MyJoe, as usual, you make very good points. I agree wholeheartedly with you that deceivers will be judged with the harshest of judgement - the bible even says that those who "teach" the gospel will be judged more harshly than those who listened. I think most people will agree that it is a terrible thing the way religion has abused onto selfish ends at the cost of millions of poor people.

MyJoe:

I would be more circumspect about blaming the victim, JeSoul. What we have here is a sighted man extending a hand to a blind man and then using his vantage position to to lead that one into a lion's pit.

Not quite. If you're talking about the verse, what we have are two blind men. One pretending to know the way and the other blindly (no pun intended) following.

Although Deepsight's tone may be harsh, he is hitting on the most important point I think - personal responsibility. As complicated as religion and spirituality is, and as crafty and skilled the deceivers are in manipulating it unto their own end, in the end - each man is responsible for himself - I think this is what DS is trying to say.

The deceivers are guilty, no doubt. But this goes back to a famous quote: no one can make you feel inferior without your permission. And in the same way, no one can deceive you without your permission. It starts with each man and it will end with each man. It is the same bible that says each will stand before God and answer for himself.

awww. . . I've really learnt a lot in this thread.

MyJoe:

I would be more circumspect about blaming the victim, JeSoul. What we have here is a sighted man extending a hand to a blind man and then using his vantage position to to lead that one into a lion's pit.
There are people who are incapable of reading the Bible.
Well, not everyone is capable of quiet introspection, either.

I understand your sentiments about people with herd mentality, but I think you need to reflect more on the nature of religion itself, the manner in which religious tenets are received, and the human mind. The human mind I am not smart enough to comprehend satisfactorily, but something is known of the first two. Religion is something you follow dogmatically – you don’t question it. That is the nature of religion. When people accept a system of worship, that is, a religion, they trust their lives to God and his “appointed servant”. This automatically creates a relationship based on trust between the “appointed servant” and the follower. This is why even the most intelligent people and people with Ph.D. fall for religious scam. The follower trusts the appointed servant relay the message from God correctly. If the “appointed servant” takes advantage of this position to deceive, I believe he should be held accountable for it.

The perpetrators of religious fraud are a determined lot. They know what they want and how to go about it. Folks stand no chance! Not only are they schooled in the art of deception, but they have access to the means of spreading their poisonous message. Let’s look at some of their methods. They take over the media and spurn stories of how people pay tithe and reap billions. Now, if they stop there you can blame your average Christian for lusting after lucre and thereby falling for the tithing scam. But they don’t! They go on to reel out stories of people who did not pay and had their warehouses razed by fire, came down with mysterious diseases, had their children expelled from school and generally declined. [/i]In other words, God gets positively angry and punishes you if you don’t pay your tithe.

It’s not about not reading their Bibles. I have been there. You read one verse, then listen to copious amounts of tape or read volumes written by the “servant” on that verse. He tells you what it says and gives you stories to back up his explanation. When verses contravening the doctrine are seen, they are glossed over.  Most people who attend tithing churches pay tithes. I had a Catholic friend who tithes regularly, having swallowed the message from the tithing wing of Christendom.

A potential recruit, you hear the message and realise your life has been full of problems all along and you wonder if it is because you have not found the secret which is now being revealed. You “give your life” and start paying tithe! Here is Justice Oyewole in his verdict on the infamous Rev King: [i]“The Nigerian society is already bogged down with myriads of problems ranging from poverty to corruption which has rendered many of its vulnerable elements susceptible to the wares of religious highway men such as the accused person here, who offered them stone for bread and scorpion when they demand for fish.”

The only person that is safe from the salesman of tainted spiritual goods is he that does not buy. Once you buy there is usually no room for selective consumption. The question of why people buy, I think, cannot be satisfactorily answered by anyone. What brings a man to accept a faith appears to be like what brings a man and a woman to together, keeps them together and tears them apart – it is unknown.

Religious deceivers will bear a heavy judgement.

As surely as God lives, they will. . . One day.

Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, To give to each man what his actions merit. - Rev 22:12 (MNT)

MyJoe:

I would be more circumspect about blaming the victim, JeSoul. What we have here is a sighted man extending a hand to a blind man and then using his vantage position to to lead that one into a lion's pit.There are people who are incapable of reading the Bible.Well, not everyone is capable of quiet introspection, either.

I understand your sentiments about people with herd mentality, but I think you need to reflect more on the nature of religion itself, the manner in which religious tenets are received, and the human mind. The human mind I am not smart enough to comprehend satisfactorily, but something is known of the first two. Religion is something you follow dogmatically – you don’t question it. That is the nature of religion. When people accept a system of worship, that is, a religion, they trust their lives to God and his “appointed servant”. This automatically creates a relationship based on trust between the “appointed servant” and the follower. This is why even the most intelligent people and people with Ph.D. fall for religious scam. The follower trusts the appointed servant relay the message from God correctly. If the “appointed servant” takes advantage of this position to deceive, I believe he should be held accountable for it.

The perpetrators of religious fraud are a determined lot. They know what they want and how to go about it. Folks stand no chance! Not only are they schooled in the art of deception, but they have access to the means of spreading their poisonous message. Let’s look at some of their methods. They take over the media and spurn stories of how people pay tithe and reap billions. Now, if they stop there you can blame your average Christian for lusting after lucre and thereby falling for the tithing scam. But they don’t! They go on to reel out stories of people who did not pay and had their warehouses razed by fire, came down with mysterious diseases, had their children expelled from school and generally declined. [/i]In other words, God gets positively angry and punishes you if you don’t pay your tithe.

It’s not about not reading their Bibles. I have been there. You read one verse, then listen to copious amounts of tape or read volumes written by the “servant” on that verse. He tells you what it says and gives you stories to back up his explanation. When verses contravening the doctrine are seen, they are glossed over.  Most people who attend tithing churches pay tithes. I had a Catholic friend who tithes regularly, having swallowed the message from the tithing wing of Christendom.

A potential recruit, you hear the message and realise your life has been full of problems all along and you wonder if it is because you have not found the secret which is now being revealed. You “give your life” and start paying tithe! Here is Justice Oyewole in his verdict on the infamous Rev King: [i]“The Nigerian society is already bogged down with myriads of problems ranging from poverty to corruption which has rendered many of its vulnerable elements susceptible to the wares of religious highway men such as the accused person here, who offered them stone for bread and scorpion when they demand for fish.”

The only person that is safe from the salesman of tainted spiritual goods is he that does not buy. Once you buy there is usually no room for selective consumption. The question of why people buy, I think, cannot be satisfactorily answered by anyone. What brings a man to accept a faith appears to be like what brings a man and a woman to together, keeps them together and tears them apart – it is unknown.

Religious deceivers will bear a heavy judgement.

You captured the whole thing so succintly.Wow.

Brilliant thread. I subscribe.

@Jesoul:

Do you believe the Pope who said "So profitable has this fable of Jesus Christ been to us" and Chris Oyakilome are blind guides? I think NOT!

I mainly agree with MyJoe and very little with DeepSight. Like my razor-sharp guybabe Tudor (just joking: swords have been sheathed ) once told me, not everyone can read or has brains. Religious participation also by its nature does not ask questions and so most people become (as the Bible says) "sheep". I am certain the Bible deliberately uses that "dumbest" of animals to describe most christians. Without a shepherd (or conversely with a bad one), what you have is that most people mill around without focus and are readily pushed in whatever direction the shepherd or predator decides.

Personal responsibility will likely be handled by a just Father God on the basis of exposure, initiative and environment and I think with that, we have solution to Jesoul's submission that both deceiver and deceived are guilty. It would be relative guilt, not absolute.

[size=4pt]can't help but feel good I invited MyJoe's participation here. Now if I could only find that fantasist Krayola so I get 2 great minds opposing the 1 mistake I made[/size]

MyJoe:

Religious deceivers will bear a heavy judgement.

I don't know if the above is necessarily true, I just wanna share a related story.

There is a video (extracts might even be on Youtube) produced by Canadian Television exposing fake miracle workers including Benny Hinn among others. One of the stories was that of a 9(?) years old paraplegic whose very poor immigrant parents took him to a Benny Hinn crusade for healing. They pledged several thousand pounds and Mr. Hinn "prayed", "laid hands" etc. Unfortunately the poor boy died shortly after the crusade.

Here comes the relevant bit - a Jewish Rabbi who was asked to comment said something to the effect:

I hope God has a special place in hell {for the likes of Benny Hinn}

^^^ Brother,

What you have described above is common on the crime and investigation channel. So many of these guys have been shown for what they are.

The question we need to ask is "IS GOD FAIR and AWARE OF THESE THINGS"? WHAT will He do about it?

I believe He is aware and will recompense everyone according to their acts. There are situations where families destroy their finances (and never recover) because their love and pain at the problem of a child or member, compelled them to "put all" into seeking out a faith healer. I doubt God will forget the use of His name for such falsity. The worst of it all is that whist they ADVERTISE and GUIARANTEE healing as part of the program, the program proper sees a marked departure and suddenly - its YOUR faith thats the problem. If you feel better, its their glorification. If not, its YOUR fault. Meanwhile, fill the envelop with your life savings. This part does not "show" your faith but is compulsory. Its like people forget faith is directed towards God not man when man expects you show it by doing something for his OWN ministry.

I believe they will face far greater shame and condemnation than all others in Heaven. I can imagine them locked in a fiery chamber with followers who will in addition to the flames attack them and use nails, teeth, fist, and their curses till judgement is complete. The word is Torment!

There's self-preservation too, because subtle threat and blackmail is involved to ensure compliance with 'tithes' and 'seeds' and 'pledges' and 'freewill offerings'. They tell you if you pay these things 'God' will bless you, and things will go well for you. Don't pay, and bad things will happen to you, then you'll have only yourself to blame.  There's something even more subtle and dangerous at work. Kunleoshob pointed it out: the perversion of the law of sowing and reaping, and of giving. When you give to others from your heart in any currency: money, love, kindness/compassion, free physical labour, help,etc- you become more and more like the One you serve, and there are rewards for that in spiritual currency. But these pastors have twisted it around so you give, not to those in need, but to THEM AND THEIR CHURCHES.   They call this 'Giving to the Lord'

But Christ says it is actually giving to the poor and needy that translates to giving to Him: Matthew 25:34-40

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

'Brothers/ Brethren/ Strangers' are not 'only members of my church', but simply OTHER PEOPLE irrespective of religion or tribe or race, because that is how God sees us. He did not come down to create any church or group.

Christ told us to give to the poor and help others in need.But people give to these pastors instead and are led to believe they have done their duty to God. Horrible.

Kunleoshob mentioned someone on the religious forum agonizing over whether to pay the tithe or give the money to a sick friend. Good God.

These pastors collect huge amounts of monies in tithes and seeds and pledges and instead of using it for the poor and needy, building soup kitchens for the hungry, or orphanages, or footing the hospital bills of some kid dying in the hospital, or spomsoring widows, they start building MONUMENTS TO THEIR EGO FOR THE WORLD TO REMEMBER THEM BY. If they're not building the world's biggest auditoriums they're building elitist universities for children of the rich. They live like kings and wealthy sultans with the sweat and labour of their church members, some of whom can barely afford to feed their kids, much less send them to costly universities their money helped to build. These poor folks struggle to pay tithe and 'seeds' so God may bless them.

Some of these Pators make BILLIONS from these scams, spending it on fancy cars, fancy homes, fancy buildings. .You will find them siphoning billions from their members annually, and yet NOT HAVE  A SINGLE CHARITY EARNESTLY DEDICATEDTO HELPING THE POOR.  But this was all Christ was pre-occupied with. Thousands followed Him, and He took NOTHING from them. No, He worked as a carpenter to support Himself. He GAVE to them instead. But these ones who say they come in His name have no interest in the poor, they're here to live like kings on other people's labours and get 'visions' to build things that will bring glory to their own names, not His.

@ Myjoe - That's a good write up BUT -

1. Yes: the deceiver is culpable as well: we all agree on that

2. However the deceived CANNOT escape culpability and none of the reasons you gave above are sufficient to justify the willfull suicide commited against a person's simple perceptive capacities by his submission to dogma. In this I am particularly convinced because I have seen stark illiterates who are NOT deceived by these blessing-peddlers - people who are not educated and not refined but are able to excercise their rational and intuitive perceptions AND CLEARLY SEE FRAUD FOR WHAT IT IS. What excuse then, does a well educated, refined person have for not similarly excercising his perceptive faculties? It's nothing but spiritual and mental laziness: and there is no justification for this.

3. NO HUMAN BEING is spiritually blind save by personal choice.

@mba emeka:

Yes, you have the life of God in you. And His Spirit quickens and strengthens you. Christians all do. But it doesn't make us "Gods"

^^^ To the extent that we all emanate from the radiations of God, there is LIFE within us as God has permitted. In this regard a small spark of divinity (LIFE) may well be said to be within us all. For God is LIFE and he has bequethed this gift to us all.

^^^ Been awhile I found agreement with you, DeepSight. I remember those days when everything you said was like music and law to me before you turned devil's advocate and went AWOL. Well, I guess you need must practise law even here.

With your above, I agree 100%. However, it is for the initial audience that I used the word Christian else he'd see it a travesty. Knowing his beliefs, I'm sure you understand

Deep Sight:

@ Myjoe - That's a good write up BUT -

  1. Yes: the deceiver is culpable as well: we all agree on that

  2. However the deceived CANNOT escape culpability and none of the reasons you gave above are sufficient to justify the willfull suicide commited against a person's simple perceptive capacities by his submission to dogma.

The deceived in the specific case of tithing can escape culpability. In fact, there may be no culpability at all! I do not believe that a religious devotee who falls victim to a doctrine that is not commanded by God has brought judgement upon himself as long as what he is led to do does not violate God's principle on love, a principle every human soul ought to be able to recognise. Let us group tithers into two: Those who tithe and still serve humanity and those who tithe and don’t.  Those in the first group are fine because there is nothing wrong in giving 10% or any percentage you like of your money to your church. It is your prerogative. An example that comes to mind here is the man who recently anonymously footed the bill of a kid who needed to travel to India for heart surgery to the tune of N1.5m. If that man goes ahead to give 10% of his earnings to his church what has he done wrong? Nothing.

There is no bad karma that can be incurred by that whatsoever. The only consequence here is played for a fool by being robbed of his money since his pastor may put the money, not to the service of God through humanity, but to personal use. It is this pastor that has brought judgment upon himself by (1) making a false decree in the name of God (2) putting money collected in the name of God to personal use. If you agree with my submission above, then let’s say this group of tithers are not the people we are talking about.

It becomes a serious matter with the second group, that is, when tithing subverts the individual’s faithfulness to God through the serving of disadvantaged people. Here a man’s paying of his tithe leads him to neglect his godly duty to those he comes across who are weak, vulnerable and in need of assistance, or, in some cases, his dependents. Unfortunately, most contemporary Christian tithers I know fall into this second category. This is the “effect in Society/Christianity” of false teachings. A typical example of this dangerous group of tithers is the man who came to Nairaland to ask if he should pay his tithe or help an ill friend. If he pays his tithe and neglects to help “the little one of Christ” who is ill, he incurs a bad Karma, not by tithing, but by passing up an opportunity to serve God by serving someone in need.

Deep Sight:
In this I am particularly convinced because I have seen stark illiterates who are NOT deceived by these blessing-peddlers - people who are not educated and not refined but are able to excercise their rational and intuitive perceptions AND CLEARLY SEE FRAUD FOR WHAT IT IS. What excuse then, does a well educated, refined person have for not similarly excercising his perceptive faculties? It's nothing but spiritual and mental laziness: and there is no justification for this.

  3. NO HUMAN BEING is spiritually blind save by personal choice.

It has nothing to do with education. Most human beings are captive to some concept. For some it is tithing, for others it is something else.  You have been there, so you know. Is there a possibility that when you were a sincere JW you did not go from house to house, sometimes aggravating people? No. It's a part of the package. You don't pick and choose what to obey with religion, that is where trust between the pulpit and laity comes in because whatever is said is received as sacred revelation. However, we can choose what creed to subscribe to.

Why do we make these choices? Why do some people discover they have been duped after one year? Some after 60 years? How does Deep Sight know he is not duped in his present beliefs? Does anyone have satisfactory answer to these questions? I have some but they are all subjective.

I feel that much of what you have written is correct but not apt: to wit - not relevant to the point I am trying to emphasize.

In my first post on this thread I talked about Mugus.

The personal responsibility that I refer to is thus responsibility for your being deceived. If you are have been a tither and the scales one day fall from your eyes, you look around for a person to blame. I insist that the person to blame is yourself. Doubtless the "Pastor" has done wrong and will have his own Karma. But if you seek a focal point of responsibility for your wrong perceptions or wasted tithes, that focal point is doubtless you. And it amounts to nothing but cowardice to attempt to evade that responsibility.

As I stated before, there is no human being who falls into such traps save by his personal choice. No body is forced to tithe. If you are so shallow as to imagine that failure to tithe will ruin your life, that is nothing but a reflection of YOUR spiritual and possible mental retardation.

I really cannot say much on this beyond what Jesoul elegantly stated: the age old wisdom that no person can make you feel inferior without your co-operation. That positively applies here. It is absurd to call your self a christian and yet be unable to study the scriptures for yourself. Pointing at your theiving pastor is as pathetic as saying "the devil made me do it." What the heck is the essence of free will ? ? ? ? ? ?

So please understand: I speak about responsibility for being deceived. I do not envisage that a tither will be punished for tithing as you have suggested. That is way off the mark. But if he seeks a person to blame for his meaningless tithing, he should start with himself. He should ask why he was taken in by the scam when others weren't.

I state to you that this is the path of champions. The Champion starts with himself and takes responsibity for his life. Any thing short of this is contemptible and pathetic cowardice.

I agree you did not say “a tither will be punished”. But if you look at the context again you may see why it was necessary to clear up that matter.

While personal responsibility is the reasonable part for any sensible person to start from and to take, I disagree with your conclusions on “muguness” and “spiritual retardation” for the reason that humans have limited perceptions in these matters. People believe that failure to do all sorts of things will ruin their lives and do all sorts of things to be blessed. Going by your views just about everyone is spiritually retarded and mugu, no? All men are spiritually developing. To class those who adhere to specific doctrines such as believing that not tithing can ruin them as "spiritually retarded" was absent-minded on your part.

MyJoe:

I agree you did not say “a tither will be punished”. But if you look at the context again you may see why it was necessary to clear up that matter.

While personal responsibility is the reasonable part for any sensible person to start from and to take, I disagree with your conclusions on “muguness” and “spiritual retardation” for the reason that humans have limited perceptions in these matters. People believe that failure to do all sorts of things will ruin their lives and do all sorts of things to be blessed. Going by your views just about everyone is spiritually retarded and mugu, no? All men are spiritually developing. To class those who adhere to specific doctrines such as believing that not tithing can ruin them as "spiritually retarded" was absent-minded on your part.

Please refer to my first submission on this thread: I SAID -

If a man allows himself to be fleeced by a tithe-mongering-pastor, that is his kettle of fish: he remains the mugu - and he certainly has a right to be a mugu as far as his religion is concerned.

We are all mugus for one thing or the other, afterall.

Thus it is clearly conceded that we all have our foibles. Is this however any justification for a failure to point out our inanities to one another?

That we all have our achilles heels is NO reason not to point them out in each other. I have many flaws myself. I am not averse to having them pointed out. It will be a cold day in hell before you get me to believe that there is anything wrong in pointing out st.upid behaviour for what it is.

People believe all sorts of things. Some beliefs are id.iotic. Political correctness is not my strongest suit and I certainly will state that which I BELIEVE to be st.upid.

A belief that your life will be ruined if you do not pay a tithe is ST.UPID. When i use the words "spiritually retarded" - I do not speak arrogantly: and i choose my words advisedly - for the notion itself contains a lamentable misconception of what the spiritual man is: and the essence of spirituality. It seeks, as it were, to monetize spirituality: and that is nothing if not symptomatic of retardation in that respect. This is comparable to the belief in the middle ages that forgiveness of sins could be obtained by purchasing indulgences (writs of forgiveness) from the Pope. I wonder what words you might use to describe that belief. Perhaps you will choose to be politically correct and remain silent on it. The truth however, is that it was the most muguistic belief ever - and holding such a belief is clear evidence that such a person's spiritual development is at ground zero.

I do not apologize for this statement and I am not inclined to deny you your entitlement to view my statement which ever way rocks your boat.

Deep Sight:

A belief that your life will be ruined if you do not pay a tithe is ST.UPID. When i use the words "spiritually retarded" - I do not speak arrogantly: and i choose my words advisedly - for the notion itself contains a lamentable misconception of what the spiritual man is: and the essence of spirituality. It seeks, as it were, to monetize spirituality: and that is nothing if not symptomatic of retardation in that respect. This is comparable to the belief in the middle ages that forgiveness of sins coul dbe obtained by purchasing indulgences from the Pope. I wonder what words you might use to describe that belief. Perhaps you will choose to be politically correct and remain silent on it. The truth however, is that it was the most muguistic belief ever.

I do not apologize for this statement and I am not inclined to deny you your entitlement to view my statement which ever way rocks your boat.

Everyone admits he has flaws alright, but no one would consider those flaws as stup.id, daft or retarded. All that, you see, is SUBJECTIVE.

I am not inclined to say more on this except to remind you, as I am convinced you already know, that people have different levels of exposure and are conditioned by their environment. I am convinced that in the whole scheme of things that places responsibilities where they belong. There is not necessarily a political correctness about that.

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

Take another look at this -

Deep Sight:


The personal responsibility that I refer to is thus responsibility for your being deceived. If you are have been a tither and the scales one day fall from your eyes, you look around for a person to blame. I insist that the person to blame is yourself.

Do you disagree with the above?

Do you state that people do not have responsibility for themselves in these matters?

Interesting conversation and I'm glad I didn't jump in as I wanted just after post#78. The beliefs of both of you will likely not have the following in focus. Its more peculiar to the "supposed" Christian and brings a new perspective. I hope the Christians amongst us will throw more light on the below and correct me where I'm wrong.

There have been two laws.
[1] That of Moses which entailed Works. The Bible establishes it as perfect. Rom 3:21-31.
[2] But no man can keep it honestly which would mean Moses law damns all “By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight , ” Rom 3:20 and Gal 2:16. Paul infact further asserts it is evident that “no one is justified by the Law before God” Gal 3:11. That is why he calls the ministry that came through Moses (the Law) “the ministry of death” - even “the ministry of condemnation” 2 Cor 3:7,9.
[3] Paul also sees this Law as extremely valuable for the reason that “Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” Rom 3:20. AND “I would not have come to know sin except through the Law” Rom 7:7.

If one has no concept of personal sin, one has no concept of a need to be saved from it!

This is a very important statement - worthy of deep, reflective thought. If a person lacks understanding of personal sin - and certain accountability before God - the message of the cross is foolishness. “Therefore, the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” Gal 3:24. This is how the Law is used lawfully - it is a tutor to show us we are in trouble with God, and then points us to The Solution. While the Law does not have the ability to make us right with God, it is an invaluable tool in leading us to what (Who) can. The work Jesus performed on the cross is the only action that can pay for our violations of God - not some doomed attempt at Law keeping.

That brings us the the second law - the law of Grace under Christ Jesus.

But we are discussing tithes, not salvation and my point here is this - Paul wrote to the Galatians, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse: for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform them’” Deut 27:26 and Gal 3:10. The tithe is clearly one of “the works of the Law.”

Once you put yourself under the law in one issue, you are under the law in all. “For whoever keeps the whole Law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (Ja 2:10). For He who said "do not kill" also said "do not lie" (in effect). "Tithing" then, as a duty, brings its proponent UNDER THE LAW being one of the works of the law.

This is a problem for a Christian "hoping" to live under Grace yet insisting on being under this one law. And it is why DeepSight is maybe absolutely right. Excuses cannot be given for the Christian who is told "My people die for lack of knowledge, but because you have rejected knowledge, I too will reject you". AND how do we get knowledge? "Seek ye out the book of the Lord, and read, and understand, for therein is life"

The Christian who spends their time reading commentaries on the Bible rather than the Bible itself is in search of condemnation. The word DeepSight used that got me was "CHAMPION". I believe this is what we are called to be as humans and especially as Christians: leaders of the pack, individualists creating waves, bending nature to our desires etc. But the average human today has a herd mentality and follows blindly. Such will likely suffer for his folly; how, no idea. I suspect though that the stories we hear of repeated falls may have something to do with this issue. The religious system however, does not care for its members. Theirs is a simple mantra "Just bring cash".

I tried thinking of various line of argument to counter Deepsight’s position but always came to same conclusion; people should be responsible for their actions.

But are we really mugus? It’s possible we are. but I think it goes beyond that. Becoming a Christian might not have been a rational decision in the first place. Various factors influence our decisions, for example it could be the environment we find ourselves (that will explain why we have a predominantly Muslim North and Christian South in Nigeria). Becoming a Christian might have been influenced by the sermons/activities of these MOGs, one is likely to extend that faith in God to a trust in the pastor. We are currently living in a distressed environment and as humans will attempt or try out anything to will put us in a comfortable position. Take for example a dying man in the hospital will accept prayers from all sort of spiritualist (be it pastor, priest, alfa, native medicinal man e.t.c) simply because he is desperate and want to live. This applies to a lot of Christians today. We are desperately seeking solutions to our various problems/concerns/fears and probably lost the ability to reason. That could explain why a lot a people after Sunday morning service, go for another round in the evening, daily service on weekdays (some people do abscond from work to attend church activities during working hours), then on Friday night hit redeem camp and make a detour to mfm camp on Saturday morning (on the way back from redeem). Maybe it’s because we lack the will to stand firm to a particular belief or faith. Whatever the reason is, the MOGs are aware of this level of desperation and tend to abuse it. This is where I have to agree with MyJoe. I get the impression that Deepsight is a lawyer, so I would like to ask; are you of the opinion that the man that was swindled by a con (yahoo) man takes full responsibility for his loss? Knowing very well he allowed the fraud in the first place due to his greed. If that’s your position then every con man should be allowed to walk free like our MOGs.

^^^ Lovely. Just lovely. Wish could see you and kiss you

@ Zikky: I never for ONCE suggested that con artists or tithe-mongering pastors do not bear personal responsibility; they do - everybody does.

As for victims of con artists, I can tell you that in most instances they are victims of their own greed. I have been swindled before: and I know very well it happened because I was eager to triple a small amount of money. Do not dare suggest to me that I am not personally responsible for the greed that led me into the lair of the fraudster.

The point is that we actively PARTCIPATE in the fraud for it to happen. The money belongs to you and you take a conscious decision to part with it based on your beliefs. Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times and we bear strict personal responsibility for this.

This is altogether different from a robbery whereat the robbed person does not participate: his goods are simply taken without his permission or by violent force. So long as some one is sweet-talking you you are under no obligation and you cannot escape your responsibility for your misfortune.

I NEED CHAMPIONS. I NEED BOLD AND RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR LIVES AND DESTINIES. I AM NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE CONTRARY ARGUMENTS AS FOR ME THEY ARE SYMPTOMATIC OF COWARDICE AND A FAILURE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

Such persons lack responsible honour.

I REPEAT -

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

You are MAINLY right, DeepSight. Still, there is the issue of maturity, background, intelligence etc. I remember a young woman recounting a very funny story of how after being duped using the "You've won a Plasma TV from Glo" format, she went and sat at their office for hours waiting for the "head manager" to present her prize. She actually was convinced to wear Glo colors and bring her 2 sons (also Glo-ooooed up) for supposed ceremony only to learn she'd been hoodwinked.

True, I thought her a bit daft but later realised it was more of hopeful than daft. And this is RELIGION where you question with the fear of eternal damnation - just read the comments human beings pass here when the issue of men of God is concerned. "fear", "horror", "damnation", "fiery fire gnawing at your innermost parts" is the litany and these are people exposed to the Internet. What would you expect of the person who never saw a computer?

It is OBVIOUS to me and you that man must task himself but its easier said than done.

Deep Sight:

@ Zikky: I never for ONCE suggested that con artists or tithe-mongering pastors do not bear personal responsibility; they do - everybody does.

Good enough for me.

Deep Sight:

The point is that we actively PARTCIPATE in the fraud for it to happen. The money belongs to you and you take a conscious decision to part with it based on your beliefs. Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times and we bear strict personal responsibility for this.

We are saying the same thing here. I noted this in the first line of my post.

Deep Sight:

Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times

I believe you are referring to the white man. The average Africa man will not challenge any beliefs. They don’t have the stamina for that. Our forefathers converted events/natural phenomenon they could not fathom into proverbs 

Joke apart, I still stick to the view that a lot Christians inability to rationalize issues have do with their state of mind. If you’ve been thoroughly beaten down by life, you’ll take advice from a ram. It’s not as easy as you think sir.

Deep Sight:

I NEED CHAMPIONS. I NEED BOLD AND RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR LIVES AND DESTINIES. I AM NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE CONTRARY ARGUMENTS AS FOR ME THEY ARE SYMPTOMATIC OF COWARDICE AND A FAILURE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

You know these guys are not complaining. They don’t even want to agree they have been swindled. We are the one trying to reason out their action here. They probably take us for fools. Well, maybe we are 

Its cowardice if the decision to tithe was taken out of fear (of the devourer maybe). If tithing was seen as an elixir for some of life problems then it’s probably something else.

I have observed a lot of people find it more convenient to listen to sermons than pick up a bible. Probably be the confidence they have in the MOG.

Deep Sight:

I REPEAT -

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Now you are mixing up my post. My comment has to do with the decision to become a Christian in the first place. e.g. a good number of people are Christians because they were born into a Christian family; they could easily have been Muslims or Hindu. Assuming Deepsight was born and grew up somewhere in the Middle East, I am sure your life would have been a different story 

Deep Sight:

I REPEAT -

[color=#990000]What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

To answer your question, one would need to understand the circumstances that lead to taking such position or belief. Sorry I can’t be of help at this time. Zikkyy has not been born at the time 

Sorry I can’t help adding some bit of humor here and there. That’s the way I take life, with a bit of fun. So I don’t grow grey hairs prematurely.  Seriously speaking, I will say am not an expert in the field, but I believe various life exposures significantly influence/shape our reasoning. It’s very much unavoidable. I can say this from personal experience and observations of behaviors around me. But this will not be enough to justify the position taken by these people. It’s possible that was all they knew, the inability to reason through could attributable to the trust and high regard they have for the pope. It could have been a combination of so many things. Are they responsible for their actions? Yes, if they have enough facts to have thought otherwise. But were they in the right frame of mind to enable rational deduction?  Maybe assistance via check in to intensive psychiatric care was all that was needed. 

I believe Nuclearboy’s response above answers your question.

Wow! Brilliant posts.

Zikkyy:

I tried thinking of various line of argument to counter Deepsight’s position but always came to same conclusion; people should be responsible for their actions.

I feel you. Deep Sight knows what he is talking about and there can be no argument successfully formulated against personal responsibility. What is wrong-headed about his position is his sweeping generalisations.

Deep Sight:

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

Take another look at this -

Do  you disagree with the above?

Do you state that people do not have responsibility for themselves in these matters?

I think Zikky and Nuclearboy have addressed these, but I will like to make some observations.

1.  There is need to refrain from making simplistic references to "intuitive perception". If it works independently of pre-conceived ideas, how many people, in practical terms, have experience of this? You have changed creeds yourself more than once. Was it intuitive perception told you do do so each time or would you not ascribe things in large parts to your experiences and interactions? Does this not speak clearly that you are developing spiritually and that your experiences and interactions play a role? Perhaps you have any examples of rustics in Bhutan whose "intuitive perception" told them to stop venerating cows?

2.  People in secluded communities usually follow the order. The few who don't take their position due to some external influence. They read something. They saw something. They heard something. Whatever it is they observe helps them to "put two and two together" and progress from the absolute certainty of true believer to cognitive dissonance, and finally to epiphany. Anyone in a secluded community who truly on his own goes against the grain is a genius and cannot be used as a yardstick. Not that I can recall any. In Christopher Buckley's novel, Wet Work, everyone is watching a shaman drink a concoction preparatory to "seeing visions" and a boy observes to his father that he thinks the shaman is going to see a lot of vision having drunk a lot of the stuff. At which the father calmly responds: "trust only your own vision". How did a stark illiterate Indian who had not previously had contact with Western ideals know that the shaman was a fraud? Because he himself once caught the shaman red-handed perpetrating fraud! Those who bought indulgences from popes did so based largely on their exposure and environment.

3. Yes, a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit. But why can't you see that this ability is not the possession of everyone?

4.  The issue of personal responsibility is such a settled matter one should not belabour it. There can be no argument against it. So I do understand your agreement and agree basically with you on “personal responsibility”. What I reject in its entirety is your "one-size-fits-all" approach. You need to understand that personal responsibility can only come in when there is personal responsibility.

5.  Just to be sure, I have never paid a dime as tithe or that sort of thing, so none of this applies to me.  But I know people who don’t even have the mental capacity to process all the stuff we are here saying. What about those who are barely literate or stark illiterate? What some of these people go through at the hands of their trusted priests is not similar to what the urbane Deep Sight went through at the hands of 419ers. It is more like a village girl just come to Lagos to live with her uncle. Rather than look after her he puts her to slave labour. There is no personal responsibility on her part.