Continuing from Post #39 here wher you wrote:

nopuqeater:

@Aletheia:Did the verse above gave you theinkling to the bolded? There were unrightoues people even from the son of Adam and Eve. cain was unrighteous. Jesus will Judge Cain? You think?

Please read again carefully the verse you referenced and the part you yourself bolded:

Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
He will come again the second time in Justice to execute judgment on all the unrighteous.

Does the verse say anywhere that some unrighteous people will be excluded? As you rightly pointed out:
1. There were unrightoues[sic] people even from the son of Adam and Eve.
2. cain was unrighteous.
Your question: Jesus will Judge Cain? Answer: Yes. The verse clearly says He will judge all the unrighteous. By your admission, Cain was unrighteous so. . .

nopuqeater:

Jesus words or God words, or Angel of God words or Pauls words?If this was a harry Porter dialogue, monologue, the witches and wizard officianadoes will not find it spiritually off their espected scale. But a religion that says there is God, and professes not to be idolatry?

Here you reference Revelation 19:11-16.

Revelation 19:11-16
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

This describes someone coming down from heaven, One who will judge and rule the nations. In what way does it resemble a Harry Potter dialogue. The text is clear. You as a Muslim believe that Jesus will return one day, but you scoff at the biblical description of that triumphant return. Didn't your prophet according to your beliefs ascend on a winged horse in this sura?

Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.

I suppose I could describe this as a "a harry Porter dialogue, monologue, [that] witches and wizard officianadoes will not find it spiritually off their espected scale."

nopuqeater:

Now when you sin against God, what can you possibly do to offset his Perfect Justice? The bible makes clear that the wages (rewards or recompense) of sin is death. . .so as a man, what can you do to offset the demands of Perfect Justice because it is impossible to escape Perfect Justice? And that's why. . .it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27), for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).

The bolded kills "Rapture". Or it doesnt ?

I suppose you believe that you have produced a telling argument against the catching up of believers by Jesus when He returns. The problem is that you are arguing from your limited and beclouded perspective. What do you understand by death? Is it based on your human suppositions as to what death is? Or what God tells us death is?

The bible is quite clear that there are two deaths. All men will experience the first death. Those whose names are not found in the book will be subjected to the second death.
Rev 20:6. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14, 15. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So the bible explicitly defines the second death. What about the first death? Again the bible tells us what it is:
James 2:26. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Ecclesiastes 12:7. and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So death then is when the spirit becomes separated from the body. For Christians, death is a transition, much like put off the clothes I wore in the evening in order to put on new clothes in the morning.

2 Cor 5:1-10. For we know that if the tent, which is our earthly home, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found unclothed. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
And what happens at the "rapture" when Jesus returns triumphantly?
1.  I Thes 4:16, 17. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first [see Gal 2:20]. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
2. I Cor 15:35-38. But someone will ask, How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
3. I Cor 15:42-49. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. [I enjoin you to read the whole of ch 15]
So by the definition of James 2, even the believers alive at the return of Jesus 'technically' experience death, for their spirits become separated from their earthly bodies in other to put on the new heavenly bodies.

nopuqeater:

And the Biblical God cursed all mankind. If He did, all men are doomed. No one will enter paradise, or for Christians, the heaven.

Again you come close to the truth and yet balk at accepting it. All men are doomed and in need of salvation. Why do you struggle with this concept? Even your conscience agrees with me that before the Perfectly Just God, no one is clean & even you are guilty of many sins. And so no man is worthy of entering into the presence of the Holy One, or has the Prophet of Islam done so?

nopuqeater:

If anyone enters paradise or christian's heaven as christian wishes to say, then this God changed His mind. He did not say He will ransome and show evidence that this was possible. We see that when he ransomed the son of Abraham, it was instantaneously. This ransome you spoke about that you are putting Jesus as the ransome, should have been instantaneous at the time of Adam and Eve's sinfulness.

Salvation is instantaneous. YHWH is All-knowing and All-Powerful and His Plan is Perfect. Before even the world was created, knowing that Adam would sin, He had already made a way.

I Peter 1:18-21. knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

nopuqeater:

Instead your Bible said Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloi curse man till te last day. So regardless how you present it, 2000 year event of ransome according to you did not remove the curse from man; women still get the birth pain, and men still work hard for his earning.

1. You misread the text and repeat your assertion. Show where in Genesis 3, God cursed man. Wasn't it the ground and the serpent that God cursed.
2. Before you begin to roll out verses where individuals: Understand this: Adam as the progenitor of Mankind was not cursed, for if he was then there would have been no hope of salvation, for all of us are descended from Adam, and as in one man all die. . .

nopuqeater:

Which is correct, since the curse is not removed, it seems as if the ransome thing didnt work as expected. But God Who can decide everything He wants as He did on Jesus forcing him to die, acccording to you, should have been able to show real mercy by just ransoming people without killing a man who did not want to die, and it is not like anyone can challenge Yahweh "hey why do you forgive man without any payment"?, when you said you dont even want the blood of animals, why do you have to kill a man who did not want to?

1. The curse of sin was removed. Perhaps you need to find out what the curse of sin is?
Galatians 3:13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree—
2. I have addressed this in earlier posts (why are you going round in circles?). Please answer these questions sincerely as you understand it from your perspective as a Muslim:
[a] What is the price of the ransom for a man's life?
[b] Who can pay that ransom? Can someone else also under the same penalty of Judgment pay the ransom?
[c] What ransom can nopuqeater give to the All-Powerful and Perfectly Just God to remove punishment for failing to measure up to the Perfect Standard of His Law?
Since nopuqeater is not a perfect man, I wonder how he perfectly keeps the Perfect Law of the Perfect God who demands perfection from the sons of Adam?

nopuqeater:

I hope you are not saying this means Jesus or some ransome to be sure that no christian will go to lake of fire? Well i am sure you know that some Christians will go to the lake, at least it is stated that Jesus will deny some "christians", even the big miracle performers. All these prove that the ransome, if there was did not do the trick, for the essence of Christianity is to believe in Jesus. Even with that hell fire is still the abode of many of the christians.

If by Christian, you mean church-goers or even anyone whose name happens to John, James, etc, then yes, alot of "Christians" will go to hell, just as many "Muslims" (people who congregate on Fridays to pray in mosques) or whose names happen to be Muhammad, Abdullah, etc, will also be there with them. Indeed you are even assured of it!

[19:71] Every single one of you must see it; this is an irrevocable decision of your Lord.

You are right that "the essence of Christianity is to believe in Jesus." Again you drift close to the truth, and yet fail to grasp it! What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Hear his own words:

John 8:23, 24. He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

nopuqeater:

Jesus is not unique here. . .

Why do you deny even your own Koran?
1. Who else apart from Adam and Eve did not have an earthly father?
2. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran is known as the Messiah? What does the word Messiah imply?
3. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran is still alive today?

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

Even the Koran testifies to the resurrection of Jesus!
4. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran will return someday to judge the earth?

nopuqeater:

In Noah's time, God decreed that he was going to destroy the world by a flood and commanded Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the coming judgment. For the people at that time, it would have seemed a preposterous idea. Flood? What flood? When they had seen nothing like rain ever before. No doubt they scoffed at the message of Noah. How could water fall from the sky, when all their human understanding, science and knowledge suggested otherwise. We know that only those who entered the ark were saved. All those outside perished.

You are wrong by the bolded. Considering that the time of Noah, the ozone layer was not this depleted and rainforest will een have more rainfall as we have in rainforest of today. Even the desert then will have more rainfall than the desert of today. Even in Sahara, rain falls in it. So to say there was no rainfall experience in time of Noah, before the flood was complete misinformation. The people knew rain does fall. When Noah said it, they just would not take it as to be so much to end in a desastous way for anyone.

He he he. Like I said I prefer to discuss what is in the Bible and not introduce human conjectures. Here is what the Bible says about atmospheric conditions before the Flood.

Ge 2: 5-6. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—

nopuqeater:

When you read the Quran and if you consider the Bible thoroughly, too, you will see that the one who is worshipping the One God is head and shoulder over the one who says God is 3.

No believer in Jesus says God is 3. But I guess, this is what you tell yourself in order to sleep well at night when your conscience asks you: What if on the day of Judgment, I find that the Christians have been right all along?

nopuqeater:

In surah Maryam, Allah says no intercession will be permitted except the one who has been permitted to make Intercession.

So who is the one permitted to make intercession? Isn't it the one whom scriptures and history show to be the One-Jesus of Nazareth.

nopuqeater:

Muhammad has been permitted to make intercession, before any creation can. The first is last, the best is last. Muhammad is the best. Now we have a prayer that we make when ahdan and or iqamah are made. Part of it is about Allah's promise that Muhammad will make intercession on behalf of believers will be fulfilled, guaranteed by the Creator Himself.

^^^This is just the interpolation inserted by Muslims when confronted by even the Koran itself by the evidence of Jesus' unique nature to make Muhammad seem superior to Jesus. Let's consider the words of Muhammad, your own prophet:

'The Prophet said, '''By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me''' (Hadith vol. 5, no. 266).

JESUS is alive with God Koran 3,55;4,158,159), while Muhammad is dead and buried in Medina AWAITING JUDGMENT. How can the DEAD make intercession for the LIVING?

^^^Thank you for having the fortitude as a human being to open this thread and thereby stand your ground. This I do appreciate and my Eloi the One that sent Jesus Christ son of Mary reward with good for it.

« on: Today at 06:09:49 PM » Continuing from Post #39 here wher you wrote:
Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 06:49:06 AM
@Aletheia:Did the verse above gave you theinkling to the bolded? There were unrightoues people even from the son of Adam and Eve. cain was unrighteous. Jesus will Judge Cain? You think?
Please read again carefully the verse you referenced and the part you yourself bolded:

Whats there to reread? I read it and I asked you, will Jesus judge Cain, the son of Adam who killed his brother? I had expected a direct answer and explanation if it was yes. Since I do not read mind, I would not know your answer, and there is no indication that even Noah knew of Jesus. But each of these people knew who Eloi is. Jesus himself knew about Eloi Who sent him and controlled his destiny. Your point is lost in your hasty dynamism. Explain if you will.

Quote Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

The many here indicated "not all". So Jesus served many and a ransome for many, but in each case there was no "all". But then, how do we know that Jesus said this sentence himself?

He will come again the second time in Justice to execute judgment on all the unrighteous.

This very statement of his second coming indicates when read with the first part of Matt 20/28, above that Jesus will now execute justice of his purpose, which is to denounce the lies against him or anyone like the "another comforter" that came after him, and definitely denounces lies against Eloi, Who sent him the first and the second time. If you look at the first part, the past tense "came" was used, to indicate Jesus was not teh speaker, and definitely the second part, a future action which is what am responding to now was not said by Jesus. If Jesus did not say the past, he would not be in the position to say the future as well. From Islamic perspective, we know Jesus will come, but as what and under what rules and condiions? He didnt live as a christian so one will not expect him to come now as a christian. If you argue that he will not come as a muslim, the only thing you can do is that he will come as a Jew. That was his generic ethnicity. His religion, since he worshipped and serve Eloi could be different, and there enter Islam as it did for all Messengers and Prophets of Eloi, by their total submission, which is the definition of Islam, simply put.

Does the verse say anywhere that some unrighteous people will be excluded? As you rightly pointed out:
1. There were unrightoues[sic] people even from the son of Adam and Eve.
2. cain was unrighteous.
Your question: Jesus will Judge Cain? Answer: Yes. The verse clearly says He will judge all the unrighteous. By your admission, Cain was unrighteous so. . .

Not quite so. Rememeber that you said Jesus was sent to all people? But Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep [disobedients sould are lost sheep], of the house of Israel. He preached his gospel as such and warned his people to not go beyond that barrier. There was Israel and there was Judea. Two countries. Here in America we refer to this singular country as "the world", in many instances; World series, in baseball finals. And we live in the 21st century knowing fully well that the United states, a country of just 360,000,000 is calling herself the world, ignoring the rest of over 6,000,000,000 people living outside her. How is the "world" as we use it in todays america to refer to ourself, not what is absolutely the case when Jesus said preach to the "world" considering none of his followers was a non-children of israel, and he never sent an emissary to anyone or kingdom outside the boundry of te children of Israel, and he never made that gospel reach anyone by his own effort?


[Quote] Here you reference Revelation 19:11-16.
Quote
Revelation 19:11-16
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
This describes someone coming down from heaven, One who will judge and rule the nations. In what way does it resemble a Harry Potter dialogue. The text is clear. You as a Muslim believe that Jesus will return one day, but you scoff at the biblical description of that triumphant return. Didn't your prophet according to your beliefs ascend on a winged horse in this sura?[/quote]Alehi Salaam rode on Boraq. Musa, Alehi salaam also rode on Boraq before Muhammad (AS). I am not talking about what Jesus said, if he said it, fine. Show it to me from the lips of Jesus son of Mary who Eloi sent. Am however scoffing at the "vision" of a person seeing so far in daylight (remember that some naration about seeing heaven opens up, regardless of the clouds and limited human vision, seeing the "spirit of God" descend like a dove, and hearing the Voicwe of Eloi?), and not in a dream the heaven, and the above description in the revelation. Did Jesus tell anyone how he will return, when? How he didnt, but when he did, unfortunately he didnt make the date.
Now, if you take it that Muhammad (AS) went to heaven on Boraq [remember that the essence of my conversation is that Jesus son of Mary who Eloi sent, was not so unique as you make him to be? Muhammad completed a go to heaven and return to earth journey in part of a day, far suprior than what Jesus did and even in addition to what jesus will do], how come you think he will need Jesus to intercede for him, the beloved of ELoi?

Quote
Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.
I suppose I could describe this as a "a harry Porter dialogue, monologue, [that] witches and wizard officianadoes will not find it spiritually off their espected scale."

You have already. The reason you rejected the lastest revelation. You dont have to say it. Your action belies whats in your heart. By the way, do you read the "He, Only He, is the Hearer and the Seer"? Who qualifies to be this except Eloi Who sent Jesus son on Mary?

I suppose you believe that you have produced a telling argument against the catching up of believers by Jesus when He returns. The problem is that you are arguing from your limited and beclouded perspective. What do you understand by death?

Am approaching death. This I know. Death is the removal of soul from the body by the angel of death. A dead person cant eat. A dead person does not need his body to be oiled as if to nurse him back to health. A dead person's blood do not flow as it use dto flow when he was fully alive. But the bloood of a person who fainted flows even at that tme. A dead person will be buried in the ground and be covered by the earth from his grave. What else do you want me to say? I have washed dead people. I have carried dead people. I have seen people dying. Is there anythng that I dont know about death except experience it, which I pray that Eloi who sent Jesus will not let me experience for a long time to come. Amin.Evryone who went to christian grammar schools will have to have experience in reading the Bible. I read enough already.

Is it based on your human suppositions as to what death is? Or what God tells us death is?

What is death, based on what God says about it?

The bible is quite clear that there are two deaths. All men will experience the first death.

Here is where your "Rapture" fails. Now you can sing it on the top of the mountain. Was rapture not to inure some people not to die the first death? If they all died the first time, where is Rapture in action? This alone proof my point of the topic of the thread. We do not need to go further unless you are saying that rapture is the absent of the second death? Maybe because am not concern about death the second time, I will not even open a response?

Those whose names are not found in the book will be subjected to the second death.
Rev 20:6. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14, 15. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So the bible explicitly defines the second death. What about the first death? Again the bible tells us what it is:
James 2:26. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Ecclesiastes 12:7. and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So death then is when the spirit becomes separated from the body. For Christians, death is a transition, much like put off the clothes I wore in the evening in order to put on new clothes in the morning.

2 Cor 5:1-10. For we know that if the tent, which is our earthly home, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found unclothed. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
And what happens at the "rapture" when Jesus returns triumphantly?
1. I Thes 4:16, 17. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first [see Gal 2:20]. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
2. I Cor 15:35-38. But someone will ask, How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
3. I Cor 15:42-49. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. [I enjoin you to read the whole of ch 15]
So by the definition of James 2, even the believers alive at the return of Jesus 'technically' experience death, for their spirits become separated from their earthly bodies in other to put on the new heavenly bodies.

Just to let you know, i did not read any of the above, since my point have been proven even by you, by the fact that "everyone" will die, including those who were alive when Jesus arrives. You said above everyone will die. Now proof to me that the people that Jesus sees in this second specifically the Christians, who are the believers by your own agreement will escape death, the first death which you said everyone will have to go through? Maybe you will throw away the statement that not "everyone" will have to go through death, for the first time. Then you will kill your own argument, all by yourself.

nopuqeater:

Whats there to reread? I read it and I asked you, will Jesus judge Cain, the son of Adam who killed his brother? I had expected a direct answer and explanation if it was yes. Since I do not read mind, I would not know your answer, and there is no indication that even Noah knew of Jesus. But each of these people knew who Eloi is. Jesus himself knew about Eloi Who sent him and controlled his destiny. Your point is lost in your hasty dynamism. Explain if you will.

^^^
Please sir, don't be too hasty to reply to my posts. An intelligent discourse between both of us requires that we both ponder the words of the other. Did I not give you a direct answer and explanation as you expected?

aletheia:

Continuing from Post #39 here wher you wrote:
Please read again carefully the verse you referenced and the part you yourself bolded:Does the verse say anywhere that some unrighteous people will be excluded? As you rightly pointed out:
1. There were unrightoues[sic] people even from the son of Adam and Eve.
2. cain was unrighteous.
Your question: Jesus will Judge Cain? [size=14pt]Answer: Yes.[/size] The verse clearly says He will judge all the unrighteous. By your admission, Cain was unrighteous so. . .

nopuqeater:

The many here indicated "not all". So Jesus served many and a ransome for many, but in each case there was no "all". But then, how do we know that Jesus said this sentence himself?

^^^True the text says many. The offer of salvation is available to all. Not everyone will accept it but many will receive the promise of Jesus. As it is written:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-Jesus' own words

nopuqeater:

This very statement of his second coming indicates when read with the first part of Matt 20/28, above that Jesus will now execute justice of his purpose, which is to denounce the lies against him or anyone like the "another comforter" that came after him, and definitely denounces lies against Eloi, Who sent him the first and the second time. If you look at the first part, the past tense "came" was used, to indicate Jesus was not teh speaker, and definitely the second part, a future action which is what am responding to now was not said by Jesus. If Jesus did not say the past, he would not be in the position to say the future as well.

The text is quite clear that Jesus is the one speaking. So the question for you becomes, who is "the Son of Man"? Jesus referred to himself several times as the "Son of Man," a peculiarly Jewish expression that clearly referenced His Messiah-ship (something that even the Koran acknowledges). Again I repeat my question to you: what for you as a Muslim does the title Messiah connote?

nopuqeater:

From Islamic perspective, we know Jesus will come, but as  what and under what rules and condiions? He didnt live as a christian so one will not expect him to come now as a christian. If you argue that he will not come as a muslim, the only thing you can do is that he will come as a Jew. That was his generic ethnicity. His religion, since he worshipped and serve Eloi could be different, and there enter Islam as it did for all Messengers and Prophets of Eloi, by their total submission, which is the definition of Islam, simply put.

Good for you that you know that Jesus will return. That is in keeping with the reality that He is Lord over all, including Muhammad! For your information even the demons know the reality that Jesus is Lord and will return one day.

Mark 1:24. What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.
Matt 8:28, 29. And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. And behold, they cried out, What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?

nopuqeater:

Not quite so. Rememeber that you said Jesus was sent to all people? But Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep [disobedients sould are lost sheep], of the house of Israel. He preached his gospel as such and warned his people to not go beyond that barrier. There was Israel and there was Judea. Two countries. Here in America we refer to this singular country as "the world", in many instances; World series, in baseball finals. And we live in the 21st century knowing fully well that the United states, a country of just 360,000,000 is calling herself the world, ignoring the rest of over 6,000,000,000 people living outside her. How is the "world" as we use it in todays america to refer to ourself, not what is absolutely the case when Jesus said preach to the "world" considering none of his followers was a non-children of israel, and he never sent an emissary to anyone or kingdom outside the boundry of te children of Israel, and he never made that gospel reach anyone by his own effort?

^^^You have to say that, because all your life you have been taught that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets.
Unfortunately, with implications for your eternal destiny, it is not so. Jesus is the seal and capstone of all prophecy.

Heb 1-4. Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
As for your assertion that Jesus only ministered to Jews. You discount the accounts of the Samaritan, Phoenician woman, the Roman Centurion. . .and the words of Jesus Himself:

Matt 28:18-20. And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
How did "all nations," transmute into only the geographic boundaries of Israel? I fear you are transposing your world-view on to the bible. Something even some Christians are guilty of - accounting for the numerous untrue interpretations we see. If you are going to argue from the Bible, then allow the text to say what it says.

nopuqeater:

Alehi Salaam rode on Boraq. Musa, Alehi salaam also rode on Boraq before Muhammad (AS). I am not talking about what Jesus said, if he said it, fine. Show it to me from the lips of Jesus son of Mary who Eloi sent. Am however scoffing at the "vision" of a person seeing so far in daylight (remember that some naration about seeing heaven opens up, regardless of the clouds and limited human vision, seeing the "spirit of God" descend like a dove, and hearing the Voicwe of Eloi?), and not in a dream the heaven, and the above description in the revelation. Did Jesus tell anyone how he will return, when? How he didnt, but when he did, unfortunately he didnt make the date.

You ask me to show you where Jesus said he would return? Let me demonstrate to you the inconsistency of your question:
1. You believe that Jesus is returning some day.
2. You believe that Jesus is a True Prophet of YHWH.
3. Yet you quibble when I write that Jesus (a True Prophet) will someday return. Is it inconceivable to you that if as you believe He is a True Prophet, He was telling the truth when He said He will return someday (as you yourself believe).

Read then the testimony of Jesus concerning His return in His own words:

1. Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
2. Luke 21: 26, 27. And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

And for you 'scoffing at the "vision" of a person seeing so far in daylight (remember that some naration about seeing heaven opens up, regardless of the clouds and limited human vision, seeing the "spirit of God" descend like a dove, and hearing the Voicwe of Eloi?' Why do you find it preposterous, considering you believe that your prophet went up on Boraq? The irony of the situation is that even Muslims are unsure whether the incident was a dream or a night vision. And yet you scoff at another prophet's vision.

nopuqeater:

You have already. The reason you rejected the lastest revelation. You dont have to say it. Your action belies whats in your heart. By the way, do you read the "He, Only He, is the Hearer and the Seer"? Who qualifies to be this except Eloi Who sent Jesus son on Mary?

^^^The reason I reject it is because Jesus not Muhammad is the Final Revelation.
Revelation 1: 1-3. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

---

P.S. Why do you refer to your god as Eloi, seeing as in the Koran, he calls himself Allah? Or do you substitute Eloi when reciting the Shahada?

nopuqeater:

Just to let you know, i did not read any of the above, since my point have been proven even by you, by the fact that "everyone" will die, including those who were alive when Jesus arrives. You said above everyone will die. Now proof to me that the people that Jesus sees in this second specifically the Christians, who are the believers by your own agreement will escape death, the first death which you said everyone will have to go through? Maybe you will throw away the statement that not "everyone" will have to go through death, for the first time. Then you will kill your own argument, all by yourself.

^^^nuclearboy warned me that I was taking on a job in engaging you. How can we have a meaningful dialogue when you it's obvious your mind is made up already? How can you show the supposed superiority of your religion when you don't even bother to read posts?! Or are you just someone programmed to regurgitate what was beaten into him during childhood.
If you want me to take you serious, please read the post and respond to the issues I raised there.

Again you come close to the truth and yet balk at accepting it. All men are doomed and in need of salvation

Is Eloi not enough as a Salvation of His Creations? Why did he give rules, commands, all as road maps to man to follow? Why there prophets, messengers of Eloi? What was it that Moses brought that jesus warned the people not to abolish, that he himself practiced, it, yet you stated along with the christians that it was not good enough to get Aaron to paradise, even Moses who spoke to Eloi, will need Jesus to secure his "salvation"? Did Eloi told Moses that this was hi fate, as hard as he worked, facing Pharaoh and many other nations? I want to know what OT lacked, though Jesus couldnt do without it, but you underhandedly wave it away so much so that you say Jesus is now the salvation for the great prophet Moses, who received the 10 Commandments from Eloi? What did Jesus son of Mary who Eloi send brough from Eloi that rendered Moses, and 10 Commandments, etc useless?

Why do you struggle with this concept? Even your conscience agrees with me that before the Perfectly Just God, no one is clean & even you are guilty of many sins. And so no man is worthy of entering into the presence of the Holy One, or has the Prophet of Islam done so?

You mean the last prophet of Islam, Muhammad [as]? Muhammad, you remember went to heavens, and beyond it to receive the last 4 verses of Chapter 2 and the 5 daily salah. Remember you spoke about the Boraq, just above? I told you then that you did not accept Muhammad (as) all along, though you didnt say it, but your action spoke about your true nature.



[Quote] Salvation is instantaneous. YHWH is All-knowing and All-Powerful and His Plan is Perfect. Before even the world was created, knowing that Adam would sin, He had already made a way.[/quote]That way was seeking forgiveness, and following His commands, orders, and worshipping Him alone as he ordered man in His manual for guidance. This is Mercy. Not the statement that somebosy will die for you, etc stuff.

Quote
I Peter 1:18-21. knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Is it not certain that the sin of father shall not be asked from the son? If he were to be asked, then the son of the sussessive generation, will have accumulated successive sins of the fathers! Definitely, Cain from the first generation is going to have a lighter sin of murder, than the last man who didnt kill anyone!  



[Quote]1. You misread the text and repeat your assertion. Show where in Genesis 3, God cursed man. Wasn't it the ground and the serpent that God cursed.
2. Before you begin to roll out verses where individuals: Understand this: Adam as the progenitor of Mankind was not cursed, for if he was then there would have been no hope of salvation, for all of us are descended from Adam, and as in one man all die. . .[/quote]You forgot the "ORIGINAL sin". Now explain that concept, or it does not exist, anymore? Tell me, what will be the reason the christians are calling Jesus the 2nd Adam? If there is no original sin via Adam, then tell me why do you continue to drum the "Salvation" by Jesus? It will have no base, at all. Now where is the reason to even think of it, if there was no originalsin?



[Quote]1. The curse of sin was removed. Perhaps you need to find out what the curse of sin is?
Galatians 3:13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree—[/quote]Galatians from post Jesus writings. But then Jesus soul was cursed? Who cursed the soul? WHo removed it? Who is in charge; Eloi or Jesus? Though I do not want to respond to anything after Gospel, but you just dont have an argument except it. Now Jesus soul is cursed. I said that before and you got really upset as if I made it up. You just concurred.

2. I have addressed this in earlier posts (why are you going round in circles?). Please answer these questions sincerely as you understand it from your perspective as a Muslim:
[a] What is the price of the ransom for a man's life?

Simple and Pure Mercy from Eloi Who sent Jesus son of Mary. All He has to say is "You are forgiven. Enter my paradise." Thats Mercy. Not the mumbo jumbo "somebody must die, before I am satisfied to forgive those who worship Me and do good along with it."

Who can pay that ransom?

There is no need to pay for anything> ELoi is Most merciful, Most Forgiving. He needs nothing from no one. Everyone needs Him.

Can someone else also under the same penalty of Judgment pay the ransom?

No. There is no presidence for it. Eloi is Most capable of doing all things, including wholesale forgiveness without battering of any kind. Definitely not a senseless slaughter of a soul that openly hated to die, the reason Jesus cried out "my Eloi, my ELoi, "

[c] What ransom can nopuqeater give to the All-Powerful and Perfectly Just God to remove punishment for failing to measure up to the Perfect Standard of His Law?

The road map is in the Quran. I made prayer as in Surah "FAtiha" and Eloi gave me the answer fro Surah baqarah all the way to Surah Nas. Allah blesses me with Muhammad [as] in my time, to live in his prophet period

Since nopuqeater is not a perfect man, I wonder how he perfectly keeps the Perfect Law of the Perfect God who demands perfection from the sons of Adam?

Eloi does not demand "perfection' from us the sons of Adam. What he demands from us is our full submission in worshipping Him, not to worsjip anything with Him. And do the best you can of good work and kindness, and when I fall seek forgiveness and mercy from Him with greater intensity and hope in His Mercy. I do not neeany blood or medium to get to Him. I approach Him directly. Though am His slave, I talk to Him. You who says you are His son installed a medium between the two of you. Now who is truly a free soul between this slave who talks to ELoi and your son of God who needs a go between and salvation through somebody else to go to your father Yahweh? If he is your father you will not need anyone, since me who is His slave approach Him directly.



[Quote]If by Christian, you mean church-goers or even anyone whose name happens to John, James, etc, then yes, alot of "Christians" will go to hell, just as many "Muslims" (people who congregate on Fridays to pray in mosques) or whose names happen to be Muhammad, Abdullah, etc, will also be there with them. Indeed you are even assured of it![/quote]And after a long time, even those casual muslims, even with just a singe Salah on earth will be removed from Hell. Except if he was a hypocrite all along on earth, he will remain. But if a single christian who believes in th blood of Jesus goes to hell, the blood has not worked.

Quote [19:71] Every single one of you must see it; this is an irrevocable decision of your Lord.

No one says Eloi will punish every single Muslim as they see it. You can see something in order to appreciate what you get apart from what you saw.

You are right that "the essence of Christianity is to believe in Jesus." Again you drift close to the truth, and yet fail to grasp it! What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Hear his own words:
Quote John 8:23, 24. He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

Muhammad was said in the Quran by his Eloi that "We raise you to the highest of esteem so that you are remembered as such" Surah Shiraqa. Every Messenger and or prophet is of the highest level over and above his community. Moses spoke to Eloi, one on one more time you can count. Ibrahim is proclaimed by ELoi as Hid personal Friend. And under the prayer of anger of Noah, ELoi killed off disobedient souls by fwith flood.  



[Quote] from: nopuqeater on Today at 06:49:06 AM
Jesus is not unique here. . .
Why do you deny even your own Koran? [/quote]It is Quran. There is a great difference between Qaf of Quran and kaf.

1. Who else apart from Adam and Eve did not have an earthly father?]/quote]Are you familiar with the productions of the workers, soldiers of the termites and ants colonies? Their eggs develop without male sperm. Does that not make the "not an earthly father concept" just another way of creation, like any other with father and mother or just clone (Eve could be said to be cloned)?

2. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran is known as the Messiah? What does the word Messiah imply?

There are greater titles or equal to Messiah n the Quran. Qalamullah is Musa (AS). Eloi spoke through him. Massiah dijjal, you dont wanna be part of him. He is massiah anyhow. Massiah simply means wiped over. If you will say 'anointment". All of that is still les than the one who Eloi told all messengers and prophets that if they were to be alive when he comes with his message that he will send him with, condirming what the prophet, or messenger who may be alive have, the one who is alive should aid him. Eloi, Allah say Muhammad Rasulullah. This is a powerful statement and confirms that Jesus had two roles : talk about Torah and inform people that the messenger whose name is "Ahmad' will come. What is Ahmad? Who was the "another comforter" Jesus spoke about, with all the acutremen of his actual description?

3. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran is still alive today?

Muhammad says that he will respond to people who give him salaam, even as he is in the grave. He said that all prophets and true followers/companions of those prophets the earth has been forbidden to eat their body. So when Abbass died, and was buried for many years, there arose a situation that called for his body to be removed from the grave, and buried somewhere else. during the process, the skin of his feet was pricked. The blood flowed from it as if he was just dead this minute. So your statement is fuzzy, and since Jesus is not on earth now, OnlY Eloi knows his true condition in heaven. After jesus himself did not know the unseen. The future is unseen and you dont know it, too. If you do,you are head and shoulders greater than Jesus. and as a christian, thats not a title you want for yourself, Right?

Quote [4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[b]Even the Koran testifies to the resurrection of Jesus!

There is no verse in the Quran or any material of islam that says Jesus son of Mary died. So how can you say islam talks about his ressurrection? You may want to quote the verse for us to see.

4. Who among the prophets listed in the Koran will return someday to judge the earth?

Jesus will not return to earth to proclaim judgement on earth as to "oh you go to paradise/heaven as the christians want to call it. and you over here are for hell/lake of fire as the christians love to call it" Show me the verse, since there is no muslim on earth will say it. If any prophet were to have that right as an obligation, the Quran would not have mentioned anyone than the prophet that it was revealed upon.



[Quote] He he he. Like I said I prefer to discuss what is in the Bible and not introduce human conjectures. Here is what the Bible says about atmospheric conditions before the Flood. Quote Ge 2: 5-6. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—

And here we are talking about the time of Noah, which was after many generation of people. Adam, and many including his children and grandchildren were already passed as earlier human generations. Is this ot a proof that rainfall must have ocuured manytimes? In Islam the last thing that was created before Adam was "Rainfall".



[Quote]No believer in Jesus says God is 3. But I guess, this is what you tell yourself in order to sleep well at night when your conscience asks you: What if on the day of Judgment, I find that the Christians have been right all along?[/quote]You said God is 3 when Jesu is an Eloi to you (1 your first eloi). And Jesus from his own lips cried out to an Eloi [this One from the station of the cross from the lips of Jesus who Eloi sent; a second Eloi]. There is another Eloi, a spirit that mounted and over shadowed Mary the mother of Jesus which resulted in her getting pregnant with baby Jesus. These are three Eloi.



[Quote]So who is the one permitted to make intercession? Isn't it the one whom scriptures and history show to be the One-Jesus of Nazareth.[/quote]The one who is promised intercession is Muhammad (AS), and the reason this verse was in Surah Maryam an Allah knows the complete truth from Hm, is to sayto the christians "no intercession is permissable except Allah permits it.



[Quote ]from: nopuqeater on Today at 06:49:06 AM
Muhammad has been permitted to make intercession, before any creation can. The first is last, the best is last. Muhammad is the best. Now we have a prayer that we make when ahdan and or iqamah are made. Part of it is about Allah's promise that Muhammad will make intercession on behalf of believers will be fulfilled, guaranteed by the Creator Himself.
^^^This is just the interpolation inserted by Muslims when confronted by even the Koran itself by the evidence of Jesus' unique nature to make Muhammad seem superior to Jesus. Let's consider the words of Muhammad, your own prophet:[/quote]Quran 19 verse 87: Sahih International
None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
They, namely, mankind, will not have the power to intercede, save him who has made a covenant with the Compassionate One, [the covenant being] the profession of lā ilāha illā’Llāh wa-lā hawla wa-lā quwwata illā bi’Llāh, ‘there is no god but God, and there is no power or strength except in God’

[/quote]Quote
'The Prophet said, '''By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me''' (Hadith vol. 5, no. 266).[quote]

And you are a very intelligent man. Do you know how a general manager humbles himself in front of the Chairman, the Owner of the company he works? The good emplyee shows respect, even as the boss praises him. Did Muhammad (as) announced the good news of paradise to many of his followers, including Abu Bakr, even Asma'a the older daughter of Abu Bakr by her just "tearing" into two the waist cloth she had on which she tied the provision that her father and the prophet carried during their journey from Makka to Madina? Yes. In the Quran Allah says of the muslims who fought in the battle of Badr, that they are free to do what they want for they have been guaranteed paradise only for the participation in that war. But Allah knows their hearts, that they will not deviate from the straight path even with that paradise promise to them. In in the last 2 verses of Surah fajr, Allah says of the believers, and of course Muhammad is their Chairman, "enter my Paradise". To simply state that Muhammad (AS) does not know what Allah will do with him, is lacking the understanding the highest quality of submission that the Messenger practiced. In Surah Taha, Allah says to him, pray only part of the night, and not the all night prayer he used to observe. In surah Ahzab, he was so shy that Allah told the community that they should not bother him, for a prophet is busy receiving revelation, and inspiration, and even in all of this heavy responsibility, he will not tell you that you are encrouching on him, because he is shy. By the way, who do you think islamic paradise is created for? People from other religions, except islam? Paradise in Quran is for Muslim and others will go to hell, and you are doubting that Muhammad is not for paradise of islam? If I beleive that I will enter Islamic paradise, do you doubt that Muhammad my leader in Islam will enter it? I dont feel like I need tro list verse saying muslim will enter paradise, because everywhere it is referred in the Quran it is talking about Belivers, in Islam. And Muhammad is the Chairman of this people, afterall the Quran is revealed on him. It is no brained that he will be the first to enter it, as Allah has already Wil

JESUS is alive with God Koran 3,55;4,158,159), while Muhammad is dead and buried in Medina AWAITING JUDGMENT. How can the DEAD make intercession for the LIVING?

And the Christians dont believe that Moses died, at least some say tha Elijah ascended to heaven. Neither is dead. Yet it is Jesus who will make intercession to God Eloi for these noble men? It is true that Muhammad (AS) is dead and buried in Madina. But he says that his soul is returned to accept and return Salaam made for him. And 24 hours around the earth, somebody is making Salaam. Abraham also died, yet he was the father of faith. He was the Personal Friend of Eloi. Jesus was not either. Jesus was not the father of faith and he was not a personal friend ogf Eloi, since he yelled out that there is an Eloi that forsook him. You dont forsake imdividual very dear to you? You dont forsake yourself? Or you do these things.

@Aletheia:

« #4 on: Today at 09:04:46 PM »

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Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 07:33:39 PM
Whats there to reread? I read it and I asked you, will Jesus judge Cain, the son of Adam who killed his brother? I had expected a direct answer and explanation if it was yes. Since I do not read mind, I would not know your answer, and there is no indication that even Noah knew of Jesus. But each of these people knew who Eloi is. Jesus himself knew about Eloi Who sent him and controlled his destiny. Your point is lost in your hasty dynamism. Explain if you will.
^^^
Please sir, don't be too hasty to reply to my posts. An intelligent discourse between both of us requires that we both ponder the words of the other. Did I not give you a direct answer and explanation as you expected?


Quote from: aletheia on Today at 06:09:49 PM
Continuing from Post #39 here wher you wrote:
Please read again carefully the verse you referenced and the part you yourself bolded:Does the verse say anywhere that some unrighteous people will be excluded? As you rightly pointed out:
1. There were unrightoues[sic] people even from the son of Adam and Eve.
2. cain was unrighteous.
Your question: Jesus will Judge Cain? Answer: Yes. The verse clearly says He will judge all the unrighteous. By your admission, Cain was unrighteous

The two bolded are no brainer. There is no way Jesus can judge Cain. Reason: They did not live in the same time within the history of mankind. The law giver during the time of cain was his father prophet Adam, who was given very simple rules because there was no other family but his alone. What was the only rule that all of the Messnegers and prophets have in common? There is no God but Eloi. Do His Will. Obviously, during the time of Adam and his children, adultery was not a law because each husband or wife knowns who the mate was. And incest was not a sin, since the all married from the same pool of the same family members. But to say Jesus will judge Cain, is truly a wrong notion. What will he judge him about; abolishing the laws or the prophets? Its almost a give away that the suggestion that Jesus will judge Cain is so awkward that it defiles sincerity.

^^^True the text says many. The offer of salvation is available to all. Not everyone will accept it but many will receive the promise of Jesus. As it is written:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-Jesus' own words

the bolded is not true. You of all people should know that. Do you address yourself in speech in a third person? Read what you quoted from your Bible, above, again. Its in a third person and aint Jesus that was speaking. Some writer was writing about what he wishes Jesus was.

Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 07:33:39 PM
This very statement of his second coming indicates when read with the first part of Matt 20/28, above that Jesus will now execute justice of his purpose, which is to denounce the lies against him or anyone like the "another comforter" that came after him, and definitely denounces lies against Eloi, Who sent him the first and the second time. If you look at the first part, the past tense "came" was used, to indicate Jesus was not teh speaker, and definitely the second part, a future action which is what am responding to now was not said by Jesus. If Jesus did not say the past, he would not be in the position to say the future as well.

The text is quite clear that Jesus is the one speaking. So the question for you becomes, who is "the Son of Man"? Jesus referred to himself several times as the "Son of Man," a peculiarly Jewish expression that clearly referenced His Messiah-ship (something that even the Koran acknowledges). Again I repeat my question to you: what for you as a Muslim does the title Messiah connote?

A speaker who was talking in the present will not use past tense for the time he was talking. past is not present, and present is not past. This is rality. So if he was talking about now, refering to it as a past, we do know that he is not himself, or somebody is writing about his present, when it was already past. For some of us who knew the event of the independence of Nigeria, for us to have been writing a letter on that day, and writing in a past tense, would have indicated mental deficiency. But whoever was writing about what he thought he heard about Azikwe speech that day could have written it in past tense, because it was an event that was gone before the writer put pen to paper. This idea of the past, indicates that the second part which is the future within that sentence was not the speech of jesus also. Jeus would have referred to himself as in the present tense, not in the past when he was right there, speaking.

@Aletheia: « #5 on: Today at 09:11:14 PM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 08:15:16 PM
Just to let you know, i did not read any of the above, since my point have been proven even by you, by the fact that "everyone" will die, including those who were alive when Jesus arrives. You said above everyone will die. Now proof to me that the people that Jesus sees in this second specifically the Christians, who are the believers by your own agreement will escape death, the first death which you said everyone will have to go through? Maybe you will throw away the statement that not "everyone" will have to go through death, for the first time. Then you will kill your own argument, all by yourself.
^^^nuclearboy warned me that I was taking on a job in engaging you. How can we have a meaningful dialogue when you it's obvious your mind is made up already? How can you show the supposed superiority of your religion when you don't even bother to read posts?! Or are you just someone programmed to regurgitate what was beaten into him during childhood.
If you want me to take you serious, please read the post and respond to the issues I raised there.

The topic of the thred is "Re: Nopuqeater Denounces the "rapture" Theory! And in your post which i answered before the first bolded, above, you stated that the Bible says "Every man will die the first death". Let me allow your post to speak for you and after it, why am I to read an empty argument, unless you can tell me that first death does not kill of the "Rapture Theory"?

"Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 06:49:06 AM
Quote
Now when you sin against God, what can you possibly do to offset his Perfect Justice? The bible makes clear that the wages (rewards or recompense) of sin is death. . .so as a man, what can you do to offset the demands of Perfect Justice because it is impossible to escape Perfect Justice? And that's why. . .it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27), for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).
The bolded kills "Rapture". Or it doesnt ?

I suppose you believe that you have produced a telling argument against the catching up of believers by Jesus when He returns. The problem is that you are arguing from your limited and beclouded perspective. What do you understand by death? Is it based on your human suppositions as to what death is? Or what God tells us death is?

The bible is quite clear that there are two deaths. All men will experience the first death. Those whose names are not found in the book will be subjected to the second death.
Rev 20:6. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14, 15. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So the bible explicitly defines the second death. What about the first death? Again the bible tells us what it is:
James 2:26. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Ecclesiastes 12:7. and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So death then is when the spirit becomes separated from the body. For Christians, death is a transition, much like put off the clothes I wore in the evening in order to put on new clothes in the morning."

What i did not read of your post is what I sated I did not read, that block alone, because it was unnecessary after you admitted that everyone will die. If you listen to the naysayers, you willnever learn anything spiritually beneficial to you. And as of the fact that i may probably be a person who they beat islam into his head and merely regurgitate it, I wish I was that person they beat into his head as a youth some Islam.

Today, the american whites, am sure will have no problem with them are accepting Islam, and they are more orthodoxy than I am. My growing up in the United States is what took me from a muslim on the lips to that whose heart Islam thrives.

Is Rapture not the absence of the first death? At least in the lives of some people? Then you said in the above, right from your Bible that everyone will die, at least once. Now you have a delimma on your hand. The quagmire is deep that I wonder how you will explain yourself, using the Bible to get out of it?

I only want the truth, and an open ended conversation on same issue, without an end is meaningless to me. Maybe i should go and quote the definition of Christian rapture to you. The way Jerry fahwell, Oral Robert said it before they died. The way Robertson of 700 clubs said it. Unfortnately, each will wait in vain until he dies off, and no RAPTURE.

Now Aletheia, I believe you are the one who has been fed a lie and merely repeats it. How can you explain your hard nose position to saying Rapture will happen, even though you said by using your Bible that everyone will die at least once? Below is a website and a bit of its content to whet your appetite, so that you can go read the whole piece. There is a tussel between saying rapture will save some people from experiencing death and the verses of the NT that says all persons must die. You will have to decide which is true and which is false, because both cant be right. Or can they be both right?

www.gospel-mysteries.net/second-coming.html - Cached - Similar
The Second Coming
After Jesus ascended to Heaven, his followers expected him to eventually return to the earth again. This expected return is known as the Second Coming. It is also called the Second Advent, the Parousia, and the Last Coming.

During his ministry Jesus talked about a second coming on a number of occasions. For example, in John 14:3, he says "I will come back", and in Matthew 16:27 he says "For the Son of Man is going to return in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.",

You concluded your post above with these words.

nopuqeater:

www.gospel-mysteries.net/second-coming.html - Cached - Similar
The Second Coming
After Jesus ascended to Heaven, his followers expected him to eventually return to the earth again. This expected return is known as the Second Coming. It is also called the Second Advent, the Parousia, and the Last Coming.

During his ministry Jesus talked about a second coming on a number of occasions. For example, in John 14:3, he says "I will come back", and in Matthew 16:27 he says "For the Son of Man is going to return in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.",

You posted this not I. You pass yourself off as an intelligent man but you do not even read what you post. Thanks for bearing witness that Jesus will return some day and rapture his people. Anyone interested can see the entirety of what you posted here.
I believe you are in the throes of great struggle with the Truth. My prayer for you is that YHWH will raise the veil of Spiritual Darkness that surrounds you so that you may behold the Glorious Light of His Son.
Shalom.

@Aletheia: Did you bother to read the whole piece on the website? If you did, then you would have known that the material supported my claim that "Rapture" as defined by you as some people escaping death all together will not happen. And in my last post i reminded you that you posted directly from your Bible that "EVERYONE" will die the first death. After this statement, what is there to discuss?

If you think you will cheat death, you have already by your Bible confirmed that it will not be possible.

Finally, I will take the time to post the enter entry of what the website material offers about the second coming, the expectations of the people and the subsequent reply of "PAUL" to the committee, whereby your "RAPTURE" hypothesis which you called theory arose. Will Rapture happen by which some people will cheat death and all who are awaking the first time, while others remain in death will float in the air, and will there be a people of the christendom tagged "believers" waking up from death while the rest of us, who are not christian believers remain in death for any period of time, before we are awoke for Judegement, is there a Jesus or OT statement that some believers will wake up from death long time before the rest of us who will not be part of that believer group? Each of these has a NO answer to it. Aletheia, if you can disproof any of this, please put forward your statement without the empty rhetorics and the ambiguityes of those who wished Jesus to be more than what he was.

Jesus said he has (present, alway Living) Eloi. You then turn around and call the very jesus Eloi. How many Eloi[s] are there? What rationale will make it an intelligent opinion, never mind proven conclusion? Is Jesus the Eloi? Then Who is the Eloi that Jesus yelled out to? Which is the Greater Eloi, The Real Eloi? These are your problems, my man. When we discuss with one another, as humans we should apply proper process of thinking with the core focus on our objective. A person of intelligence can be defeated and will admit his defeat. It is not alway the end of knowledge to him/her.

A person of ignorance on the otherhand will bark on wrong premise, stay on it and regardless of overwhelming evidence[s] will stick to his point. Will anybody ever cheat death? No. You admit it with a Biblical verse of everyone dying the first death!

Below is what Aletheia refused to read [Part 1]

The Second Coming

After Jesus ascended to Heaven, his followers expected him to eventually return to the earth again. This expected return is known as the Second Coming. It is also called the Second Advent, the Parousia, and the Last Coming.

During his ministry Jesus talked about a second coming on a number of occasions. For example, in John 14:3, he says "I will come back", and in Matthew 16:27 he says "For the Son of Man is going to return in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

Most Christians believe that Jesus did promise to return. But some people are puzzled by certain statements he made regarding the time of his return. One such statement can be found at Matthew 16:28, in which he says "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Another example is found at[b] Luke 21:32, where he says "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."[/b] He makes similar statements in Luke 9:27 and Mark 9:1.

Some people take these statements to mean that Jesus promised to return while some of his disciples were still alive. But his meaning isn't completely clear, and it's possible to interpret the statements in a way that doesn't put any time limit on when he will come back.

Below is what Aletheia refused to read ]Part 2]

However, his original followers may have misunderstood him, because they believed that he would return very quickly. That's why many of them stayed in Jerusalem instead of going back to their homes in Galilee and returning to their former occupations. They expected the second coming to take place either in Jerusalem or on the nearby Mount of Olives, and they wanted to be in the area when it happened. Because they anticipated only a short wait, they saw no reason to go back to their previous way of life.

The apostle Paul also expected a quick return. Although he apparently never met Jesus, he knew about the promised return, and he expected to live long enough to see it happen. In 1Corinthians 7:29-31 he says that the time is so short that believers must drastically change the way they live. But several of his letters, particularly those he wrote to the Thessalonians, reveal that some people were starting to wonder why Jesus hadn't already returned and were concerned about the delay.

As the delay grew longer, it was natural for people to start worrying that they wouldn't live long enough to see Jesus return. But an intriguing passage at John 21:20-23 suggests that many people held onto their hopes for a surprisingly long time. At one point in this passage Peter asks Jesus about the final fate of the Beloved Disciple. The passage continues as follows:

Below is what Aletheia refused to read [Part 3]

Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
Evidently Jesus had once made a statement about wanting the Beloved Disciple "to remain alive until I return." Such a statement could have caused people to expect this disciple to live until the second coming. Thus, as long as he remained alive, people could still hold out hope that Jesus would soon return.

The passage also mentions a rumor that the Beloved Disciple would never die. This could indicate that he eventually reached a very advanced age. But at some point he finally did die, and this may have been the final blow to the expectations of a quick second coming. Some scholars think that this passage was written shortly after this disciple's death, and that it is an attempt to explain why Jesus still hadn't come back.

Below is what Aletheia refused to read [Part 4]


Because the early hopes for a quick return weren't fulfilled, later Christians gradually shifted their attention away from the second coming. But most modern Christians still believe in it. A number of people have even predicted an exact time and place for it, and in some cases large crowds gathered to watch. Such predictions are often based on "signs" such as natural disasters, wars, the appearance of evil political leaders, an increase in immorality, and sightings of the Wandering Jew.

The study of biblical prophesies has led some people to expect the return to take place during a future period known as the End Time. Other predicted events of this period include a final war between Good and Evil, the resurrection of the dead saints, the Last Judgement, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Opinions differ as to whether Christ will return before, during, or after these other events.



The Rapture

Some people associate the Second Coming with an expected event known as the Rapture. This refers to an envisioned future time when Jesus will suddenly appear in the clouds and pull all true Christians up to him, then take them to heaven. Everyone else will be left on the earth, where they will go through a period of torment called the Tribulation.

Below is what Aletheia refused to read [PArt 5]


During the Rapture all saved people will be pulled up to Jesus at the same moment, and will appear to vanish instantly from the face of the earth. In the same process all dead people who lived righteous Christian lives will be resurrected and also pulled up. Thus Jesus will rescue not only the living righteous, but also those who have died.

Many of the expectations about the Rapture are based on Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, especially a passage at 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Jesus will not come down to the earth's surface, but only to the clouds, and the saved will be pulled up to meet him there. Many Christians believe that they will be "glorified" as they are pulled up. This means that their bodies will be converted into an imperishable perfect form, and that their minds will be freed from any desire to do sinful things or think sinful thoughts. This is seen as a necessary step in preparing them to enter heaven.

Below is what Aletheia refused to read [Part 6]

After the Rapture, the people left behind will have to suffer through the Tribulation, a period of famine, plagues, pestilence and war. According to some predictions, this will last for seven years.

Some Christians expect a different order of events, with the Rapture not taking place until either the mid-point or the end of the Tribulation.

@Aletheia: I sincerely hope that many people will read our discussions, though I see that you put it in an obscured, not main page of the religion section. This dialogue, if Eloi Will, shall benefit you and I and many others. I thank you for the opportunity of the conversation.

My conclusion, based on my read and therefore my opinion: Is there going to be a rapture? No. Why Jesus didnt say that. Thats what counts for me. Although, I am not a christian, if Jesus didnt say it and couldnt be ancored to what Jesus said, when somebody else say it, then it is not even worth considered. Is Jesus the Messenger with the Gospel? Yes. Is he the leader, or founder of Christianity? This is a question for the Christians to answer, and not me, a muslim.

If a person in Christendom says something and Jesus says somethingcompletely different, whose statement should be believed? If its from Jesus and we can find it on his lips, of course Jesus statement. Will Jesus come back? Yes. Does he, Jesus know the time of his return? No. Why not? He is not the decision maker. The Decison Maker is his Lord, ELoi Who sent him the first time, as all Messengers and Prophets were sent. He is the One that is sending him the second time as He, Eloi Wills the time.

Will anybody escape death and will some part of those who died already be woken while others were left unwoken, until later date? No Why do you say no? No prophet or messenger, including Jesus said this. Check any Book of religion, OT, NT and others, including Quran which make things clear that all manking will be woken up for the same Judgement, without anyone having a thousand year second life, and cheating death over anyone.


Wen Jesus comes back, will he be on the side of the christians? No. Why not? He was not a christian in the first place and never advocated for a religion or a church to be established, for him or anyone else. The word church is not known to him. It is not a Children of Israel language word. Temple is, Tebernacle is, maybe synagogue, but definitely not church. Will Jesus judge anyone as the righteous will be asked to go to Paradise and the unrighteous to hell? No/ Why not? Jesus is not the Creeator, Eloi. That is Eloi role and Eloi did not give it to anyone. Further, will Jesus Judge Cain, the Son of Adam whose only known offense ends with the murder of his brother Abel? No. Why not? Jesus will not even judge the people he minister to, how can he judge the people who lived before him, who were not under his ministerial prophetic time?


Was Jesus sent to the whole world as a messneger, a prophet a savior a judge, a God, Loed, Eloi, Jehovah, Yahweh? No. Jesus was a human messenger and nothing more, with a book warning his people the children of Israel, who he was sent to, that they shoud mend their way and retuen to the Torah and the ways of the prophets of old in worshipping the One God, and obeying His laws through those prophets. And he Jesus lived the life of that book the torah and the example of the prophets of old, making their ways evry expansive for his people to see, and heralding the coming of an "another comforter" which he described by the qualitativeness of that "person", including having an audible voice, etc.

Who is Eloi if not Jesus since thats what the christians claim? Listen to Jesus himself, you will hear him yell out to an Eloi. This proofs that Jesus knows there is a real Eloi, and he Jesus is not Him. Would he have yelled to himself for aid, or that he forsook himself since he did not like the experience that he was going through, would he not have extracated himself if he was the Eloi, the All Powerful Who he said sent him?


How did the concept of Rapture and making Jesus into Eloi come about? We see that from among mankind, we are wanting to give in to evil. hence, we all struggle and have resistance to the temptations of evil based on many factors, which one of them is the recognzation of evil deeds and the willingness to stay far away from it. A person who is irresponsible may blame others for their shortcomings or wishes others bear the burden of their blames. When Jesus as a prophet says that he is to relieve people of their difficulties or burden, sin, people forget that if you used to do evil and you abandone it make repentance and follow in obedience the prophet of your time, you are relieved of your sins, becoming anew like a sinless baby.

Let me make my opinion very clear: If Pharaoh had listened to Moses who came to him as a prophet, obeyed Moses and not be arrogant and tyrannical, although the Israelites might have leftd for Canaan, but Pharaoh would have became a believer along with Moses, and the disaster that occurred as the many plagues and eventual drowning woud not happened. But Eoi knew the heart sof the disbeleivers and their stubbornness. t is no wonder therefore a new concept about God as to be three crafted out, making a mere human prophet, Jesus whatever reason God. That very Jesus proclaimed that he has a God Lord Who he said His Proper Name to be Eloi.


Should christian argue with Jesus if it is him they truly follow? This and many others are the problems that a spiritually sincere person needs to work out.

Whats the outsome of all of this? There is ONE WHOLE CAPABLE GOD, Eloi. There were many messengers and prophets from Him. Jesus was one of them. Humans we are. Human messengers and prophets were sent to us. They wer in our nature, the human nature. They were like us, human likeness. Whoever partner or partners with Eloi, it is exactly in the same form as the Buhddists, Hindus, Thunder worshippers, etc.

NL World heavy-weight Title Bout

In the blue corner, dancing, weaving, gisting, spry and airy, full of verve and power, - nopuqeater !

And in the red corner, swarthy and weighty, full of confidence, ready to scatter and destroy, - nopuqeater !



Seconds out of the ring, round 48