Many religious people claim that there are miracles, scientific or prophetic, in the scriptures and those miracles prove that their scriptures are true. They say that, despite their understanding that the same books have serious logical and scientific errors. Actually, there is no miracle in any of the religious scriptures. No sign of anything but stupidity and barbarity. Yet, let’s assume here today that there are miracles in the “holy” scriptures and try to understand if they are enough to become a believer.

The first question comes to our mind is what a miracle is. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a miracle is “something extraordinary or surprising.” That means we are assuming that there is something extraordinary or surprising in the scriptures; say, one of the Bible’s prophecies has come true in today’s time or the Quran precisely mentioned that the earth spins around the sun. Now, according to the theists we have to put our complete trust in the scriptures and follow whatever the scriptures say no matter how incongruous that sounds because we have found miracles in the scriptures! But no! Just because there are miracles or matters that are extraordinary to us, for now maybe, in the scriptures, that does not mean that those are from an omnipotent and omniscient god. There are three very good explanations for this:

1.Those miracles could just be the works of humans

We are very much aware of the fact that 2000 or 3000 years ago people were not uneducated and crude like the cavemen. People have been wondering about the universe and nature for thousands of years. For example, around the 3rd century BCE, Euclid wrote the epic book on geometry The Elements, Aristarchus of Samos created the first heliocentric model, Hippocrates discovered that there are scientific reasons for ailment, Democritus realized that the Milky Way galaxy has got millions of stars, Aristotle realized that the earth must be a globe; around the 2nd century BCE, Seleucus of Seleuci realized that the tide is caused by the moon; around the 1st century, Zhang Heng pointed out that the moon does not emit its own light but the reflected light of the sun, Indian physicist and astronomer Aryabhatta pointed out that the earth spins around the sun, calculated the exact distance between the earth and the moon and the value of pi. So, why would we think that the miracles in the scriptures have to be from a god? They could easily be from the writers of the scriptures who probably were smarter than the others they were surrounded by. They probably tried their best by researching and seeking knowledge to put something smart on the scriptures to make them look divine, or they probably hired other scientists to do that and later silenced them and destroyed their other works. There is a very good possibility of that because smart people used to exist in that period.

2. Those miracles could just be the works of the intelligent extraterrestrials

There are about 1024 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets in the observable universe! Therefore, the chance of another planet with a far more advanced civilization than ours is extremely high. So it would be safer to believe that the miracles in the scriptures could be the works of extraterrestrials than of a god. Although we have never been in contact with intelligent extraterrestrials, we could still guess the extraordinary phenomena on our planet are their works because their existence in the universe is almost certain according to the theory of probability. But, why would the aliens want to create religions and put some miracles in the scriptures? Because may be they want to halt our progression so that we never discover them and compete with them and they found that religions play a very good role in stopping humans from being smart. So possibly by putting miracles in the religions they have just fooled our gullible minds. Or maybe we all are just a part of their simulation projects. I am not kidding here. I am just talking about a possibility that makes more sense than the possibility of a god.

3. It is safer to believe in those previous theories than believing in the god theory

So, why would I believe in a god just because there are few surprising matters in the scriptures while there are two other better explanations for them? In fact, the first one is far more likely than the latter one. However, believing that those miracles are from a god and a true religion is harmful because, as mentioned above, religions enslave our brain and halt our progression. It persecutes thinking and rational people. Something inherently harmful should not be the part of any speculation about any natural and philosophical phenomena. Also, if god was omniscient and omnipotent, so capable of performing any miracle, then we would not have suffering and violence among us. Therefore, he is not omniscient and omnipotent and we cannot expect any miracle from that god. Moreover, we have no evidence of the existence of a god but we have the evidence of the ancient humans’ endeavor and the existence of trillions of planets.

By Jeff Moore
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/jeff-moore/miracles-scriptures-don-t-verify-scriptures



Cc:Hahn, hopefullanlord, budaatum, vic2ree, malvisguy212, CAPSLOCKED, lordreed, muttleylaff,martinez39,1sharon, jesusjnr,MJbolt, Dantedasz

Michellekabod2:


Moreover, we have no evidence of the existence of a god but we have the evidence of the ancient humans’ endeavor and the existence of trillions of planets.

So, you know so much, right? Yet, you start your list of knowledgeable people with Euclid and not his teachers 3000 years older? That's why we teach you God, Michelle. If we didn't, you'd now a whole lot less.

Something Old, Something New - Introducing Africana Philosophy

There are 33 episodes. You must not cc me till after episode 5. You may mention anytime.

I think someone has forgotten to take his medications!
...'only a fool will say in his heart that there's no God'
Argue with yourself!

Gibberish.

I wonder what is wrong with some people honestly they try to sound knowledgeable but they end up sounding stupid sorry but even the extraterrestrial powers the op keep mentioning recognized the existence of a higher power than theirs. Whether you like it or not op God is still God and nothing any power can do about it

judgementyard:
I think someone has forgotten to take his medications!
...'only a fool will say in his heart that there's no God'
Argue with yourself!

only a bigger fool will accept something without evidence.

hakeem4:

only a bigger fool will accept something without evidence.

Have examined the evidence?

You could believe that miracles could have been done by extraterrestrials but not God. That's hypocritical.

The bible given contains prophecies and messages given by to through people who never knew each other across generations and the message is consistent.

The bible predicted Israel will go into captivity in Egypt 400 years ahead
The bible predicted their depart from Egypt
The bible predicted the promised land
The bible predicted babylonia destruction of israrl
The bible predicted the captivity of jew in Babylon
The bible predicted their return
The bible predicted rebuilding of the temple.
The bible predicted the bith of the jesus of Nazareth thousands of years ahead. I
It gave the specific time he will be born
It gave specific time he will die

What about the modern day historical prophecy.
The bible predicted Israel will cease to be a nation
The bible predicted their names will be wiped from the map of the word
The bible predicted they will be scattered
The bible predicted that the land of Israel will be divided to other countries "THEY PARTED MY LAND"
The bible predicted that Israel will become a nation again!

All these came to pass to the amazement of the world

petra1:



Have examined the evidence?

yes i have examined all the evidence ( claims ) you believers have brought for god but you guys are just joking. see these claims you dropped below.

You could believe that miracles could have been done by extraterrestrials but not God. That's hypocritical.

well i do not believe anything. i do not think extraterrestrial life created anything. stop committing the hasty conclusion fallacy.

The bible given contains prophecies and messages given by to through people who never knew each other across generations and the message is consistent.

The bible predicted Israel will go into captivity in Egypt 400 years ahead
The bible predicted their depart from Egypt
The bible predicted the promised land
The bible predicted babylonia destruction of israrl
The bible predicted the captivity of jew in Babylon
The bible predicted their return
The bible predicted rebuilding of the temple.
The bible predicted the bith of the jesus of Nazareth thousands of years ahead. I
It gave the specific time he will be born
It gave specific time he will die

What about the modern day historical prophecy.
The bible predicted Israel will cease to be a nation
The bible predicted their names will be wiped from the map of the word
The bible predicted they will be scattered
The bible predicted that the land of Israel will be divided to other countries "THEY PARTED MY LAND"
The bible predicted that Israel will become a nation again!

All these came to pass to the amazement of the world

this dude do i look like i am here to joke? first of all, if these claims are true it does not still validate the existence of god. now let me refute most of your claims

1) no single evidence for the Jews in Egypt apart from the bible, Koran and Torah. there is no archaeological evidence that the Israeli ever lived in Egypt. so god is wrong

2) read number 1

3) well since you claim the the god promised them a land cant be tested so we will leave this claim out. its the same as saying god promised Nigerians this land so god is real. that is a non sequitur

the bible just wrote the story. it never predicted anything

modern
you guys are jokers. you guys are not different from those people that believe in Nostradamus. you guys would have to wait for an event to pass by then try and twist any claim to suit the event.

here are some claims the bible made and has not come to pass
jesus is coming soon
what of the wrong scientific claim of the bible ?

judgementyard:
I think someone has forgotten to take his medications!
...'only a fool will say in his heart that there's no God'
Argue with yourself!

If you had any grain of sense in your foolish head you will have offered a rebuttal to the points stated instead of your usual stale mantra....

orunto27:
Gibberish.

Like you and your forefathers

chiommy123:
I wonder what is wrong with some people honestly they try to sound knowledgeable but they end up sounding stupid sorry but even the extraterrestrial powers the op keep mentioning recognized the existence of a higher power than theirs. Whether you like it or not op God is still God and nothing any power can do about it

Sorry to say this but you are dumb!

It is one of the problems of belief in a set of holy scriptures. The scriptures can not prove itself but can provide the means by which it may be proved.

In the case of the bible, the ways by which it says it can be proved to be true all fail to produce any evidence that will raise its certainty beyond the threshold of reasonable doubt. All of the supernatural powers the bible says believers will have, have not been conclusively shown to be in effect. All we see is results that are no better than chance.

hakeem4:


1) no single evidence for the Jews in Egypt apart from the bible, Koran and Torah. there is no archaeological evidence that the Israeli ever lived in Egypt. so god is wrong

That's only political. Just as the Palestinians and some Arabs tried to teach their children that holocaust never happened. But there are records that couldn't be wiped.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-fiction/

It depends on who you're talking to and where you're looking



3) well since you claim the the god promised them a land cant be tested so we will leave this claim out. its the same as saying god promised Nigerians this land so god is real. that is a non sequitur

the bible just wrote the story. it never predicted anything

The bible is not a person . Its compilations of writings of men across ages ,generations and location who never knew or influence each other. Yet the message is consistent.

The bible was compiled thousands of years ago. Yet it's more current than today's paper. Have you critically looked at the fulfilment of israel being a Nation? . The accuracy of the prophecy.

petra1:


The bible is not a person . Its compilations of writings of men across ages ,generations and location who never knew or influence each other. Yet the message is consistent.

The bible was compiled thousands of years ago. Yet it's more current than today's paper. Have you critically looked at the fulfilment of israel being a Nation? . The accuracy of the prophecy.

You need to go look at the origins of the bible a little more closely. Some of these your notions of what the bible is will evaporate.

LordReed:
It is one of the problems of belief in a set of holy scriptures. The scriptures can not prove itself but can provide the means by which it may be proved.

In the case of the bible, the ways by which it says it can be proved to be true all fail to produce any evidence that will raise its certainty beyond the threshold of reasonable doubt. All of the supernatural powers the bible says believers will have, have not been conclusively shown to be in effect. All we see is results that are no better than chance.

The problem you all face is this need to "believe", and unfortunately, the Bible appears to encourage it, especially if you miss the Spirit of it. But if you study any of the Gospels, you'd hardly find Jesus believing a single thing. Or was it not "belief", that he argued about with just about all those he debated with? Does satan too not believe and shudder? Can someone explain when something satan does became a virtue? Would you read Jack and the Beanstalk or the Tortoise and the Hare and believe it instead of learning the intent of the story?

Christianity and believers are not the same thing. Christianity, is in fact more about your "doings" and how you develop your brain, and if you limit yourself to believing, it is my opinion that you are lazy and are talentless and your manna must fall from the sky or you just haven't yet left your childish ways. And I doubt some of you have bothered to even read the Bible, not to talk of reading in Spirit!

If my Lord asks me to test the prophets, my Lord would expect that I test my Lord too, if simply because, as it is in heaven, so it is on earth.

P.s. Don't anyone bother quoting "believe" verses at me unless you've first read my view of believing here and here and considered that if you did not use your brain and believed what you were taught in maths class, you most likely failed maths!

You are very correct op, ""Miracles" In The Scriptures Don't Verify The Scriptures". They are not meant to, least, not in this day and age. I'd have to do something damaging to you to convince you a virgin gave birth without any manly contribution and trying will make me deservedly stupid or deceptive.

You might want to consider them more as riddles to be solved. Mere gnawing on them long enough with your mind is good exercise, and you too might learn to perform some.

Michellekabod2:
Like you and your forefathers

.

Father forgive Michellekabod2

Michellekabod2:
Many religious people claim that there are miracles, scientific or prophetic, in the scriptures and those miracles prove that their scriptures are true. They say that, despite their understanding that the same books have serious logical and scientific errors. Actually, there is no miracle in any of the religious scriptures. No sign of anything but stupidity and barbarity. Yet, let’s assume here today that there are miracles in the “holy” scriptures and try to understand if they are enough to become a believer.

The first question comes to our mind is what a miracle is. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a miracle is “something extraordinary or surprising.” That means we are assuming that there is something extraordinary or surprising in the scriptures; say, one of the Bible’s prophecies has come true in today’s time or the Quran precisely mentioned that the earth spins around the sun. Now, according to the theists we have to put our complete trust in the scriptures and follow whatever the scriptures say no matter how incongruous that sounds because we have found miracles in the scriptures! But no! Just because there are miracles or matters that are extraordinary to us, for now maybe, in the scriptures, that does not mean that those are from an omnipotent and omniscient god. There are three very good explanations for this:

1.Those miracles could just be the works of humans

We are very much aware of the fact that 2000 or 3000 years ago people were not uneducated and crude like the cavemen. People have been wondering about the universe and nature for thousands of years. For example, around the 3rd century BCE, Euclid wrote the epic book on geometry The Elements, Aristarchus of Samos created the first heliocentric model, Hippocrates discovered that there are scientific reasons for ailment, Democritus realized that the Milky Way galaxy has got millions of stars, Aristotle realized that the earth must be a globe; around the 2nd century BCE, Seleucus of Seleuci realized that the tide is caused by the moon; around the 1st century, Zhang Heng pointed out that the moon does not emit its own light but the reflected light of the sun, Indian physicist and astronomer Aryabhatta pointed out that the earth spins around the sun, calculated the exact distance between the earth and the moon and the value of pi. So, why would we think that the miracles in the scriptures have to be from a god? They could easily be from the writers of the scriptures who probably were smarter than the others they were surrounded by. They probably tried their best by researching and seeking knowledge to put something smart on the scriptures to make them look divine, or they probably hired other scientists to do that and later silenced them and destroyed their other works. There is a very good possibility of that because smart people used to exist in that period.

2. Those miracles could just be the works of the intelligent extraterrestrials

There are about 1024 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets in the observable universe! Therefore, the chance of another planet with a far more advanced civilization than ours is extremely high. So it would be safer to believe that the miracles in the scriptures could be the works of extraterrestrials than of a god. Although we have never been in contact with intelligent extraterrestrials, we could still guess the extraordinary phenomena on our planet are their works because their existence in the universe is almost certain according to the theory of probability. But, why would the aliens want to create religions and put some miracles in the scriptures? Because may be they want to halt our progression so that we never discover them and compete with them and they found that religions play a very good role in stopping humans from being smart. So possibly by putting miracles in the religions they have just fooled our gullible minds. Or maybe we all are just a part of their simulation projects. I am not kidding here. I am just talking about a possibility that makes more sense than the possibility of a god.

3. It is safer to believe in those previous theories than believing in the god theory

So, why would I believe in a god just because there are few surprising matters in the scriptures while there are two other better explanations for them? In fact, the first one is far more likely than the latter one. However, believing that those miracles are from a god and a true religion is harmful because, as mentioned above, religions enslave our brain and halt our progression. It persecutes thinking and rational people. Something inherently harmful should not be the part of any speculation about any natural and philosophical phenomena. Also, if god was omniscient and omnipotent, so capable of performing any miracle, then we would not have suffering and violence among us. Therefore, he is not omniscient and omnipotent and we cannot expect any miracle from that god. Moreover, we have no evidence of the existence of a god but we have the evidence of the ancient humans’ endeavor and the existence of trillions of planets.

By Jeff Moore
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/jeff-moore/miracles-scriptures-don-t-verify-scriptures



Cc:Hahn, hopefullanlord, budaatum, vic2ree, malvisguy212, CAPSLOCKED, lordreed, muttleylaff,martinez39,1sharon, jesusjnr,MJbolt, Dantedasz

Funny.
Is this not the same person, with the "I ported to Christianity thread", What were you trying to pull then.

LordReed:

You need to go look at the origins of the bible a little more closely.

I have

Some of these your notions of what the bible is will evaporate.

Like what precisely

petra1:


That's only political. Just as the Palestinians and some Arabs tried to teach their children that holocaust never happened. But there are records that couldn't be wiped.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-fiction/

It depends on who you're talking to and where you're looking

you decided to cite an apologist website as your source this shows houw intellectually dishonest you are. can you bring out any peered review archaeological document to support your claim.

3) well since you claim the the god promised them a land cant be tested so we will leave this claim out. its the same as saying god promised Nigerians this land so god is real. that is a non sequitur



The bible is not a person . Its compilations of writings of men across ages ,generations and location who never knew or influence each other. Yet the message is consistent.

The bible was compiled thousands of years ago. Yet it's more current than today's paper. Have you critically looked at the fulfilment of israel being a Nation? . The accuracy of the prophecy.

well that is your opinion. you can decide to think the bible is now more current than google itself. it does not change the fact that the bible is a book of myth written by iron age men who did not even know the earth orbited the sun. there is no wisdom in that book

peacesamuel94:



Funny.
Is this not the same person, with the "I ported to Christianity thread", What were you trying to pull then.

What is this clown saying? If it were the other way round will u not applaud me for " seeing the light "

petra1:


I have



Like what precisely

Then you know that Matthew, Mark and John were not written by the Apostles so named? You will also know that that the author of Luke took inspiration from the author of Mark. Also you will know that the form of which you now know the old testament books as was written after the Babylonian captivity.

There are many more for you to discover if you haven't already.

Michellekabod2:

What is this clown saying? If it were the other way round will u not applaud me for " seeing the light "

lol, You've assumed I'm at the moment religious.
Simple question and you had to display your
hollowness, speaking of the "other way round. You may go through the thread where you were porting. No comment of mine. I for one do not care what or where you choose to prostitute religiously. Just that its funny seeing someone profess a thing and strongly too one time and at another the opposite.
Calm down, settle down and decide what it is, you actually believe , lest tomorrow you're creating threads on the greatness of Allah and at another Vishnu.

peacesamuel94:


lol, You've assumed I'm at the moment religious.
Simple question and you had to display your
hollowness, speaking of the "other way round. You may go through the thread where you were porting. No comment of mine. I for one do not care what or where you choose to prostitute religiously. Just that its funny seeing someone profess a thing and strongly too one time and at another the opposite.
Calm down, settle down and decide what is it, you actually believe , lest tomorrow you're creating threads on the greatness of Allah and at another Vishnu.

I owe you an apology for assuming without evidence that you are religious

hakeem4:
you decided to cite an apologist website as your source this shows houw intellectually dishonest you are. can you bring out any peered review archaeological document to support your claim.



3) well since you claim the the god promised them a land cant be tested so we will leave this claim out. its the same as saying god promised Nigerians this land so god is real. that is a non sequitur



The bible is not a person . Its compilations of writings of men across ages ,generations and location who never knew or influence each other. Yet the message is consistent.

The bible was compiled thousands of years ago. Yet it's more current than today's paper. Have you critically looked at the fulfilment of israel being a Nation? . The accuracy of the prophecy.


well that is your opinion. you can decide to think the bible is now more current than google itself. it does not change the fact that the bible is a book of myth written by iron age men who did not even know the earth orbited the sun. there is no wisdom in that book

Kindly modify your post, not clear

LordReed:


Then you know that Matthew, Mark and John were not written by the Apostles so named? You will also know that that the author of Luke took inspiration from the author of Mark. Also you will know that the form of which you now know the old testament books as was written after the Babylonian captivity.

There are many more for you to discover if you haven't already.

You are big on evidence, so why don't you provide some?

Ihedinobi3:

You are big on evidence, so why don't you provide some?

The author of Luke used the Gospel of Mark as a source for the narrative of Christ's earthly life, and likely used a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source for Jesus' teachings, although the existence of Q has been questioned by some scholars.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke

At some point after the Babylonian Captivity, various Hebrew documents—now referred to as J, E, P and D—were woven together to form the Old Testament.
[url=https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist%26Civ/chapters/11OT.htm&ved=2ahUKEwiqvfP6v-fjAhVsQEEAHVXiAbkQFjABegQIDhAG&usg=AOvVaw1ZYNpwbHDYwFfN4T8GVJsD&cshid=1564862697173]SOURCE[/url]

Strictly speaking, each Gospel is anonymous.[55][56] The Gospel of John is something of an exception, although the author simply refers to himself as "the disciple Jesus loved" and claims to be a member of Jesus' inner circle.[57] During the following centuries, each canonical gospel was attributed to an apostle or to the close associate of an apostle.[58] Most scholars have rejected the traditional attributions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels#Authorship_and_date

LordReed:


The author of Luke used the Gospel of Mark as a source for the narrative of Christ's earthly life, and likely used a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source for Jesus' teachings, although the existence of Q has been questioned by some scholars.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke

At some point after the Babylonian Captivity, various Hebrew documents—now referred to as J, E, P and D—were woven together to form the Old Testament.
[url=https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist%26Civ/chapters/11OT.htm&ved=2ahUKEwiqvfP6v-fjAhVsQEEAHVXiAbkQFjABegQIDhAG&usg=AOvVaw1ZYNpwbHDYwFfN4T8GVJsD&cshid=1564862697173]SOURCE[/url]

Strictly speaking, each Gospel is anonymous.[55][56] The Gospel of John is something of an exception, although the author simply refers to himself as "the disciple Jesus loved" and claims to be a member of Jesus' inner circle.[57] During the following centuries, each canonical gospel was attributed to an apostle or to the close associate of an apostle.[58] Most scholars have rejected the traditional attributions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels#Authorship_and_date

Are your sources authoritative, LordReed?

Ihedinobi3:

Are your sources authoritative, LordReed?

Check them out yourself then tell me.

LordReed:


Check them out yourself then tell me.

I asked because if you are not sure, now would be a good time to say so. To make the claims you do on the strength of questionable authorities can end up rather embarrassing for you.

Ihedinobi3:

I asked because if you are not sure, now would be a good time to say so. To make the claims you do on the strength of questionable authorities can end up rather embarrassing for you.

You can provide your own more authoritative sources if you wish.

LordReed:


You can provide your own more authoritative sources if you wish.

I have not offered to do so, and I don't yet think it is worth it. Clearly, you have no idea whether what you said is true or false. It just suited you to say it, so you did. When you are willing to actually deal with your claims seriously, I will consider taking them seriously.