I saw this on a forum of atheist republic website posted by a atheist with the moniker Sheldon. The responses he got were quite insightful. I decided to post this here to get responses from theists.

A question for theists
I should like all the theists in here to list ten beliefs they hold without any objective evidence, and that are nothing to do with their religion.

Alternatively any theists can acknowledge they hold none, and explain why we should not infer an inherent bias in their religious belief, if it held to a different standard of evidence than all their other beliefs.

I would also like to ask to any theists here to list ten objectively moral actions, with evidence obviously, not just simply invoke their belief that objective morality exists because the deity they believe in is perfectly moral, as this is just a circular argument that invokes unevidenced claims.


Cc: elated177, enthronedbyGod,solite3, vic2ree, lordreed,Hahn, CAPSLOCKED, budaatum, muttleylaff,anas09,jesusjnr,MJBOLT, Martinez39

Michellekabod2:
I saw this on a forum of atheist republic website posted by a atheist with the moniker Sheldon. The responses he got were quite insightful. I decided to post this here to get responses from theists.

A question for theists
I should like all the theists in here to list ten beliefs they hold without any objective evidence, and that are nothing to do with their religion.

Alternatively any theists can acknowledge they hold none, and explain why we should not infer an inherent bias in their religious belief, if it held to a different standard of evidence than all their other beliefs.

I would also like to ask to any theists here to list ten objectively moral actions, with evidence obviously, not just simply invoke their belief that objective morality exists because the deity they believe in is perfectly moral, as this is just a circular argument that invokes unevidenced claims.

This is a DOA request, on the basis, that it isnt abiding by the bible definition and/or description of what religion that is pure true and without fault is, but not to be seen as a party pooper, here is me having a go, and my ten beliefs that I hold without any objective evidence, and that has nothing to do with my faith:

1/ I believe the chair in next office room wont collapse under me, if I choose to go in there and sit on it.
2/ I believe I wont fall off my bed, if I get to survive seeing tomorrow morning
3/ I believe I can easily find my way to work, if I take a completely and totally different route
4/ I playfully believe budaatum is female
5/ I believe there are a handful of sad nutcase fruitcakes on this forum
6/ I believe it'll will rain tomorrow
7/ I believe I'll get paid more at month ending than normal.
8/ I believe, I've pissed off quite a few today already
9/ I believe, I can fly
10/ I believe I am tired at #10

Michellekabod2:
I saw this on a forum of atheist republic website posted by a atheist with the moniker Sheldon. The responses he got were quite insightful. I decided to post this here to get responses from theists.

A question for theists
I should like all the theists in here to list ten beliefs they hold without any objective evidence, and that are nothing to do with their religion.

Alternatively any theists can acknowledge they hold none, and explain why we should not infer an inherent bias in their religious belief, if it held to a different standard of evidence than all their other beliefs.

I would also like to ask to any theists here to list ten objectively moral actions, with evidence obviously, not just simply invoke their belief that objective morality exists because the deity they believe in is perfectly moral, as this is just a circular argument that invokes unevidenced claims.


Cc: elated177, enthronedbyGod,solite3, vic2ree, lordreed,Hahn, CAPSLOCKED, budaatum, muttleylaff,anas09,jesusjnr,MJBOLT, Martinez39

I would be quite happy to do so, but I must ask a question first:

What constitutes evidence and what does not for the atheist?

Ihedinobi3:

I would be quite happy to do so, but I must ask a question first:

What constitutes evidence and what does not for the atheist?

anything presented in support of the existence of God, supernatural et Al that is objective is ample to qualify for an evidence

Michellekabod2:

anything presented in support of the existence of God, supernatural et Al that is objective is ample to qualify for an evidence

Okay, that only leaves me wondering what counts as "objective." I wouldn't want to post something and then we have a problem agreeing as to its objectivity.

Ihedinobi3:

Okay, that only leaves me wondering what counts as "objective." I wouldn't want to post something and then we have a problem agreeing as to its objectivity.

well all facts are objective. They’re true whether you choose to acknowledge or not for example. Heat from the sun is objective.

Ihedinobi3:

Okay, that only leaves me wondering what counts as "objective." I wouldn't want to post something and then we have a problem agreeing as to its objectivity.

Let's stick with this

This should be interesting!

hakeem4:
well all facts are objective. They’re true whether you choose to acknowledge or not for example. Heat from the sun is objective.

I completely agree. But in a debate, that "acknowledge" part is usually the sticking point. When people decide that their position is right no matter what, well, facts that disagree with them tend to no longer look like facts to them, you see.

Ihedinobi3:

I completely agree. But in a debate, that "acknowledge" part is usually the sticking point. When people decide that their position is right no matter what, well, facts that disagree with them tend to no longer look like facts to them, you see.

okay for example. If the other persons premise states the sun is not hot. I would just ask him to prove to me that the sun isn’t hot. Maybe he’d have to go near the sun to measure the temperature of the sun with a thermometer

Back to OP’s question. I presume you believe in a supreme being so you should at least answer op questions. If you can tell us with evidence any objective moral. Then I’m sure it would lead to an intelligent discuss

Michellekabod2:

Let's stick with this

Okay, we could. I should just put down this caveat: this definition does not tell us when someone's personal feelings and opinions are interfering. That might leave a loophole. If you or I make a statement and insist that it is entirely objective, we might still need to figure out the interference of personal feelings and opinions. Just saying.

If you're okay with that, let me know.

hakeem4:
okay for example. If the other persons premise states the sun is not hot. I would just ask him to prove to me that the sun isn’t hot. Maybe he’d have to go near the sun to measure the temperature of the sun with a thermometer

Back to OP’s question. I presume you believe in a supreme being so you should at least answer op questions. If you can tell us with evidence any objective moral. Then I’m sure it would lead to an intelligent discuss

As a rule, I don't mind discussing with handicaps. The problem is that you might.

Ihedinobi3:

As a rule, I don't mind discussing with handicaps. The problem is that you might.

well i just want to see your answer to the OP’s question that’s all

I am sure you are under order not to mention me Michelle, until you answered a question I asked you! Besides, I read what you say, at least here on the Religious section! Now look! 20 irrelevant mentions forcing me to engage in a thread I would not have touched with a barge pole!! Perhaps put the mentions in a subsequent post next time.

Michellekabod2:

A question for theists
I should like all the theists in here to list ten beliefs they hold without any objective evidence, and that are nothing to do with their religion.

I do not do belief! I rely way too much on objective evidence so test all beliefs so I either know or don't know instead. I will however give two beliefs that I continue to test, though, I do honestly know one of them.

buda belief 1
I buda believe that I must love the Lord my God with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind and being. But sometimes I might think I do but may be going astray. Call it, work in progress.


buda belief 2
I buda reap whatever I sow. When I sow hatred I reap hatred, and when I sow love I reap love and even the hatred in the haters dissolve and they too love. This is not a belief but a known tested fact. I am an experienced farmer after all.

Sorry I can't do ten beliefs. I find no joy in emulating satan!

budaatum:
I am sure you are under order not to mention me Michelle, until you answered a question I asked you! Besides, I read what you say, at least here on the Religious section! Now look! 20 irrelevant mentions forcing me to engage in a thread I would not have touched with a barge pole!! Perhaps put the mentions in a subsequent post next time.


I do not do belief! I rely way too much on objective evidence so test all beliefs so I either know or don't know instead. I will however give two beliefs that I continue to test, though, I do honestly know one of them.

buda belief 1
I buda believe that I must love the Lord my God with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind and being. But sometimes I might think I do but may be going astray. Call it, work in progress.


buda belief 2
I buda reap whatever I sow. When I sow hatred I reap hatred, and when I sow love I reap love and even the hatred in the haters dissolve and they too love. This is not a belief but a known tested fact. I am an experienced farmer after all.

Sorry I can't do ten beliefs. I find no joy in emulating satan!

Lol

Ihedinobi3:

Okay, we could. I should just put down this caveat: this definition does not tell us when someone's personal feelings and opinions are interfering. That might leave a loophole. If you or I make a statement and insist that it is entirely objective, we might still need to figure out the interference of personal feelings and opinions. Just saying.

If you're okay with that, let me know.

Please go ahead

Michellekabod2:

Please go ahead

All right then.

I have no beliefs, spiritual or secular, that have no objective evidence backing them. An example of a secular belief I have is that you're a female human. My proof for this is that you talk like one on here.

As for objective moral actions independent of my Faith in God, I know not a single one. Outside of an appeal to some objective code of conduct that is unaffected by human feelings, opinions, and passions, I see no reason to act except entirely as I please.

MuttleyLaff:
This is a DOA request, on the basis, that it isnt abiding by the bible definition and/or description of what religion that is pure true and without fault is, but not to be seen as a party pooper, here is me having a go, and my ten beliefs that I hold without any objective evidence, and that has nothing to do with my faith:

1/ I believe the chair in next office room wont collapse under me, if I choose to go in there and sit on it.
2/ I believe I wont fall off my bed, if I get to survive seeing tomorrow morning
3/ I believe I can easily find my way to work, if I take a completely and totally different route
4/ I playfully believe budaatum is female
5/ I believe there are a handful of sad nutcase fruitcakes on this forum
6/ I believe it'll will rain tomorrow
7/ I believe I'll get paid more at month ending than normal.
8/ I believe, I've pissed off quite a few today already
9/ I believe, I can fly
10/ I believe I am tired at #10

Hehehehehehehehe. These fellows think Objectivity is superior and objectivity is reality. Is the world objective?

Image123:


Hehehehehehehehe. These fellows think Objectivity is superior and objectivity is reality. Is the world objective?

The world actually is objective since its state of existence has nothing to do with subjective subjects. What we say about it though is subjective, since we are subjects and not objects.

As to whether objective is superior, that would first depend on superior to what, and be like asking if a stone is superior to subject or object you. What do you think?

budaatum:

The world actually is objective since its state of existence has nothing to do with subjective subjects. What we say about it though is subjective, since we are subjects and not objects.

As to whether objective is superior, that would first depend on superior to what, and be like asking if a stone is superior to subject or object you. What do you think?

When I said the world, i was not referring to the planet earth. I'm referring to the reality that we face every day, the love, the hate, the hunger, the betrayals, the luck, the positioning, the pain. These are not exact science but are more real to humanity than facts like 2+2=4 which atheists worship.

Image123:


When I said the world, i was not referring to the planet earth. I'm referring to the reality that we face every day, the love, the hate, the hunger, the betrayals, the luck, the positioning, the pain. These are not exact science but are more real to humanity than facts like 2+2=4 which atheists worship.

Oh I know. My response was to present a cross purpose where words don't mean the same to parties in a discussion. Your careful choice of the word "world" gave you away. It implies the subjectively experienced world, as in existence as perceived by the subject, and not the supposed objective one I presented in my retort.

I'm in discussion with my Lord where I'm being asked to provide objective evidence for a subjective reality, and despite his vast knowledge of me, he expects me to fall for that silly trick of arguing my subjective against his objective.

I think theists need to recognise this and stop trying to objectively prove God instead of silly ploys like the one presented here. Not only are such attempts in error as they try to turn God into an object, they make theists sound stupid too because it shows a lack of understanding that their experience of God is subjective. But much worse is that in trying to objectify the Lord God Almighty, one sins!

Image123, I buda bow!

Image123:


When I said the world, i was not referring to the planet earth. I'm referring to the reality that we face every day, the love, the hate, the hunger, the betrayals, the luck, the positioning, the pain. These are not exact science but are more real to humanity than facts like 2+2=4 which atheists worship.

So by what other method do you propose we verify our shared reality?

I so want to jump in and respond to my Lord, but I shall wait Image123, for your response to him first since he did ask it of you. Know though, I chomp at the bit.

Let's go back to origin of things. Have you ever seen with your eyes, anything that has ever come to existence, by its own Will?

Dtruthspeaker:
Let's go back to origin of things. Have you ever seen with your eyes, anything that has ever come to existence, by its own Will?

Have you seen with your own eyes a spirit of any kind?

LordReed:


Have you seen with your own eyes a spirit of any kind?

Thank you for settling and answering this topic in your non-answer.

You have also raised another topic here which clearly means that certain truths are established here and we can proceed to answer your own question from here on.

And I answer, that, we all have seen spirits with our eyes and the difference lies in the fact you are simply unaware of it neither do you recognise it nor did you ever know it, in the abundance of "I don't knows".

I previously did not know like you but now I know and I now understand.

It is my will to give you the evidence of it but I do not think you Truly and Really want to know as I already see that you have a fixed heart and not a truly considerate heart which is only after the truth like the air around you.

Dtruthspeaker:


Thank you for settling and answering this topic in your non-answer.

You have also raised another topic here which clearly means that certain truths are established here and we can proceed to answer your own question from here on.

And I answer, that, we all have seen spirits with our eyes and the difference lies in the fact you are simply unaware of it neither do you recognise it nor did you ever know it, in the abundance of "I don't knows".

I previously did not know like you but now I know and I now understand.

It is my will to give you the evidence of it but I do not think you Truly and Really want to know as I already see that you have a fixed heart and not a truly considerate heart which is only after the truth like the air around you.

If you feel my post was a non-answer, it's only because your post was a non-question.

BTW I give you till the heat death of the universe to provide evidence for spirits. Be sure I won't be holding my breath though.

LordReed:


If you feel my post was a non-answer, it's only because your post was a non-question.

BTW I give you till the heat death of the universe to provide evidence for spirits. Be sure I won't be holding my breath though.

I clearly said that you have answered the question I posed, not non-answer or that you failed to answer it.

Also, I let slip an evidence in proof of the truth of the presence and manifestation of the spirit, but as I said, you would miss it as you have clearly proven in your further request for evidence.

So welcome to the game of hide and seek for it is written it is the glory of God to Hide a matter and it is to the honour of kings to search it.

And seein that you are not able to uncover it, I'll leave you this clue (for if I have to tell you, it is ruined already). It is in my last post beginning with the first letter of the alphabet.

Dtruthspeaker:


I clearly said that you have answered the question I posed, not non-answer or that you failed to answer it.

Also, I let slip an evidence in proof of the truth of the presence and manifestation of the spirit, but as I said, you would miss it as you have clearly proven in your further request for evidence.

So welcome to the game of hide and seek for it is written it is the glory of God to Hide a matter and it is to the honour of kings to search it.

And seein that you are not able to uncover it, I'll leave you this clue (for if I have to tell you, it is ruined already). It is in my last post beginning with the first letter of the alphabet.

You didn't provide evidence, maybe you should look up the meaning and try again.

LordReed:


You didn't provide evidence, maybe you should look up the meaning and try again.

Woow! You are an idol- you have eyes, yet you see not. You have ears yet you hear not!. Is an idol not meant for the fire?

So my final answer to you goes thus-

if a thing is evident, it does not require evidence! Therefore all things evident are all things true. It is evident that there is light and darkness, up and down, left and right, good and evil,, seen and unseen and Law of opposites is hereby established.

But how can a man explain these things to a log of wood or a piece of metal, an idol through and through?

Dtruthspeaker:


Woow! You are an idol- you have eyes, yet you see not. You have ears yet you hear not!. Is an idol not meant for the fire?

So my final answer to you goes thus-

if a thing is evident, it does not require evidence! Therefore all things evident are all things true. It is evident that there is light and darkness, up and down, left and right, good and evil,, seen and unseen and Law of opposites is hereby established.

But how can a man explain these things to a log of wood or a piece of metal, an idol through and through?

And how does any of this provide evidence of a spirit?

You folk start with the stylised insults then when I pile on you like a hurricane, you start crying crocodile tears.

LordReed:



And how does any of this provide evidence of a spirit?

You folk start with the stylised insults then when I pile on you like a hurricane, you start crying crocodile tears.

Wow you still don't get it? You must not be an adult to not get it so I will make a final attempt to feed you milk.

Light/ darkness; in/out: seen and unseen. The things that are seen are all physical. The things that are unseen are what we call the invisible/ spirit and many other words described that which we cannot see, yet everyone knows that there are things unseen.

How do we know this? Because the things unseen are rather experienced e.g air. No one has ever seen air but we all know air and felt it's presence and power effect on our bodies themselves and also on our physical environment too. So also do we experience the power and the presence of the existence of the spirit in us through us and for us. The spirit is by far above our physical senses which are beyond the capabilities of all our physical sense organs, yet do we experience and feel the effects of its power

By what physical sense organ do we experience fear, apprehension, foreboding, foreknowledge, dread, accurate prediction etc and some of the things that we have all said at one time or the other " how you take know say hin go give you? or you know say you must meet am for house? or you know say bad thing go soon happen to you? And you Or a person you know was accurate at that particular time in that particular moment.

Do we not generally always answer "I no know oh I only just know say E go happen?"

No man can do these things of his own will but it is the movement of the presence of the spirit and that is why everyone who has attempted to repeat that fit of his own desire has failed and shall always fail.

All these activities and actions are the evidence and proof of the power and existence of the spirit.just like no matter how much you will it and desire it, you can not stop the wind from blowing or change the direction in which the wind blows nor neither do you know where the wind comes from or in where it shall go.

I rest my case