^Max, "theological differences" - understood, sorry I misunderstood.

MyJoe,
I reckon with the strongest of reckonings - that after the dust settles from evaluations, and analyses, and re-evaluations, that I will always believe Jesus came and died for my sins. I believe it as strongly today as I did 10 clicks ago and as I will 100 clicks from now - if I'm still around .

MyJoe:

The rate at which you churn out New Words and Phrases I haven't a clue what they mean. . . I think I will start compiling a book out of them to be titled – The Mysterious Phrases of JeSoul.

Lol . . . I dare you to find two of such phrases on this thread . If anyone is guilty of mysterious phrases, just come over to the movie section and try understanding a conversation between Max, Vesc and Spikedcylinder.

JeSoul. I feel like listening to you play your guitar. And you flatter me too much. I'm not saying you should flatter me small either.

Deepsight has a statistical point. But then religion is irrelevant because most adherents of a religion do not practice it to the letter. There are many nominal Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. And if there were such a thing as the right religion, I don't think up to 2% of that religion will be TRUE believers in that 'true' religion. Finito.

About the question you guys are asking Max, I have a small answer that I'll post later when I can form my thoughts. My problems don't stop at Paul's teachings. I believe some of the 'apostles' are honestly mistaken about some things they write about. . . . . . and that's not taking into account the things they 'wrote' that they probably never had anything to with.

I think Noetic and Max got off on the wrong foot. Or maybe it's because they understand each other perfectly but I know Max and it seems JeSoul knows Noetic. Make una no fight.

Max. Do you have a thing for serial killers? Why, you named three! Haba! I confess that I'm fascinated by them but not their acts o. Just would like to dismantle their brains and know what shorted. Off topic. I noticed JeSoul is the new mod here. Damn! That's like what, 6million Get Out Of Jail Free cards. Whoo. I'm dizzy.

@ Mad_Max
So I noticed. But you gave just one solid objective mode of separation - the findings of credible scholars, which, it must be noted, you say do not tell you what to believe, but help in the sorting process. The reason I expected you to answer Krayola here is, I think, quite obvious - the gospels do not score higher than Pauline letters with the scholars. In fact, they are more controversial.

JeSoul:

MyJoe,
   I reckon with the strongest of reckonings - that after the dust settles from evaluations, and analyses, and re-evaluations, that I will always believe Jesus came and died for my sins. I believe it as strongly today as I did 10 clicks ago and as I will 100 clicks from now - if I'm still around .

Good.

JeSoul:
Lol . . . I dare you to find two of such phrases on this thread  .

Seen quite a few today, actually. Maybe I'm getting old and can't get a hang of new words!

JeSoul:
If anyone is guilty of mysterious phrases, just come over to the movie section and try understanding a conversation between Max, Vesc and Spikedcylinder.

So that's the secret! Not much of a movie person, but I recently started doing a bit of Bollywood _{*don't laugh*} and am now occasionally sighted in front of the set watching a handsome chap and a beautiful lady (check out Aishwarya Rai) dancing round and holding hands. Watch out for my Hindi phrases from now. 

MyJoe has got it on the head o. Absolutely. I find myself wondering as you wonder now about Max' relative endorsement of the other gospels. Maybe she's just a human being that has come to her own conclusions and it just so happens that Paul pops up anywhere she has a problem with the bible. Maybe she thinks there are mistakes and misleading or doctored information throughout the entire bible but she takes exception to Paul because she feels he's a self proclaimed prophet and the other apostles don't even call themselves that at all, so for a given misinformation, one will be error of judgement and the other will be deliberate propaganda. I hope I make sense.

vescucci:

JeSoul. I feel like listening to you play your guitar. And you flatter me too much. I'm not saying you should flatter me small either.

Lol. Then guitar it is. I am composing a song just for you tonight. But it will be only 6 bars long . . . micro crush abi? remember I have the memory of a maliced elephant? 

I think Noetic and Max got off on the wrong foot. Or maybe it's because they understand each other perfectly but I know Max and it seems JeSoul knows Noetic. Make una no fight.

Actually far from it lol, I don't get Noetic, but I know he's passionate and when he gets into an argument he gets really hot.

Off topic. I noticed JeSoul is the new mod here. Damn! That's like what, 6million Get Out Of Jail Free cards. Whoo. I'm dizzy.

Correction mister, 6 million AND 1  .

---

MyJoe:

@ Mad_Max
So I noticed. But you gave just one solid objective mode of separation - the findings of credible scholars, which, it must be noted, you say do not tell you what to believe, but help in the sorting process. The reason I expected you to answer Krayola here is, I think, quite obvious - the gospels do not score higher than Pauline letters with the scholars. In fact, they are more controversial.

Very good Joe. I'm sure Max will reply soon and I like Vesc's response too below:

vescucci:

MyJoe has got it on the head o. Absolutely. I find myself wondering as you wonder now about Max' relative endorsement of the other gospels. Maybe she's just a human being that has come to her own conclusions and it just so happens that Paul pops up anywhere she has a problem with the bible. Maybe she thinks there are mistakes and misleading or doctored information throughout the entire bible but she takes exception to Paul because she feels he's a self proclaimed prophet and the other apostles don't even call themselves that at all, so for a given misinformation, one will be error of judgement and the other will be deliberate propaganda. I hope I make sense.

Could very well be.

---

MyJoe:
So that's the secret! Not much of a movie person, but I recently started doing a bit of Bollywood _{*don't laugh*} and am now occasionally sighted in front of the set watching a handsome chap and a beautiful lady (check out Aishwarya Rai) dancing round and holding hands. Watch out for my Hindi phrases from now.

sorry, already did. MyJoe a bollywood dude? no way . . . hmm . . . मैं हिन्दी लिंगौ भाषा का बाढ़ के लिए तैयार हूँ

Haba. Your cup is micro full na and not macro empty. Lol. I'm a student of logic. One of my many pet interests. You're either a maliced elephant or you're not. If you aren't, my calling you so doesn't make you one. If you are, my calling you so shouldn't offend you especially when I'm praising your exceptional ability of recall. Hope I'm off the hook and off topic. That's what now? Back to 6million cards eh?

P.S. I'm expecting my 6 bars. In mp3 format too

@Vesc
Noetic's okay. He can't separate the argument from the person, attacks both, gets a little carried away and turns rude and infantile. We can be hostile to whoever or whatever challenges deep or cherished beliefs. I used to get FURIOUS at people who talked what I perceived to be heresy. I hated them and wanted to shut other people's ears before they were corrupted by false doctrine.That was a while back. This is a discussion board and everyone conducted themselves with good manners. What's his excuse?

@myjoe
I have answered that question exhaustively and 'longly'. You say I gave just one 'credible' method lol, how many methods do you want and what might these methods be?

@JS
You refer to Matthew 7:13-14 
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

There are alternative gates through which people enter somewhere, one narrow and leads to life, one broad and leading to destruction. What do you think the narrow gate and the broad gate is? Just curious about what you think, given the entirety of His sermon there. What's the narrow gate that leads to life, and the broad gate that leads to destruction, and where exadtly are people 'entering' from those gates? Or perhaps the roads themselves are the destination? What did you mean when you quoted this verse, and what's spiritual right and wrong? I'm truly curious, not looking for an argument of any sort.

Don't you snooze on a weekend? Be lazy for once na. Don't look at me cuz I have an excuse

Noetic is passionate is what he is. I never used to come to religion cuz everybody seemed to be at everyone's throats and it's like crime to have a point of view. I dunno what happened to all the mobs

I will look at d topic from diff angle.Over d yrs,it has generated alot of war of words btw both liberal&conservative bible scholars.Amongs them is Prof Nell the anti-paul who said most of what the OP said in many books he wrote on the topic.In Gal4:4-6 Paul said BUT WHEN D FULNESS OF TIME WAS COME,GOD SENT HIS SON 'MADE' OF A WOMAN UNDER D LAW. NB 'MADE' is diff from born.In Matt 11:11 jesus spoke about john the baptist&used made of a woman.The word made connotes Jesus biological conception&not birth.Paul said further that Jesus was made under the law,affirming Jesus was by parentage a member of the nation of israel. That Paul knew not/spoke not about Jesus is incorrect,but one may say he spoke little about the birth.

I've never heard of Prof. Nell, but he sounds like someone to stay away from. A biased,as opposed to impartial scholars, with an ax to grind. Whatever he says will likely be slanted and sometimes ridiculous in an effort to buttress his claims.

vescucci:

MyJoe has got it on the head o. Absolutely. I find myself wondering as you wonder now about Max' relative endorsement of the other gospels. Maybe she's just a human being that has come to her own conclusions and it just so happens that Paul pops up anywhere she has a problem with the bible. Maybe she thinks there are mistakes and misleading or doctored information throughout the entire bible but she takes exception to Paul because she feels he's a self proclaimed prophet and the other apostles don't even call themselves that at all, so for a given misinformation, one will be error of judgement and the other will be deliberate propaganda. I hope I make sense.

I have no problem with anything Christ taught. Or his apostles for that matter. It's in harmony with who He is.Why should it be only the things Paul writes I'll 'have a problem with'? Why only him, why isn't contrary teaching spread throughout what ALL of them says? Why does no one else write ANYTHING contrary to ANYTHING Christ taught, only Paul? If you're going to say all the contrary doctrine were 'added' to his letters, prove it. I'll be happy to take a look. The other books were tampered with too. Why wasn't contrary teaching 'added' to the others, ONLY HIS? Who happened to add all these contrary teachings to his letters alone, and to what end? Nothing of the sort has been determined.

To what  controversies do Myjoe refer? What does 'score higher' mean? The books of the NT have been authenticated with a fair degree of accuracy. I think the only NT book whose author remains unknown is Hebrews. The additions are being sorted out. Everything from Mark 16:9 to the end is an addition. Most bible versions tell you this. These are the work of diligent scholars, going on for centuries. They do know what they're doing. Paul did write those letters, sometimes dictating it orally. Some of the  apostles wrote some, dictated some. ALL the apostles wrote gospels except Judas. Mary Madgalene, Joseph of Arimathea, many others. Where are their gospels in the bible? Some of the so-called Lost Books of the bible have been authenticated, like the Book of Jubilee, dated the BC 150 I think. Others have been proven to be false, like the Gospel of Judas, written 2-300 years after the death of Christ. These people didn't know methods would emerge to test the validity of their writings, to date them, and these things are often very easy for scholars to authenticate or disprove. It is the doctrines themselves, all those additions and other things that are the problem.

Scrolls keep being discovered all over the Middle East. These are extremely valuable because they weren't under Vatican control for over a thousand years and haven't been tampered with. These are originals. It doesn't mean they're accurate or that the proclaimed author actually wrote it, but they're scrolls in their orginal form, the actual original writings, not copies. They're valuable as sources of information about historical events, and as points of comparison between what's written in the bible at the same point in history. Recall there are different bibles with diverse numbers of books, from the Catholic and Protestant bibles to the Greek Orthodix and Ethiopian bible. The Vatican claims the originals of the bible have been lost. Honestly, their vault should be raided and all the scrolls hidden there, all the gospels of the others, brought out and examined. So much was written and so little released. And the Dead Sea scrolls, how many centuries do they want to take to translate that? Taken far too long. Though mostly OT, there are some interesting contemporary snippets.

JeSoul:


MyJoe,
I reckon with the strongest of reckonings - that after the dust settles from evaluations, and analyses, and re-evaluations, that I will always believe Jesus came and died for my sins. I believe it as strongly today as I did 10 clicks ago and as I will 100 clicks from now - if I'm still around .

If this is not non-contingent theological definitism, i don't know what is.

Mad_Max:

I've never heard of Prof. Nell, but he sounds like someone to stay away from. A biased, as opposed to impartial scholars, with an ax to grind. Whatever he says will likely be slanted and sometimes ridiculous in an effort to prove his claims.

His name is Neal as against the Nell i posted above. Hes a Phd holder&very conservative christian.He criticized Paul&other non conservative christian for proving a case in Pauls favour. I think theres no new thing for us to Add on NL to this topic that have not been said as far back as year 2000 by great scholars&theologians for&against Pauline.

@Mad-Max. Lets look at Pauls case critically as far back as Acts. He was a strong Persecutionist of the christians before he was arrested by Christ.Cant we say the way he was called was pre-destinated by God,which was why he laboured more than the inner caucus of Christ?

One can conclude that Paul might have been more committed than the remaining 11 disciples that made all his epistles very relevant in the bible.

Neal is a conservative Christian? That's very surprising. Anti-Paulists tend to be open-minded, 'heretical', 'false' Christians. Which way was Paul called, the way that keeps changing every time he tells it? Predestination? What's that? Ah. The ones Christ personally selected are the inner Caucus, and Paul laboured more than they. How do you know he laboured more? The NT is full of his writings, and says little about what all the chosen apostles did, the extent of their work. In the few that are included, the apostles aren't full of vain boasting about their work. They don't talk about themselves at all. I think Paul used the word 'I' over 900 times in his included writings.

@ Madmax. In which thread did u state ur sources and why u think they are more credible than Paul? can u please provide a link? thanks

Im sure if other Apostles had written significant epistles like those of Paul,then it should have been recorded as part of the bible. John saw the Revelation from christ through Angels,we have 22chapters of it Recorded in the bible,because they are significant. To say the compilers were selective only to Pauls writings is absolutely unfair&unjust.

Sigh. I'm bored of this thread.

Lol, Max. I'm just trying to make excuses for you na.

These are the essentials of Paul's gospel about Jesus Christ.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.  For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.  For I am the least of all the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.  Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so you believed." -- 1 Cor. 15:1-11

That is the heart of the matter, anything else can then come as a result of making use of these essentials.

Simple&easily comprehendable response by Olaadegbu.
I dnt know what else Paul failed to know about Jesus.From the above,Pauls mandate was preach&teach on the Purpose of christs coming to the earth,which reconciliatory in nature&Salvation based. Paul said hes preach what he received/read about Jesus earthly mission,his birth,persecution,death&resurrection,which is the premise our faith is based on.Paul couldnt have taught about what he never knew about.Jesus in john4 told the samaritan woman on how not to worship what she knows nothing about.

vescucci:

Sigh. I'm bored of this thread. Lol, Max. I'm just trying to make excuses for you na.

They nailed you to the thread?

Krayola:

@ Madmax. In which thread did u state your sources and why u think they are more credible than Paul? can u please provide a link? thanks

I've no idea what you mean by more credible than Paul. Biblical books were written, almost all the authors have been determined, what was added to their writings have been and are being sorted out. We have the main text and gist of what they DID write. I answered that question a few posts above. I stated how I determine what to believe elsewhere. I gave an opinion on Paul and stated exactly why. They weren't pulled out of thin air. I made no unsubstiantated allegations. I've been hoping someone would produce evidence to prove they're false so I could have something to celebrate. Honestly, I'd be overjoyed. Round and round in circles when the charges against him remain unanswered. It doesn't matter what he was, really. He is merely a man and simply irrelevant.He's not the foundation of faith, Christ is. You're making me repeat myself. Off I go.

Mad_Max:

I've no idea what you mean by more credible than Paul. Biblical books were written, a[b]lmost all the authors have been determined, what was added to their writings have been and are being sorted out[/b].

That is inaccurate. . . . What authors do we know? And how can u hold Paul responsible for what people inserted into his writings?


EVen if it were, Paul's letters are the most reliable sources we have into the development of early Christianity. U can take that to the bank.  I'm not a fan of Paul. . . but anyone that dismisses his letters in favor of other books in the New Testament is lost, as far as looking for historical data goes.

Mad_Max:

I stated how I determine what to believe elsewhere.

Thats what I'm asking for, and all u have to do is provide a link. if u don't want to that is fine. But it is pretty clear, IMO, that u are avoiding that. Why?

Mad_Max:

I gave an opinion on Paul and stated exactly why. They weren't pulled out of thin air. I made no unsubstiantated allegations.

Pretty much all your allegations have been unsubstantiated. U quoted Paul asking someone to be kicked out of a church and left to satan, and called that an endorsement of what the catholic church did centuries after. Are u serious? u were really expecting anyone to respond to something that far-fetched?

Mad_Max:

I've been hoping someone would produce evidence to prove they're false so I could have something to celebrate. Honestly, I'd be overjoyed. Round and round in circles when the charges against him remain unanswered. It doesn't matter what he was, really. He is merely a man and simply irrelevant.He's not the foundation of faith, Christ is. You're making me repeat myself. Off I go.

U're just being dramatic IMO. U have said little of substance.

I'm sorry. I thought all the authors in the NT, apart from Hebrews, have been determined. I had no idea it was inaccurate. Who wrote what books in the NT?

Paul's letters are the most reliable sources into the development of early Christianity. I thought it was Luke who wrote Acts, which said more about that than all Paul's letters put together. And what has the development of early Christianity to do with the topic of your thread? I mentioned a text addition above. Mark 16:9-end. What was added to Paul's letters, and who added it?

Hmmmm. I didn't quote Paul saying someone should be kicked out of a church. I quoted him saying he should be handed over to Satan, and his flesh destroyed so his spirit may be saved. Pretty much what all the later stake burning was based upon. 'Sinners' and 'heretics' were taken to the stake and burned based on that doctrine. Many of the cleric sincerely believed they were saving these sinners and heretics's souls by burning their flesh. Most of them weren't acting out of malice but doctrinal belief based on a teaching of Paul's. The power of the Church was vast and absolute. They crowned Kings. They were not to be challenged or questioned. 'Heretics and 'sinners' weren't only those with contrary religious views, they were 'witches' and social revolutionaries as well. We live in times of religious freedom, so it might be hard to comprehend the horror under which people lived in those times. But the horror and the burnings were real, and went on and on for centuries.What is far-fetched about it? It's in your history books. Anyone with even an inkling of Church history can confim or debunk it. First you say the allegations against Paul were good reasons to doubt, 'IMO'. Then they're unsubstantiated. Make up your mind, will you?

You opened a thread asking for opinions. I gave mine. Simply give yours. As for the link, hmmm, I don't care to give it. I'm not the topic of your thread.

Im sure tommorrow when i get to church,there wouldnt be a time in the entire service where one of the epistles of Paul wouldnt be mentioned either in prayer or in sermon as a quote. I ve falling in love with TBN of late to improve my biblical knowledge.Though they do speak on the OT, but wouldnt end a teaching without at least a quote from Pauls epistle. The man Paul is very important in christendom

Yeah. I know. Two-thirds of the NT is full of his teachings. They overshadow other authors and books about what Christ and the apostles taught. There aren't many other places to quote from. That's just what was selected by the Church. It has nothing to do with his 'importance'. Who's TBN? This doesn't stop you from enjoying the man's teaching na. Or being full of faith.

Madam. Did Paul ever taught anything other than Jesus christ?

Mad_Max:

Yeah. I know. Two-thirds of the NT is full of his teachings. They overshadow other authors and books about what Christ and the apostles taught. There aren't many other places to quote from. That's just what was selected by the Church. It has nothing to do with his 'importance'. Who's TBN? This doesn't stop you from enjoying the man's teaching na. Or being full of faith.

e36991 at Mad_Max on April 22, 2010, 09:13 PM]

@Mad_Max

. . . I agree with Nick you on certain issues you highlighted hence the interest, enthusiasm & scrutiny

[/quote]

[quote author=Mad_Max at e36991:


. . . Accepted. Who's Nick?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-431942.64.html#msg5939414

Mad_Max:


Who's TBN?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-442151.64.html#msg6023926

@Mad_Max

To your unanswered "Who is Nick?" question

- Nick is the LibDems Leader

"I agree with Nick" was the political leaders' pre-election TV debate night's catchphrase that was banded about by Gordon & Cameron

To today's, your "Who is TBN?" question

- TBN is the acronym for Trinity Broadcasting Network; a 24 hrs Christian television programming station on satellite

toba:

Madam. Did Paul ever taught anything other than Jesus christ?

Toba, I'm sorry, can I just beg off here? I'm a little tired of the subject. I've stated a few of my objections  and a few instances of where his teaching and his conduct departs from Christ's and those of the apostles. That will just have to do. Paul studied under a highly respected Jewish theological scholar, Gamaliel, and was a Pharisee, so he already had a background in theology and much material to draw from. Christ makes references to the OT in his teaching, so of course some of their teaching will seem to agree. The differences between Paul's teachings and Christ's are so many, they can comprise a book on the subject. I won't go into it. I find things out for my own edification, not to prove anything. The rest anyone can find out for themselves and come to their own conclusions. Anyone can 'preach Christ'. Christ said not everyone who says Lord, Lord is His and will be welcomed by Him or enter His kingdom. I merely gave an opinion. Please don't ever go merely by what people say. You have God and God's spirit and that is enough.

@e36991
I see lol. I very rarely watch television.

Them no nail me for the thread. But it still bores me. Round and round. Max versus everybody else. Minus me though. Me, I'm only on my side. I'm all I've got. Krayola is the new Noetic.

One of the reasons I dislike the religious section. Some of them don't attack your argument, they attack you. They won't tolerate anything that diverges from their views or their cherished beliefs. Never mind there are thousands of divergent beliefs and most of us inherited them from the religion we happened to be born into, or from our parents. They believe a thing, so of course, that's how it must be. Their way is the way and their religion is the religion, and God is obligated to run the universe and judge creation according to their cherished beliefs.We all protect what we cherish. I understand it but I don't have to like it.

Will you stop with the noetic thing already? Spikie has bitten you again, abi? Or you've bitten Spikie. Something.

haha. Abeg o. I never attacked u. If I came across that way i apologize.


I've been watching soccer which is why i haven't responded. My team won so I'm goin to drink.

I'll respond to all ur posts later. It's work i was trying to avoid cause it seemed u were not willing to listen to anyone's views, but If u say u are I'll try and respond later.

I don't like Paul at all. . . just so u know. But i'm pretty sure a lot of ur views about him are misguided. It's just goin to take a lot to get that across and I honestly don't like Paul enough to put all that time into it. But I'll respond later.

Ok. Sorry Max. You have nerves after all.

Krayola doesn't like Paul. That's a shocker. Paul's either a true apostle or he's not. If you don't like him, it should be because you think he's false cuz if you don't like an apostle you KNOW to be true, I don't think you're a very good Christian then. Which is it Krayola?

I have decided not to say anything of substance here anymore but play part agent provocateur and part devil's advocate. It seems most of us have views. We say them. We say we don't expect anyone to see things our way or at least take our word for it. But we don't mean this cuz we still say what we think. And then, we do not really try to bring about a change of opinion in anyone. Now I'm wondering what is the point of it all cuz nobody has had a eureka moment since o.