true2god:
Male lions sleep all day while the female lions hunt and 'hustle' to provide for their kids, and also provide for the male lions. In the animal kingdom, male lions are useless and only good for mating with the female lions for procreation. As as bad as male lions are, they have to kill on the cubs that the female lions have so that the lioness can start having their own kids afresh. Men (male lions) are very wicked.

Honestly, if male lions were to write their 'Quran', they (male lions) will surely downplay the importance and usefulness of female lions in the animal world, provided they have the Quranic (hadith) format. The male ego is also common in the Jewish Torah and equally consistent among all the so-called 'Abrahamic faith'.

Well said.

I find AbuAeesha statement irritating.

"The males usually looks better than the female"

And I'm suspecting that person is a lady.

usermane:
Asalam alaykum.

Any one else wonder why menstrual period will be spiritually impure? Menstruation is involuntary and last for days to week. Yet even if a woman fasted the whole day and her period suddenly start an hour to iftaar, her fast is nullified.

To me, the idea that something so natural and uncontrollable in the human body would be spiritually impure is flawed design

Finally you have fallen off the edge congratulations.

najib632:
Finally you have fallen off the edge congratulations.

There is no edge. It is all blur. No Muslim believes everything in Islam.

usermane:


There is no edge. It is all blur. No Muslim believes everything in Islam.

Do not assume that everyone is like you. We ask scholars what we do not understand and come to an understanding of a fiqh, Did you pay Allah a dime when he was creating you?
You claim to be a lover of Qur'an and a Muslim and it has not become clear to you that you are a hypocrite.
All the history and stories about pious and scholarly women, were did you live them?
Why did they not complain?

najib632:
Do not assume that everyone is like you. We ask scholars what we do not understand and come to an understanding of a fiqh, Did you pay Allah a dime when he was creating you?
You claim to be a lover of Qur'an and a Muslim and it has not become clear to you that you are a hypocrite.
All the history and stories about pious and scholarly women, were did you live them?
Why did they not complain?

It is not assumption, everyone is like me. I can point out several Qur'anic verses and prophetic Hadith that almost no Muslim believe.

The difference is that while I'm honest enough to express my skeptism on such verses or Hadith, most Muslims prefer to twist and distort facts to undermine any doubt regarding them. Or sometimes, they just quietly disregard such verses or hadith without a word on it.

For example;

Hadith states that the sun sets in a spring of water; https://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34

Qur'an(18:86) apparently states the same.

Do you believe in this?

usermane:


It is not assumption, everyone is like me. I can point out several Qur'anic verses and prophetic Hadith that almost no Muslim believe.

The difference is that while I'm honest enough to express my skeptism on such verses or Hadith, most Muslims prefer to twist and distort facts to undermine any doubt regarding them. Or sometimes, they just quietly disregard such verses or hadith without a word on it.

For example;

Hadith states that the sun sets in a spring of water; https://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34

Qur'an(18:86) apparently states the same.

Do you believe in this?

Mention one verse in the Quran that you claim almost all Muslims doesn't believe. Your understanding abt Islam is seriously weak.

With regaeds to the hadith you quoted see the thorough explanation below and when nxt you read something beyond your imagination, ask question or ask those who can explain better. Luckily we have 24/7 active Islamic sites you can seek thorough understanding.

Just like the way you were lost when you read that hadith while you gave a false reference from the Quran. I am hereby given you this to purify yourself.


Question - 176375
It is narrated by Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (3991) that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: I was with the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), riding a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin hami’ah).” Is this hadeeth saheeh? If it is, then what does it mean? I have heard some non-Muslims using this to stir up doubts about Islam and cast aspersions on it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/176375

Answer
Praise be to Allah.
Firstly:

The hadeeth of Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) which describes the place where the sun goes was narrated via Ibraaheem ibn Yazeed at-Taymi, from his father, from Abu Dharr, from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him.

It was narrated from Ibraaheem at-Taymi by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, al-A‘mash, Fudayl ibn Ghazwaan, Haroon ibn Sa‘d, and Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, as was stated by Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/926)

They narrated it via two isnaads:

The first isnaad:

It was narrated by al-A‘mash, Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. In this report it says that the sun goes and prostrates beneath the Throne or before its Lord; there is no mention of a spring of warm water. It appears in several versions, of which we will mention one here:

It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said to Abu Dharr when the sun set: “Do you know where it goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it. Soon it will prostrate, but it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission (to rise) but permission will not be given to it; it will be said to it: “Go back to where you came from.’ So it will rise from its place of setting, and that is what Allah, may He be glorified, refers to in the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing” [Yaa-Seen 36:38].

It was narrated via A‘mash by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (no. 3199, 4802 and 7424); Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); Abu Dawood at-Tayaalisi in al-Musnad (1/368); Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/282, 429); at-Tirmidhi in as-Sunan (no. 2186, 3227 – he said: It is hasan saheeh; an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/229); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan, 20/516); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zukhaar (9/409); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100-101); at-Tahhaawi in Sharh Mushkil al-Athaar (1/254); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/24); al-Qutay‘i in Juz’ al-Alf Dinar (p. 183); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Musnad al-Mustakhraj ‘ala Saheeh Muslim (1/222); al-Baghawi in at-Tafseer (4/14); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1192); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/924) and at-Tawheed (1/134, 135); Ibn Bashraan in al-Amaali (p. 159); al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma wa as-Sifaat (2/273); Ibn ‘Asaakir in al-Mu‘jam (2/1015); Abu Nu‘aym in Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216) and others.

It was narrated via Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/96); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan (12/249); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100); Abu al-‘Abbaas as-Siraaj in Hadeeth as-Siraaj (3/258); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/21); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1189); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/925, 926) and in at-Tawheed (1/136); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Mustakhraj (1/221).

It was narrated via Moosa ibn al-Musayyab by: Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1188);

And via Haroon ibn Sa‘d by at-Tabaraani in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (4/373); Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1190).

Abu Nu‘aym (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

This is a saheeh hadeeth on which they (the hadeeth scholars) are agreed, from the hadeeth of al-A‘mash from Sufyaan ath-Thawri and others. It was narrated from at-Taymi al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, Fudayl ibn ‘Umayr, Haaroon ibn Sa‘d, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, Habeeb ibn Abi al-Ashras, and from Yoonus ibn ‘Umayd among the Basris.

End quote from Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216)

The second isnaad:

It was narrated by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah only, from Ibraaheem at-Taymi; in this report it says that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) when he was on a donkey and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) sets?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).”

Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/363); Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (no. 4002); Hafs ad-Doori in Juz’ Qiraa’aat an-Nabi sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam (p. 123); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zakhaar (9/407); as-Siraaj in his Hadeeth (3/258); al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (2/267) – he said: This is a hadeeth with a saheeh isnaad, although they (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) did not narrate it. All of them narrated it via Yazeed ibn Haaroon, from Sufyaan ibn Husayn, from al-Hakam.

Al-Bazzaar said: We do not know that anyone narrated it from al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, from Ibraaheem, from his father, from Abu Dharr except Sufyaan ibn Husayn. Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd narrated it from Ibraaheem at-Taymi, Sulayman al-A‘mash and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. End quote.

Secondly:

From the above it is clear that the version of the hadeeth of Abu Dharr which is most likely to be correct is the first one, in which it says: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne”, in which it makes no mention of it setting “in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).” This is based on several factors:

~1~

This wording is that on which the majority of narrators and those with the best memories agreed upon, in the report from Ibraaheem at-Taymi.

~2~

The second version (“in a spring of warm water”) was narrated only by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah from Ibraahem, and al-Hakam – although he was trustworthy – was described by an-Nasaa’i as mudallis [i.e., he used vague wording to give a wrong impression] in Dhikr al-Mudalliseen (no. 11). Ibn Hibbaan said: He used to engage in tadlees. End quote from ath-Thiqaat (4/144). None of those who narrated his hadeeth said that he clearly stated that he heard it from the previous narrator; rather they all said that his report included the word ‘an (from – instead of ‘I heard’, etc). Ibn Hajar mentioned him in Maraatib al-Mudalliseen in the second rank of mudalliseen (p. 30), who are the ones whose tadlees the imams (leading scholars) tolerated and from whom they narrated reports that they regarded as sound, because of their prominence and because they rarely engaged in tadlees compared to others, such as ath-Thawri; or (it was tolerated) because they did not use engage in tadlees except when narrating from a trustworthy source, such as Ibn ‘Uyaynah. The fact that this report is contrary to the report narrated by the trustworthy narrators confirms the possibility that tadlees occurred in this hadeeth in particular.

~3~

The first version was narrated by both al-Bukhaari and Muslim, whereas the second version was not narrated by these two shaykhs. That is because they thought the first version was more likely to be correct than any other. Undoubtedly the reports in the books of al-Bukhaari and Muslim take precedence, according to the critics and scholars, than those in other books and Musnads.

~4~

There is a great difference between the two versions. The first one describes the sun as prostrating beneath the Throne, whether at the time of sunset or at any other time, according to different versions of the hadeeth. Prostration beneath the Throne is a matter of the unseen, and no one knows how it is except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. He, may He be glorified and exalted, has told us that all created things prostrate to Him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified”

[al-Hajj 22:18].

No one knows how this prostration is or when it happens or its real nature except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. Similarly, the hadeeth of Abu Dharr is no different from this verse at all, and there is nothing objectionable in it.

Al-Khattaabi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It cannot be denied that it halts beneath the Throne, in a manner that we cannot see or comprehend; rather this is speaking about a matter of the unseen. So we should not disbelieve in it or ask how it happens, because our knowledge cannot comprehend it.

End quote from A‘laam al-Hadeeth Sharh Saheeh al-Bukhaari (p. 1893)

With regard to the second version, “It sets in a spring of warm water”, this is problematic, because the setting of the sun occurs when its disc disappears below the horizon, and it sets on some people and rises on others because of the movement of the earth around it. So it is not possible that the sun, which is of immense size, could disappear into a spring of warm water. With regard to the words of Allah, may He be exalted, in the story of Dhu’l-Qarnayn (interpretation of the meaning): “Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water” [al-Kahf 18:86], the commentators said that what is meant is to depict the scene that appeared before him, for he saw it on the horizon of the sea, as if it were sinking into it at the time of setting. The Holy Qur’an does not tell us that this was something that happnened in a real sense; hence Allah, may He be glorified, said “he found it setting” and He did not say “it was setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water.”

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

That is, he way he saw the sun was as if it was setting in the ocean, which is something that happens to everyone who stands on the shore: he sees the sun as if it is setting into the sea, when in fact it does not leave the celestial path on which it is firmly established.

End quote from Tafseer al-Qur’an al-Kareem (5/191)

To sum up: whoever casts aspersions on the Sunnah because of this wording is ignorant of the precision of the hadeeth scholars in examining different versions of the hadeeth and distinguishing between the reports which are proven and those which are not proven. The fact that some scholars regarded this report as saheeh is problematic; rather what they intended was to class as saheeh the basis of the hadeeth, not to suggest that this version is more correct than that which is proven in as-Saheehayn: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne.”

In order to refute this specious argument, it is sufficient to note that the scholars of Islam were unanimously agreed that the earth is round and that all the celestial bodies are also round. It is on that basis that night and day alternate, because of the movements and rotation of these heavenly bodies. This is clear from many texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The heavenly bodies are round, according to the Muslim scholars among the Sahaabah and those who followed them in guidance; that was also proven from them with isnaads mentioned in the appropriate places. In fact, more than one of the Muslim scholars narrated that there was consensus among the Muslims on that point.

End quote from Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (5/442)

The Muslims were ahead of others in knowledge of astronomy; if the apparent meaning of this hadeeth contradicts that, then there would not have been consensus on the contrary; but the correct view is that the hadeeth does not contradict the scientific, astronomical facts.

And Allah knows best.

aril:


Mention one verse in the Quran that you claim almost all Muslims doesn't believe. Your understanding abt Islam is seriously weak.

I've mentioned Qur'an 18:86 on Dhul Qarnayn and the sun setting in a spring of water. There are several other verses, like sexual fluid emitted from between the lower back and the ribs, Qur'an 86:6-7. Also Qur'an 17:110 ask Muslims to recite salat audibly; but Muslim women always recite silently & Muslim men may recite silently sometimes but extremely loud at other times.

With regards to the hadith you quoted see the thorough explanation below and when nxt you read something beyond your imagination, ask question or ask those who can explain better. Luckily we have 24/7 active Islamic sites you can seek thorough understanding.

Just like the way you were lost when you read that hadith while you gave a false reference from the Quran. I am hereby given you this to purify yourself.


Question - 176375
It is narrated by Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (3991) that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: I was with the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), riding a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin hami’ah).” Is this hadeeth saheeh? If it is, then what does it mean? I have heard some non-Muslims using this to stir up doubts about Islam and cast aspersions on it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/176375

Answer
Praise be to Allah.
Firstly:

The hadeeth of Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) which describes the place where the sun goes was narrated via Ibraaheem ibn Yazeed at-Taymi, from his father, from Abu Dharr, from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him.

It was narrated from Ibraaheem at-Taymi by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, al-A‘mash, Fudayl ibn Ghazwaan, Haroon ibn Sa‘d, and Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, as was stated by Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/926)

They narrated it via two isnaads:

The first isnaad:

It was narrated by al-A‘mash, Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. In this report it says that the sun goes and prostrates beneath the Throne or before its Lord; there is no mention of a spring of warm water. It appears in several versions, of which we will mention one here:

It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said to Abu Dharr when the sun set: “Do you know where it goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it. Soon it will prostrate, but it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission (to rise) but permission will not be given to it; it will be said to it: “Go back to where you came from.’ So it will rise from its place of setting, and that is what Allah, may He be glorified, refers to in the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing” [Yaa-Seen 36:38].

It was narrated via A‘mash by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (no. 3199, 4802 and 7424); Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); Abu Dawood at-Tayaalisi in al-Musnad (1/368); Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/282, 429); at-Tirmidhi in as-Sunan (no. 2186, 3227 – he said: It is hasan saheeh; an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/229); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan, 20/516); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zukhaar (9/409); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100-101); at-Tahhaawi in Sharh Mushkil al-Athaar (1/254); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/24); al-Qutay‘i in Juz’ al-Alf Dinar (p. 183); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Musnad al-Mustakhraj ‘ala Saheeh Muslim (1/222); al-Baghawi in at-Tafseer (4/14); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1192); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/924) and at-Tawheed (1/134, 135); Ibn Bashraan in al-Amaali (p. 159); al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma wa as-Sifaat (2/273); Ibn ‘Asaakir in al-Mu‘jam (2/1015); Abu Nu‘aym in Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216) and others.

It was narrated via Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/96); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan (12/249); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100); Abu al-‘Abbaas as-Siraaj in Hadeeth as-Siraaj (3/258); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/21); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1189); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/925, 926) and in at-Tawheed (1/136); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Mustakhraj (1/221).

It was narrated via Moosa ibn al-Musayyab by: Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1188);

And via Haroon ibn Sa‘d by at-Tabaraani in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (4/373); Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1190).

Abu Nu‘aym (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

This is a saheeh hadeeth on which they (the hadeeth scholars) are agreed, from the hadeeth of al-A‘mash from Sufyaan ath-Thawri and others. It was narrated from at-Taymi al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, Fudayl ibn ‘Umayr, Haaroon ibn Sa‘d, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, Habeeb ibn Abi al-Ashras, and from Yoonus ibn ‘Umayd among the Basris.

End quote from Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216)

The second isnaad:

It was narrated by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah only, from Ibraaheem at-Taymi; in this report it says that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) when he was on a donkey and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) sets?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).”

Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/363); Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (no. 4002); Hafs ad-Doori in Juz’ Qiraa’aat an-Nabi sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam (p. 123); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zakhaar (9/407); as-Siraaj in his Hadeeth (3/258); al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (2/267) – he said: This is a hadeeth with a saheeh isnaad, although they (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) did not narrate it. All of them narrated it via Yazeed ibn Haaroon, from Sufyaan ibn Husayn, from al-Hakam.

Al-Bazzaar said: We do not know that anyone narrated it from al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, from Ibraaheem, from his father, from Abu Dharr except Sufyaan ibn Husayn. Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd narrated it from Ibraaheem at-Taymi, Sulayman al-A‘mash and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. End quote.


Secondly:

From the above it is clear that the version of the hadeeth of Abu Dharr which is most likely to be correct is the first one, in which it says: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne”, in which it makes no mention of it setting “in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).” This is based on several factors:

~1~

This wording is that on which the majority of narrators and those with the best memories agreed upon, in the report from Ibraaheem at-Taymi.

~2~

The second version (“in a spring of warm water”) was narrated only by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah from Ibraahem, and al-Hakam – although he was trustworthy – was described by an-Nasaa’i as mudallis [i.e., he used vague wording to give a wrong impression] in Dhikr al-Mudalliseen (no. 11). Ibn Hibbaan said: He used to engage in tadlees. End quote from ath-Thiqaat (4/144). None of those who narrated his hadeeth said that he clearly stated that he heard it from the previous narrator; rather they all said that his report included the word ‘an (from – instead of ‘I heard’, etc). Ibn Hajar mentioned him in Maraatib al-Mudalliseen in the second rank of mudalliseen (p. 30), who are the ones whose tadlees the imams (leading scholars) tolerated and from whom they narrated reports that they regarded as sound, because of their prominence and because they rarely engaged in tadlees compared to others, such as ath-Thawri; or (it was tolerated) because they did not use engage in tadlees except when narrating from a trustworthy source, such as Ibn ‘Uyaynah. The fact that this report is contrary to the report narrated by the trustworthy narrators confirms the possibility that tadlees occurred in this hadeeth in particular.

~3~

The first version was narrated by both al-Bukhaari and Muslim, whereas the second version was not narrated by these two shaykhs. That is because they thought the first version was more likely to be correct than any other. Undoubtedly the reports in the books of al-Bukhaari and Muslim take precedence, according to the critics and scholars, than those in other books and Musnads.

~4~

There is a great difference between the two versions. The first one describes the sun as prostrating beneath the Throne, whether at the time of sunset or at any other time, according to different versions of the hadeeth. Prostration beneath the Throne is a matter of the unseen, and no one knows how it is except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. He, may He be glorified and exalted, has told us that all created things prostrate to Him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified”

[al-Hajj 22:18].

No one knows how this prostration is or when it happens or its real nature except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. Similarly, the hadeeth of Abu Dharr is no different from this verse at all, and there is nothing objectionable in it.

Al-Khattaabi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It cannot be denied that it halts beneath the Throne, in a manner that we cannot see or comprehend; rather this is speaking about a matter of the unseen. So we should not disbelieve in it or ask how it happens, because our knowledge cannot comprehend it.

End quote from A‘laam al-Hadeeth Sharh Saheeh al-Bukhaari (p. 1893)

With regard to the second version, “It sets in a spring of warm water”, this is problematic, because the setting of the sun occurs when its disc disappears below the horizon, and it sets on some people and rises on others because of the movement of the earth around it. So it is not possible that the sun, which is of immense size, could disappear into a spring of warm water. With regard to the words of Allah, may He be exalted, in the story of Dhu’l-Qarnayn (interpretation of the meaning): “Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water” [al-Kahf 18:86], the commentators said that what is meant is to depict the scene that appeared before him, for he saw it on the horizon of the sea, as if it were sinking into it at the time of setting. The Holy Qur’an does not tell us that this was something that happnened in a real sense; hence Allah, may He be glorified, said “he found it setting” and He did not say “it was setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water.”

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

That is, he way he saw the sun was as if it was setting in the ocean, which is something that happens to everyone who stands on the shore: he sees the sun as if it is setting into the sea, when in fact it does not leave the celestial path on which it is firmly established.

End quote from Tafseer al-Qur’an al-Kareem (5/191)

To sum up: whoever casts aspersions on the Sunnah because of this wording is ignorant of the precision of the hadeeth scholars in examining different versions of the hadeeth and distinguishing between the reports which are proven and those which are not proven. The fact that some scholars regarded this report as saheeh is problematic; rather what they intended was to class as saheeh the basis of the hadeeth, not to suggest that this version is more correct than that which is proven in as-Saheehayn: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne.”

In order to refute this specious argument, it is sufficient to note that the scholars of Islam were unanimously agreed that the earth is round and that all the celestial bodies are also round. It is on that basis that night and day alternate, because of the movements and rotation of these heavenly bodies. This is clear from many texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The heavenly bodies are round, according to the Muslim scholars among the Sahaabah and those who followed them in guidance; that was also proven from them with isnaads mentioned in the appropriate places. In fact, more than one of the Muslim scholars narrated that there was consensus among the Muslims on that point.

End quote from Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (5/442)

The Muslims were ahead of others in knowledge of astronomy; if the apparent meaning of this hadeeth contradicts that, then there would not have been consensus on the contrary; but the correct view is that the hadeeth does not contradict the scientific, astronomical facts.

And Allah knows best.

OK, here are the problems.

The writer claims scholars doubt the authenticity of the hadith, and see it as likely false. This is really subjective reasoning, obviously there are scholars that accept this hadith. We can only speculate as to why Buhari and Muslim did not include the hadith in their collection.

But Abu Dawud is a reputable imam, to have it in his collection mean he was sure of its authenticity. Also, Al-Albani, a more recent reputable scholar graded it authentic. If you reject this hadith, it can still be argued that you're rejecting an authentic hadith.

You can see the problem? The writer now decides to proffer an alternative and supposedly more authentic version of the hadith - the sun goes to prostrate under Allah's throne.

This is still a problematic hadith. I know the sun's prostration beneath the Throne is part of the Unseen in Islam, but this hadith tells us when this prostration happens. It's time of prostration is revealed to man. Here is the problem.

At sunset in one part of the world, it is sunrise elsewhere and full noon in another part of the world. So when exactly does the sun prostrate beneath the throne and seek permission to rise again?

Let's now move to the verse on the sun setting in a spring. I'm afraid, the writer's argument is bias and one sided. The Qur'an states;

"Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a community...."

The phrase "reach the setting (place) of the sun" creates the first doubt concerning this verse. One does not reach the setting of the sun, or setting place of the sun. This is either poor language or poor understanding of cosmos.

The second phrase, "and he found near it a community.....", also raises questions. You don't find anything near the sun, or setting of the sun or setting place of the sun. Again, this is either poor language or poor understanding of cosmos.

Now, look at the phrase, "he found it setting in a spring". The writer claims that this mean 'it appeared as if the sun was setting into the spring'. If so, why does Qur'an have to tell us this? What is so important about the sun, the spring or dhul qarnayn's perception of the scene in this story?

Putting all these in consideration, it is highly unlikely that this verse implies anything other than the sun literally set in a spring.

I believe if the Qur'an implies it was just a perception by Dhul Qarnayn, it would've clearly implied it in order not to confuse it with ancient myth that the sun literally sets in a place every evening. As you can see, it is from this verse that the hadith on the sun setting in a spring originate.

What the Muslims have done with this verse is distortion and twisting to conceal their obvious disbelief in this verse. This is not good enough. If you're doubtful about a verse or hadith, admit. Don't extrapolate, interpolate or draw metaphorical interpretation that is bias and one sided.

^^^

"Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a community...."

The phrase "reach the setting (place) of the sun" creates the first doubt concerning this verse. One does not reach the setting of the sun, or setting place of the sun. This is either poor language or poor understanding of cosmos.

Perhaps, you lack linguistics comprehension?. Did you watch a video that recently surfaced this Ramadan on Facebook from Norway where the imam was talking about how the sun doesn't set year round?. You should be able to find it on YouTube. (See screenshot)

It was actually around midnight but the sun doesn't set. He said something like the sun behind him is about to touch the mountain. It is called "midnight sun". The imam showed us the Moon on the West side and Sun on the North side simultaneously. And he cited Quranic verse in surah kahf that you quoted with respect to ZulQurnain(as).

My point here is that imam said the Sun touches the mountain. But in reality, the sun doesn't. It is far far from the mountain itself. This is similar to what this Ayah is saying. I urge you to look for the video on YouTube. It is 7 minutes long. I am afraid you are in the edge and falling off. What you said regarding this Ayah is what evangelical CHRISTIANs have tried many times to use against muslims and you are doing the same. You are heading the wrong direction, man. Rejecting a verse is tantamount to kufr base on what you said. But not understanding a verse is not kufr but comprehension problem. At this point I don't know which one of the two you are suffering from. You are on the edge of cliff, buddy.

The second picture was taken in NYC. The sun is literally behind the buildings where it sets. That's the setting of the sun on the Westside of New York City.

aril:


Mention one verse in the Quran that you claim almost all Muslims doesn't believe. Your understanding abt Islam is seriously weak.

With regaeds to the hadith you quoted see the thorough explanation below and when nxt you read something beyond your imagination, ask question or ask those who can explain better. Luckily we have 24/7 active Islamic sites you can seek thorough understanding.

Just like the way you were lost when you read that hadith while you gave a false reference from the Quran. I am hereby given you this to purify yourself.


Question - 176375
It is narrated by Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (3991) that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: I was with the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), riding a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin hami’ah).” Is this hadeeth saheeh? If it is, then what does it mean? I have heard some non-Muslims using this to stir up doubts about Islam and cast aspersions on it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/176375

Answer
Praise be to Allah.
Firstly:

The hadeeth of Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) which describes the place where the sun goes was narrated via Ibraaheem ibn Yazeed at-Taymi, from his father, from Abu Dharr, from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him.

It was narrated from Ibraaheem at-Taymi by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, al-A‘mash, Fudayl ibn Ghazwaan, Haroon ibn Sa‘d, and Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, as was stated by Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/926)

They narrated it via two isnaads:

The first isnaad:

It was narrated by al-A‘mash, Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. In this report it says that the sun goes and prostrates beneath the Throne or before its Lord; there is no mention of a spring of warm water. It appears in several versions, of which we will mention one here:

It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said to Abu Dharr when the sun set: “Do you know where it goes?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it. Soon it will prostrate, but it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission (to rise) but permission will not be given to it; it will be said to it: “Go back to where you came from.’ So it will rise from its place of setting, and that is what Allah, may He be glorified, refers to in the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing” [Yaa-Seen 36:38].

It was narrated via A‘mash by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (no. 3199, 4802 and 7424); Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); Abu Dawood at-Tayaalisi in al-Musnad (1/368); Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/282, 429); at-Tirmidhi in as-Sunan (no. 2186, 3227 – he said: It is hasan saheeh; an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/229); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan, 20/516); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zukhaar (9/409); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100-101); at-Tahhaawi in Sharh Mushkil al-Athaar (1/254); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/24); al-Qutay‘i in Juz’ al-Alf Dinar (p. 183); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Musnad al-Mustakhraj ‘ala Saheeh Muslim (1/222); al-Baghawi in at-Tafseer (4/14); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1192); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/924) and at-Tawheed (1/134, 135); Ibn Bashraan in al-Amaali (p. 159); al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma wa as-Sifaat (2/273); Ibn ‘Asaakir in al-Mu‘jam (2/1015); Abu Nu‘aym in Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216) and others.

It was narrated via Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh (no. 159); an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan al-Kubra (10/96); at-Tabari in Jaami‘ al-Bayaan (12/249); Abu ‘Awaanah in al-Mustakhraj (1/100); Abu al-‘Abbaas as-Siraaj in Hadeeth as-Siraaj (3/258); Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (14/21); Abu ash-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah (4/1189); Ibn Mandah in al-Eemaan (2/925, 926) and in at-Tawheed (1/136); Abu Nu‘aym in al-Mustakhraj (1/221).

It was narrated via Moosa ibn al-Musayyab by: Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1188);

And via Haroon ibn Sa‘d by at-Tabaraani in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (4/373); Abu ash-Shaykh al-Asbahaani in al-‘Azamah (4/1190).

Abu Nu‘aym (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

This is a saheeh hadeeth on which they (the hadeeth scholars) are agreed, from the hadeeth of al-A‘mash from Sufyaan ath-Thawri and others. It was narrated from at-Taymi al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, Fudayl ibn ‘Umayr, Haaroon ibn Sa‘d, Moosa ibn al-Musayyab, Habeeb ibn Abi al-Ashras, and from Yoonus ibn ‘Umayd among the Basris.

End quote from Hilyat al-Awliya’ (4/216)

The second isnaad:

It was narrated by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah only, from Ibraaheem at-Taymi; in this report it says that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) when he was on a donkey and the sun was setting. He said: “Do you know where this (sun) sets?” I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It sets in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).”

Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad (35/363); Abu Dawood in as-Sunan (no. 4002); Hafs ad-Doori in Juz’ Qiraa’aat an-Nabi sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam (p. 123); al-Bazzaar in al-Bahr al-Zakhaar (9/407); as-Siraaj in his Hadeeth (3/258); al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (2/267) – he said: This is a hadeeth with a saheeh isnaad, although they (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) did not narrate it. All of them narrated it via Yazeed ibn Haaroon, from Sufyaan ibn Husayn, from al-Hakam.

Al-Bazzaar said: We do not know that anyone narrated it from al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, from Ibraaheem, from his father, from Abu Dharr except Sufyaan ibn Husayn. Yoonus ibn ‘Ubayd narrated it from Ibraaheem at-Taymi, Sulayman al-A‘mash and Haroon ibn Sa‘d. End quote.

Secondly:

From the above it is clear that the version of the hadeeth of Abu Dharr which is most likely to be correct is the first one, in which it says: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne”, in which it makes no mention of it setting “in a spring of warm water (innaha taghrubu fi ‘aynin haamiyah).” This is based on several factors:

~1~

This wording is that on which the majority of narrators and those with the best memories agreed upon, in the report from Ibraaheem at-Taymi.

~2~

The second version (“in a spring of warm water”) was narrated only by al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah from Ibraahem, and al-Hakam – although he was trustworthy – was described by an-Nasaa’i as mudallis [i.e., he used vague wording to give a wrong impression] in Dhikr al-Mudalliseen (no. 11). Ibn Hibbaan said: He used to engage in tadlees. End quote from ath-Thiqaat (4/144). None of those who narrated his hadeeth said that he clearly stated that he heard it from the previous narrator; rather they all said that his report included the word ‘an (from – instead of ‘I heard’, etc). Ibn Hajar mentioned him in Maraatib al-Mudalliseen in the second rank of mudalliseen (p. 30), who are the ones whose tadlees the imams (leading scholars) tolerated and from whom they narrated reports that they regarded as sound, because of their prominence and because they rarely engaged in tadlees compared to others, such as ath-Thawri; or (it was tolerated) because they did not use engage in tadlees except when narrating from a trustworthy source, such as Ibn ‘Uyaynah. The fact that this report is contrary to the report narrated by the trustworthy narrators confirms the possibility that tadlees occurred in this hadeeth in particular.

~3~

The first version was narrated by both al-Bukhaari and Muslim, whereas the second version was not narrated by these two shaykhs. That is because they thought the first version was more likely to be correct than any other. Undoubtedly the reports in the books of al-Bukhaari and Muslim take precedence, according to the critics and scholars, than those in other books and Musnads.

~4~

There is a great difference between the two versions. The first one describes the sun as prostrating beneath the Throne, whether at the time of sunset or at any other time, according to different versions of the hadeeth. Prostration beneath the Throne is a matter of the unseen, and no one knows how it is except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. He, may He be glorified and exalted, has told us that all created things prostrate to Him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified”

[al-Hajj 22:18].

No one knows how this prostration is or when it happens or its real nature except Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. Similarly, the hadeeth of Abu Dharr is no different from this verse at all, and there is nothing objectionable in it.

Al-Khattaabi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It cannot be denied that it halts beneath the Throne, in a manner that we cannot see or comprehend; rather this is speaking about a matter of the unseen. So we should not disbelieve in it or ask how it happens, because our knowledge cannot comprehend it.

End quote from A‘laam al-Hadeeth Sharh Saheeh al-Bukhaari (p. 1893)

With regard to the second version, “It sets in a spring of warm water”, this is problematic, because the setting of the sun occurs when its disc disappears below the horizon, and it sets on some people and rises on others because of the movement of the earth around it. So it is not possible that the sun, which is of immense size, could disappear into a spring of warm water. With regard to the words of Allah, may He be exalted, in the story of Dhu’l-Qarnayn (interpretation of the meaning): “Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water” [al-Kahf 18:86], the commentators said that what is meant is to depict the scene that appeared before him, for he saw it on the horizon of the sea, as if it were sinking into it at the time of setting. The Holy Qur’an does not tell us that this was something that happnened in a real sense; hence Allah, may He be glorified, said “he found it setting” and He did not say “it was setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water.”

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

That is, he way he saw the sun was as if it was setting in the ocean, which is something that happens to everyone who stands on the shore: he sees the sun as if it is setting into the sea, when in fact it does not leave the celestial path on which it is firmly established.

End quote from Tafseer al-Qur’an al-Kareem (5/191)

To sum up: whoever casts aspersions on the Sunnah because of this wording is ignorant of the precision of the hadeeth scholars in examining different versions of the hadeeth and distinguishing between the reports which are proven and those which are not proven. The fact that some scholars regarded this report as saheeh is problematic; rather what they intended was to class as saheeh the basis of the hadeeth, not to suggest that this version is more correct than that which is proven in as-Saheehayn: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne.”

In order to refute this specious argument, it is sufficient to note that the scholars of Islam were unanimously agreed that the earth is round and that all the celestial bodies are also round. It is on that basis that night and day alternate, because of the movements and rotation of these heavenly bodies. This is clear from many texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The heavenly bodies are round, according to the Muslim scholars among the Sahaabah and those who followed them in guidance; that was also proven from them with isnaads mentioned in the appropriate places. In fact, more than one of the Muslim scholars narrated that there was consensus among the Muslims on that point.

End quote from Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (5/442)

The Muslims were ahead of others in knowledge of astronomy; if the apparent meaning of this hadeeth contradicts that, then there would not have been consensus on the contrary; but the correct view is that the hadeeth does not contradict the scientific, astronomical facts.

And Allah knows best.

just one question and you filled the thread with long epistles

usermane:


It is not assumption, everyone is like me. I can point out several Qur'anic verses and prophetic Hadith that almost no Muslim believe.

The difference is that while I'm honest enough to express my skeptism on such verses or Hadith, most Muslims prefer to twist and distort facts to undermine any doubt regarding them. Or sometimes, they just quietly disregard such verses or hadith without a word on it.

For example;

Hadith states that the sun sets in a spring of water; https://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34

Qur'an(18:86) apparently states the same.

Do you believe in this?

Yes I believe it and anyone who disbelieves in even a single verse of Allah is a kaafir I would advice you to stop lying to yourself that you're still a Muslim, because you clearly don't know the meaning of the word Islam. You can't recognise a simple metaphor you're claiming intelligent Qur'anist, you sit with comfort in your home and spew thrash out of your mouth and call men who spend 30 years studying over glorified. Look at how lazy you are, did you even check the tafsir? or ask someone with knowledge? I bet you don't even know a single book of tafsir. Clown.

najib632:

Yes I believe it and anyone who disbelieves in even a single verse of Allah is a kaafir I would advice you to stop lying to yourself that you're still a Muslim, because you clearly don't know the meaning of the word Islam.

Look, Islam to me is like medical profession is to a physician. Yes, I've practiced it all my life. But that doesn't mean if I find a fault in its texts or tradition I should simply reinterpret it to make sense.

You can't recognise a simple metaphor you're claiming intelligent Qur'anist, you with comfort in your home and spew thrash out of your mouth and call me who spend 30 years studying over glorified. Look at how lazy you are, did you even check the tafsir? or ask someone with knowledge? I bet you don't even know a single book of tafsir. Clown.

I consider this an insult to my research work. I have access to no less than 5 tafsir on this verse; https://quranx.com/tafsirs/18.86. If you want us to go by tafsir, I can show you numerous apparently erroneous verses where the tafsir do not help.

For instance the Qur'an describe a stage of human fetal development as 'alaqa', all the tafsir agree that 'alaqa' mean blood clot; https://quranx.com/tafsirs/23.14. But the human fetus is never a blood clot.

With regards to a non-literal interpretation of "..he found it setting in a spring of muddy water", how do we know this is not to be taken literal as the scholars of tafsir recommend? Do we just assume that a phrase in Qur'an should be read non-literally because the a literal reading makes no sense to us?

NOTE; Until the 15th century, earth rotation was not fully understood. People thought the earth was immobile while the sun revolved the earth. People understood sunset as the sun disappearing out of the physical realm.

Around the 7th century, there were circulating tales in the middle east that Dhul Qarnayn or Alexander the great, traveled to the end of the earth to see the sun literally disappear into a muddy spring. Please Google "Alexander Romance".

To a typical bedouin, the phrase "....he found it setting in a spring of muddy water" could mean "he found it disappear in a spring of muddy water". The moment we find a Qur'anic verse that resemble ancient myth of unenlightened folks, we need to reconsider.

usermane:


Look, Islam to me is like medical profession is to a physician. Yes, I've practiced it all my life. But that doesn't mean if I find a fault in its texts or tradition I should simply reinterpret it to make sense.



I consider this an insult to my research work. I have access to no less than 5 tafsir on this verse; https://quranx.com/tafsirs/18.86. If you want us to go by tafsir, I can show you numerous apparently erroneous verses where the tafsir do not help.

For instance the Qur'an describe a stage of human fetal development as 'alaqa', all the tafsir agree that 'alaqa' mean blood clot; https://quranx.com/tafsirs/23.14. But the human fetus is never a blood clot.

With regards to a non-literal interpretation of "..he found it setting in a spring of muddy water", how do we know this is not to be taken literal as the scholars of tafsir recommend? Do we just assume that a phrase in Qur'an should be read non-literally because the a literal reading makes no sense to us?

NOTE; Until the 15th century, earth rotation was not fully understood. People thought the earth was immobile while the sun revolved the earth. People understood sunset as the sun disappearing out of the physical realm.

Around the 7th century, there were circulating tales in the middle east that Dhul Qarnayn or Alexander the great, traveled to the end of the earth to see the sun literally disappear into a muddy spring. Please Google "Alexander Romance".

To a typical bedouin, the phrase "....he found it setting in a spring of muddy water" could mean "he found it disappear in a spring of muddy water". The moment we find a Qur'anic verse that resemble ancient myth of unenlightened folks, we need to reconsider.

I swear by Allah you're a high grade Jaheel, anyone who takes you seriously is wasting his precious time, you that doesn't even understand simple arabic dares to challenge the Qur'an? What do you even know about biology? Your hypocrisy and ignorance is so disgusting.

najib632:
I swear by Allah you're a high grade Jaheel, anyone who takes you seriously is wasting his precious time, you that doesn't even understand simple arabic dares to challenge the Qur'an? What do you even know about biology? Your hypocrisy and ignorance is so disgusting.

he is no longer a muslim. There are evidences against him from his recent posts, You should see his post as non muslim from now on.


Just converse with him like average non-muslims. Thats all.

Empiree:
he is no longer a muslim. There are evidences against him from his recent posts, You should see his post as non muslim from now on.


Just converse with him like average non-muslims. Thats all.

I considered him a kafir since the time I told you so... I think thats about 1 month+. Let him enjoy his ignorance, only time will tell.