Tribalism In Belgium - Politics - Nairaland
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| Tribalism In Belgium by ekubear1: 10:13am On Feb 02, 2011 |
PITY the books of Leuven, a seat of learning since 1425. The Dutch humanist Erasmus taught at the university; Mercator, the Flemish cartographer who projected the globe, learnt maths there. But besides intellectual ferment, Leuven has known much cultural vandalism. Some manuscripts were carted to Paris when French revolutionaries closed the university. The library was set ablaze by the Germans in the first world war. It was rebuilt with international (mainly American) help, and burnt again in the second world war. In 1968, though, it was the Belgians themselves who cleft the book collection during their language wars. To Flemish students’ cries of Walen Buiten (“Walloons Out”), the French-speaking bit of the university was ejected. The library’s 1.6m books were divided, often by the crude expedient of keeping odd-numbered tomes in Leuven and sending even-numbered ones to the new campus of Louvain-la-Neuve, in French-speaking Wallonia. The 1968 partition divided the Catholic church (both universities are Catholic) and brought down the government. Belgium’s conservative Catholic party split into Francophone and Flemish halves, followed by the liberals and the socialists. Belgian politics became tribal, with each party championing its own linguistic agenda. Over the years these rows have turned Belgium into a near-ungovernable federation, with powers devolved downwards. The Belgian state has become a hollowed-out shell, with a little-loved flag and a forlorn sovereign, Albert II, who could yet end up as the last king of the Belgians—indeed, the last Belgian. Chronic bickering since the election in June 2010 has left a caretaker government in office for 230 days and counting, a European record. Belgium is on course to beat Iraq’s 289 days without a government. Yet the country has so many layers of administration that daily life goes on. Belgian ministers made a decent fist of their country’s six-month rotating presidency of the European Union in the second half of 2010. Eurocrats in Brussels are only faintly aware of living in a paralysed country. And, despite a few recent wobbles, the bond markets seem largely unconcerned about Belgium’s giant public debt of close to 100% of GDP. It was only on January 23rd that Belgian students organised protest rallies to urge their country’s politicians to get a move on. The world gives little thought to Belgium. Yet it may soon have to pay more attention. As the crisis drags on, a break-up of Belgium looks less unthinkable than it was. The effects would be felt far beyond the fantasy world of Tintin and Magritte’s bowler-hatted men falling from the sky. Paradoxically the slow dissolution of Belgium, the most pro-European of countries, goes hand in hand with the (uneven) deeper integration of the EU. Belgium is facing its worst troubles just as the EU confronts the gravest challenge to the euro. One way of looking at Belgium’s divide is as a counterpart to the EU’s split between a Germanic, frugal north and a subsidy-dependent Latin south. Financial markets stand ready to dump Belgian bonds at any hint of formal partition, because of uncertainty over who would repay the country’s debts. But, for the moment, the euro gives all parties the luxury of intransigence. Without it, the stalemate might have triggered a run on the Belgian franc. Today’s blockage is unlike previous ones in that an avowedly separatist party, the New Flemish Alliance (N-VA), has for the first time become dominant in Flanders. Led by Bart de Wever, a charismatic bruiser, the N-VA’s appeal stems precisely from popular exasperation with the messy, unsatisfying compromises of the older political groups. It wants a decisive shift of powers to Flanders, and makes little secret of its wish to see Belgium “evaporate” within the EU. Danny Pieters, the N-VA president of the Belgian Senate, says he sees no need for a Flemish army: one day Belgian forces will be part of a European one. For the N-VA, Europe is the acid that will help to dissolve Belgium. Strangely, perhaps, this same erosion of sovereignty is seen as an antidote to violent nationalism. European integration overcame the historic enmity between France and Germany. Ireland’s entry into the EU helped to end the worst of Northern Ireland’s sectarian war. In the Balkans, the EU offers the balm of membership to heal the trauma of the Yugoslav wars. But is this not all romantic nonsense when Belgium, a founder of the EU as well as the host to its capital, struggles to hold together? No, says Mark Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank. By “taking the gun out of politics”, the EU has contradictory effects. It makes it easier to draw violent groups into politics; but it also allows peaceful nationalists to act up, and voters to support them, because there is no danger of bloodshed. Put the carving knife away This does not mean that Belgium can dissect itself without anybody worrying. Spain and Italy would not be the only places to fret about the precedent of rich regions pulling away from poorer ones. Scottish nationalists speak of independence within Europe. Many ex-communist countries have big national minorities: think of Hungarians in Slovakia. Redraw Belgium and break the mystique of European tolerance—and one creates doubts across much of the EU’s eastern swathe. Changing national borders only rarely resolves nationalist and ethnic disputes. Where communities overlap, tolerance, minority rights, autonomy and cross-border co-operation are better democratic tools. Take Brussels. If Flanders breaks away from Belgium, could Brussels, officially bilingual but overwhelmingly Francophone, leave Flanders? Indeed, this conundrum offers the best hope that, in the end, Flemings and Walloons will live together somehow. Splitting a city is harder than breaking up a university—luckily for Belgium, and perhaps for Europe. http://www.economist.com/node/18008272 |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 8:12pm On Feb 06, 2011 |
Op Strangely, perhaps, this same erosion of sovereignty is seen as an antidote to violent nationalism. European integration overcame the historic enmity between France and Germany. Ireland’s entry into the EU helped to end the worst of Northern Ireland’s sectarian war. In the Balkans, the EU offers the balm of membership to heal the trauma of the Yugoslav wars. But is this not all romantic nonsense when Belgium, a founder of the EU as well as the host to its capital, struggles to hold together? No, says Mark Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank. By “taking the gun out of politics”, the EU has contradictory effects. It makes it easier to draw violent groups into politics; but it also allows peaceful nationalists to act up, and voters to support them, because there is no danger of bloodshed. @Op On the bolded above^, it's rather romantic and optimistic given the reality in France/Corsica, Spain/ETA, Northern Ireland/IRA & Loyalists, the so-called confederation of independent states/Russia, the festering crisis in the former Yugoslavia(Serbia/kosovo/Albania, Turkey/Greece(divided Cyprus),etc. The gun/violence has not been taken out of European tribal crises. There's the insidious and inherent prejudice by the northern Tribes of Europe, notably Germany and the Scandinavians of their Latin or 'lazy', 'feckless' and 'corrupt' southern Europeans/ tribes, especially the Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, Portuguese and the French who are the prime culprits in Belgium, just like their fellow tribalists of Quebec/Canada. Tribal/ethnic 'politics' is not unique/peculiar to Africa, the rest of the world can actually learn a thing or two from Africa despite the inherent structural constraints  . |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 8:33pm On Feb 06, 2011 |
Strangely, perhaps, this same erosion of sovereignty is seen as an antidote to violent nationalism. Maybe that is what we need in Africa. Can Pan-Africanism solve the ethnic, nationalist, sectarian divide we often see here? dunno. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 9:21pm On Feb 06, 2011 |
kilode?! Maybe that is what we need in Africa. Can Pan-Africanism solve the ethnic, nationalist, sectarian divide we often see here? dunno. @kilode?! Pan-Africanism as I understand it cannot solve any of the above bolded^. I don't think Pan-Africanism precludes 'nationalist' or 'ethnic' self determination, given prevailing/unfolding tendencies - e.g. in the Sudan, Congo DRC, Ethiopia, South Africa and Nigeria.etc. Pan-Africanism in my humble opinion is an incomplete/unfinished idealistic concept/idea most good natured Africans will desire for different reasons etc. The reality of our Africa of today is different and perhaps sad. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Tsiya(m): 9:45pm On Feb 06, 2011 |
Belgium is a country divided. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 10:17pm On Feb 06, 2011 |
cheikh: Seems it's working for them in Europe. I know it's not exactly the same concept, but "Pan-Europeanism" as exemplified by the EU, seem like a check against extreme nationalism or extreme ethnic-ism, despite this Belgium problem. I do agree with you though that the reality in Africa is different. The various ethnic groups within African Nations seem more fragmented. Their cultural differences and languages less articulated and more disorganized probably due to the effects of European imperialism and the way they cut African Nations up. It's interesting to see these same tribal issues in Europe. They ain't all that different after all. It wants a decisive shift of powers to Flanders, and makes little secret of its wish to see Belgium “evaporate” within the EU. Danny Pieters, the N-VA president of the Belgian Senate, says he sees no need for a Flemish army: one day Belgian forces will be part of a European one. For the N-VA, Europe is the acid that will help to dissolve Belgium. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by ekubear1: 1:30am On Feb 07, 2011 |
Hrm, interesting comments. And yes I agree, white tribalists can definetly give African ones a run for their money  I've wondered, why is northern Europe so much wealthier than southern Europe? There was a time when the southern countries (and regions of each country) were dominant, even as of 200-300 years ago, no? How and why did they get surpassed so quickly? |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 1:55am On Feb 07, 2011 |
kilode?! "Pan-Europeanism" as exemplified by the EU, seem like a check against extreme nationalism or extreme ethnic-ism, despite this Belgium problem. @kilode?! I dont't think "Pan-Europeanism" as exemplified by the[b] EU[/b] put a stop/ check against extremism or rabid nationalism/tribalism etc amongst Europeans. It's more like a 'balance of terror' akin to the old 'East/West' era geopolitics. There's a common general awareness of each other's tribal strengths/weaknesses. Economic realities instead of mere tribal sentiments/affiliation have conspired to over-ride or subsume 'primitive'/ primordial tendencies. 'Education' in the European context can be said to have benefitted the people immensely. Africa or more specifically Nigeria have never had the opportunity or luxury of proper education conducive/appropriate for nation building let alone adequate enough to function amongst comity of nations. The various ethnic nationalities of Nigeria may have 'national' culture but do we really have a 'National' culture/language or vocabulary that is identifiable? I believe it can be constructed if we are really serious about 'nation' building. Presently., it's profitable and less intellectually tasking to continue in our quasi-illiterate ways especially the ruling elite. Our educational system have not been scrutinised/analysed thoroughly. Late Tai Solarin came close to drawing attention to it, but as usual the ruling elite do not want to engage in intellectual discourse let alone action. The ruling elite do not understand the full concept of Education as a tool for National cohesion etc. If they did, they'll not be proud to allow their children to school in Ghana and other places besides Nigeria. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 4:23am On Feb 07, 2011 |
eku bear I've wondered, why is northern Europe so much wealthier than southern Europe? @eku bear Yes, you are right that they were dominant some hundreds of years back but it was wealth based on 'lootocracy'/ imperialism not wholly on equal trade terms with the natives they encounted. The Spaniards were notorious for their terrible acts of vandalism and destruction in the new world and the Phillipines(Asia) which they later sold to the Americans. They did not develope/invest appropriately at home instead they invested in pompous grand monuments/palaces by their feudal rulers. The southern tribes of Europe are of Catholic temperament, beliefs/disposition- full of ritual and pomposity and superstition. They are opposite of the northern tribes in values and attitudes as reflected in their 'heavy' handcrafts/work and architecture etc.They are pompous and 'showy' as demonstrated in grand public displays of power and conspicuous consumption and festivities. It's not by chance that much of the grand palaces & historical monuments in Europe are in the 'southern'/'Catholic' part of Europe- Palaces in France(Versailles), Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece etc . They all have very long lunch breaks and good time keeping,hard work/thrift are not exactly celebrated but sneered on. Pompous display of wealth/power is very much acceptable as evidenced in their national tolerance for frivolous behaviour a la Sarkozy&wife/mistress, Berlussconi(italy), Greece etc. You rarely hear of such behaviour amongst the northern tribes/elite. In Nigerian parlance, the southern tribes can be described as "they know how to enjoy life" albeit their natural penchant for corruption/tax avoidance and 'relaxed' attitude to work. The culture/values of the northern tribes of Europe are different from their southern tribal brethren. They are of Protestant/Calvinist beliefs and values. Their work ethic is far removed from those of the south. They are a 'hardy' aggressive bunch, scandinavians( Vikings) and militaristic Prussians(Germans). Hard work and simplicity/thrift was celebrated and emphasised in every aspect of their personal and national life. They dominated Europe in trade/ to the Baltic i.e. Russia. They are not given to 'showy' pompous behaviour/attitudes as demonstrated in their simple, very functional and attractive handwork/crafts and architecture. Perhaps, they are creatures of their own cold/ harsh environment and history. Much of the technical developments that affected and enriched their lives /the rest of Europe were developed/popularised in Northern Europe e.g. the printing press(Martin Luther/Germany), Auto-vehicle/Germany, dynamite/mining Sweden(Nobel), Xray/Marie Curie(Polish)etc. I think Calvinist/Protestant values informs much of their way of life, ethics in industry, education, play and welfare etc. With a variety of other social/technical developments /diffusion of calvinist values/culture of hard work it's only matter of time before they surpassed their feckless southerners who depended much on inherited and looted wealth from colonies in the new world. The attitudes of the southern feudal lords were no different from our uncaring quasi feudal ruling elite in Africa. Welfare of society/citizens was never part of national aspiration earlier until later in southern Europe. They are a narcissistic lot the southern tribes . The northern tribes believed in Meritocracy, Handwork, Thrift, intellectual liberalism/enquiry and quasi egalitarian sense of welfare for citizens. They invested wisely and in country. There are other factors beyond the general common sense observation of the differences between northern/southern tribes of Europe which we can't delve into here due to time/space constraints. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 5:22pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
cheikh: This is just fresh air bro! and you are not alone too. I've argued this more than once on NL. Although I usually argue for a broader cultural revolution, I will take a broad culture-based educational revival over the status quo. Unfortunately, those with the power to change direction are largely in the elite, and it's not in their interest to remove the status quo for now. They and their kids go to school in the West afterall. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by EzeUche2(m): 5:29pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
I have always stated that countries should split linguistically. That is the easiest way. The Flemish people do not see eye to eye with the French speaking people of Belgium, so I can understand why both groups would want to go their separate ways. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by SEFAGO(m): 5:36pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
^ Hmm, there is strength in our diversity, and drawing up one monolithic culture or national identity is not even remotely possible except all the igbos and hausas decide to start speaking yoruba and eating pounded yam from my own point of view. Comprenez-vous? I think we should keep our culture, keep our identity, keep our traditions, they are unique and beautiful in their own rights. But we should also de-emphasize cultural and ethnic relations, we should encourage inter ethnic marriage, teaching kids about the cultures of other ethnic groups, and trying to emphasize that an individual should be judged and given positions based on merit and character as opposed to their ethnic affiliations. Moreover, the Belgian problem- Flemish vs Frenchies is not really a tribal problem. Moreover, i was talking to this Belgian chick a few days ago and she was saying that the younger generation in belgium don't care too much about this crap.
LOl, I just finished reading your posts and we are essentially saying teh same thing. Nevertheless, I am still keeping my post because it took me sometime to write. But I agree. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by SEFAGO(m): 5:37pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
I have always stated that countries should split linguistically. That is the easiest way. The Flemish people do not see eye to eye with the French speaking people of Belgium, so I can understand why both groups would want to go their separate ways. yeah right, so that you can use this as a precedence and evidence for why you should leave sebi? Dream on |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by EzeUche2(m): 5:43pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
SEFAGO: More people speak Hausa than both Igbo and Yoruba combined in this world. It is like a lingua franca for most of West Africa. Go to any West African state and you will find a group of people who know Hausa, even though they may not even be Hausa. That is why they have a BBC Hausa. Force dans la diversite? Je ne crois pas que c'est le cas pour le Nigeria. Continuez a rever. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 5:44pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
SEFAGO: LOL, yea the more the merrier, we need to drown the pessimist nay sayers out! I so agree with your words in bold. I'm willing to compromise by learning Igbo, and allowing my kids to speak Hausa. If Igbo traders in China can learn Mandarin, I can definitely learn Ibibio. I think most people think a cultural revolution will divide Nigeria and they see our English and European system as a unifying factor. I ask at what cost though? We are as suspicious of each other as we were before 1914 and less proud of who we are. I want a change. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by EzeUche2(m): 5:44pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
SEFAGO: Vous me donnez trop de credit. lol We Igbos will have our country one day. It is only a matter of time. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by EzeUche2(m): 5:46pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
Leur sont des fous sur Nairaland. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 5:52pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
^ well the "sane" ones are currently ruling Nigeria shey? |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by EzeUche2(m): 5:55pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
Kilode?!: You do have a point. Glad someone was able to understand. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 6:04pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
^^My Nigerian brotha, n'est-ce pas une honte que nous parlons entre eux en français ? I think it's unfortunate we are communicating in French, when Igbo or Yoruba dey there  You must be ready to worship at my Ogun shrine though, at least once a week. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by ekubear1: 6:15pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
I like the spirit of brotherhood shown here in the last few posts. . . but I'm not sure that they are good arguments for why Nigeria should remain one. Who specifically is worse off if Nigeria divides? The problem I have with some of you optimists is that of the following three scenarios: A) Current Nigeria B) A strongly federalist Nigeria that is well-run C) Several new states You are somehow imagining that option B has more than a 5% chance of happening. Yes, B would be the best option, but given that it probably will not happen, why not explore option C, which is nearly as good (and certainly superior to Nigeria right now)? |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by ezeagu(m): 7:35pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
I've been talking about dominant culture for too long on this forum. No one has named a country that has formed a successful nation with more than one dominant culture, Nigeria is talking about three, going on to five. For the EU, the countries in the EU still have their own sovereignty and can leave the EU if they want. It's not really the same thing as a United States of Africa, unless the US of Africa will give nations sovereignty. Maybe the people looking at the EU should calculate what would happen if all the nations of the EU came into one country called the European Union without their independence. Europe already had a Nigeria, and it was more relevant than Belgium, it was called Yugoslavia. Everything from the corrupt leaders to the false forced nationalism and even the war was there. Look at the quality of living in the 'tiny' countries that came out of it now. No useless 'Southern Yugoslavia' there. eku_bear: Ethnic groups that are made up of one village. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by Kilode1: 8:16pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
eku_bear: A: Absolute nonsense, not working, it's foolish to continue with it, needs remodeling. B: It can work, but it will take a benevolent, almost dictatorial leadership to jump start it and ensure it's sustained. C: Do you mean (i)a confederation of nation states? Sovereign states within a Nigerian confederacy, different presidents, bound together by shared history, common but limited constitution/treaty with a few shared institutions I.e(military defense, money and foreign policy)? OR (ii) just states within present Nigeria with a common binding constitution, one president, same centrally controlled government like we already have? I like c(i) it will be Revolutionary, I'll prefer that. It can work if the will is there. But the treaty must protect smaller ethnicities within each larger states e.g Yorubas cannot subjugate Itshekiris within their Sovereign state. Else other states are obligated to defend itshekiris. |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 10:41pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
EzeUche I have always stated that countries should split linguistically. That is the easiest way. The Flemish people do not see eye to eye with the French speaking people of Belgium, so I can understand why both groups would want to go their separate ways. @EzeUche I thought most states in Nigeria are 'semi-autonomous'/ 'Ethnic'/tribe' or 'nationally'/ linguistically based e.g. the South-West states, some South East states, Bayelsa state and majority of the Northern states. If that's the case for/ sole reason to break Naija, then it's pretty obvious that we have not sincerely located/identified what our problems are as a people. Are the states not able to develop independently now? Are the Governors/Administrators of the various states in Nigeria 'foreigners or strangers'? What is it about us as Africans/Nigerians, that we are always looking for excuses for our Inertia and inability to find solutions to local problems. It appears that there's absence of (Creativity)/ability for/critical thinking? I very much doubt if every village was made a 'state'/'country', our perceived problems will vanish if the current state of affairs in the various Nigeria states/local governments is our guide. The easiest way to achieve the objective of 'separation' is for local governments/states to perform 'miracles' or live up to good expectation/ attain their stated goals. Don't you think so? what will be different if they're called/seen as a different country besides the rituals of nationhood? |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 11:24pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
SEFAGO I think we should keep our culture, keep our identity, keep our traditions, [/b]they are unique and beautiful in their own rights. @SEFAGO You think we should keep our culture, identity and traditions yet you also want us to de-emphasise cultural & ethnic relations. Is it not a contradiction or a little confusing? Culture is what makes every being [b]Whole or else it's disaster in waiting. You cannot de-emphasise who you are . Awareness, Sensitivity and Respect should be the key attributes of a truly 'educated' Nigerian/person so culture/identity [/b]is at the heart of the 'Education' agenda for [b]National Affirmation. The bolded in your quote means that the Nigerian educational system is lacking in its 'mission' and may never achieve that lofty goal because the ruling 'elite' somehow do not appreciate the full concept of 'Nation' building and the role/place of 'Proper' 'Education' in the work in progress called Nigeria.  |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 11:45pm On Feb 07, 2011 |
kilode?! Unfortunately, those with the power to change direction are largely in the elite, and it's not in their interest to remove the status quo for now. They and their kids go to school in the West afterall. @kilode?! You are very correct, and the power mongers are clueless about the consequences of their ineptitude and small mindedness. Their kids going to school in the West or outside of Nigeria, makes their condition even more tragic and pitiable  . |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by cheikh: 11:12pm On Feb 09, 2011 |
Chronic bickering since the election in June 2010 has left a caretaker government in office for 230 days and counting, a European record. Belgium is on course to beat Iraq’s 289 days without a government. Yet the country has so many layers of administration that daily life goes on. Belgian ministers made a decent fist of their country’s six-month rotating presidency of the European Union in the second half of 2010. Eurocrats in Brussels are only faintly aware of living in a paralysed country. And, despite a few recent wobbles, the bond markets seem largely unconcerned about Belgium’s giant public debt of close to 100% of GDP. It was only on January 23rd that Belgian students organised protest rallies to urge their country’s politicians to get a move on. @Op There's a report today that a female Belgium politician has told MPs' wives to ban sex/withhold sexual 'favours' until the country forms a government; Spouses should "keep their legs crossed" said Senator Marleen Temmerman, to bring an end to the deadlock that has lasted 240 days. "It worked in Kenya - a week after wives stopped having sex, a deal was on the table," said Ms Temmerman, a qualified gynaecologist Well, Africa does have novel ways of solving political problems the rest of the world and indeed most Africans are yet to acknowledge/appreciate enough, just like the Belgium waring tribes are learning a valuable lesson about African sense of 'Compromise' and the inherent power of the 'Woman' in every sphere of life . Africa is Great |
| Re: Tribalism In Belgium by ekubear1: 11:26pm On Feb 09, 2011 |
^-- lol |
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