I dragged this out of the cacophony hoping we'd have quiet here if you do not mind.

Jozzy4:
Can someone tell me how what Jesus did is significant if we humans are immortal Souls.

Can you show what you mean by what Jesus did first before we consider its "significance", and whether "humans are immortal Souls"?

What did Jesus do Jozzy?

Absolutely nothing

Preacher: Jesus came so that we can be saved and opened the doors of heaven.

Me: What about moses, Samuel and millions of humans through history who died before Jesus came?

Preacher: God overlooked and allowed them into heaven

Me: So, Jesus didn't really save anyone or opened the doors of heaven, it was already opened as you have stated above. Jesus in his bid to help seems to just ended up making it harder?

Preacher:

jesus is just a roman idol...because i dont see how he is relevant to anything..just to deceive and make people disobey the laws and commandments of God..

sonmvayina:
jesus is just a roman idol...because i dont see how he is relevant to anything..just to deceive and make people disobey the laws and commandments of God..

So, Jesus, as far as you understand is a Roman idol that "deceived and made people disobey the laws and commandments of God"?

johnydon22:
Preacher: Jesus came so that we can be saved and opened the doors of heaven.

Me: What about moses, Samuel and millions of humans through history who died before Jesus came?

Preacher: God overlooked and allowed them into heaven

Me: So, Jesus didn't really save anyone or opened the doors of heaven, it was already opened as you have stated above. Jesus in his bid to help seems to just ended up making it harder?

Preacher:

Is this what you think Jesus did, or what the Preacher told you Jesus did?

budaatum:

So, Jesus, as far as you understand is a Roman idol that "deceived and made people disobey the laws and commandments of God"?

yes he is..he is just a roman created character..just everything about christianity is against the laws and commandment of god as contained in the Torah.

the first commandment says ' i am the lord your God who brought you out of the land of egypt and out of the house of bondage, you shall have no other god before me'..which means God wants to have a relation ship with us no intermediary or mediator is required.

the second commandment says :' you shall not make the image or like ness of anything in heaven, or on earth or under the waters below the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them'..
so bowing down or worshipping a god created in the image and likeness of a man, which is something found on earth is forbidden by God also.

God is not a man or a human being so says Numbers 23:19

and deutronomy 6;4 ' your lord in but one lord...not 3 in 1

jesus was created by the delegates at nicea under the authority of emperior constantine who wanted a single religion for his empire..

budaatum:

So, Jesus, as far as you understand is a Roman idol that "deceived and made people disobey the laws and commandments of God"?

more over, there was already forgiveness of sins....and it rarely involves blood sacrifice..the God the Jews worshiped detested human sacrifice..it is an abomination ...so why would he sacrifice his son if he had one? all that was necessary was a sincere repentance and your sins will be remembered no more.
the new covenant the prophet wrote about was a covenant of everlasting peace..no more wars and oppression..not death for sins.

the jews will NEVER accept jesus as messiah, as he did not meet the requirement set out by God through his prophets...

sonmvayina:

jesus was created by the delegates at nicea under the authority of emperior constantine who wanted a single religion for his empire..

Why did Constantine want a single religion over such a vast empire?

budaatum:

Is this what you think Jesus did, or what the Preacher told you Jesus did?

My own idea personally is that Jesus based on the gospels was a form of social reformer, aggresively wise that eventually was deified by his followers.

johnydon22:
My own idea personally is that Jesus based on the gospels was a form of social reformer, aggresively wise that eventually was deified by his followers.

So what exactly did he do that made him have followers who deified him?

johnydon22:
Preacher: Jesus came so that we can be saved and opened the doors of heaven.

Me: What about moses, Samuel and millions of humans through history who died before Jesus came?

Preacher: God overlooked and allowed them into heaven

Me: So, Jesus didn't really save anyone or opened the doors of heaven, it was already opened as you have stated above. Jesus in his bid to help seems to just ended up making it harder?

Preacher:

What if a preacher told you they were not in heaven but in Abraham's bosom(like a temporal waiting place), and that no one entered into heaven not even Abraham before Jesus opened up the door of heaven for them via His death?

What would be your response?

Luke 16:22 (KJV)

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

budaatum:

Why did Constantine want a single religion over such a vast empire?

To end religious wars....

sonmvayina:


To end religious wars....

Reducing unnecessary death? What an intelligent benevolent individual Constantine must have been!

budaatum:

Reducing unnecessary death? What an intelligent benevolent individual Constantine must have been!

Yes,I agree with you..but why add the Christian scriptures at the end of the Jewish holy book? Clearly any intelligent person can see that Christianity and Judaism are two different religions..and the two scriptures are hostile to one another....I still believe his intention is to deceive and control..

sonmvayina:


Yes,I agree with you..but why add the Christian scriptures at the end of the Jewish holy book? Clearly any intelligent person can see that Christianity and Judaism are two different religions..and the two scriptures are hostile to one another....I still believe his intention is to deceive and control..

I must be one of the unintelligent people to see that "Christianity and Judaism .....two scriptures are hostile to one another". I never seen them fighting.

Do you know anything about the societies in Constantine's times, by the way? I think his intention was to educate and discipline. His times were rather barbaric.

budaatum:

I must be one of the unintelligent people to see that "Christianity and Judaism .....two scriptures are hostile to one another". I never seen them fighting.

Do you know anything about the societies in Constantine's times, by the way? I think his intention was to educate and discipline. His times were rather barbaric.

Ovbiously, it seems so...Judaism and Christianity are two different religions..Christianity is just a roman rebranding of Babylonian paganism which has human sacrifice at it's centre..something the Hebrew God calls an abomination...the Hebrew God promised to send a Messiah to the Jews,but he was going to be a normal man like a you and me,from the line of David and from Judah..not a Demi God,.he was not coming to die for sin as there already was a solution to the problem of sin in Judaism..he was coming to rule in a peaceful world..no more wars and oppression...the new convernant was a convernant of everlasting peace..

sonmvayina:


Ovbiously, it seems so...Judaism and Christianity are two different religions..Christianity is just a roman rebranding of Babylonian paganism which has human sacrifice at it's centre..something the Hebrew God calls an abomination...the Hebrew God promised to send a Messiah to the Jews,but he was going to be a normal man like a you and me,from the line of David and from Judah..not a Demi God,.he was not coming to die for sin as there already was a solution to the problem of sin in Judaism..he was coming to rule in a peaceful world..no more wars and oppression...the new convernant was a convernant of everlasting peace..

On reading the above one would think you believe "human sacrifice" is what Christianity is about, when the truth I bet is you can't name one single human being sacrificed to God by Christians.

But let me not pressume. Please state how "human sacrifice" is at the centre of Christianity.

budaatum:

On reading the above one would think you believe "human sacrifice" is what Christianity is about, when the truth I bet is you can't name one single human being sacrificed to God by Christians.

But let me not pressume. Please state how "human sacrifice" is at the centre of Christianity.

You are just very funny... What happened on "good Friday" according to Christians?..what did Jesus come to do...?.what is the relevance of Jesus to anything?..God has already given us a commandment to follow and obey,if we break any ..all he demands is that we sincerely repents and forsake it and he will forgive.."If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and confess their sins,I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land...".....no mention of a man dying before that can be affected.....so you see,Jesus was not necessary.. And never was...

sonmvayina:


You are just very funny... What happened on "good Friday" according to Christians?..what did Jesus come to do...?.what is the relevance of Jesus to anything?..God has already given us a commandment to follow and obey,if we break any ..all he demands is that we sincerely repents and forsake it and he will forgive.."If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and confess their sins,I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land...".....no mention of a man dying before that can be affected.....so you see,Jesus was not necessary.. And never was...

So, you see no addition whatsoever by Christ to what you added to the above, not even the unshackling of God from the monopoly of the Jews?

budaatum:

So, you see no addition whatsoever by Christ to what you added to the above, not even the unshackling of God from the monopoly of the Jews?

then it is useless and a distraction...obey Gods law, as it was done from the time of moses..or why place another god before the creator..you see my points so far..you have to disobey Gods law in other to make jesus relevant to anything...

our ancestors were teaching these laws before the white man came to set us on a dangerous path with their rebellion against the creator of all and we were progressing at our own pace...

sonmvayina:


then it is useless and a distraction...obey Gods law, as it was done from the time of moses..or why place another god before the creator..you see my points so far..you have to disobey Gods law in other to make jesus relevant to anything...

our ancestors were teaching these laws before the white man came to set us on a dangerous path with their rebellion against the creator of all and we were progressing at our own pace...

Where did you get "obeyed God's law from the time of Moses" from? Are there not numerous chapters in the Old Testament that say otherwise? And yes, you were progressing at your own pace so let me come take away all your recent foreign gadgets so you could continue developing at your own pace, shall I?

Forgive me vayina, but you do not appear to know much about Christ, nor about your ancestors, for that matter. To start with Christ existed way before Constantine, whom you claim created him, and there's a lot more to Christ than "dying for your sins" than you seem to know about. And your ancestors were not living a rosy life of "teaching laws" as you seem to think. Just as in the Old Testament, our ancestors too were breaking laws. In fact, you only have laws because people break them.

Yahweh was a God of fear, and very tribal. You did what you were told or you go to hell, but Adam and Eve didn't mind going to hell (it wasn't hell then but death, and then we find their death wasn't even as dead as first taught!), but my point is, fear, as a form of control, had stopped working, though the religious leaders by the time of Jesus, exploited with it. Jesus replaced that fear with Love, but you think he was created by the Romans, as "useless distraction" and a "sacrifice for sins".

It is written, "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor." You appear to be none of those people listed.

budaatum:

Where did you get "obeyed God's law from the time of Moses" from? Are there not numerous chapters in the Old Testament that say otherwise? And yes, you were progressing at your own pace so let me come take away all your recent foreign gadgets so you could continue developing at your own pace, shall I?

Forgive me vayina, but you do not appear to know much about Christ, nor about your ancestors, for that matter. To start with Christ existed way before Constantine, whom you claim created him, and there's a lot more to Christ than "dying for your sins" than you seem to know about. And your ancestors were not living a rosy life of "teaching laws" as you seem to think. Just as in the Old Testament, our ancestors too were breaking laws. In fact, you only have laws because people break them.

Yahweh was a God of fear, and very tribal. You did what you were told or you go to hell, but Adam and Eve didn't mind going to hell (it wasn't hell then but death, and then we find their death wasn't even as dead as first taught!), but my point is, fear, as a form of control, had stopped working, though the religious leaders by the time of Jesus, exploited with it. Jesus replaced that fear with Love, but you think he was created by the Romans, as "useless distraction" and a "sacrifice for sins".

It is written, "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor." You appear to be none of those people listed.

I've told you many times without number buda, you can only silence falsehood if you humble yourself to LEARN from the true Christians {Jehovah's Witnesses} we will teach you how to defend God's word and silence religious buffoons like vayina!

Just tell her that the law Moses brought served as the certificate of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel ALONE! Exodus 19:5

God has established another covenant{Jeremiah 31:31-34} under which i {Nigerian} can now serve the same God without having to travel all the way to the Temple in Jerusalem! John 4:22-24

If she's still arguing, please ask her 'why did God promised a new covenant if everyone is to stick to the old law covenant?'
Good evening Ma!

budaatum:

Is this what you think Jesus did, or what the Preacher told you Jesus did?

Very good question.

sonmvayina:


To end religious wars....

So, an emperor created the Jesus character to end religious wars?
Which religious wars could you be referring to?
And, how could Jesus, a man who never held a sword, be used to end wars?

Which wars?

TATIME:
I've told you many times without number buda, you can only silence falsehood if you humble yourself to LEARN from the true Christians {Jehovah's Witnesses} we will teach you how to defend God's word and silence religious buffoons like vayina!

Just tell her that the law Moses brought served as the certificate of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel ALONE! Exodus 19:5

God has established another covenant{Jeremiah 31:31-34} under which i {Nigerian} can now serve the same God without having to travel all the way to the Temple in Jerusalem! John 4:22-24

If she's still arguing, please ask her 'why did God promised a new covenant if everyone is to stick to the old law covenant?'
Good evening Ma!

I'm not silencing falsehood nor am I defending God's Word Tat. God's Word does not need defending since it stands firm as it is, so I don't need to join a group of God defenders. And falsehood (though I think ignorance is the proper word in this case), has it's reward, or price, should I say, which those who peddle it pay. For it is clearly written that the wages of the sin of bearing false witness is death. Judgement itself however is the Lord's, and the only difficulty I may have is showing how sinners, in this case, the ignorant, die.

I must help eradicate falsehood where I can and forgive those who trespass for they know not what they say or do. I must mind my own sinning by not lacking compassion, which is not love, and committing the rather huge sin of hubris in assuming I am one of the chosen few. For if I do not mind my own sinning, it is I who shall be told that I am not known and will burn in the hottest part of hell myself despite all my Lord Lordism, while the Lord, despite whatever I might think, may allow sonmvayina to dance with joy into heaven.

P.s. buda does not do humble. I can learn without it and a teacher who requires it is suspect since their teaching should stand whether one is humble or not.

budaatum:

I'm not silencing falsehood nor am I defending God's Word Tat. God's Word does not need defending since it stands firm as it is, so I don't need to join a group of God defenders. And falsehood (though I think ignorance is the proper word in this case), has it's reward, or price, should I say, which those who peddle it pay. For it is clearly written that the wages of the sin of bearing false witness is death. Judgement itself however is the Lord's, and the only difficulty I may have is showing how sinners, in this case, the ignorant, die.

I must help eradicate falsehood where I can and forgive those who trespass for they know not what they say or do. I must mind my own sinning by not lacking compassion, which is not love, and committing the rather huge sin of hubris in assuming I am one of the chosen few. For if I do not mind my own sinning, it is I who shall be told that I am not known and will burn in the hottest part of hell myself despite all my Lord Lordism, while the Lord, despite whatever I might think, may allow sonmvayina to dance with joy into heaven.

P.s. buda does not do humble. I can learn without it and a teacher who requires it is suspect since their teaching should stand whether one is humble or not.

i am done teaching both of you...when the time comes isaiah 53 will become clearer to you...

but first answer this question on your own..

Amos 3:7 says ' Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.'

so which prophet did god reveal the jesus story to?...which prophet did god reveal Christianity to?

sonmvayina:


i am done teaching both of you...when the time comes isaiah 53 will become clearer to you...

but first answer this question on your own..

Amos 3:7 says ' Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.'

so which prophet did god reveal the jesus story to?...which prophet did god reveal Christianity to?

I'm certain others will respond to the questions you posed above sonm. You might want to consider a thread for it. This thread is called

"What did Jesus do?"

Imaginary Jesus or not, for I have constantly said that no Alice fell through a Looking Glass, but words still mean whatever humpty dumpty says words mean to him. Even a made story book about an imaginary Christ must have had some impact.

sonmvayina:


i am done teaching both of you...when the time comes isaiah 53 will become clearer to you...

but first answer this question on your own..

Amos 3:7 says ' Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.'

so which prophet did god reveal the jesus story to?...which prophet did god reveal Christianity to?

You might as well ask me who wrote Genesis, and tell me not to read it if I don't know! Are you preaching to me? Appointing yourself to tell me how to use my brain?

sonmvayina:


Yes,I agree with you..but why add the Christian scriptures at the end of the Jewish holy book? Clearly any intelligent person can see that Christianity and Judaism are two different religions..and the two scriptures are hostile to one another....I still believe his intention is to deceive and control..

There have alway been additions to the Jewish holy book, so I don't see why it should become a problem if Christians add to it, especially as it follows in the same tradition and is what it evolved from.

budaatum:

There have alway been additions to the Jewish holy book, so I don't see why it should become a problem if Christians add to it, especially as it follows in the same tradition and is what it evolved from.

Not at all, that's were you are making the mistake. Judaism believes in one universal God and creator of all.. It is clearly stated that God is not a man or human being and is responsible for both good and evil... There is none beside him... But in the Christian scriptures, God is now a man and you have two separate gods, one for good an one for evil and the evil one is an equal opposite of the good one... And forgiveness of sins is through believing in the death of Jesus.. While in Judaism one has to confess and forsake and God will forgive...

Clearly two distinct, different beliefs...

budaatum:

You might as well ask me who wrote Genesis, and tell me not to read it if I don't know! Are you preaching to me? Appointing yourself to tell me how to use my brain?

Isn't it obvious you are not seeing the contradictions... I guess you just don't want to think for a moment that the new testament might be a forgery because you have invested your whole life on it... It is hard to accept that somebody is telling you the stories are all fictions..

Well, the Jesus story was created after nicea... That is a fact.