its tendrils in the direction of the slightest hint of an illumination, a thin ray of light piercing through a tiny slit in the window.

God considered man’s feeble attempts and decided to put an end to religion so that man could face the more important capital strategy, a joint project between God and man. Thus he reconciled us to himself in the form of Christ roughly 2000 years ago and expunged religion. For the potted plant I mentioned, that would be like illuminating the dark room with brilliant sunshine, so that the plant can focus on its photosynthesis and growth, rather than seeking out acceptance by a light source. We cannot continue to expect God to tolerate or favour religion, after he eradicated it in Christ.

Like the potted plant, we no longer have to seek a light source: the light is all around us now, and there are productive expectations that we are to live up to.

Mavenb0x, can you shed light on the above? Because it appears that there are brilliant enterprises of capital and human development in which the human agents ignore God. Some even reject him thoroughly?

Just like nuclearboy, I think you are on track  . But you need to finish up. 

There's boli and epa in here? why didn't someone add that to the title?

There are many interesting points in here . . . I will be back.

JeSoul my sister, you are highly welcome! Please let it all out I can hardly wait. Seriously!

Maven what do you make of manifestly evil persons (i:e - Alhaji Lamidi Adedibu, the late strongman of Ibadan Politics, or Babangida, or a particular Russian Oligarch who bought a premiership club) whose wealth creates jobs and hope for millions of families across the world?

Basically, do you think knowing God, or the grace of God has anything to do with wealth or particularly the function of spreading wealth and a livelihood to those who need it?

_{Just a question, as i personally believe in the Grace of God in all things.}

Deep Sight and ancel: the ancel to your questions requires some deep sight. Lol. Ok i will respond when i get to my desk, typing on mobile is a real pain. For starters, my answer is midway between the vineyard parable I mentioned, and the events at Eden (lest you dismiss it as myth, this is not about any tree-fruit). Catch ya!

Look at all them deluded people hoping to get rich. . . God's business enterprise and human capital development indeed.

If you like don't go to school and get an MBA but keep reading ancient scrolls and senseless posts on an internet forum. When asked for your qualifications be sure to inform them you're a graduate of God's business school, nairaland satellite campus. . .mumus

lol@God's business school. you guys are killing me

@Tudor: Must you really be such an attention-seeking troll? Where's your civility? I bet you would say God does not even exist or maybe has nothing to do with human success or something, so why are you bothering to comment on this thread? Leave it for us deluded people who are reading ancient scrolls and senseless internet forum posts in a bid to get heavenly MBAs. Mumus will always be mumus, and I will gladly self-vilipend as a mumu if that will satisfy you; so please carry your wahala go another thread. We are having a discussion here, and if you think it is of no use to you, you don't really have to say anything. Ptschew.

@Everyone: I apologize for the delay. Been crazily busy. I proceed.

I may like to wrap up this thread quickly (rather than abandoning it for long and leaving the discussion hanging), unless there are questions that will further elongate the discussion.

I will begin by assuming we all understand the parable of the vineyard described above. Now I will discuss Eden: cradle of mankind.

I do not believe the Eden story is mythical, neither is it entirely historical. I think it is heavily typed in allegory, and I intend to describe, as best as I can, my understanding of that story.

God created Adam and placed him in Eden. When he "made Adam in his image", he empowered Adam to be to this realm, as He is to everything in its entirety. It was a kind of ambassadorial position.

I believe the Garden of Eden was not a "garden", but a metaphysical realm which was the primordial home of mankind. This realm also had a superposition on the physical realm and had direct access into the spiritual, so there were "layers", so to speak, of interaction between physical and spiritual entities. As such, I believe the "trees" in Eden were not necessarily green perenniaal woody plants, but were instead primordial entities of a kind: spiritual beings, if you may. There are many instances in the Bible in which human beings are likened to trees.

Eze 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

I believe that in Eden, these primordial beings were in control of numerous things, ranging from nature control to insight along the vast dimensions of human experience. In allegory, Adam was allowed to "eat" of any of the trees except one. i.e. he was allowed to utilize the primordial entities, who were subservient to him, in order to achieve his purposes. So, what then was that "tree of knowledge?".

The Hebrew word translated as knowledge is da'ath, and it means an awareness of endless possibilities. In particular, it describes that attribute of God that makes Him do things exactly the way He does them, in His own infinite knowledge. See other instances of the exact same word:

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord--

Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue [still unuttered], but, behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. [Heb. 4:13.]
Psa 139:5 You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
Psa 139:7 Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there. [Rom. 11:33.]


Job 21:22 Shall any teach God knowledge, seeing that He judges those who are on high? [Rom. 11:34; I Cor. 2:16.]

And the New Testament gives more insight into this, since God is the absolute embodiment of truth:
1Co 2:11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

That "tree of knowledge of Good and Evil" in Eden is a personification of the Holy Spirit. The "tree of life" is a personification of Jesus Christ in that primordial realm. The two trees were in the "center" of the garden, meaning that they were administratively in charge of the other spiritual entities that Adam was allowed to control.

What I sincerely believe is that, because of man's absolute power in Eden, he had been warned against the corruption of trying to USE the Holy Spirit the same way he was discretionally using the other spirits to achieve whatever he wanted to get done. The corruption was easy to fall for, because the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was keeping all the spiritual entities in check. So, if one could control that ONE tree, he would "be as God" himself.

Now, Lucifer, "the serpent".


Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the carnelian, topaz, jasper, chrysolite, beryl, onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and your settings and your sockets and engravings were wrought in gold. On the day that you were created they were prepared. [Gen. 3:14, 15; Isa. 14:12-15; Matt. 16:23.]
Eze 28:14 You were the anointed cherub that covers with overshadowing [wings], and I set you so. You were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire [like the paved work of gleaming sapphire stone upon which the God of Israel walked on Mount Sinai]. [Exod. 24:10.]
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you.
Eze 28:16 Through the abundance of your commerce you were filled with lawlessness and violence, and you sinned; therefore I cast you out as a profane thing from the mountain of God and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud and lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I lay you before kings, that they might gaze at you.


I believe Lucifer was a primordial being in Eden, and in this allegory, he was likened to a serpent due to the evil and cunning mischief.


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


In Isa 14:14 Lucifer wanted to "be like the most high" (see again Job 21:22 quoted somewhere above), but he wasn't able to do that without help. Yes, help from Adam. I strongly believe that the "eating" of the fruit that Adam and Eve did was to the effect of allowing some evil replicates of holy archetypes to come into existence. Adam and Eve played God by bypassing God's infinite knowledge and applying the "tree of knowledge" to their use. Thus, many good spiritual concepts were "fakened" by Lucifer, and till today there are many evil things that, with careful consideration, you will see, have very similar background spiritual principles, to the truth in God.

When man fell,

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


God didn't want man to take of eternal life in his sinful nature, because that would make for an eternal sinner. So he drove him out. And now, here is the crux of the discussion: I repeat v23


Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


To "till the ground from whence he was taken", I understand to mean that man was subjected to those same laws that had been under his control hitherto. Natural laws and necessary insight into hidden things were taken away from him. Now he had to "till the ground" himself.

But as always, God had a plan: he was going to send that same tree of life, but it would be on his own terms. Adam would eat of it again (Jesus did), die and then have access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Note the reversed trend).


Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


@Deep Sight: The people you mentioned, definitely have spiritual principles going for them. the question is, is it the pristine spiritual principles fashioned by God, or the mirrored evil copies operated by Lucifer cunningly obtained using Adam's authority?

@Ancel: I hope the questions are also answered.

Phew. Exhausted. Need to get some sleep. Cheers.

Mavenb0x:

@Tudor: Must you really be such an attention-seeking troll?

BELIEVE ME, If I were seeking attention it'll NEVER be from YOU or the kind of people who are excited and eagerly anticipating pointers on "Gods capital development and Business Enterprise" like its the solution to ALL their problems and grant them riches. . . I'd rather be found partying with brain-dead individuals in a psych ward.

So sister, DON'T FLATTER YOURSELF!

Where's your civility? I bet you would say God does not even exist or maybe has nothing to do with human success or something, so why are you bothering to comment on this thread? Leave it for us deluded people who are reading ancient scrolls and senseless internet forum posts in a bid to get heavenly MBAs. Mumus will always be mumus, and I will gladly self-vilipend as a mumu if that will satisfy you; so please carry your wahala go another thread. We are having a discussion here, and if you think it is of no use to you, you don't really have to say anything. Ptschew. 

@Everyone: I apologize for the delay. Been crazily busy. I proceed.

All these RANT because i decided to be REALISTIC and suggest business school?

Na wa for nigerians ooo. . . . They don't wanna fork out money for an MBA course and will gladly patronise any quack who claims to be a professor in havard spirit business school. . .

Tudór:

BELIEVE ME, If I were seeking attention it'll NEVER be from YOU or the kind of people who are excited and eagerly anticipating pointers on "Gods capital development and Business Enterprise" like its the solution to ALL their problems and grant them riches. . . I'd rather be found partying with brain-dead individuals in a psych ward.

This is a totally unnecessary post, I hope you know?

Tudór:

So sister, DON'T FLATTER YOURSELF!All these RANT because i decided to be REALISTIC and suggest business school?

Na wa for nigerians ooo. . . . They don't wanna fork out money for an MBA course and will gladly patronise any quack who claims to be a professor in havard spirit business school. . .

And where did I ever make such a claim? I never claimed to be an authority, this is a discussion forum for whatever's sake. I'm out.

Mavenb0x:

I may like to wrap up this thread quickly (rather than abandoning it for long and leaving the discussion hanging), unless there are questions that will further elongate the discussion.

I will begin by assuming we all understand the parable of the vineyard described above. Now I will discuss Eden: cradle of mankind.

I do not believe the Eden story is mythical, neither is it entirely historical. I think it is heavily typed in allegory, and I intend to describe, as best as I can, my understanding of that story.

God created Adam and placed him in Eden. When he "made Adam in his image", he empowered Adam to be to this realm, as He is to everything in its entirety. It was a kind of ambassadorial position.

I believe the Garden of Eden was not a "garden", but a metaphysical realm which was the primordial home of mankind. This realm also had a superposition on the physical realm and had direct access into the spiritual, so there were "layers", so to speak, of interaction between physical and spiritual entities. As such, I believe the "trees" in Eden were not necessarily green perenniaal woody plants, but were instead primordial entities of a kind: spiritual beings, if you may. There are many instances in the Bible in which human beings are likened to trees.

Eze 31:9  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

I believe that in Eden, these primordial beings were in control of numerous things, ranging from nature control to insight along the vast dimensions of human experience. In allegory, Adam was allowed to "eat" of any of the trees except one. i.e. he was allowed to utilize the primordial entities, who were subservient to him, in order to achieve his purposes. So, what then was that "tree of knowledge?".

The Hebrew word translated as knowledge is da'ath, and it means an awareness of endless possibilities. In particular, it describes that attribute of God that makes Him do things exactly the way He does them, in His own infinite knowledge. See other instances of the exact same word:

Isa 11:2  And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord--

Psa 139:4  For there is not a word in my tongue [still unuttered], but, behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. [Heb. 4:13.]
Psa 139:5  You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6  Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
Psa 139:7  Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there. [Rom. 11:33.]


Job 21:22  Shall any teach God knowledge, seeing that He judges those who are on high? [Rom. 11:34; I Cor. 2:16.]

And the New Testament gives more insight into this, since God is the absolute embodiment of truth:
1Co 2:11  For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:14  But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

That "tree of knowledge of Good and Evil" in Eden is a personification of the Holy Spirit. The "tree of life" is a personification of Jesus Christ in that primordial realm. The two trees were in the "center" of the garden, meaning that they were administratively in charge of the other spiritual entities that Adam was allowed to control.

What I sincerely believe is that, because of man's absolute power in Eden, he had been warned against the corruption of trying to USE the Holy Spirit the same way he was discretionally using the other spirits to achieve whatever he wanted to get done. The corruption was easy to fall for, because the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was keeping all the spiritual entities in check. So, if one could control that ONE tree, he would "be as God" himself.

Now, Lucifer, "the serpent".


Eze 28:13  You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the carnelian, topaz, jasper, chrysolite, beryl, onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and your settings and your sockets and engravings were wrought in gold. On the day that you were created they were prepared. [Gen. 3:14, 15; Isa. 14:12-15; Matt. 16:23.]
Eze 28:14  You were the anointed cherub that covers with overshadowing [wings], and I set you so. You were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire [like the paved work of gleaming sapphire stone upon which the God of Israel walked on Mount Sinai]. [Exod. 24:10.]
Eze 28:15  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you.
Eze 28:16  Through the abundance of your commerce you were filled with lawlessness and violence, and you sinned; therefore I cast you out as a profane thing from the mountain of God and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17  Your heart was proud and lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I lay you before kings, that they might gaze at you.


I believe Lucifer was a primordial being in Eden, and in this allegory, he was likened to a serpent due to the evil and cunning mischief.


Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


In Isa 14:14 Lucifer wanted to "be like the most high" (see again Job 21:22 quoted somewhere above), but he wasn't able to do that without help. Yes, help from Adam. I strongly believe that the "eating" of the fruit that Adam and Eve did was to the effect of allowing some evil replicates of holy archetypes to come into existence. Adam and Eve played God by bypassing God's infinite knowledge and applying the "tree of knowledge" to their use. Thus, many good spiritual concepts were "fakened" by Lucifer, and till today there are many evil things that, with careful consideration, you will see, have very similar background spiritual principles, to the truth in God.

When man fell,

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


God didn't want man to take of eternal life in his sinful nature, because that would make for an eternal sinner. So he drove him out. And now, here is the crux of the discussion: I repeat v23


Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


To "till the ground from whence he was taken", I understand to mean that man was subjected to those same laws that had been under his control hitherto. Natural laws and necessary insight into hidden things were taken away from him. Now he had to "till the ground" himself.

But as always, God had a plan: he was going to send that same tree of life, but it would be on his own terms. Adam would eat of it again (Jesus did), die and then have access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Note the reversed trend).


Joh 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


@Deep Sight: The people you mentioned, definitely have spiritual principles going for them. the question is, is it the pristine spiritual principles fashioned by God, or the mirrored evil copies operated by Lucifer cunningly obtained using Adam's authority?

@Ancel: I hope the questions are also answered.

Phew. Exhausted. Need to get some sleep. Cheers.

- Wow  . . . even this is way beyond me

@mavenbox

Am sorry but i think u really need to slow down with all these ideas cus at the end of the day they are just all still "ideas". Problems and heresy start creeping in wen we start trying to find the so called hidden truth. Even the Bible did not tell us that The Messiah taught people all that you seek to be teaching here . . .

Why not keep things simple and stick to only what the Bible says . . . other than trying to decipher what you think the Bible is saying . . .For example this metaphysical idea is nothing more than an addition and aan idea cus in reality the Bible does not say anything like that. And it requires faith to even believe in the metaphysical thingy . . . which means it requires faith in something outside of the bible . . . which then raises the question as to why we would want to put our faith in the wisdom of man rather than in something already so simple like the good news . . . . see where i am going with this.

Does this metaphysical thingy wingy add anything to the message of salvation . . . personally i don't think so hence its not right to include it to what the bible has already said.

Your analysis of some places are quite good . . . however this whole metaphysical thingy wingy is starting to creep me out . . .

One motto i have is that:

. . . IF THE CREATOR THOUGHT THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW IT IN ORDER TO BE REDEEMED THEN HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US . . .

Not telling us does not mean it might not exist and neither does it mean it might exist . . . nevertheless the bottomline is still that why add something we can't proof to the bible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Creator is supreme . . .hence there would always be things beyond our understanding . . . more so wen we are living in the flesh compromised by sin . . .and more so since Lucifer has an opportunity to use our own flesh against us.

Hence why it is dangerous to continue with the idea of trying to decipher so called hidden mysteries . . .

Mavenb0x:

This is a totally unnecessary post, I hope you know?

Err no its not. . .you claimed i was desperately seeking your attention, didn't you?

And where did I ever make such a claim? I never claimed to be an authority, this is a discussion forum for whatever's sake. I'm out.

Bye bye. . .stop misleading people

Amazing thread with amazing contributions and remarks. . whether good or bad, all things work together for . .? Lol.

Anyhow, let me quickly drop a few lines.

@ancel,

ancel:

Other contributors (especially Viaro, expounder of mysteries ) are also VERY welcome. People, please don't keep us waiting.

What? Who ever told thee that viaro is an expounder??
Anyways, I saw this thread in its inception but was way too busy and could not be online any earlier. I had no clue where it was heading, but it turned out to be delightful and a total surprise to me.


@commander nuclearboy,

nuclearboy:

Mavenbox:

You're doing just fine! Wealth is more the idea/motivating(?) behind the increase rather than the increase itself

Your honour, I concur - mavenbox at one of her finest. However, you made a summary about wealth that is pregnant with more gist than could fill this entire page. It is not just about material and/or other tangible possessions, but has more to do with stability in the inner man. An akin word is 'prosperity' - in this regard, not many people understand why a very prosperous person is not necessarily affected or controlled by circumstances or environment, such as Joseph who was described as a prosperous man whether he was in his master's house or while yet in prison (Gen. 39:2-3 & 23). The wealthy in this regard would be those who look out for the welfare of others rather than their own.

In all the things you said, dear mavenbox, perhaps this one needs a small review:

Mavenb0x:

[center]God's business enterprise project with respect to human capital development[/center]
. .>snip<. .
Wealth means an abundance of resources, the quality of profuse material abundance. Affluence in possessions and monetary wealth are just two examples of wealth. . .

Wealth is the result of creative ideas and truth.
Enterprise development is the synergy of ideas, truth and wealth.

NO ONE succeeds without God, even if they do not acknowledge God as the source.

Although many principled people obtain their wealth through a combination of hardwork, creativity and 'truth', it is not necessarily the case with many, many others. The Bible shows us that very unscrupulous people who do not care about conscience or truth are quite wealthy. For example, there is such a thing as 'the prosperity of the wicked' (Psalm 73:3). That chapter alone (besides several others) quite simply demonstrates the fact that there are many unscrupulous fellows who are quite wealthy: even though they are 'corrupt, and speak wickedly'^v.8, they still have 'more than heart could wish'^v.7. Then on to verse 12 that captures it all: "these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches". Do such fellows care about a scenario where creativity kisses 'truth' and scruples?

This is not to say that godly people cannot be wealthy, rich or prosperous. What I'm particular about is that there ought to be a balance in this things in order to capture the bigger picture where the essence of life comes to the fore. Presently, I'm quite occupied to make a post on this 'essence' (the 'gist' of life for the Godly); but suffice to say that Luke 12:21 seems to readily hold the kernel - "So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

There are good points you highlighted in your subsequent post, especially as regards your understanding/perspective on Eden. This one stands out:

Mavenb0x:

I do not believe the Eden story is mythical, neither is it entirely historical. I think it is heavily typed in allegory, and I intend to describe, as best as I can, my understanding of that story. . .

I believe the Garden of Eden was not a "garden", but a metaphysical realm which was the primordial home of mankind. This realm also had a superposition on the physical realm and had direct access into the spiritual, so there were "layers", so to speak, of interaction between physical and spiritual entities. As such, I believe the "trees" in Eden were not necessarily green perenniaal woody plants, but were instead primordial entities of a kind: spiritual beings, if you may. There are many instances in the Bible in which human beings are likened to trees.

Eze 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

That's fine, no worries - as long as that's the perspective from which you proceeded to set forth your ideas. Although the prophet Ezekiel most probably was speaking prophetically and thus allegorically, we could not from that make the same stretch of application to Eden in Genesis. I don't know; but I have my reasons.

Nonetheless, it was this next one that got me screwed:

That "tree of knowledge of Good and Evil" in Eden is a personification of the Holy Spirit. The "tree of life" is a personification of Jesus Christ in that primordial realm. The two trees were in the "center" of the garden, meaning that they were administratively in charge of the other spiritual entities that Adam was allowed to control.

Oh shooks! The highlighted is what I call a 'red statement' and is exegetically flawed. If we are to follow that idea about 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil' as in yours, my question is this: why would Adam's partaking of the Holy Spirit result in DEATH? Genesis 2:7 says concerning that same tree: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" - was God making allusion to Adam that he would die in the very day he partook of the Holy Spirit? It just screws up the whole thing for me.

These are just my observations. Wish I had time on my hands to settle down and grow this thread, but from another perspective.

@No2Atheism,

Yes, it's viaro addressing you. I came across to you as a ruffian in the other thread where you sought to know a bit more about me. I apologise, and please don't let that affect or colour your mind about what I'd say with regards to your post above.

No2Atheism:

Why not keep things simple and stick to only what the Bible says . . . other than trying to decipher what you think the Bible is saying

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to decipher the message of the Bible. Many people (more so Christians) struggle with the message of the first book of the Bible - Genesis; and if one has to carefully think through what we read there, we would find very intriguing things in the very first chapter alone! We should learn to appreciate the perspectives of other thinkers and yet be well grounded in the essentials to know how to weigh the inferences that are being presented to us, don't you think?

Does this metaphysical thingy wingy add anything to the message of salvation . . . personally i don't think so hence its not right to include it to what the bible has already said.

While many of us with an evangelical leaning would always look out for 'salvation' in any Christian post or discussions, it ought not to be the one thing that undergirds our discourses. Salvation is important; but there are many things we read about in the Bible itself that would leave you scratching our heads as to how they 'add anything to the message of salvation'.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, which both in themselves are not evil. As tools to understanding the world, our existence, our faith and/or our salvation, they are indispensable - theology today would rather be so empty without a philosophy of any kind. The one thing that sets them out is that our faith and Christian worldview are not predicated on philosophy - which is why the Bible warns us: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (2 Cor. 2:8).

Anyways, I hope this will be something for your consideration.

Maven, haba! na wetin now? Just when I thought I had a good grasp on the thread you go and drop that last dessertation. You've just set back my response by another full day 

  . . . anyways, lemme go and read.

God knows that when I was about to post this Eden gist, I had emotional reluctance, but no spiritual reservation. I knew many people will vehemently disagree. I apologize in arrears. 

For the record, I never meant that those two trees in the center of Eden were Jesus and the Holy Spirit. What I meant was that the attributes imbued upon them are found in the persons of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

@No2Atheism: Please believe me when I say that this is my own personal revelation, and it isn't like I'm trying to fit something into the Word of God. I kept saying "I believe that" and not "It is so" or something like that because the only "proof" I can tender is inside me. But hey, assume its all false, but look on the brighter side:

Assume the Eden story is altogether literal. The nub of my gist here is that Adam's sin by virtue of disobedience with respect to the forbidden fruit caused "thorns and thistles" to come out of the "ground", and that was when Adam handed over the "controls" to the devil.

My express description of Eden the way I understand it, is to dispel the notion that it is an irrelevant mythical story, and has no consequential effect on natural man and the way the world turned out. The interpretation is not as important as the essence of what I'm portraying, I believe. Thanks!

@Viaro: Okay, for the sake of clarification I need to say this: Do not forget that from the definition of "knowledge" in the name of that tree, it is all-encompassing and I can refer to it as the all-knowing mind. I know no other such mind. I also strongly believe that "eating" the fruit of a tree, to be allegorically correct, would mean attaining a commanding or condescending position over it (Jesus and the stubborn fig tree?). Think about it. Does that remind you of grievance against the Holy Spirit? Ok, if it does not, suffice it to say that the death that God said man would experience, is not because of eating the fruit per se, but rather due to DISOBEDIENCE. Their act of disobedience was what caused the death, as you know God judges intents and purposes and not only actions. However, I agree to disagree with you. 

And as for the prosperity of the wicked, I hope you realize that any fool can climb a ladder to get into a tower? True success entails understanding the walls of the tower, the ladder and how to climb it. The ladder is the principle, the walls are made of wisdom and the procedure is the active will of the man. When you lean the wrong ladder against wisdom, it will collapse under your weight, but if the ladder is in place, the man may climb. If the climb is improperly done, may the man not also slip and fall? The wicked man has his principles too, and he sticks to them like a postage stamp, sometimes they even do that better than Christians (which was why Jesus said he sent us out as sheep among wolves: wolves are generally seen as much more organized and smarter). And he has his sort of wisdom too. There is no "prospering wicked" that does stuff shabbily, but their end is certain. Remember the parable of the rich fool? Thanks, bro.

@JeSoul: *sigh* Sorry about that, sister. You know what? Everytime I see your posts I remember to keep my posts impactful and pithy. It's just that I hardly have time to organize my thoughts nowadays, so I write as my thoughts form in my head. You just gave me a reminder again: stick to the main topic! Yes ma'am 

Mavenb0x:

@JeSoul: *sigh* Sorry about that, sister. You know what? Everytime I see your posts I remember to keep my posts impactful and pithy. It's just that I hardly have time to organize my thoughts nowadays, so I write as my thoughts form in my head. You just gave me a reminder again: stick to the main topic! Yes ma'am

Oh no you gat it wrong. Some thoughts require extensive descriptions and analysis - which is the case with most of your posts - and I ain't smacking on that at all! lol. I just have limited disposable e-time and my [i]attention span [/i]is like that of a restless wanderer lol
 
  But please, don't worry about length, I have no issues reading long as it is a good piece and this is! trust me, I cannot wait to dive into it and put myself in your spiritual shoes on this eden matter. Cheers! 

Mavenb0x:

God knows that when I was about to post this Eden gist, I had emotional reluctance, but no spiritual reservation. I knew many people will vehemently disagree. I apologize in arrears. 

Hello Maven. Lol, I don't think there was a need to apologise - in arrears or advance. It was your personal understanding, and we can appreciate what you have posted on that basis.

For the record, I never meant that those two trees in the center of Eden were Jesus and the Holy Spirit. What I meant was that the attributes imbued upon them are found in the persons of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Well, I don't know (and I take back any misconceptions that my previous comments might have produced). I just wonder about the highlighted - that the attributes imbued upon the trees are found in the persons of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It makes me begin to think a lil deeper as to what to make of those trees if they are imbued in the way you described.

@Viaro: Okay, for the sake of clarification I need to say this: Do not forget that from the definition of "knowledge" in the name of that tree, it is all-encompassing and I can refer to it as the all-knowing mind. I know no other such mind.

No worries. The thing for me is that such an explanation again brings several questions to the fore; one of which is whether Adam and Eve knew absolutely nothing or were oblivious of anything around them in the real world before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree is said to be not just of 'knowledge', but of such knowledge of good and evil. Would that imply that this-'all-knowing mind'-tree would produce death upon Adam's participation?

I also strongly believe that "eating" the fruit of a tree, to be allegorically correct, would mean attaining a commanding or condescending position over it (Jesus and the stubborn fig tree?). Think about it. Does that remind you of grievance against the Holy Spirit?

Nope. The allegory does not fit at all - I'd rather say it's another red statement. 'Eating' of the tree as in Adam's case would produce nothing other than DEATH. However, partaking of the Holy Spirit (or even 'the mind of Christ' or 'mind of God' in allegorical terms) is not said to produce death. .  but LIFE. I don't know of any instance that deviates from that premise.

Ok, if it does not, suffice it to say that the death that God said man would experience, is not because of eating the fruit per se, but rather due to DISOBEDIENCE. Their act of disobedience was what caused the death, as you know God judges intents and purposes and not only actions. However, I agree to disagree with you. 

Yes, I solidly agree with you that it was the act of disobedience that brought about the Fall, and not just 'eating' of any tree. We are not even sure that Adam ate of EVERY tree in the Garden even though God had commanded that he may do so (Gen. 2:16) - yet, not doing precisely so in EVERY detail does not constitute disobedience.

However, the allegory you drew between the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Divine Persons of the Godhead (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) does not seem to quite hold. But there again, we could just disagree on these red statements even though further light is not forthcoming.

And as for the prosperity of the wicked, I hope you realize that any fool can climb a ladder to get into a tower? True success entails understanding the walls of the tower, the ladder and how to climb it. The ladder is the principle, the walls are made of wisdom and the procedure is the active will of the man. When you lean the wrong ladder against wisdom, it will collapse under your weight, but if the ladder is in place, the man may climb. If the climb is improperly done, may the man not also slip and fall? The wicked man has his principles too, and he sticks to them like a postage stamp, sometimes they even do that better than Christians (which was why Jesus said he sent us out as sheep among wolves: wolves are generally seen as much more organized and smarter). And he has his sort of wisdom too. There is no "prospering wicked" that does stuff shabbily, but their end is certain. Remember the parable of the rich fool? Thanks, bro.

Haha. That's a good one. I was just concerned that some of us might tend to miss the balance and think in linear terms that "NO ONE succeeds without God". That is quite a statement, and it is a naked truth that the ungodly actually suceed WITHOUT God. Otherwise, why would God judge the ungodly when He is the same One behind their success?

Bless up.

JeSoul:

Oh no you gat it wrong. Some thoughts require extensive descriptions and analysis - which is the case with most of your posts - and I ain't smacking on that at all! lol. I just have limited disposable e-time and my attention span [/i]is like that of a[b] restless wanderer lol[/b]
 
  But please, don't worry about length, I have no issues reading long as it is a good piece and this is! trust me, I cannot wait to dive into it and put myself in your spiritual shoes on this eden matter. Cheers! 

- Abeg let it not be like that of a restless wanderer. . . o o o

- You know the trauma I am already going through as a result of my own wandering mind . . . hence an advice from a brother to a sister. . . do not allow ur attention span be like that of a restless wanderer like me . . .

- you know u are my shrink . . .   . . .abeg stay sane so that those of us like me who are insane (and with many sorrows   ) can have someone to talk to . . .   . . . for the treatment of our insanity and sorrows .

Mavenb0x:


@No2Atheism: Please believe me when I say that this is my own personal revelation, and it isn't like I'm trying to fit something into the Word of God. I kept saying "I believe that" and not "It is so" or something like that because the only "proof" I can tender is inside me. But hey, assume its all false, but look on the brighter side:

Assume the Eden story is altogether literal. The nub of my gist here is that Adam's sin by virtue of disobedience with respect to the forbidden fruit caused "thorns and thistles" to come out of the "ground", and that was when Adam handed over the "controls" to the devil.

My express description of Eden the way I understand it, is to dispel the notion that it is an irrelevant mythical story, and has no consequential effect on natural man and the way the world turned out. The interpretation is not as important as the essence of what I'm portraying, I believe. Thanks!

- Okay no problem . . .

- I am just trying to advice as someone who is also prone to over analysis issues . . . hence I don't want you to fall into the same pit-falls that I have . . . I can authoritatively tell u that much study and intellectual understanding of the word does not automatically bring peace .  Hence why i hope u can be careful . . .

viaro:

@No2Atheism,

Yes, it's viaro addressing you. I came across to you as a ruffian in the other thread where you sought to know a bit more about me. I apologise, and please don't let that affect or colour your mind about what I'd say with regards to your post above.
I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to decipher the message of the Bible. Many people (more so Christians) struggle with the message of the first book of the Bible - Genesis; and if one has to carefully think through what we read there, we would find very intriguing things in the very first chapter alone! We should learn to appreciate the perspectives of other thinkers and yet be well grounded in the essentials to know how to weigh the inferences that are being presented to us, don't you think?
While many of us with an evangelical leaning would always look out for 'salvation' in any Christian post or discussions, it ought not to be the one thing that undergirds our discourses. Salvation is important; but there are many things we read about in the Bible itself that would leave you scratching our heads as to how they 'add anything to the message of salvation'.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, which both in themselves are not evil. As tools to understanding the world, our existence, our faith and/or our salvation, they are indispensable - theology today would rather be so empty without a philosophy of any kind. The one thing that sets them out is that our faith and Christian worldview are not predicated on [i]philosophy - which is why the Bible warns us: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (2 Cor. 2:8).

Anyways, I hope this will be something for your consideration.

Okay . . . apologies accepted.