shadeyinka:

A good example is the "good thief" on the Cross. All he did was to TRUST in Christ and asked "Remember me when you get to your kingdom.." and Jesus said to him, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise".

You will argue this, I know, but tell me first what you understand if I say, "Remember me when you get to your kingdom", is work.

You might get what I mean when I say Jesus did give Grace to the "bad thief" who would not be being with him in Paradise because he did not do the work.

budaatum:

You will argue this, I know, but tell me first what you understand if I say, "Remember me when you get to your kingdom", is work.

You might get what I mean when I say Jesus did give Grace to the "bad thief" who would not be being with him in Paradise because he did not do the work.

Works mean "Good Works": Things We DO as part of the Works of the Ministry of Christ that involves the use of our Spiritual Gifts, Natural Abilities, Effort and Resources in Ministering to Men/Women/Children in LOVE.

Honestly, I do not see how the phrase "Remember me when you get to your kingdom" translates into Work by the definition of work above

budaatum:

When I think of the Bible, which for me is Salvation, I become overwhelmed at all the work done by millions who got it from being written thousand of years ago and passed it down through the centuries into my poor hands so I can be saved, because many died in the process of doing that work. Then I read about the so many people in the Bible itself who were burned and stoned and crucified and swallowed by giant fish, to mention just a few, while working for my salvation to the Glory of God, all which if not done I might still be damned.

I guess its a chicken or egg thing which is first for salvation, be it work or grace, but work does appear to be [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A15&version=NIV]the reason humans were created at the very beginning[/url] so I hold it in very high regard in the whole scheme of things as I understand you hold Grace. But if humans relied more on the reason for their creation, I think there would actually be an increase in Grace.

As to what is "dead work/filthy rags", the Parable of the Orangutan springs to mind.

If I understand what you are trying to say: I will like to make a distinction between WORKS that others have done which enabled me to be saved and my personal Works. My works is not a requirement for my salvation but my salvation came at a great cost to Christ and others who did the work. In other words, for me, all I have to present is not what I have done but what I have Received.

Kobojunkie:
I cannot speak to those who died BEFORE Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. For all you and I know, the story that Jesus Christ preached to the souls in chains(souls who died before jesus Christ did) may have some truth to it. What I can speak of though is that which applies to those who come after His death wanting to become His follower, and what I have to say to that is what Jesus Christ Himself teaches us all.
Faith without works is dead after all. So, according to Jesus Christ's own stipulation, faith alone cannot get you to becoming his follower.... you need works with your faith in order to qualify for membership in His exclusive club, and yet more work is necessary even after that to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven by the way.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works , lest any man should boast.

Can one work for a gift?
The bible emphatically says Salvation is NOT by WORKS!

What have you done to MERIT your Salvation?

Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


If you are to preach salvation to a dying sinner in a hospital, what will you tell him about salvation? Is it salvation by WORKS?

shadeyinka:

If I understand what you are trying to say: I will like to make a distinction between WORKS that others have done which enabled me to be saved and my personal Works. My works is not a requirement for my salvation but my salvation came at a great cost to Christ and others who did the work. In other words, for me, all I have to present is not what I have done but what I have Received.

Makes sense. I think you are one fortunate person to receive the Grace you receive so easily from God. My experience differs.

Opening my eyes so that I may see, which seems as easy as blinking, was the work I had to do in order for God to cure my blindness so that I may see. I was that blind! My work was not an offering to God but the requirement for God's Grace.

You would note the consequence of our difference in our different expectations of God. God Graces you with a pass in an exam you should have failed, while God Graces me by making me aware that if I do not put the study work in I will definitely fail.

It is still that way for me. I work seeking and then God Graces me, and I'd be jealous of you, except that all that work has prepared me for much more work, and thankfully, or unfortunately, depending how its looked at, the work is plenty indeed.

Thanks for sharing.

shadeyinka:


If you are to preach salvation to a dying sinner in a hospital, what will you tell him about salvation? Is it salvation by WORKS?

I think our definitions of work are a stumbling block to understanding one another. In the above you make work sound like lifting something very heavy.

Yes, the salvation of the dying sinner in a hospital is through work, though I hope I would have the decency to not judge anyone a sinner not to talk of a dying one. But if perhaps I was to preach salvation to a dying sinner in hospital, the words I might use might include, "repent", and "give your life to Christ", and those are commands for the dying sinner to work so they may receive God's Grace.

If it were not necessary for the dying sinner to do that most basic work, I think I'd of just prayed silently for the dying sinner and hoped for God's Grace on their behalf instead of asking them to work for it as I would have implied they must.

I should add here that I think it is several levels of wrong to try to use Paul's words(the words of a mere man like you and I) in an attempt to refute the words and commandments of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the very Son of God.

shadeyinka:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works , lest any man should boast.

Can one work for a gift?
The bible emphatically says Salvation is NOT by WORKS!

What is a gift?
The dictionary definition we have below..

gift
/ɡift/
noun
1.
a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
"a Christmas gift"

Jesus Christ never uses the word 'Free' or 'Gift' to qualify what He has for us.

Matthew 11 vs 27-30 (ESV)
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27. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

He made it abundantly clear that what He offers does not come without a cost attached, and that only those who are willing to take His yoke upon them, and learn from Him, will in fact get that which He has come to offer mankind. He never hid this truth from us.

shadeyinka:
What have you done to MERIT your Salvation?

Merit? I don't believe one can think in terms of merit when it has to do with becoming a follower of Jesus Christ i.e. being born of the Spirit. For you see, when you have lost it all, there is no nothing left to boast of.

shadeyinka:
Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Here's a question for you, what is grace?

shadeyinka:
If you are to preach salvation to a dying sinner in a hospital, what will you tell him about salvation? Is it salvation by WORKS?

I don't preach "Salvation" for I don't believe he, Paul, refers to the same thing that Jesus Christ calls us to preach, the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I instead preach of the Kingdom of God and how one has to become as a child and be born of the Spirit(born again) in order to enter into God's Kingdom.

budaatum:

Makes sense. I think you are one fortunate person to receive the Grace you receive so easily from God. My experience differs.

Opening my eyes so that I may see, which seems as easy as blinking, was the work I had to do in order for God to cure my blindness so that I may see. I was that blind! My work was not an offering to God but the requirement for God's Grace.

You would note the consequence of our difference in our different expectations of God. God Graces you with a pass in an exam you should have failed, while God Graces me by making me aware that if I do not put the study work in I will definitely fail.

It is still that way for me. I work seeking and then God Graces me, and I'd be jealous of you, except that all that work has prepared me for much more work, and thankfully, or unfortunately, depending how its looked at, the work is plenty indeed.

Thanks for sharing.

Oh yea!
Our experiences differ:
Some came to Christ because a lightning struck them and their strength was taken away
Some came to Christ because they were born to godly parents who led them to Christ even before they came to know sin
Some came to Christ as in by accident: they were looking for something else but they found Christ
Some came to Christ because their intellect and wisdom was disrupted as they disputed and argued against God
Some looked up to the sky and with no apparent reason were broken
etc

At the end, the Holy Spirit uses different means to bring us to the Cross and these is still by grace for some passed through the same path as ours yet became hardened enemy of God. Many seem not to have half our experience and thus seem perpetually lost but we did.

A heart of gratitude we should perpetually have.

Kobojunkie:
I should add here that I think it is several levels of wrong to try to use Paul's words(the words of a mere man like you and I) in an attempt to refute the words and commandments of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the very Son of God.
What is a gift?
The dictionary definition we have below..

Jesus Christ never uses the word 'Free' or 'Gift' to qualify what He has for us.

He made it abundantly clear that what He offers does not come without a cost attached, and that only those who are willing to take His yoke upon them, and learn from Him, will in fact get that which He has come to offer mankind. He never hid this truth from us.
Merit? I don't believe one can think in terms of merit when it has to do with becoming a follower of Jesus Christ i.e. being born of the Spirit. For you see, when you have lost it all, there is no nothing left to boast of.
Here's a question for you, what is grace?
I don't preach "Salvation" for I don't believe he, Paul, refers to the same thing that Jesus Christ calls us to preach, the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I instead preach of the Kingdom of God and how one has to become as a child and be born of the Spirit(born again) in order to enter into God's Kingdom.

John3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believe in Him should not Perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.

I hope you wouldn't say that this is the words of John rather than Christ as salvation is about BELIEVING in the Atonement of God through Christ

Preaching of Salvation is preaching the good news to all creatures.

Matthew 22: 1–14 has nothing to do with merit or work but attendance of the wedding through the invitation.

shadeyinka:

Honestly, I do not see how the phrase "Remember me when you get to your kingdom" translates into Work by the definition of work above

The good thief did something the bad thief didn't do. He trusted. That is "good work". But I understand how it might not translate or seem so.

shadeyinka:
John3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believe in Him should not Perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.
I hope you wouldn't say that this is the words of John rather than Christ as salvation is about BELIEVING in the Atonement of God through Christ

I am ok with you defining Salvation.

shadeyinka:
Preaching of Salvation is preaching the good news to all creatures.

The Good news? But there is a problem with that definition, for you see the Good news is Jesus Christ and He is the way, the truth and the Life, and He requires your obedience in Him. The Good news is in fact the message to become Born again i.e.qualify as a follower of Jesus Christ. So, since your definition of Salvation precludes obedience to the commandments that is Jesus Christ, then Salvation cannot in fact refer to the preaching of the Good news that is Jesus Christ.

Now if you were to stick to the first definition you gave stating that salvation is about BELIEVING in the Atonement of God through Christ, then sure, we can go with that. But you would also have to state the benefit of such an exercise since simply believing in the atonement of God through Christ does not guarantee one a place as a follower of Jesus Christ, and neither does it grant one access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, the same John the apostle whom you quoted earlier wrote the following in his epistle to all believers in the world.

1 John 2 vs 3-6
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3. If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him.
4. If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us.
5. But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
6. If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

In the above passage, John tells us that if all we have is a claim to believe but not obedience(but do not obey his commands), we do not have the Truth(Jesus Christ) living on the inside of us. Meaning we still have nothing of what Jesus Christ taught us and instructed.

I think you are trying to get around Jesus Christ's very own stipulations here. We are not meant to use scripture as a way of getting around obeying God's very own commandment. The ultimate truth here is God's word, and if God says A, but you find something saying B instead, always choose God's word over the alternative.

shadeyinka:
Matthew 22: 1–14 has nothing to do with merit or work but attendance of the wedding through the invitation.

If you read the last couple of verses in the passage, you will find the answer you seek. Those who were invited were expected to (a) ready themselves(wear the right clothes), and actually (b)attend (show up) for the banquet.

Matthew 22 vs 8-13 (ESV)
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8. “After that the king said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready. I invited those people, but they were not good enough to come to my feast.
9. So go to the street corners and invite everyone you see. Tell them to come to my feast.’
10. So the servants went into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, good and bad alike, and brought them to where the wedding feast was ready. And the place was filled with guests.

11. “When the king came in to meet the guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in the right clothes for a wedding.
12. The king said, ‘Friend, how were you allowed to come in here? You are not wearing the right clothes.’ But the man said nothing.
13. So the king told some servants, ‘Tie this man’s hands and feet. Throw him out into the darkness, where people are crying and grinding their teeth with pain.’

budaatum:

The good thief did something the bad thief didn't do. He trusted. That is "good work". But I understand how it might not translate or seem so.

But Trust is just like Faith: it isnt WORK.
Faith isn't work that is why its is said that "...and that, not of yourself"
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I submit that even this scripture show us that everything by which we are being saved is NOT of our selves and certainly not by Works

Kobojunkie:
I am ok with you defining Salvation.
The Good news? But there is a problem with that definition, for you see the Good news is Jesus Christ and He is the way, the truth and the Life, and He requires your obedience in Him. The Good news is in fact the message to become Born again i.e.qualify as a follower of Jesus Christ. So, since your definition of Salvation precludes obedience to the commandments that is Jesus Christ, then Salvation cannot in fact refer to the preaching of the Good news that is Jesus Christ.

Now if you were to stick to the first definition you gave stating that salvation is about BELIEVING in the Atonement of God through Christ, then sure, we can go with that. But you would also have to state the benefit of such an exercise since simply believing in the atonement of God through Christ does not guarantee one a place as a follower of Jesus Christ, and neither does it grant one access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, the same John the apostle whom you quoted earlier wrote the following in his epistle to all believers in the world.

In the above passage, John tells us that if all we have is a claim to believe but not obedience(but do not obey his commands), we do not have the Truth(Jesus Christ) living on the inside of us. Meaning we still have nothing of what Jesus Christ taught us and instructed.

I think you are trying to get around Jesus Christ's very own stipulations here. We are not meant to use scripture as a way of getting around obeying God's very own commandment. The ultimate truth here is God's word, and if God says A, but you find something saying B instead, always choose God's word over the alternative.

John was simply saying that if a person claims to be saved, his NEW nature will be evident for others to see. If a person claims that he is saved and his nature isn't changed, the person is most likely not saved

1 John 2 vs 3-6
3. If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him.
4. If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us.
5. But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
6. If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.
2Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Kobojunkie:

If you read the last couple of verses in the passage, you will find the answer you seek. Those who were invited were expected to (a) ready themselves(wear the right clothes), and actually (b)attend (show up) for the banquet.

A careful analysis of Matthew 22 show that
Matthew 22:8-13
8. “After that the king said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready. I invited those people, but they were not good enough to come to my feast.
9. So go to the street corners and invite everyone you see. Tell them to come to my feast.’
10. So the servants went into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, good and bad alike, and brought them to where the wedding feast was ready. And the place was filled with guests.
11. “When the king came in to meet the guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in the right clothes for a wedding.
12. The king said, ‘Friend, how were you allowed to come in here? You are not wearing the right clothes.’ But the man said nothing.
13. So the king told some servants, ‘Tie this man’s hands and feet. Throw him out into the darkness, where people are crying and grinding their teeth with pain.’
1. The good and bad didn't bring any wedding clothes, they were GIVEN by the host at the Wedding Feast (there was even no time for them to go prepare any dress for the wedding. They came as they were
2. You can only be allowed into the wedding hall if you had the wedding dress
3. The strange guest didn't come into the wedding naked. He came with his own clothes but it wasn't the wedding uniform
The clothe is the Righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ himself.

shadeyinka:
John was simply saying that if a person claims to be saved, his NEW nature will be evident for others to see. If a person claims that he is saved and his nature isn't changed, the person is most likely not saved
1 John 2 vs 3-6
3. If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him.
4. If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us.
5. But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
6. If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

I don't believe that is what John is saying at all. But let's go on.
So, this new Nature, how long from the point of claiming to believe does it show up? Immediately? 24-hours after the fact? A week? A year?
And for those who after believing, remain unsaved, i.e. do not experience this new Nature... how soon can one tell if one is saved or not?
And at what point does the Spirit of God show up?

shadeyinka:
A careful analysis of Matthew 22 show that
Matthew 22:8-13
8. “After that the king said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready. I invited those people, but they were not good enough to come to my feast.
9. So go to the street corners and invite everyone you see. Tell them to come to my feast.’
10. So the servants went into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, good and bad alike, and brought them to where the wedding feast was ready. And the place was filled with guests.
11. “When the king came in to meet the guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in the right clothes for a wedding.
12. The king said, ‘Friend, how were you allowed to come in here? You are not wearing the right clothes.’ But the man said nothing.
13. So the king told some servants, ‘Tie this man’s hands and feet. Throw him out into the darkness, where people are crying and grinding their teeth with pain.’
1. The good and bad didn't bring any wedding clothes, they were GIVEN by the host at the Wedding Feast (there was even no time for them to go prepare any dress for the wedding. They came as they were

The passage does not state that the gowns were given AT the wedding Feast though... read carefully and you will see this.

shadeyinka:
2. You can only be allowed into the wedding hall if you had the wedding dress

So when the King came in, where did He come in to?

shadeyinka:
3. The strange guest didn't come into the wedding naked. He came with his own clothes but it wasn't the wedding uniform
The clothe is the Righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ himself.

Imputed by Jesus Christ or the works of Righteousness done by those who are His as instructed of Sheeps in Jesus Christ's own story of what will take place in Matthew 25 vs 31 -46?

Matthew 25 vs 31-40 (ESV)
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31. “The Son of Man will come again with divine greatness, and all his angels will come with him. He will sit as king on his great and glorious throne.
32. All the people of the world will be gathered before him. Then he will separate everyone into two groups. It will be like a shepherd separating his sheep from his goats.
33. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34. “Then the king will say to the godly people on his right, ‘Come, my Father has great blessings for you. The kingdom he promised is now yours. It has been prepared for you since the world was made.
35. It is yours because when I was hungry, you gave me food to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink. When I had no place to stay, you welcomed me into your home.
36. When I was without clothes, you gave me something to wear. When I was sick, you cared for me. When I was in prison, you came to visit me.’
37. “Then the godly people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food? When did we see you thirsty and give you something to drink?
38. When did we see you with no place to stay and welcome you into our home? When did we see you without clothes and give you something to wear?
39. When did we see you sick or in prison and care for you?’
40. “Then the king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you did for any of my people here,[b] you also did for me.’
41. “Then the king will say to the evil people on his left, ‘Get away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42. You must go away because when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink.
43. When I had no place to stay, you did not welcome me into your home. When I was without clothes, you gave me nothing to wear. When I was sick and in prison, you did not care for me.’
44. “Then those people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty? When did we see you without a place to stay? Or when did we see you without clothes or sick or in prison? When did we see any of this and not help you?’
45. “The king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me.’
46. “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Kobojunkie:

I don't believe that is what John is saying at all. But let's go on.
So, this new Nature, how long from the point of claiming to believe does it show up? Immediately? 24-hours after the fact? A week? A year?
And for those who after believing, remain unsaved, i.e. do not experience this new Nature... how soon can one tell if one is saved or not?
And at what point does the Spirit of God show up?
The passage does not state that the gowns were given AT the wedding Feast though... read carefully and you will see this.
So when the King came in, where did He come in to?
Imputed by Jesus Christ or the works of Righteousness done by those who are His as instructed of Sheeps in Jesus Christ's own story of what will take place in Matthew 25 vs 31 -46?

The new nature occurs instantly a person receives the MARK of ownership (the Seal of the Holy Spirit). This person is NOW a child of God with the nature to love and please God. However, he is still a babe in Christ and he needs to grow up into maturity by desiring and taking the sincere milk of Gods word in obedience. Its just like a BABY is a full human being but he stumbles to walk and has to learn to become an adult.

The passage does not state that the gowns were given AT the wedding Feast though... read carefully and you will see this.

These people were picked on the street.
They were no prepared for any wedding so they couldn't have dressed up for any wedding.
Since there was a wedding uniform, it couldn't have been designed by them (they are many): so where did they get the wedding uniform to enter into the feast arena? The only way out is if they were GIVEN a uniform by the HOST

And for those who after believing, remain unsaved, i.e. do not experience this new Nature... how soon can one tell if one is saved or not?

How can one believe and yet remain unsaved? This contradicts the scriptures for the requirement is to BELIEVE in Gods Solution for eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So when the King came in, where did He come in to?
Imputed by Jesus Christ or the works of Righteousness done by those who are His as instructed of Sheeps in Jesus Christ's own story of what will take place in Matthew 25 vs 31 -46?

Since you can by your own righteousness merit your salvation, why then does Christ Jesus have to DIE?
Eph2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think you preach salvation by works which is not correct,

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! "

shadeyinka:
The new nature occurs instantly a person receives the MARK of ownership (the Seal of the Holy Spirit). This person is NOW a child of God with the nature to love and please God.

So without even obeying any single commandment that Jesus Christ stipulated, the Spirit of God automagically begins to live inside of this person?
Does this not stand in contradiction to what John the Apostle stated in His epistle?

1 John 2 vs 3-6
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3. If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him.
4. If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us.
5. But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
6. If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

You suggest that without obeying even a single one of Jesus Christ's own commandments, the Spirit of God is given to just about anyone who simply believes in Jesus Christ?

shadeyinka:
However, he is still a babe in Christ and he needs to grow up into maturity by desiring and taking the sincere milk of Gods word in obedience. Its just like a BABY is a full human being but he stumbles to walk and has to learn to become an adult

Sincere milk of God's word in obedience?
Still no use for this 'saved' individual to OBEY any of Jesus Christ's commandments, even though eternal life and the promise of Heaven are attached to a Covenant which requires obedience, and this according to Jesus Christ?"

By the way, you still didn't answer my questions.
So, of this new nature, how long from the point of claim to believe does it show up? Immediately? 24-hours after the fact? A week? A year?
And for those who, after believing, remain unsaved, i.e. do not experience this new nature... how soon can one tell if one is saved or not?
At what point does the Spirit of God show up?

shadeyinka:
These people were picked on the street.
They were no prepared for any wedding so they couldn't have dressed up for any wedding.
Since there was a wedding uniform, it couldn't have been designed by them (they are many): so where did they get the wedding uniform to enter into the feast arena? The only way out is if they were GIVEN a uniform by the HOST

The passage does not, however, suggest that the Host gave them the uniform though. I mean if it had been stated that that did in fact happen, then fine. But no line in the passage suggests that the outfit they wore was courtesy of the Wedding Host. Should we make the word of God say that which it does not say?

shadeyinka:
How can one believe and yet remain unsaved? This contradicts the scriptures for the requirement is to BELIEVE in Gods Solution for eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The same John also said in the same letter...

1 John 2 vs 3-6
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3. If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him.
4. If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us.
5. But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
6. If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

Here again, John is telling us that it is not simply ok to say one believes alone, for without obedience, one is a liar, and the truth i.e. the Spirit of Truth does not live inside of such a person.
Yet you tell us that simply by believing that Jesus Christ and the Father will come and dwell inside the saved individual, a claim that stands in contradiction to the very words of Jesus Christ Himself?

John 14 vs 22-26
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22. Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “Lord, how will you make yourself known to us, but not to the world?”
23. Jesus answered, “All who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them. My Father and I will come to them and live with them.
24. But anyone who does not love me does not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine. It is from my Father who sent me.
25. “I have told you all these things while I am with you.
26. But the Helper will teach you everything and cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name.

shadeyinka:
Since you can by your own righteousness merit your salvation, why then does Christ Jesus have to DIE?

Even in the Old testament, God commanded His people to do works of righteousness. The same works He instructs of us in Matthew 25 vs 31-40. After all in Matthew 5, we read that those who are poor of spirit, and those do works of righteous will indeed inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Surely, obeying God in all things is the key to Heaven. Since it is work done in obedience to God's commandment, how can it be said to be MY OWN righteousness?
When Jesus Christ did the Will of His Father, whose will was done and who got the glory - Jesus Christ or His Father in Heaven?
Jesus Christ spent His time on earth doing the Will of God, and He commands that we, His followers also follow His example by doing, not that which we want but that which God commands us to do, just as He has shown us.

shadeyinka:
I think you preach salvation by works which is not correct,

I don't preach 'Salvation' at all because it makes little to no sense to me when I consider that only those who obey Jesus Christ can indeed become His followers (born again) just as the Truth of God declared. If obedience to the very words of Jesus Christ is considered 'work', then fine. That is what Jesus Christ stipulated, and that is what I have tested and know works.

Kobojunkie:
So without even obeying any single commandment that Jesus Christ stipulated, the Spirit of God automagically begins to live inside of this person?
Does this not stand in contradiction to what John the Apostle stated in His epistle?

You suggest that without obeying even a single one of Jesus Christ's own commandments, the Spirit of God is given to just about anyone who simply believes in Jesus Christ?
Sincere milk of God's word in obedience?
Still no use for this 'saved' individual to OBEY any of Jesus Christ's commandments, even though eternal life and the promise of Heaven are attached to a Covenant which requires obedience, and this according to Jesus Christ?"

By the way, you still didn't answer my questions.
So, of this new nature, how long from the point of claim to believe does it show up? Immediately? 24-hours after the fact? A week? A year?
And for those who, after believing, remain unsaved, i.e. do not experience this new nature... how soon can one tell if one is saved or not?
At what point does the Spirit of God show up?
The passage does not, however, suggest that the Host gave them the uniform though. I mean if it had been stated that that did in fact happen, then fine. But no line in the passage suggests that the outfit they wore was courtesy of the Wedding Host. Should we make the word of God say that which it does not say?

The same John also said in the same letter...

Here again, John is telling us that it is not simply ok to say one believes alone, for without obedience, one is a liar, and the truth i.e. the Spirit of Truth does not live inside of such a person.
Yet you tell us that simply by believing that Jesus Christ and the Father will come and dwell inside the saved individual, a claim that stands in contradiction to the very words of Jesus Christ Himself?

Even in the Old testament, God commanded His people to do works of righteousness. The same works He instructs of us in Matthew 25 vs 31-40. After all in Matthew 5, we read that those who are poor of spirit, and those do works of righteous will indeed inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Surely, obeying God in all things is the key to Heaven. Since it is work done in obedience to God's commandment, how can it be said to be MY OWN righteousness?
When Jesus Christ did the Will of His Father, whose will was done and who got the glory - Jesus Christ or His Father in Heaven?
Jesus Christ spent His time on earth doing the Will of God, and He commands that we, His followers also follow His example by doing, not that which we want but that which God commands us to do, just as He has shown us.
I don't preach 'Salvation' at all because it makes little to no sense to me when I consider that only those who obey Jesus Christ can indeed become His followers (born again) just as the Truth of God declared. If obedience to the very words of Jesus Christ is considered 'work', then fine. That is what Jesus Christ stipulated, and that is what I have tested and know works.

Its unfortunate that it seems your impression with the gospel of Gods grace is a license for sin, unrighteousness and riotous liveing: it is NOT.
What did Jesus say about a GOOD TREE?
It brings forth good fruit.
Thorns will always bring forth thorns.

I think it is difficult for you comprehending the omniscience of God because
Rom8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew , He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…

The gift of Salvation is perfected by Gods Foreknowledge.

So without even obeying any single commandment that Jesus Christ stipulated, the Spirit of God automagically begins to live inside of this person?

The Spirit of God is the SEAL that confers upon us the SONSHIP of God
John1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
Ephesians 1:13b-14
“When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal , the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”
I don't know how else you want to interpret the scriptures above

I don't preach 'Salvation' at all because it makes little to no sense to me when I consider that only those who obey Jesus Christ can indeed become His followers (born again) just as the Truth of God declared. If obedience to the very words of Jesus Christ is considered 'work', then fine. That is what Jesus Christ stipulated, and that is what I have tested and know works.

Because, you with due respect you don't seem understand why the LAMB of God was slain.
Because you see human beings who claim to be Born Again living like unbelievers (even though this is true, is it your standard or Christ Himself?)

Lets see what the scriptures say as requirement for salvation

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 8:12
Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:15-16
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 3:18-19
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 7:37-38
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 12:46-48
I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39
and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 10:9-14
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Hebrews 10:38-39
But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

1 John 5:10-13
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

The passage does not, however, suggest that the Host gave them the uniform though. I mean if it had been stated that that did in fact happen, then fine. But no line in the passage suggests that the outfit they wore was courtesy of the Wedding Host. Should we make the word of God say that which it does not say?

Since the wedding ceremony was set even before calling the "outcasts", how do you suggest that they got their wedding dress? How did they pay for it?

shadeyinka:
Its unfortunate that it seems your impression with the gospel of Gods grace is a license for sin, unrighteousness and riotous liveing: it is NOT.

My impression of the Gospel of God's grace? Well, the problem is my understanding of what God's grace refers to is a lot different from what the gospel of God's grace pretends it refers to.

shadeyinka:
What did Jesus say about a GOOD TREE?
It brings forth good fruit.
Thorns will always bring forth thorns.

According to Jesus Christ, the Bad tree brings forth fruits too, only the fruis are bad. So?

shadeyinka:
I think it is difficult for you comprehending the omniscience of God because

Oh, I have no problem comprehending the omniscience of God... I am excellent in that department, only I fail to see what that has to do with this now.

shadeyinka:
The gift of Salvation is perfected by Gods Foreknowledge.

Wait, what?

shadeyinka:
The Spirit of God is the SEAL that confers upon us the SONSHIP of God
John1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God..

Honestly, when John speaks of "believing", I am of the mind that his take is that those who believe, do. Which diametrically opposes your gospel of grace assumption that belief merely involves mental gymnastics of sorts(no actual obedience of that which one claims to believe necessary).

shadeyinka:
I don't know how else you want to interpret the scriptures above
Because, you with due respect you don't seem understand why the LAMB of God was slain.

Oh, I know why the Lamb of God was slain..

shadeyinka:
Because you see human beings who claim to be Born Again living like unbelievers (even though this is true, is it your standard or Christ Himself?)

Jesus Christ's standard for all His followers are contained in the New Covenant which He defined by His life and every word/commandment. That I see Human beings who claim to be born again living like unbelievers(as in without obedience to Jesus Christ's own teachings) stands as proof of the failings of the doctrines of Gospel of God's grace/Salvation, a delusion that Jesus Christ Himself never taught or suggested.

shadeyinka:
Lets see what the scriptures say as requirement for salvation
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 8:12
Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:15-16
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 3:18-19
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 7:37-38
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 12:46-48
I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39
and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 10:9-14
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Hebrews 10:38-39
But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

1 John 5:10-13
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

Wait a second... are you suggesting then that the passages I posted earlier where Jesus Christ Himself explained the requirements for membership into His exclusive club are somehow invalidated by this randomly sourced placings above?

shadeyinka:
Since the wedding ceremony was set even before calling the "outcasts", how do you suggest that they got their wedding dress? How did they pay for it?

I don't know but I would rather than not add or remove and let the TRUTH read itself to me.

This is what makes FAITH appears and sound delusional before right thinking persons!

Kobojunkie and Shadeyinka claims they're both believers having faith, yet the two of you can't agree on the interpretation and understanding of the same book you both claim is a book of FAITH.
This is the result of the rebellious spirit dwelling in both of you, none of you believe in a source of divine guidance as in a unique group.
So an atheist (unbeliever) started this but both of you have proved true to his claim with your contradictions.
Though ATHEISM itself is also contradictory yet you guys have equated your conflicting beliefs with ATHEISM!

Kobojunkie:
My impression of the Gospel of God's grace? Well, the problem is my understanding of what God's grace refers to is a lot different from what the gospel of God's grace pretends it refers to.
According to Jesus Christ, the Bad tree brings forth fruits too, only the fruis are bad. So?

In other words, the stock of the tree that determines the kind of fruit it produces.

Kobojunkie:

Oh, I have no problem comprehending the omniscience of God... I am excellent in that department, only I fail to see what that has to do with this now.
Wait, what?

It simply means
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Rom 8:28-29
29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…

If God knows the future before he made the world enough to prepare a lamb from the foundations of the world. He has perfected those who would be saved because God has foreknown them. God cannot make a mistake. Its either you are saved or NOT.

Kobojunkie:

Honestly, when John speaks of "believing", I am of the mind that his take is that those who believe, do. Which diametrically opposes your gospel of grace assumption that belief merely involves mental gymnastics of sorts(no actual obedience of that which one claims to believe necessary).

John didn't oppose the gospel of grace. John was warning those who assumed grace gives them a license for lasciviousness and laziness.
A saved person is known by the character he extrudes is the message of John

Kobojunkie:

Oh, I know why the Lamb of God was slain..

Really!?
But why is Christ sacrifice not enough for your salvation? If your righteousness does it, why dont you disregard Christ and pursue holy living.
Gal 3:10-11
10 All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

Kobojunkie:

Jesus Christ's standard for all His followers are contained in the New Covenant which He defined by His life and every word/commandment. That I see Human beings who claim to be born again living like unbelievers(as in without obedience to Jesus Christ's own teachings) stands as proof of the failings of the doctrines of Gospel of God's grace/Salvation, a delusion that Jesus Christ Himself never taught or suggested.

Mat7:21
Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Its not by claiming born again but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Its is being a NEW creature

Kobojunkie:

Wait a second... are you suggesting then that the passages I posted earlier where Jesus Christ Himself explained the requirements for membership into His exclusive club are somehow invalidated by this randomly sourced placings above?
I don't know but I would rather than not add or remove and let the TRUTH read itself to me.

Jesus explained it perfectly
John3:14-16
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This could not have been clearer.

Numbers 21:4-9
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived

What you advocate is that after the children of Israel has looked upon the bronze serpent it cannot work until they apply some drugs and medications.

shadeyinka:
In other words, the stock of the tree that determines the kind of fruit it produces.

It simply means
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. [/quote]What? You are taking a leap again... Rather than confront the faults that your gospel of God's grace obviously have when put right next to the teachings of Jesus Christ, you instead condemn the souls that according to you did 'believe' in your doctrine?

shadeyinka:
If God knows the future before he made the world enough to prepare a lamb from the foundations of the world. He has perfected those who would be saved because God has foreknown them. God cannot make a mistake. Its either you are saved or NOT.

So you are suggesting then that this is all a game or a show? For whose benefit?

shadeyinka:
John didn't oppose the gospel of grace. John was warning those who assumed grace gives them a license for lasciviousness and laziness.
A saved person is known by the character he extrudes is the message of John

I disagree! John said little to nothing about us being saved by Grace. And I believe the reason is he understood clearly what grace indeed points to. Paul, as well did but his message has been misconstrued to create this illusion that salvation is indeed through grace.

By the way, what is grace? What does the grace of God refer to? I asked that question earlier but you did not provide a response.

shadeyinka:
Really!?
But why is Christ sacrifice not enough for your salvation? If your righteousness does it, why dont you disregard Christ and pursue holy living.

He died to ratify the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ. And by that death, We, who choose to love Him(and obey Him) are no longer condemned by the Old Covenant, as we partake of the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ. Through obedience, We become followers(Born into the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ) and will in continued obedience remain in His love.

Why do I need Salvation that sounds like a game of chance when I can have the next best thing, becoming a follower of Jesus Christ by believing(obedience required) in Him and His word to me?

shadeyinka:
Mat7:21
Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Its not by claiming born again but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Its is being a NEW creature

But just about about anyone can say 'Lord, Lord', even those who don't really care for Jesus Christ and what He is selling.

shadeyinka:
Jesus explained it perfectly
John3:14-16
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This could not have been clearer.
Numbers 21:4-9
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived

Again, Jesus Christ who we already know commands obedience was not refering even here to belief as interpreted by the doctrine of Salvation by God's grace as I stated earlier with John. Or we would have Jesus Christ contradicting Himself.
A closer look at the story about the story in Numbers reveals that there it belief(mental gymnastics) was not the only command there, but obedience was what was required.

shadeyinka:
What you advocate is that after the children of Israel has looked upon the bronze serpent it cannot work until they apply some drugs and medications.

I am not the one advocating that at all. You are. I simply advocate for OBEDIENCE of the command given is necessary -- in the case with the israelites, they simply had to obey the command to look up at the snake.

Jesus Christ is a Contract. No mental gymnastics necessary. This contract, just like the contract God made above in the story with the snake on the tree, does not require much heavy lifting on your part. All He wants is obedience... He make that clear in the Old Covenant and it is the same with the New Covenant. He, the seal of His own Covenant said He will do the heavy lifting on our behalf. All we have to do is trust Him and OBEY Him!. Just do it!
The rest, He will make happen, not by your strength but by His.

Kobojunkie:

It simply means
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. What? You are taking a leap again... Rather than confront the faults that your gospel of God's grace obviously have when put right next to the teachings of Jesus Christ, you instead condemn the souls that according to you did 'believe' in your doctrine?
If God knows the future before he made the world enough to prepare a lamb from the foundations of the world. He has perfected those who would be saved because God has foreknown them. God cannot make a mistake. Its either you are saved or NOT. So you are suggesting then that this is all a game or a show? For whose benefit?
John didn't oppose the gospel of grace. John was warning those who assumed grace gives them a license for lasciviousness and laziness.
A saved person is known by the character he extrudes is the message of John I disagree! John said little to nothing about us being saved by Grace. And I believe the reason is he understood clearly what grace indeed points to. Paul, as well did but his message has been misconstrued to create this illusion that salvation is indeed through grace.

By the way, what is grace? What does the grace of God refer to? I asked that question earlier but you did not provide a response.
Really!?
But why is Christ sacrifice not enough for your salvation? If your righteousness does it, why dont you disregard Christ and pursue holy living. He died to ratify the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ. And by that death, We, who choose to love Him(and obey Him) are no longer condemned by the Old Covenant, as we partake of the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ. Through obedience, We become followers(Born into the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ) and will in continued obedience remain in His love.

Why do I need Salvation that sounds like a game of chance when I can have the next best thing, becoming a follower of Jesus Christ by believing(obedience required) in Him and His word to me?
Mat7:21
Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Its not by claiming born again but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Its is being a NEW creature But just about about anyone can say 'Lord, Lord', even those who don't really care for Jesus Christ and what He is selling.
Jesus explained it perfectly
John3:14-16
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This could not have been clearer.
Numbers 21:4-9
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived Again, Jesus Christ who we already know commands obedience was not refering even here to belief as interpreted by the doctrine of Salvation by God's grace as I stated earlier with John. Or we would have Jesus Christ contradicting Himself.
A closer look at the story about the story in Numbers reveals that there it belief(mental gymnastics) was not the only command there, but obedience was what was required.
What you advocate is that after the children of Israel has looked upon the bronze serpent it cannot work until they apply some drugs and medications. I am not the one advocating that at all. You are. I simply advocate for OBEDIENCE of the command given is necessary -- in the case with the israelites, they simply had to obey the command to look up at the snake.

Jesus Christ is a Contract. No mental gymnastics necessary. This contract, just like the contract God made above in the story with the snake on the tree, does not require much heavy lifting on your part. All He wants is obedience... He make that clear in the Old Covenant and it is the same with the New Covenant. He, the seal of His own Covenant said He will do the heavy lifting on our behalf. All we have to do is trust Him and OBEY Him!. Just do it!
The rest, He will make happen, not by your strength but by His.

What is the Gospel of Grace as it seems you dont understand its meaning.

It means that by myself I am not qualified and cannot by any means attain Salvation from the second death.
However, God through Christ paid the full price which amongst other things
1. Imputes in me a New Nature that hates sin and love to obey God
2. Qualifies me to be a child of God.
3. Gives me power to Serve God in spirit and in truth
4. Writes my name in the Lambs Book of Life
5. Gives me authority over demons and unclean spirits
6. Imputes in me the Righteousness of Christ
7. Gives me hope for an eternal reward with God.

Grace does not give me a license to SIN.
Anyone who enjoys SIN or give excuse for sin is most likely never born again. However if I do sin, I have an advocate; the Holy Spirit
Identifying one who is Born Again is by LOOKING at the FRUIT of LOVE through OBEDIENCE that emanates from such.

I am saved by Grace through Faith to WORK for God in LOVE AND HOLINESS.

shadeyinka:

What is the Gospel of Grace as it seems you dont understand its meaning.

It means that by myself I am not qualified and cannot by any means attain Salvation from the second death.
However, God through Christ paid the full price which amongst other things
1. Imputes in me a New Nature that hates sin and love to obey God
2. Qualifies me to be a child of God.
3. Gives me power to Serve God in spirit and in truth
4. Writes my name in the Lambs Book of Life
5. Gives me authority over demons and unclean spirits
6. Imputes in me the Righteousness of Christ
7. Gives me hope for an eternal reward with God.

Grace does not give me a license to SIN.
Anyone who enjoys SIN or give excuse for sin is most likely never born again. However if I do sin, I have an advocate; the Holy Spirit
Identifying one who is Born Again is by LOOKING at the FRUIT of LOVE through OBEDIENCE that emanates from such.

I am saved by Grace through Faith to WORK for God in LOVE AND HOLINESS.

So according to your doctrine of salvation through the God's grace, the cost you is nothing i.e it is free, even though Jesus Christ never stated that what He offers comes at no cost to those who desire it?

Matthew 11 vs 27-30 (ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Kobojunkie:
So according to your doctrine of salvation through the God's grace, the cost you is nothing i.e it is free, even though Jesus Christ never stated that what He offers comes at no cost to those who desire it?

Of course SALVATION is FREE: it is a GIFT
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The Reward for my Faithfulness to Christ through OBEDIENCE, DUTY and LOVE is not Free however. I have to work HARD for it
Romans 2:6
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Galatians 6:9
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Unfaithfulness to Christ also has its serious reward

LordReed:


LoL! I don't know why it gets so complicated for you folks.

Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of god or gods.

There is nothing in atheism that says you must base your atheism on a belief that the universe came from nothing or that chaos spontaneously creates order without external agency. The simple question atheism asks is can you prove convincingly that a god or gods exist? If you want to "disprove atheism" all that is needed is to prove a god or gods exist. Lumping atheism with cosmology and evolution shows you have a poor understanding of the subject matter. Even if tomorrow you disprove evolution or anything we know about cosmology, you still won't have answered the question atheism asks.

You have time o

LordReed:

Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of god or gods.

I find that for many atheists, atheism means 'a belief that there are no gods or God'. I call such people, believers, same as those who believe there is a God or gods.

They should all endeavour to know or simple accept they are ignorant about gods.

Judybash93:


You have time o

LoL! I have decided not to have time any more. LMAO!

budaatum:

I find that for many atheists, atheism means 'a belief that there are no gods or God'. I call such people, believers, same as those who believe there is a God or gods.

They should all endeavour to know or simple accept they are ignorant about gods.

Indeed my dear buda.

shadeyinka:

But Trust is just like Faith: it isnt WORK.
Faith isn't work that is why its is said that "...and that, not of yourself"
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I submit that even this scripture show us that everything by which we are being saved is NOT of our selves and certainly not by Works

First, my own salvation is irrelevant to me, if salvation means, not going to hell. Because since I cannot [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A25-34&version=NKJV]add a cubit to my stature[/url] on earth, I see no reason to attempt to add to it in the afterlife, especially as any attempt to do so implies a lack of faith. Jesus preached unselfishness to me and I apply that reasoning where my salvation is concerned by leaving it to the Grace of God, and I find that at least my salvation on earth is obviously certain.

Second, salvation on earth, which concerns me a lot, manifests in the simple practicality of what one is saved from, like not being sheltered, hunger, illness, strife, war, and water coming out of the tap. I mean, it would be rather difficult to pressume to be saved while living on the street, or an empty belly or while dying of an illness or bombs dropping around one or not having easy access to water . Not only would I not consider myself saved under such circumstances, I'm likely to raise my fists to heaven screaming, "God, why have you forsaken me?", which I very likely wouldn't scream if I were saved.

Third. I said my own salvation does not concern me. The reason for this is God's Grace, with no input from me, has sheltered me and filled my belly and cured me from severe illness and there's relative peace around me and water comes from taps in both my bathroom and kitchen. 'Thank you Lord for blessing me with so much' I say, because I'm very certain God might have decided to not do these salvationary things for me, and has definitely not done them for some of my neighbours.

Fourth, God has this funny way of having to use its creations to fulfil Gods own ends for reasons I can't explain. God could have for instance gone to Egypt and said, "Pharoah! My people are leaving today", or even "Israelites! Fuq Pharoah. You are leaving now", and there wouldn't have been anything either the Israelites or Pharoah could have done to stop them, but God did not do this and sent Moses instead. God could have gone to Nineveh, but sent Jonah instead. God could have saved the world, but instead sent Jesus. God could save Nigeria, but instead, send buda please. You might from that understand why buda is work, work, work.

It's for these understandings perhaps, and much more, I'm certain, that while you seem to understand the verse you quoted as "Don't work so you have nothing to boast about", I read the same verses as "boasting about work is bad", which even still kind of defies the logic of a simple curriculum vitae which is a process of boasting about previous works in order to be paid for future work so as to save oneself from not being sheltered, hunger, illness, strife, war, and water not coming out of the tap, by God's Grace.

Trust me when I say I would never teach a doctrine I'm understanding you to be saying, i.e., " Salvation is by grace so do not work for it" (it's not exactly what you say, but what can be inferred from what you say. I would definitely not preach it to my child least my child starts thinking it would by grace pass an exam it never studied for or that manna it didn't work for would fall into its mouth from heaven. And even if God stood in front of me saying "Salvation is by Grace", I would likely do James and say, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202%3A14-26&version=NKJV]Faith without works is dead[/url], as are those who work not, and would consider adding "get the behind me satan", because I very strongly believe that one cannot be saved by doing no work and a doctrine to the contrary is ungodly, despite Scripture.

Do note that underlying this view is the knowledge that Scripture is not God, but words in a book until one breathes the breathe of understanding into them so they live.

budaatum:


First, my own salvation is irrelevant to me, if salvation means, not going to hell. Because since I cannot [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A25-34&version=NKJV]add a cubit to my stature[/url] on earth, I see no reason to attempt to add to it in the afterlife, especially as any attempt to do so implies a lack of faith. Jesus preached unselfishness to me and I apply that reasoning where my salvation is concerned by leaving it to the Grace of God, and I find that at least my salvation on earth is obviously certain.

Second, salvation on earth, which concerns me a lot, manifests in the simple practicality of what one is saved from, like not being sheltered, hunger, illness, strife, war, and water coming out of the tap. I mean, it would be rather difficult to pressume to be saved while living on the street, or an empty belly or while dying of an illness or bombs dropping around one or not having easy access to water . Not only would I not consider myself saved under such circumstances, I'm likely to raise my fists to heaven screaming, "God, why have you forsaken me?", which I very likely wouldn't scream if I were saved.

Third. I said my own salvation does not concern me. The reason for this is God's Grace, with no input from me, has sheltered me and filled my belly and cured me from severe illness and there's relative peace around me and water comes from taps in both my bathroom and kitchen. 'Thank you Lord for blessing me with so much' I say, because I'm very certain God might have decided to not do these salvationary things for me, and has definitely not done them for some of my neighbours.

Fourth, God has this funny way of having to use its creations to fulfil Gods own ends for reasons I can't explain. God could have for instance gone to Egypt and said, "Pharoah! My people are leaving today", or even "Israelites! Fuq Pharoah. You are leaving now", and there wouldn't have been anything either the Israelites or Pharoah could have done to stop them, but God did not do this and sent Moses instead. God could have gone to Nineveh, but sent Jonah instead. God could have saved the world, but instead sent Jesus. God could save Nigeria, but instead, send buda please. You might from that understand why buda is work, work, work.

It's for these understandings perhaps, and much more, I'm certain, that while you seem to understand the verse you quoted as "Don't work so you have nothing to boast about", I read the same verses as "boasting about work is bad", which even still kind of defies the logic of a simple curriculum vitae which is a process of boasting about previous works in order to be paid for future work so as to save oneself from not being sheltered, hunger, illness, strife, war, and water not coming out of the tap, by God's Grace.

Trust me when I say I would never teach a doctrine I'm understanding you to be saying, i.e., " Salvation is by grace so do not work for it" (it's not exactly what you say, but what can be inferred from what you say. I would definitely not preach it to my child least my child starts thinking it would by grace pass an exam it never studied for or that manna it didn't work for would fall into its mouth from heaven. And even if God stood in front of me saying "Salvation is by Grace", I would likely do James and say, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202%3A14-26&version=NKJV]Faith without works is dead[/url], as are those who work not, and would consider adding "get the behind me satan", because I very strongly believe that one cannot be saved by doing no work and a doctrine to the contrary is ungodly, despite Scripture.

Do note that underlying this view is the knowledge that Scripture is not God, but words in a book until one breathes the breathe of understanding into them so they live.

I think the bottom line is the comprehendsion of what one is saved from. Salvation is synonymous with DELIVERANCE and there are at least three levels of deliverance of a person.

I will try and break it down in a form fairly comprehendsion howbeit simplistic.

1. Deliverance of the BODY:
Healing and Restoration of bodily well-being
2. Deliverance of the SOUL:
Mental/Psychological Healing, mental well-being and tranquility of one's mental space
3. Deliverance of the SPIRIT:
Healing of one's spirit (restoring spiritual strength, nature, ability, senses etc) through the removal of the kernel of sin and restoring the kernel of God's Spirit.
4. Deliverance of our ENVIRONMENT:
Healing and restoration of the Earth (our abode) to perfection.

Jesus had to die on the cross mainly for the deliverance of our Spirit UNTIL we are REBOOTED at death. After our reboot, our whole system is rewritten according to the instruction in our Spirit kernel. A reboot of our person (at death) without the antivirus of Christ's blood haven restored our spirit kernel restore us to our faulty OLD nature of sin.

Deliverance of our Body and/or Soul may sometimes accompany salvation but not necessarily. Most times, a good DIET of the Word of God restores the necessary balance in the health of our SOUL through Faith


SIN isn't just an action but a Nature/Infection of our spirit which made our soul go rogue (to God) and our body subject to decay.

SIN by itself is like a VIRUS that denatures our true nature and potential. The consequence/wages of SIN is death (body, soul, spirit and environment) where DECAY sets in.

SIN brings out our SELFISH nature AND pursuit of INDEPENDENCE from God.

Finally, we were created for just one purpose: to give God Pleasure as the peak of His creation. Fully/Totally Free and Unleashed yet living only to express LOVE to his Creator.

The statement above is the summary of what salvation truely means. It's not about living in the Paradise of God in bliss (even though this is part of it) but BEING what gives Our God and Creator Pleasure.
*A garden of flowers need not do anything to make the owner happy other than being itself.

Salvation isn't an escapist idea where a man look forward to a better life but a Restoration to the Original Purpose of Creation (at the final reboot) which is about beautifying the Garden of God.