Posted by Rick Moran on Jun 10th, 2010

In the aftermath of the Gaza flotilla incident, we have witnessed a tsunami of virulent, over-the-top criticism of the state of Israel for its actions in interdicting the so-called “peace activists” before they could dock at the port of Gaza.

Reasonable people can argue whether the decision on the methods used to stop the ships was the correct course for the Israeli government to take. Indeed, there is a healthy debate within Israel itself over this very issue, including questions about intelligence, tactics, and whether the propaganda victory handed to pro-Palestinian activists could have been avoided while still maintaining the blockade.

Even the efficacy of the blockade itself is being discussed in Israel, as it has been since the quarantine was intensified nearly 3 years ago. For these internal critics, and those elsewhere who do not wish to see the state of Israel or its people destroyed, it is much too glib to ascribe their opposition as anti-Semitic or even anti-Israeli. But we can certainly put a reasonable question to these critics that never seems to get answered amidst the bombast and posturing from both the Jew haters and genuine “peace” seekers alike.

What is it you would have the Israeli government do to protect itself?

Indeed, what marks the critic of Israeli policy is a disconnect between the perilous reality of Israel’s exposed position vis-a-vis the Palestinians and those nations that support them. They hold a pie-in-the-sky belief that if Israel would only remove the irritants the Palestinians suffer on a daily basis, that the animosity felt by Israel’s enemies would magically disappear.

Consider what these critics have been harping on for years:

The Blockade

Israel justifies its blockade of Gaza under recognized treaties regarding the Laws of the Sea. This includes interdiction of ships in international waters, as anyone who has read anything about the US blockade of Cuba during the missile crisis can attest.

But let’s ignore all of that and grant Israel’s critics their wish and raise the blockade. What would be the probable outcome?

Judging by what happened on Israel’s southern border following their war with Hezbollah, it would be a military calamity and a security nightmare. Without inspecting each and every ship that docked at the Port of Gaza (and if Egypt allowed the free flow of goods and people into Rafah), the likelihood that the Palestinians would be supplied by Iran and Syria with much more sophisticated and deadly arms would be assured.

Why? Because of the spectacular failure of the United Nations International Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) whose job after the war was to prevent the resupply of Hezbollah. Their mission was to guard the border with Syria to keep Iran’s puppet Bashar Assad from moving arms into Lebanon to replace (and as it turned out, augment) Hezballah’s arsenal of 40,000 rockets. Not only were the terrorists easily resupplied, but it appears that recent additions to Hezballah’s arsenal include medium range ballistic missiles capable of hitting every major city in Israel.

Given such incompetence on the part of the UN, are Israel’s critics seriously suggesting that, 1) lifting the blockade would not result in an avalanche of sophisticated weapons pouring into Gaza; and 2) any other party would do as good a job as the Israelis themselves in keeping these weapons out?

Israel controls the Port of Gaza as a result of the Oslo accords. They have a legal right to self defense, and a legal justification for the blockade, including the right to interdict shipping in international waters – as the Americans did during the Cuban Missile Crisis. If Israel’s overwrought critics could assure the Israeli government that lifting the blockade would not result in Hamas improving their capability of murdering a lot of innocent Israeli citizens, I am sure that Prime Minister Netanyahu would be interested in hearing how they would propose doing so.

The Fence

It doesn’t matter to critics what Israel is trying to keep out by building a 450 mile fence largely along what was once known as the “Green Line” that separated the West Bank from Israel. Rarely does one come across criticism of the barrier that gives the Israeli rationale for constructing it in the first place. There have been all sorts of fantastical claims about why Israel is building the Fence, ignoring the most obvious reason; it will save the lives of Israeli citizens.

Again, there appears to be a disconnect on the part of critics who can safely catalog Israeli concerns and shuffle them off to the side somewhere, while railing against the purported effects of the fence on Palestinians.

Most observers would agree that the barrier imposes burdens on the Palestinians. The way the wall is being constructed creates enclaves of Palestinians who will be isolated from their neighbors and the rest of the West Bank. But for critics, military necessity and the security of innocent Israeli citizens just never seems to make much of an impression. Otherwise intelligent, discerning analysts bewail the plight of Palestinians – and, in some cases, it is indeed tragic that families are separated, commerce affected, and property expropriated.

But we come back to the question that critics of Israeli policy refuse to even consider; what is the government supposed to do to protect their citizens from such an implacable, deadly enemy? The fence is a far less draconian and brutal solution than other governments have chosen in the past in a similar situation – namely, mass slaughter of their enemies. If that is Israel’s goal, they are doing a horrible job of achieving it.

Instead, the fence inoculates Israel from most of the terrorist acts that would kill many of its citizens while advancing the least obnoxious alternative that places the smallest possible burden on the Palestinian people. In fact, building the Fence has resulted in far fewer terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis. The three years prior to building the fence saw 117 terrorist attacks resulting in the loss of 477 civilians while wounding thousands of others. In areas where the Fence has been completed, the number of attacks has dropped to near zero.

Critics also rarely mention that some Israeli citizens in the settlements oppose the fence because it separates them from the rest of Israel.

The “Proportionate Response” Canard

Perhaps no complaint of Israel’s critics reveals the massive disconnect between reality and sophistry as much as the idea that because the Palestinians are weak militarily, and fewer in number, that it is the responsibility of Israel to pull its punches and react “proportionately” to Palestinian provocations; or, in the case of the Gaza raid, provocations from anyone.

First, Michael Rubin writing at The Corner demolishes this nonsense:

But why should any democratic government empowered to defend its citizenry accept Europe’s idea of proportion? When attacked, why should not a stronger nation or its representatives try to both protects its own personnel at all costs and, in the wider scheme of things, defeat its adversaries?

Likewise, when terrorists seek to strike at the United States, why should we find ourselves constrained by an artificial notion of proportionality when responding to those terrorists or their state sponsors?

Ultimately, it may be time to recognize that, in the face of growing threats to Western liberalism, strength and disproportionality matter more to security and the protection of democracy than the approval of the chattering class of Europe or the U.N. secretary general.

I have never heard of “proportionality” applied to any other nations except Israel and the United States. I don’t recall such arguments when Russia invaded Georgia, destroying several towns with massive artillery bombardments, ripping up rail centers, and killing wantonly. They may have been criticized for the invasion but the words “disproportionate response” were not used, as far as I can recall, to describe their action. Even if the phrase was used, there would be no comparison with the frequency with which that criticism is directed against Israel.

Neither am I aware of anyone criticizing Pakistan for using tanks and helicopters to engage Taliban fighters armed only with AK-47’s and a few outdated mortars.

But the idea of “proportionality” in war is very important to people like Andrew Sullivan:

Kudos to Michael Rubin for conceding that the Cheney-Netanyahu approach to terrorism is exactly a question of deliberate disproportion…

Ah, yes. Why not torture, mass murder, and an abandonment of basic principles of the rules of law?

Note the towering straw men set up by Sullivan. Is he accusing Israel of doing all of that? Or is he saying that Israel is capable of doing those things? Or is he positing the notion that commando raids using much restrained force until the “peace” activists put the lives of the soldiers at risk automatically escalates into “torture, mass murder, and an abandonment of basic principles of the rules of law?”

In fact, the reason there were not hundreds killed on that ship was because Israel did, indeed, engage in a proportional response to the violence directed against them. They didn’t have to. They could have rappelled down those ropes armed with automatic rifles instead of paint guns and at the first sign of trouble, blazed away, killing dozens. I daresay that most nations would have taken that route. It is much safer for the attacker, and success is more assured, if the IDF had gone Sullivan’s “mass murder” route.

But they didn’t. They couldn’t. Israel is a civilized nation engaged with barbarians whose blood-lust against the Jews is so profoundly ingrained that many of the activists fervently sang and chanted about martyrdom prior to their little cruise. Willing to give their lives for a propaganda stunt? What is “proportional” when engaging people like that?

Did Sullivan and his ilk expect the commandos to rappel down to the deck armed with knives, steel bars, and baseball bats? Would that have been a “proportional response?” Yes, it’s as silly as that.

It really doesn’t matter to Israel’s critics. Like the blockade and the Fence, the commando raid is beside the point. What matters is finding a way to place Israel in the weakest moral position possible in the eyes of the world. In order to do this, critics will go to astonishing lengths, twisting their arguments into pretzels of logic, salted with half truths, while ignoring the entire issue of Israel’s necessary self defense against those who wish to destroy her and her people. And through all of that virulent, off-balance criticism, not one word about alternatives that they would recommend the Jewish state employ except near total surrender to their enemies.

Perhaps we shouldn’t ask what critics want Israel to do. The answer might very well horrify all of us.

Maybe NOW those FOOLS will Read and Understand !

Fck u! I hope my msg is clear, Bleep you Frosbel, think those hardboiled oppressors even consider political niceties, their paranoia destroys lives by the barrels each day and they still say they're right. I don't support the way the activists went about the flotilla biz but to justify Isreal's actions is just evil. By the blockade they arent keeping out as many enemies as they are making. the small shred of understanding I had for the state is gone with the wind. So Bleep you i say again.

Parnassuss:

Fck u! I hope my msg is clear, bleep you Frosbel, think those hardboiled oppressors even consider political niceties, their paranoia destroys lives by the barrels each day and they still say they're right. I don't support the way the activists went about the flotilla biz but to justify Isreal's actions is just evil. By the blockade they arent keeping out as many enemies as they are making. the small shred of understanding I had for the state is gone with the wind. So bleep you i say again.

GOD BLESS Israel


[img]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0NyuBL3JlStXOM:http://steynian.files./2009/09/israel_flag.jpg[/img]

there you have the unclothedness of hypocritical nigerian. flying high the flag of a foreign country. blessing her while at no time blesses nigeria, never mind about her flag. but then who is fooling who when he says that his dual citizenship will secure him in england against the renewed ghost of disraeli when the jewss arrive in nigeria to plunder my beloved nation. he forgets that his forebearer's burial places are in his village [lol]. and the army wearing star of david will come hard, fast and furious on the plots, jesus cross and all will be destroyed.
the jews will be too happy to show how low they think the gentiles are! let them have the upper hand. the example is whats happening in palestine right now.


i hope you will not sing a new tune when they make your people 6th class citizens, a shade higher than a dog. incidentally, jesus cursed them, if only by his calling them vipers, leeches, foolish, evil generation. by the hypocrite's admission, those who say jews are fools must be fools themselves.

@ frosbel, sori i lost my head 4 a min there. ANY1 who has an iota of reasoning, can manipulate an argument to his favour when there's none to counter him immediately, the Isrealis have further reaching crimes than simply building fences, and the blockade, what about unlawful land occupation, displacing millions and suppressing their voices still, these palestinians are choking now, they were ready to dialougue yet Isreal spat in there faces, and you say they shouldn't fight back. They don't hate the Jews as much as the Jews hate AND FEAR them. Even though they resort to self sacrifice, they have more honour than the effed Jews who racist Jews, who believe themselves superior to all on earth.
Also, i'm tired of the holocaust card they keep playing. Even though it was horrid, not one percent of the present Isreal met it, and besides, was it Arabs who did that to them, let em go face the Germans and lets see if there's a tomorrow for them.
You say God bless Isreal, i say God bless every where else.  

^^^ i think stupidity shows itself in this forum in various forms and ways.

when u see folks whom dont have any thing to contribute they first start by insulting u personally and attacking u, trying to derail the topic .

when u request they produce evidence and facts to buttress their arguments they result to name calling and using words that make them think they sound intelligent but underneath u could read the stupidity and the foolishness.

i dont think frosbel deserve your insult and name calling, if u have points to argue lay them bare and u would be respected for that.

if the Israelli claims they are better than anyone else thats their problem not mine. it does not put food on my table, if they want to drag 1st position they can have it there are more spaces in other positions as well.

so i wonder why if a man says his car is better than urs makes u angry and u develop so much hate. if his car is better than urs and so what? if Israelis claim they are better than any other human and so f.ucking what?

we know the idiots that result to name calling, we are still waiting for their evidence. kindly argue intelligently and show us facts and figures b4 u insult anyone.

@topic

or ---- Nigeria's Traitor and Evil Wishes!

frosbel:

Not as much help though as is needed by your Nigeria.

In fact Israel will decimate the Nigerian Military in less than 3 day, lol.

And by the way most of the scientists who invented and designed the technology anyway are Jews.

Mumu.

Parnassuss:

Fck u! I hope my msg is clear, bleep you Frosbel, think those hardboiled oppressors even consider political niceties, their paranoia destroys lives by the barrels each day and they still say they're right. I don't support the way the activists went about the flotilla biz but to justify Isreal's actions is just evil. By the blockade they arent keeping out as many enemies as they are making. the small shred of understanding I had for the state is gone with the wind. So bleep you i say again.

Its interesting that you had NOT ONE reasonable response to the article that was the topic of this thread.

frosbel does not know that the critics are winning, even though its baby step, At least there are many in the world that expressed their opinions against the proverbial (hindu style) "sacred cow" status that Israel having been enjoying against the palestinians, who are their victims. at least the government of Israel is shamed to allow goods to palestinians in the gaza strip. someday, the palestinians will gain enough support that Israel will be called out loud and clear enough that even america a country that I love will change her policy (inshaAllah) and advocate a true statehood for palestinians. Afteral, the palestinians are humans and there is enough christians among them to deserve the care of the christians, worldwide.

Is it not that the christians say that jesus was quoted as saying that when a single follower of his faith is in oppression, the rest should help him out of it, if not it is if he himself was being oppressed and you the christians dont care about it? Frosbel is supporting the oppresors of his lord Jesus against his lord Jesus, it seems to me.

The muslims and or the arabs are not fighting Israel. Israel is oppressing the palestinian people, both the muslims and the christians among them. It is this injustice from the state of Israel that God Almighty may make then a pharaoh and raise a Moses against them, or make them a goliat and raise up a David against them.

you just wait, frosbel. I am certain that you are in a loosing side. God is always with the oppressed. Unless you are going to say that the christians among the palestinians are not worshipping the Christian God? {lol; am trying to drag you through the sexpool of filth, based on your blind support without any morality, personal or religious}

frosbel is a supporter of oppressors of christians populations in palestine. i need to begin to shame you, just as the world's conscience will eventually shame the israelis.

nopuqeater:

frosbel is a supporter of oppressors of christians populations in palestine. i need to begin to shame you, just as the world's conscience will eventually shame the israelis.

What absolute nonsense . . . another of those islamic lies we are forced to read here daily. Sorry but the major problem of the christian population in the palestine area has been MUSLIMS! Infact so-called palestinian MUSLIMS!

The Beleaguered Christians in Bethlehem
by Khaled Abu Toameh
May 12, 2009 at 6:30 am

Christian families have long been complaining of intimidation and land theft by Muslims, especially those working for the Palestinian Authority.

Many Christians in Bethlehem and the nearby [Christian] towns of Bet Sahour and Bet Jalla have repeatedly complained that Muslims have been seizing their lands either by force or through forged documents.

In recent years, not only has the number of Christians continued to dwindle, but Bethlehem and its surroundings also became hotbeds for Hamas and Islamic Jihad supporters and members.

Moreover, several Christian women living in these areas have complained about verbal and sexual assaults by Muslim men.

Over the past few years, a number of Christian businessmen told me that they were forced to shut down their businesses because they could no longer afford to pay "protection" money to local Muslim gangs.

While it is true that the Palestinian Authority does not have an official policy of persecution against Christians, it is also true that this authority has not done enough to provide the Christian population with a sense of security and stability.

In addition, Christians continue to complain about discrimination when it comes to employment in the public sector. Since the establishment of the Palestinian Authority 15 years ago, for example, not a single Christian was ever appointed to a senior security post. Although Bethlehem has a Christian mayor, the governor, who is more senior than him, remains a Muslim.

As a Muslim journalist, I am always disgusted and ashamed when I hear from Christians living in the West Bank and Jerusalem about the challenges, threats and assaults that many of them have long been facing.

The reason why I feel like this is because those behind the assaults and threats are almost always Muslims.

For decades, the delicate and complicated issue of relations between Muslims and Christians in the Holy Land was treated by Palestinians as a taboo. Most Palestinians chose to live in denial, ignoring the fact that relations between the Muslim majority and the tiny Christian minority [about 10%] have been witnessing a setback, particularly over the past 15 years.

On the eve of Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the Holy Land, a Christian merchant told me jokingly: "The next time a pope comes to visit the Holy Land, he will have to bring his own priest with him pray in a church because most Christians would have left by then."

Indeed, the number of Christians leaving Bethlehem and other towns and cities appears to be on the rise, according to representatives of the Christian community in Jerusalem.

Today, Christians in Bethlehem constitute less than 15% of the population. Five or six decades ago, the Christians living in the birthplace of Jesus made up more than 70% of the population.

True, Israel's security measures in the West Bank have made living conditions more difficult for all Palestinians, Christians and Muslims alike. But to say that these measures are the main and sole reason for the Christian exodus from the Holy Land is misleading.

If the security fence and the occupation were the main reason, the Palestinian territories should by have been empty of both Muslims and Christians. These measures, after all, do not distinguish between Christians and Muslims.

On the other hand, it is also incorrect to assume that the Christians are leaving only because they are afraid of their Muslim neighbors. Christians are leaving because of the poor economy, and because they no longer feel secure in their homes. But they are also leaving because most of them, if not all, find it easier to merge into Christian-dominated societies in the US, Canada, EU and Latin America, where many of them already have relatives and friends.

In fact, Christians began leaving the Holy Land long before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967. But[b] the number of those moving to the US and Canada has sharply increased ever since the Palestinian Authority took control over Bethlehem and other Palestinian villages and cities.[/b] When the second intifada erupted in September 2000, Christian leaders said they were "terrified" by the large number of Christians who were leaving the country.

Ironically, leaders of the Palestinian Christians are also to blame for the ongoing plight of their people because they refuse to see the reality as it is. And the reality is that many Christians feel insecure and intimidated because of what we Muslims are doing to them and not only because of the bad economy.

When they go on the record, these leaders always insist that Israel and the occupation are the only reason behind the plight of their constituents. They stubbornly refuse to admit that many Christians are being targeted by Muslims. By not talking openly about the problem, the Christian leaders are encouraging the perpetrators to continue their harassment and assaults against Christian families.

And then the day will really come when the pope, on his next visit to the Holy Land, will not find any Christian to welcome him.†‮

http://www.hudson-ny.org/501/the-beleaguered-christians-in-bethlehem

I made a simple and directly verifiable statement, davidylan did not say I was wrong, but giving me the reason he and frosbel are not supporting their own christians, instead israel. The christians of palestine can be airlifted away from the bad wolf muslims to a christian sanctuary. Just like the way the Jews did operation David from Abasha/Ethopia to Israel. Muslims will take care of themselves, InshaAllah. The bad among them, will begin to be better muslims, stop smoking, and all the evil things that they do. Then Allah will strengthen them and they will defeat their enemy by the Will of Allah, just the believers of old defeated the enemies of true belief. These disbelievers are the worshippers of Tahgut. The Jews are by taking what their rabbis said over what Allah said, and by changing Allah's words from their places, and changing them to mean something else altogether, even.

David, you are poor excuse for a reader of facts.

Is this how to debate? If in the Apatheid regime of south africa, black people say that the jews and even the japanese were supporters of Apartheid, and instead of saying no, they just said the black youth scare us out of our minds, is that a defense?


David go and learn how to make relevant response to an idea, though your position may be opposing that of morally sound people. But when what you write is making people scratch their heads, i dont think you are helping your reputation. Its one thing to be in humane, but to give irrelevant response to a direct factual statement is silly.

nopuqeater:

I made a simple and directly verifiable statement

Where was it verified or have you no clue what words mean?

nopuqeater:

davidylan did not say I was wrong

no i actually called you a LIAR and provided VERIFIABLE PROOF.

nopuqeater:

but giving me the reason he and frosbel are not supporting their own christians

If you fool read that article at all it would show you there are very few christians in PNA/HAMAS controlled areas left to support no thanks to the criminal and evil actions of MUSLIMS (the article was written by a prominent muslim FATAH journalist by the way. did you miss where he specifically mentioned that the christian population of bethlehem has gone from 70% under Israeli control (the evil joos i suppose) to less than 15% now under muslim FATAH?

nopuqeater:

The christians of palestine can be airlifted away from the bad wolf muslims to a christian sanctuary.

its already happening idiot . . . here is an excerpt from the article again . . . In fact, Christians began leaving the Holy Land long before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967. But[b] the number of those moving to the US and Canada has sharply increased ever since the Palestinian Authority took control over Bethlehem and other Palestinian villages and cities. When the second intifada erupted in September 2000, Christian leaders said they were "terrified" by the large number of Christians who were leaving the country[/b].

nopuqeater:

Then Allah will strengthen them and they will defeat their enemy by the Will of Allah, just the believers of old defeated the enemies of true belief. These disbelievers are the worshippers of Tahgut. The Jews are by taking what their rabbis said over what Allah said, and by changing Allah's words from their places, and changing them to mean something else altogether, even.

What in the name of rationality is this?

nopuqeater:

David, you are poor excuse for a reader of facts.

what nonsense. where are your own facts?

nopuqeater:

Is this how to debate?

there is no need to "debate" you because you're not in a debate. Simply pointing out the vast innacuracies and downright lies in your dribbling islamic nonsense.

nopuqeater:

David go and learn how to make relevant response to an idea, though your position may be opposing that of morally sound people. But when what you write is making people scratch their heads, i dont think you are helping your reputation. Its one thing to be in humane, but to give irrelevant response to a direct factual statement is silly.

Mumbo jumbo of meaningless words. Did you attend school at all?

What you postulated was NOT an idea . . . but a rabid lie from the handbook of mohammad.

I took the time out to read your bolded. in all of "it", where is the effort of the christians around the world, like you and frosbel, etc to protect your own, the palestinian christians.

if there were no organized mouth piece for the palestinians (PLO served that for many decades), am sure the Israelis would have said nothing was wrong with the well fed, well protected palestinians. though the leaership of the palestinians are inadequate and bad, but the more dire condition is not to have a leadership at all.

people like you, if it was not the attentions called on palestinian issues for the world to know israel for what she is, evil and vile, more nazist than the third reich, you would have said all was okay with palestinian christians. do you know about george abbass of the PLO? his terrost actions were not worse than what izhak schemiar did to king david hotel in Jerusalem.

my advise to the palestinians is that they be patient, united and have a single purpose. gain footholds of corridors of powers around the world like the jews have successfully done. that way they will be able to neutralize the influence of jewish lobbies and shame the society controlling the pulse of theglobal politics about the evil of zionist israel.

in time God Almighty may make palestinians, christians and muslims and others overcome their oppressors, even without a single blood drop.

nopuqeater:

I took the time out to read your bolded. in all of "it", where is the effort of the christians around the world, like you and frosbel, etc to protect your own, the palestinian christians.

what utter stupidity. So the "christians" in palestine (alleged co-land owners with the muslims) need the help of christian nations to protect them in THEIR OWN HOUSES? Is this your own way of excusing religious genocide? You are quite disgusting.

nopuqeater:

people like you, if it was not the attentions called on palestinian issues for the world to know israel for what she is, evil and vile, more nazist than the third reich, you would have said all was okay with palestinian christians. do you know about george abbass of the PLO? his terrost actions were not worse than what izhak schemiar did to king david hotel in Jerusalem.

the problem with palestinian christians has nothing to do with israel but muslims. READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN . . . it was written by a muslim.

nopuqeater:

my advise to the palestinians is that they be patient, united and have a single purpose. gain footholds of corridors of powers around the world like the jews have successfully done. that way they will be able to neutralize the influence of jewish lobbies and shame the society controlling the pulse of theglobal politics about the evil of zionist israel.

in time God Almighty may make palestinians, christians and muslims and others overcome their oppressors, even without a single blood drop.

nonsense.

@davidylan; « #16 on: Yesterday at 11:01:08 PM »
[quote what utter stupidity. So the "christians" in palestine (alleged co-land owners with the muslims) need the help of christian nations to protect them in THEIR OWN HOUSES? Is this your own way of excusing religious genocide? You are quite disgusting.

[/quote]David, do you have any ability to think? Palestinian christians are not afraid of their own brothers and sisters who are muslims. They are all palestinians. They are afraid of the Jews, and zonists, probably like your type [christian zionists], who fail to see that the palestinians want freedom, self determination, their own homeland, returns of their family homes and lands and properties stolen, confisticated, bull dozed by your lords, the Jews. This was my statement.


You are too enraged to see that. My proof that palestinian christians do want the zionists to get lost; first before even addressing religious difference among their own people is that it is the Jews who see Palestinians, regardless of their religion. the palestinians have lived as palestinians for hundreds of years, ignoring their religious differences. Afterall, the period of enlightenment with Christian europe began under the muslim andulisians of spain.

I know you do not see that, een though the re are two muslim families in Jerusalem;s Palestine that have the keys, to open and close your Major Church because you see the muslims as the fairest of all abbetrators. Up till now, the christians have never demanded for the keys knowing fully well that it could not be in the hands of a better group than the muslims.


Today in the PLO ruling body, you have christian men and women. What kind of nonsense are you talking about? In the past you have George Abbass and others as part of the individuals fighting the zionists. George is a christian name; or is that muslim? Instead of saving the christians from the clutches of the zionists, you are one of the foreign zionists from the gentiles supporting the oppressors of the palestinian christians. Go back and read my two previous posts. I simply said that if you christians are good christians, support the christian alestinians against the oppressions that they are under at the hand of the zionists. The muslims will definitely, in the long run tae care of themselves, InshaAllah, they shall be victorious.



[quote]the problem with palestinian christians has nothing to do with israel but muslims. READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN . . . it was written by a muslim.

Among the muslims, there are some who are just that by names. They are hypocrites. If a group colonnises your homeland, the first thing you do is to unite against them. Thats what nigerians did and they got rid of the british, after so much struggle. from among the nigerians, there were house colonnial boys and girls who did not want white people to leave. That muslim writer from USA, saying is palestinian is like that. His position is very similar ro the starter of a thread which was celebrating the two nigerianblooded british MPs.


The poster, claimed to be an igbo doctor who left nigeria as a refugee in the early 70s, thought the war ended in January, 1970. But what this man did was to turn everything to Briafran issue, whereas he married a white woman as if igbo women are not good for his inferior slave mind? These are similar to the Muslim palestinian writer position. While muslim palestinians are fighting for palestine against the zionists, they did not say the christians are not welcome. Infact the christians are in the leadership. It is not on religion, but it is a nationalistci agenda. stop your lies. Whereever you come from in nigeria, just imagine somebody took oer your family property. I almost believe you will not even care your family foundation is uprooted.

nonsense.

Which is nonsense? God that has all powers or that the weak and the downtrodden can be victorious?

there you have the unclothedness of hypocritical nigerian. flying high the flag of a foreign country. blessing her while at no time blesses nigeria, never mind about her flag.

Nopuqeater,

I would be interested in any of your quote showing similar outrage you show for Middle east when the killings in Jos, Kaduna, Kano, Bauchi, Maiduguri are going on Or where was your comment and outrage about the killings in Darfur?

my outrage was already recorded within the groups or individuals i came in contact with when the events you mentioned occurred. i was not part of Nairaland then and i did my best to express my displeasure to any muslim and i will continue to do so, that killing innocent people, and starting a fight is not sharia and it is not sunnah, either.

i asked Sudanese i knew why the heck people were killing others. i wrote a letter to the consulate in NY city and made many calls. whateer i got was not a justification for a muslim killing another, a muslim raping another, a muslim forcing another to flee. eck it is not satisfactory for a muslim or non muslim to kill anyone.

there is no evil that a muslim commits regardless of whatever pretension, it is not justifiable and always unislamic. I dont know how best i can express my outrage against evil, and my hope for muslims if not all human beings to value lives and elevate humanity in man.