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God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by LordTheus(m): 6:11am On May 21, 2021
Tamaratonye1:

begin sarcasm


You can’t possibly understand Godhead85; Insight is the driver of faith and wonder a universal constant. The universe is bursting with expanding wave functions that vibrate the meridians of consciousness in the quantum infinite. As human beings we can no longer afford to live in stagnation. The nexus is electrified with four-dimensional superstructures and planet is buzzing with morphogenetic fields. Nothing is impossible. The seeds of complexity can free your mind from bondage. We are the mere travelers of this world. We are the warriers of totality. Life is a vector of cosmic will. And our will is a product of consciousness which consists of electrical impulses of quantum energy and the “Quantum” is a summoning of the spiritual.

How is this not completely obvious? tongue

end sarcasm
Not Enough Capitalization Of Words
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by Dtruthspeaker: 8:33am On May 21, 2021
GodHead85:


Alright, I'll put it like this:

I've purposely avoided your posts on this forum because I've observed that you're a dogmatic, unreasoning fanatic.

In other words you can not out-reason me for my reasoning is plain and out there for all to see and examine and challenge.

But because you can not Reasonably Proceed after a bit of contention and Neither can you Cheat nor make Unlawful Manoeuvres, you were shocked that Suddenly you ran out of Valid Bullets meanwhile you are lying fatally wounded on the floor, with me standing over you and ready to shoot some more.

Meanwhile, you have run out of valid Ammo!


You atheist upheld good and proper thinking against those who call themselves Christians and they fell to your swords, So You have no Valid Right to Complain, now that it is being done to you!

GodHead85:

I only felt the need to quote you because I truly wanted to know your meaning of "lying theory" and "womb man"

You thought you could make me fall because of what I said but now it is you who fell and I still remain standing and waiting to be Validly and Correctly Challenged.

GodHead85:

Just because you believe that your writing was "plain English" does not mean it actually is.

In school, teachers teach in "plain English" and if a child did not understand, HE ASKED QUESTIONS!

QUESTIONS CLEAR AMBIGUITY AND GIVE ACCURACY TO ANSWERS!


if you do not reveal the particulars of failure to understand, how do I address.

No Teacher will be happy to Repeat his Lecture all over again, especially me, I would never say anything different from what I have said earlier, so I directed specific questions to specific issues contained in my lecture.

GodHead85:

I merely requested that you make yourself clear. Your vague sophistry is wearying and tiresome. A lot of what you post on this forum has little to no actual meaning.

They are not vague, they are very clear but because you Nigerians are Accustomed to "Spoon Feeding Teaching approach", which is "Manipulation of Soul aka Brain Washing", you therefore complain when you are taught to think for yourselves and think feeely

My students do that and always do it year in year out, but after my first lecture, they are surprised and amazed how free they are and how free they should be and how they have been in "Bonds" and "enslaved" to the thinkings done by others, as if they too do not have a Right to think Also.

Or that they too do not have a Right to Think and Come up with a Brilliant Idea also.

Or that they do not have a Right to Query what they have been thought, Exactly as you said, "Most atheists are skeptics, we question everything and do not take anything just because.

And now you really do not have questions, which is what you are Shocked about my responses

My Answers are Always "Think about this" and if you have any question, Ask"!


You have the Right to Think, so think and think properly.

GodHead85:

You engage in deliberate obfuscation of issues, you use capital letters in a senseless manner, lacking any context, and worst of all, when asked to be more clear and articulate in your presentation, you become patronising, arrogant, condescending, hateful and insultive.

I Freely make my Point and you get it, that is the point of communication. The pain you suffer from my points is because of the destruction of your former solid ground which you Truly thought was indestructible.

And they are destroyed because They Are Not True, as you Already Know that, that which is True, is Indestructible.

But you thought your ground was True, but now I have come to destroy it, and you complain because it is Truly Destroyed!


GodHead85:

You use a lot of deepities and vague assertions that are supported by you and you alone.

Shall I who advocate for people to think freely and properly, not do so to myself?

I was hell to my parents and teachers because I would not accept anything that is not properly established and explained exactly as they confidently taught me Additions, Subtractions etc which I Saw is True Everywhere, which later taught me a thing is True if you see it in Nature and Nature is Everywhere.

And not like the Lies of "Square Root" and co which I have never seen anywhere and no one else has seen it.

Truth is in Nature and it is Proven by Nature itself and Nature does not allow Lies to Stand, So there is No Standing Lie in Nature. None at All!

GodHead85:

I dare you to mention any other Christian on this website that asserts your principles as true.

My Strength is in the Great Knowledge of Laws and Lawyers here ought to back me up for they know where the things i say come from but they fled, which I know is because they did not know and neither were we taught that the Practice of Law is "Work Directly From God's Own Office under His Eyes" which they real-eyes from my Answers and Presentation of Law.

And they real-eyes that they really do not want to work Near God, so they have all generally fled from religions discussions or even showing here that they are Lawyers.

But I have only one, Truespeak, A Lawyer too, but people like to think that she is me and that it is my alternate account, even when our approach to an issue is different and we land on the same floor but from different directions.

GodHead85:

You left me stumped alright, because I have never seen a more deluded nutcase in my entire life on this website. It's ok if you think you "won". Apparently "winning" is the aim here, and not having a proper meaningful conversation. Alright bro, you got me Lmao grin

This Always happens when you stand on a Lie and it is broken from under your feet.

And I need to knock you down for you and all to know that the ground you stand on is a Lie and and that Truth has come to Break The Lie Away, as it Usually Does when it Comes.

So the "Win" belongs to Truth and to you for now, you know that you were standing on a Lie, which you ought to be happy with, exactly as when you are shown that the vehicle you are travelling with is about to go up in flames and you see the smoke rising out!

GodHead85:

I just take solace in the fact that everybody that reads these threads is not as mentally hampered as you.
They'll have their own impressions of our correspondence on this thread

That's all I ask, "Do you own thinking and not some other persons remote control". Do your own thinking and make your own mistakes SO THAT YOU SEE THAT WHICH IS TRUE!

GodHead85:

The only reason any atheist bothers engaging with you here is because more competent, more capable and more intelligible apologists are no longer present on this board.

I believe that those who call themselves Christians are Truly Examining their Christianity because of Truth, which is why they are not available to argue with you because they would have 2 groups of opponents to fight against,

1) Satan and his many offices eg, Satanists, Atheists, JWs, Occults etc

2).Christ Followers who are keeping their eyes on Truth.

Instead of 1, Satan and his many many offices.

GodHead85:

Yes, you're not even up to scratch when it comes to defending your god.

Do you remember you said up "Apparently "winning" is the aim here"!

So in the light of what you have said up here, you reasonably expect that "winning", which is Complete and Proper Defence of God should not be on the table? Yes, cunny man die, cunny man kill am! You try!

Also, Not one of you is able to validly out manoeuvre me or beat me, which none of you can never do because NO MATTER HOW STRONG A LIE IS, TRUTH WILL ALWAYS DASH IT TO PIECES!

GodHead85:

You are hands down the most brain dead Christian poster to comment on this forum since it's inception.

I've been on here longer than you may know, and truly I haven't seen any as clueless, delusional, deceitful and unintelligent as you.

And here arrives the Normal and Regular Insults of A Loser! grin

GodHead85:

Have fun with your weird beliefs and convictions. But i have to tell you the truth and that truth is you make Christianity look repulsive. Keep to your beliefs and I'll keep to mine. smiley

Sayonara! wink

And here is the Fleeing Gifted Insult of A Satan-son as I told you "All Atheists are Simply Satan's Employees and Agent"
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by GodHead85: 8:36am On May 21, 2021
^^^Look at him sucking his own diick. SMH
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by Dtruthspeaker: 8:50am On May 21, 2021
GodHead85:

This is just an illustration of the craziness and eccentricity of your beliefs that makes you look like an unhinged animal in the eyes of any normal thinking human being .

Your "belief" crosses a line. Your "belief" could be racist in nature - but alas, it is targeted to women. Same shit, different pile.

It is a claim without evidence; hurtful, hateful, degrading, disrespecting and a peek into the shallow thinking of your perverted mind. As I said earlier, you make Christianity look repulsive.

I wonder where your hollow, belittling misogyny is accepted in any advanced and enlightened society .

I rest my case.

Yet Everyone man, Every where in the world from the generation to generation, century to century, country to country, up till tomorrow, disregard, scorn, and a put women away from among their members, EVEN YOU DID THE SAME AND DO THE SAME AND WILL STILL DO SO TODAY AND TOMORROW, UNTIL YOU DIE!

So, you are just speaking emptiness and used the opportunity to hurl insults because of the Loss You Suffered at my hands!
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by Dtruthspeaker: 9:10am On May 21, 2021
GodHead85:
^^^Look at him sucking his own diick. SMH

Exactly what Losers say to A Winner!
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by Dtruthspeaker: 11:34am On May 21, 2021
Tamaratonye1:
I would implore you to not misconstrue my words. I am an atheist. Gods are merely an idea, a complex concept. That’s my consistent and freely given testimony.

And this what you do not understand!
Red Highlight: when you leave your house and come out to say "Gods are merely an idea, a complex concept" you raise it up for examination, comments, queries and challenge as the Op did, which is why you could legitimately challenging her on her post and her thread.

If she loved the opinion so much, she should not bring it "outside". But she does, it is liable to be challenged. For when a person offers their thing to the public, it must be A Good and True Thing! And not a wicked thing or Lies!

That is what God has Done Through The Law!

Green Highlight is your Nature Given Right which of course I am not challenging!

Tamaratonye1:

Don’t misconstrue my words if I seem to be conferring attributes or abilities to any god.

Did you not attempt to Use the Bible Against me?

Because of The Law, "You have the Natural Right to remain Silent, For Whatever you say shall and will be used Against you, Anywhere"

Tamaratonye1:

LOL. Please read my previous post again carefully. The differences I'm talking about are incidentally a function of the " Factory and the Creation Process"

Ok, I missed that because I did not think you would rely on this statement "... I’m no motorhead but if I were considering such a costly investment, yes I would want details on production differences."

Which is a Filthy Lie because No One Purchases a Corrolla or Camry asking for "Factory and the Creation Process"!

Cartalk Section and I will call you a Liar for saying this and thinking to rely on it to make your point. We all purchase the cars on the individual merits of each car themselves. We do not care how much creation time was expended in making the car neither did we ever ask, as long as we know that it is coming from the Creator called, Toyota!

Tamaratonye1:

I understand your explanation about the lower status of women, but I can’t accept the validity of any of it.

Thank you for the understanding and it is the pure exercise of your Nature Given Right to Freely Accept or Reject Anything at all!

Tamaratonye1:

My only response here will be to advise you to Google search "False Dichotomy", "Splitting Fallacy", and/or "Either/or Fallacies", to have a better understanding of the illogic of this post.

grin Yeah! And it's opposite is True Dichotomy! Which my assertion Falls Under! I told you in the past that I wrote the Book on Logic Too!

Tamaratonye1:

I was wondering how long it would take before your usual dishonesty will surface. You have hastily jumped to conclusions and I will attempt to clarify:

Too Late! It is not my fault that you were not aware that "You have the Natural Right to remain Silent, For Whatever you say shall and will be used Against you, Anywhere", As You Yourself Do!

Tamaratonye1:

LOL! I honestly burst out in laughter here. From this “gem” is seems that being skeptical of a claim is proof that it is true!

Again I am not at fault if you did not know "You have the Natural Right to remain Silent, For Whatever you say shall and will be used Against you, Anywhere" , As you yourself do!

Tamaratonye1:

I certainly was, and so was the creation myth in the bible,

Thereby proving the Truth of my statement that we are not talking about "vegetation" as you have clearly admitted but about the origin of man.

So you did not stick to the Issue!

Tamaratonye1:

Humans evolved, that’s an objective fact, the bible, like all books,...

Relitigation and Re-argument! You passed over your opportunity to present your case.

Secondly since you did not Counter-claim, you can not suddenly do so and make yourself "the defendant" now that I have finished defending myself and you could not establish your challenge.

So sit back and wait until the next time an opportunity arises for you to enter the defendant's box!

Tamaratonye1:

LOL. You’d embarrass yourself less if you learned to read, but I’ve emboldened the text from my post that demonstrates you’re either an illiterate or a liar.

What do you think you were doing when you were given the names and dates and persons and countries and times of the Return of Israel to their place in line with the Prophecies?

M'lady, you unwittingly supplied the Evidence and Truth that the Prophecy was indeed Fulfilled! grin

Tamaratonye1:

It’s solid proof you’re an atrocious liar, and don’t have, nor do you care to learn or understand,

grin it is you who supplied the Proofs, I just re-inforced them grin

Now you see that all you supplied was actually against you, so now you cry and complain grin

You should not have spoken or keep your statements extremely short, maybe you would never had helped me make my case in destruction of yours! grin

Tamaratonye1:

You mean by you lying, and dishonestly ignoring the rationale presented, that a message from an omniscient omnipotent deity can’t rationally be expected to contain any errancy, let alone the ubiquitous errancy in the bible and koran?

Thank God, Inspite of your effort to save yourself, you still said the Truth in the highlighted!

Any Statements that is not directly connected to the issue of contention will be and must be ignored by me!

Tamaratonye1:

What I find strange and funny is how desperate you are to latch onto your preconceived bias(es), even going as far as quotemining me dishonestly just to find proof to reinforce these bias(es), or telling bare faced lies.

You and your kind are the ones who are strongly biased and exercising your right to hold a snake rather than a phone, as is your right, as is your right and I do not challenge it unless and until you bring it out for public consumption.

Truth is exactly like the ground under feet, you do not support it, it is rather it that holds you up.

So I break the ground of lies you stand and we all see you fall and shout and curse while you fall! grin

I stand up and I stand out to be Tested and Verified BUT I must tested and verified ON THE ISSUE AND ON THE ISSUE ALONE.

CHANGE OF ISSUES AND RAISING NEW ISSUES AND DEPARTURES ARE NOT ALLOWED.

AND IF YOU BIASED GUYS STICK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND, YOU WILL ALL RUN OUT OF AMMO AND MUST SO RUN OUT, EXACTLY AS HAPPENED TO GODHEAD85 AND OTHERS WHO HAVE PROPERLY CONTENDED WITH ME, BECAUSEE YOU ARE LIARS AND BIASED.

YOU WILL SEE GOD IF YOU FOLLOWED THE ROAD OF TRUTH. BUT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE GOD, YOU GUYS MUST ALWAYS DEVIATE AND DEPART FROM THE ISSUE AT HAND OR RAISE FRESH ISSUES, SO THAT YOU CAN KEEP AWAY FROM ARRIVING AT THE PLACE WHERE TRUTH IS ESTABLISHED AND GOD IS SEEN!

THAT IS THE TRUE PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH ME.

TRUTH, PURE UNDILUTED AND UNCORRUPTED TRUTH IS THE WAY TO GOD, IF YOU ARE TRULY SEEKING TO FIND GOD, WHICH YOU ARE NOT!
Re: God Is Well-suited For A Rational Explanation For Creation by jamesid29(m): 1:36pm On May 21, 2021
Tamaratonye1:

Well attested within biblical studies? LOL. If you don't mind, would you like to buy a bridge on the moon?
For the life of me, I really can't tell what the joke is about or what was taken to be funny in my post. I'm genuinely lost.

Tamaratonye1:

Thanks for pointing out that information. Indeed I have been referring to Friedmann. If you have any references or links I could, hopefully, if I have time, catch up on the latest considerations about Moses, Deuteronomy et al. I don’t claim my knowledge is special, complete or comprehensive.
Firstly, I'll like to say none of us has complete knowledge. We all know in part.... The irony is, the more knowledge one gets, the more one gets to realise that there's so much more one doesn't know. At least that has been my experience and that of those I look up to.

So to the crust of the matter, I'm not sure if you mistook my mention of the Documentary Hypothesis to mean Deuteronomy(or that it's has something to do with it) because it's abit odd that you would switch from the crust of what I was pointing out to focus primarily on Deuteronomy.
Anyway I will work on the assumption that what you meant to ask on was the documentary hypothesis.
Sources for the hypothesis is really not hard to find online, as it was the leading hypothesis for the dating and authorship of the Pentateuch for over a century. A quick Google search should provide you with more than enough resources. Also you would hardly find any modern resource on the hypothesis which would not come with a section on its criticism and why its fallen out of favour in recent times.
Two quick resources that can help situate the field though are:
1) A Brief History of Old Testament Criticism: From Benedict Spinoza to Brevard Childs by Mark S. Gignilliat : The book is a quick overview of the major players and motif of higher criticism from pre Wellhausen and beyond without being overwhelming.
2)The Making of the Pentateuch
by R. N. Whybray: It's a pretty old book but it's still considered one of the exhaustive critique of the documentary hypothesis and it's application to the Pentateuch. Coupling this book with more modern resources would give you a more holistic understanding of higher criticism. It also would be a plus for you to read (I presume) since the author doesn't even take a scriptural or fundamental stand on the Pentateuch.

Anyway, regardless of whatever resources you use, I would like to still point out a couple of things.

Scholarly consensus doesn't mean much, especially when it comes to dating and source criticism.
There are very few smoking guns and most critical analysis are based on preconceived notions and assumptions. Like prof Rolf Rendtorff states
"We possess hardly any reliable criteria for dating pentateuchal literature. Every dating of the pentateuchal "sources" rests on purely hypothetical assumptions which only have any standing through the consensus of scholars.'"

So depending on the preconceived assumptions of the time, the same data can be interpreted one way or another and alot of times one chance archeological discovery can sweep away decades and even centuries of scholarly consensus(This has happened a couple of times even in recent memory).

Secondly, because of the fluidity of assumptions in critical studies, even sophisticated papers fall into what is called by some Pseudo-Historicism. You can read more on the ideas in Dr somers paper
Dating Pentateuchal Texts and the Perils of Pseudo-Historicism - Dr Benjamin Somer: https://www.academia.edu/attachments/25197929/download_file?s=portfolio
This should give you ideas on what to look out for when reading paper on for or against any particular position.

Tamaratonye1:

However, the story about Deuteronomy really begins in 2 Chronicles and 2 Kings where the supposed writings of Moses were serendipitously discovered during renovations of the Temple in Jerusalem. “Deuteronomy” from the Greek means “a repetiton” and it was interpreted as a “second law giving” from Moses.
A bit incorrect, but it's fine

Tamaratonye1:

I’ve read several explanations regarding the arrangement of the various documents outlined in the structure of the book as we know it today, the irregular chronological writing of those documents, some of the earlier parts being written later than the main body, proposed constructions, and the myriad specialised interpretations of the book as a whole. All of them could be partly correct or correct in a general sense, I claim no special special understanding of it to suppose any one claim better than another. However using the Bible itself to explain the circumstances surrounding the discovery and later addition of the newly found Deuteronomy poses a few questions.
Okay

Tamaratonye1:

It was a very fortuitous find by the Levite priests in power at the time. Imagine, the very document that fully accorded with the Levite desire and proscribed methods to save the nation, its people, the Temple, and the priests themselves, from the depredations of the Babylonians through the destruction of the popular rival pagan religions, just happen be found while they were renovating their own temple. The sort of luck modern archaeologists can only dream of. The Levites had, since the removal of the ten tribes of Israel from history, expressed the very real possibility that jealous YHWH might use the Babylonians to repeat the Assyrian outrages. Afterall it was obvious the tribes of Israel were a bad lot.
Actually quite alot of modern archaeological finds(the ones that make the papers and big screens) are usually accidental(luck basically)... Just wanted to point that out

Secondly, the narrative you wrote is very interesting(game of thrones type of interesting) but sadly it's largely incorrect and the geo-political landscape you posited is wrong.
Anyway it's fine.

Tamaratonye1:

And not only did it condemn the worship of foreign gods and goddesses, but the ancient sensuous Canaan ones as well, like the durable agricultural Baal and productive Asherah/Istah who were both full fellow members at council in YHWHs original cosmos. There was no longer any room on the block for his former co=deities even the one was once beleived to be his wife.
Ok so there's alot to unpack here and this is actually an interesting subject area.
First thing is, technically Asherah is a different deity from Ishtar. The cannanite equivalent to the mesopotamian Ishtar is technically Ashtoreth ... but then again, that's neither here nor there anyway.

As for the question of Yahweh and his Asherah in ancient Israelite worship, again things are a bit more complex. The brief gist is, of the 40 times Asherah is mentioned in the Bible, the overwhelming bulk of the time, the name appears with a definite article. Hebrew grammar works like English in the sense that personal names don't appear with the definite article in front of them.
This puts a question of whether Asherah is to be considered a who or a what (at least in ancient Israelite conception).
A very good book that dwells well into the ancient near Eastern understanding of God and gods is
"Dr Benjamin Somer- The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel".... The book is not specifically about Ahshera but it gives the necessary background on how to understand the major motifs that deals with the arguments of how to understand the Yahweh and his Asherah debate.
Other authorities on the subject area are: Dr Erin Darby(her work is mainly on pillar figurines in ancient Israel) and Dr Judith Hadley( "the cult of Asherah in ancient Israel" ) .
You can find resources on both sides of the arguments easily online. I believe "Religion for breakfast" YouTube channel has a quick overview on the debate( Yahweh and his wife)... The channel is managed by an Agnostic scholar(I think) so it should be right up your wheelhouse I presume.

Finally, on the subject of Yahweh and his council, I'm guessing you are refering to the divine council and use of El in the Bible, specifically in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32.
If you are not yet conversant with Dr Michael Heiser's work, I would like to suggest you check some of his works out. He's one of the leading figure on this particular subject area and he has written tons of material on it.
You can check https://drmsh.com/elohim-divine-council-psalm-82-ot-monotheism-archive/ for some of his material (both scholarly and for lay readers).
His book " The Unseen Realm" is also a highly acclaimed read that delves into the subject and how it fits into the larger biblical story.

Anyway, I think it's best to stop here. The idea(at least not mine) is not have drawn out conversation on the topic(wasn't even expecting it to be this long by now. Thought it was going to be a quick reply and all
Your narratives are pretty interesting but just that they are somewhat incorrect in critical areas or at the very least, interesting overspin what of the actual stories say.
Almost every one of us are guilty of this to varying degrees (both consciously and unconsciously) though so it's all good, I guess
In any case, it is well.

Tamaratonye1:

Anyway send me some of those links or references Jamesid29.

Asides from the other references above, I think you might find these more concrete resources useful.
1)The Face of Old Testament Studies: A Survey of Contemporary Approaches by David W. Baker.... it's an informed, well-balanced entry into the excitement of current studies."

2)Old Testament History – Dr. J. Robert Vannoy
https://biblicalelearning.org/old-testament/old-testament-history-vannoy/ .... University level introduction to the old testament history and historical criticism. The site also has many other good lecture series in biblical studies which might be worthwhile to check out.... Dr Walton's lecture series on Job might be worth your while

Both resources above come from Christian scholars but that doesn't affect their validity and balanced view IMHO.

Other interesting Notable Resources
1) Dr Heiser's podcast (" The Naked Bible Podcast" ) : Heiser interacts with alot of scholarly articles and materials on his podcast.It's a good place to get a feel of what the scholarly debates are on many of the fields in biblical studies and a place to find articles that would otherwise be hard to find or even know about except for someone in those circles. His book The Unseen Realm is also a good book to read as mentioned earlier

2) The Bible project YouTube videos (https://youtube.com/c/bibleproject ). A great resource to get condensed (very short 5-8minutes) videos of major biblical motifs and themes that are easy to watch but are well grounded in real biblical scholarship. The accompanying podcast series delve deeper into the videos and are very solid in my opinion (https://bibleproject.com/podcasts/the-bible-project-podcast/)

Another Notable Mention
1) Dominion - The making of the western mind by Tom Holland ... Tom is an Agnostic but is one of the best historians of classical and medieval history and his book is a great addition for anyone who wants to understand where our culture and values of today come from.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth, hope this helps.
Enjoy your weekend ma'am.

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