Image123:

@InesQor
Believers are not commoners, they are kings and priests. It's not coincidence that kings were told not to take wine(alcoholic from the context)

Sorry how does this apply here? We are talking about the TIMES of Jesus, you are replying about "believers are not commoners". What's the correlation? Please let's stick to the issue here. Did Jesus drink Alcohol? Jesus who was called a wine-bibber, and in a derogatory sense! You know what that word means in contemporary English? Someone who is known to take a lot of alcohol although moderately (i.e. very frequent but moderate in consumption). That's what it means.

A similar injunction went also to the priests.

See above

You may notice that the priests' was scheduled unlike the kings' which was for all time. the priests had a rotated order of ministering. All those on duty had to obey this. If we're to draw anything from here for present day believers, our lives are not in shifts like the priests. We are a living all time reasonable sacrifice. We are always ministering with our high priests. And another thing is that we are the tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, always. The implications of that are best revealed by God Himself.

Ditto

Good research work here. Atleast, i didn't have to say it first that fermented wine had to be heavily diluted before the people took it. Unfermented wine was also preserved to an extent. You may research on that as well. i think it was alluded to when Jesus talked about new wine in new bottles.

Osanobua baba Obiemven! 
How is unfermented wine kept? Wine is KEPT [/b]by [i][b]fermenting [/i]it.

New wine? New wine means wine collected in the first stage of fermentation, which began some six to twelve hours after pressing began in the lower vat (there was often an upper and a lower vat connected by a channel).

New wine is the wine that is made to ferment INSIDE the wineskin during storage instead of letting it ferment in the vat before storage. That's all! Both are equally alcoholic. In fact, after a few days, new wine is far more alcoholic than old wine is, thanks to the continuous action in the wineskin. THAT is why the pentecostal disciples were jibed to be drunk with new wine. It is HOTTER stuff.

Both are alcoholic
Hosea 4:11  Whoredom and wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart. (KJV)

i guess you mean wine here at the bolded. Generally unsafe to take water? where is that one/place? And fruit juice is more dangerous? commonnn. Everybody has been taking fruits from Adam. The juice, the liquid of the fruit is the fruit juice i refer to, not the processed 'chi's that we call fruit juice today. Any Jew, even the poor could go into any field and pluck fruits, it was not an exclusive of the rich. Fresh fruit juice need no refrigeration, and i think it's even healthier than the old one. Commoners won't take fruitjuice?commonn are you kidding? i'm not talking of 5alive and all these stuff at the malls and supermarket, i'm talking of collecting grapes, or figs or oranges mango whatever fruit, and taking the juice from it.

Mehn Image123 this one had me gawking when I read it.

You think I meant 5alive? 

When is the fruit (grapes) season? Is it all year round? Not at all. So how will they make fresh fruit juice all year round?  From the fruits preserved from last harvest by drying them in the sun? How do you make fruit JUICE from hard and sun-dried fruits? Commoners can't get fruitjuice, I said, because the ONLY WAY to keep a fruit through months is by a sugar glace. Only Kings can afford to soak fruits in sugar to preserve them, I presume. COMMONERS like Jesus and his family and friends would sun-dry whatever they wanted to keep, and that's the fact! Sun-dried fruits won't make any juice, sorry. Boiling?? You're kidding right? What happens after you boil a fruit? Doesn't it get bad faster?

The idea is that if you put new wine in old bottles, the old bottle would contain yeast that would startup/accelerate fermentation. The gas and other effects would damage the bottle and waste the wine. But with new wine in new bottles, both were PRESERVED. Like i said, please research on preservation of new wine.

Na wa o. You didn't even see your own contradiction here.

Ask, why does the new wine burst the old wineskin? Because it still has a lot of ENERGY, but the old wineskin is stiff (it has expanded already and has reached its own limit). Where does that [b]energy [/b]in the wine come from? From its expansion which is due to the ongoing fermentation process! It has nothing to do with "yeast present in the bottle". No, man!! Jesus' point was that if you put new wine in a new wineskin, BOTH would expand together. As the new wine ferments, the wineskin expands too so that BOTH are preserved. Preserved. . . the new wine is preserved by being fermented!

Even Wikipedia got it right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wine_into_Old_Wineskins

The metaphors in the two parables were drawn from contemporary culture.[3] New cloth had not yet shrunk, so that using new cloth to patch older clothing would result in a tear as it began to shrink.[4] Similarly, old wineskins had been "stretched to the limit"[4] or become brittle[3] as wine had fermented inside them; using them again therefore risked bursting them.[4]
The two parables relate to the relationship between Jesus' teaching and traditional Judaism.[3]

Do you see that you have, as aletheia said, twisted the meaning of this scripture here?

Thank God your case is different from those who said 'in the light of scriptures, Jesus drank alcohol. So you're still myfriendye     
That's where my 'fight' is. The scriptures tell us that Jesus drank wine, and it's specific to say good wine, or new wine the fruit of the vine.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

To be honest, one of the people I respect most here is viaro, and even HIM, we have had disagreements. This has nothing to do with being friends, bro. The Bible tells and shows clearly that Jesus took alcohol. And not once or twice. MODERATION is the key thing in the Bible concerning alcohol, except you had made a promise to God as per a sign or something, like Nazirites. How does Matthew 26:29 apply now? Isn't Jesus ONLY saying that he will no longer take any alcohol from that day (of the passover, preparing for his own death) onwards until the (new wine of the pentecost in His Father's Kingdom which was coming)? Na wa o. As I said already, even new wine is not fruit juice. Sorry bros.

i addressedthis earlier. here's what i said
Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
The passage is actually a strong point to prove that the early disciples abstained from alcohol. They were being MOCKED, not 'directly accused'. The ridicule/mockery is in the 'new wine', not in being full/drunk. A paraphrase of what they were saying is like 'this disciples of Jesus are just impossible, they're separate and sober unlike others, and still manage to get drunk on new wine". It's like saying someone is drunk after taking his LaCasera, that's mockery (it's not a proof that the drink is alcoholic, but an attempt to ridicule the person maybe for his abstemious lifestyle). What would you have answered if you were Peter? We're not drunk because we don't drink? While that might have been huge for our argument, it'll hold little water to the crowd. They probably knew by the way that they did not drink alcohol, they were mocking them. Peter by the Spirit went for reason/common sense. He said it's just 9am, people don't get drunk by 9am. 1Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

WOW!
Okay this one is shocking. I don't know if you are joking but I will assume you are not. :O They were being mocked because they were "meant to be holy people" but were "acting drunk". Your interpretation is eisegesis, man. The Bible makes it clear that they were acting like drunk people. . . speaking tongues and being so alive in the morning!

i think it's by boiling or something of that nature. i read it a while then. pls, research it for yourself. I'd see if i made notes on it and come back on that though. By the very way, the Jews could not take anything that was fermented/yeasted during passover remember?

Boiling I need references please. Anywhere at all on the internet. Thanks.
No no no no! Kai Image123 na wa o!!! They were told not to take leavened or yeast stuff like bread that had risen, etc. NO MENTION OF WINE my guy. Why are you doing this na?? Don't eat unleavened bread, it said!!

i'll repeat it though, that i've yet to personally meet anyone who drinks alcohol and has never been drunk. Plus, Noah and Lot were the most righteous men in their world and community, they were mocked by wine. Don't wait to be deceived thereby

I drink alcohol, once in a while. I have never been drunk. I still took a can of Smirnoff some days ago. There!!

Jesus' communion with His disciples was of grape juice.

LOL wait do you know that this "fruit of the vine" was being drank at the Passover is alcoholic? Do you know the passover is roughly SEVEN months after the season of the vine? This fruit of the vine. . . that you say is fresh fruit juice. . . where did they get the fresh fruit? Or did they use dry fruits or buy from Five Alive?

See I don't have energy for arguments jare. Maybe we should agree to disagree, but the facts (historically, climatically and Biblically) stare us both in the face of a lot of your  own conjecture.

ETA: Before I go though, some more facts, from the Bible this time.

There are Eight Hebrew words translated Wine in the Bible: Yayin, Tirosh, Chemer, Shekar, Asis, Sob'e, Mamsak, Shemarim and ALL are alcoholic, in various measures of strength. I can show you Bible verses if you want, just let me know.

@InesQor's long response . . .

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gosh, I don laff well today 

Meanwhile if believers are kings and priests why do they need to pay tithes (as the same Image123 argues) instead of collecting it?

Ah, another thought: the time when I still be rascal dey play around inside Unilag grounds e get some baba ẹlẹmu (palm wine tappers) dem wen bin dey come get mint fresh palmy from the trees for yonder; the thing na hẹlẹle (hic). I don't know whether that one too no qualify as new (alcoholic) wine for broda Image123?

JeSoul:

@InesQor's long response . . .

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gosh, I don laff well today 

Lol. At first I was amused. Then angry. Then giggling. Then I frowned as I typed most of that post

@Enigma:
LOL at Baba Elemu. Fresh new palmeeeee!

^Lol. The way you guys have all been dissertating on the ins and out of wine and fermentation and alcoholic drinks - complete with Enigma's anecdotal droplet up there . . . hmm  I comment my reserve .

@Image123:

Na wah O. See what manipulating the scriptures does to your "image" eventually? I would have thought seeing us "pests" showing our man flint up would have let you know that lying, deceit and manipulation have consequences supported by God. Truth for one, always uses deceit to wipe the floor. that post wiped yours all over the world.

Sincerely though, I doubt if Image can tell such lies EXCEPT if he truly believed them. I wager he just didn't have enough information or like many of us have done, he trusted a false source and has never studied this matter himself.

Alcohol is a choice but if gone for, must be controlled

Updates: Valid arguments against my former argument: Another Lengthy Post

So I found out that I am not entirely correct in my previous posts and Image123 is partially correct about non-alcoholic drinks in the OT times and about a possible preservation of fruits like grapes, and so I have a need to update this thread to deal with my previous disinformation to all of you. As I like to say, I am not rigid in my beliefs, I am ever searching and when I find out something new, I drop the old easily and I move on.

Caveat:

[size=14pt]For the record[/size], I still hold the belief that Jesus took alcohol because:
John the Baptist, as a Nazarite, abstained from ALL solid produce of the vine, and from ALL juice of the grape, and that Jesus, not being a Nazarite, was not under the same obligation, and did not so abstain.

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

Jesus was called an Oinopotes, meaning a winebibber, i.e. is a wine drinking alcoholic although that was said by his detractors who wanted to give him a bad name. He even tasted vinegar on the cross, even though he refused to drink it because he told the disciples the previous night that he would have no more wine. Vinegar (Greek, Oxos) is sour wine.

Matt 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
Matt 26: 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Oxos, 1.vinegar a.the mixture of sour wine or vinegar and water which the Roman soldiers were accustomed to drink". Strong's Number: 3690 Oxos - KJV Greek Lexicon

Now to the other matter.

The original Latin is side by side with the English in this ebook. Inquisitive but yet-doubting minds can get a copy here, that's where I downloaded my copy (15Mb): http://depositfiles.com/en/files/1vhuarglg

Author information:
Columella (Lucius Iunius Moderatus) of Gades (Cadiz) lived in the reigns of the first emperors to about 70 CE. He moved early in life to Italy where he owned farms and lived near Rome. It is probable that he did military service in Syria and Cilicia and that he died at Tarentum. Columella's On Agriculture (De Re Rustica) is the most comprehensive, systematic and detailed of Roman agricultural works. Book I covers choice of farming site; water supply; buildings; staff. II: Ploughing; fertilising; care of crops. III, IV, V: Cultivation, grafting and pruning of fruit trees, vines, and olives. VI: Acquisition, breeding, and rearing of oxen, horses, and mules; veterinary medicine. VII: Sheep, goats, pigs, and dogs. VIII: Poultry; fish ponds. IX: Bee-keeping. X (in hexameter poetry): Gardening. XI: Duties of the overseer of a farm; calendar for farm work; more on gardening. XII: Duties of the overseer's wife; manufacture of wines; pickling; preserving. There is also a separate treatise, Trees (De Arboribus), on vines and olives and various trees, perhaps part of an otherwise lost work written before On Agriculture.

Details, details. . . follow. . .

---

I have by now read various sections of a book originally authored by Lucius Iunius Moderatus Columella in the 1st century A.D. Columella, "Columella: On Agriculture and Trees, Volume I, Books I-IV (Loeb Classical Library No. 361). In his treatise On Agriculture and Trees, Columella discusses at great length the various methods used by different people to preserve such produce as lettuce, onions, apples, pears, berries, plums, figs, olives, unfermented grape juice and fermented wine.

The expensive method, like I described was used by royalty and rich upperclass folk, was a glace. The submersion of fruit in liquid honey was viewed as one of the safest methods of preservation, because as Columella remarks, "such is the nature of honey that it checks any corruption and does not allow it to spread." Today we use a similar method when we can fruit in a heavy sugar syrup.

The cheaper method that might be used by commoners like Mary Mother of Jesus was to place the fruit in a barrel between layers of sawdust and when the barrel was full, its lid was carefully sealed with thick clay. And still another method consisted of "dabbing the fruit, when it is fresh, thickly with well-kneaded potter’s clay, and when the clay has dried, hanging it up in a cool place; then, when it is required for use, the fruit should be plunged in water and the clay dissolved. This process keeps the fruit as fresh as if it had only just been picked."

The fact that the ancients knew several methods for preserving grapes fresh until the following vintage suggests that unfermented grape juice could be produced at any time of the year simply by squeezing grapes into a cup. This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature. For example, the Halakat Gedalat, the earliest compendium of the Talmud, says: "One may press out a cluster of grapes and pronounce the kiddush [blessing pronounced at the consecration of the Sabbath or a festival] over the juice, since the juice of the grape is considered wine in connection with the law of the Nazarite."

The apocryphal Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew, a document which circulated in the second and third centuries of the Christian era, attests to the use of freshly pressed juice of grapes in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper: "Bring as an offering the holy bread; and, having pressed three clusters from the vine into a cup, communicate with me, as the Lord Jesus showed us how to offer up when he rose from the dead on the third day."

Last of all, the third Council of Braga (A.D. 675) reports Cyprian’s charge against those "who presented no other wine [vinum] at the sacrament of the Lord’s cup but what they pressed out of the clusters of grapes." It is noteworthy that fresh grape juice is called "wine" (vinum). The charge was not against the use of unfermented grape juice as such, but rather against the failure to mix the grape juice with water.

Problems in Preserving Wine.
Marcus Porcius Cato (234-150 B.C.), who is considered the father of both Latin prose and literature on agriculture, refers to some of the problems related to the preservation of fermented wine. In chapter 148 of his treatise On Agriculture, Cato alludes to such problems when he speaks of the terms "for the sale of wine in jars." One of the conditions was that "only wine which is neither sour nor musty will be sold. Within three days it shall be tasted subject to the decision of an honest man, and if the purchaser fails to have this done, it will be considered tasted; but any delay in the tasting caused by the owner will add as many days to the time allowed the purchaser." The fact that the purchaser was to taste the wine within three days of purchase or take it as it was, shows how quickly wine was subject to turn sour or musty.

Cato prescribes some precautions to prevent wine from becoming sour or musty: "Divide the grapes gathered each day, after cleaning and drying, equally between the jars. If necessary, add to the new wine a fortieth part of must boiled-down from untrod grapes, or a pound and a half of salt to the culleus [a liquid measure]. If you use marble dust, add one pound to the culleus; mix this with must in a vessel and then pour into the jar. If you use resin, pulverize it thoroughly, three pounds to the culleus of must, place it in a basket, and suspend it in the jar of must; shake the basket often so that the resin may dissolve. When you use boiled must or marble dust or resin, stir frequently for twenty days and press down daily."

---

Some other methods of Preserving Grapes:

Columella informs us: "Different methods suit different districts according to the local conditions and the quality of the grapes."

Several methods were used for preserving grapes fresh. One of them consisted in cutting the grapes with lengthy branches and sealing the cut with pitch. The grapes were then placed in vessels filled with dry chaff.
"In order that the grapes may remain green for as much as a year," Columella explains, "you will keep them in the following manner. When you have cut from the vine grapes . . . , immediately treat their pedicles with hard pitch; then fill a new earthenware pan with the driest possible chaff, which has been sifted that it may be free from dust, and put the grapes upon it. Then cover it with another pan and daub it around with clay mixed with chaff, and then, after arranging the pans in a very dry loft, cover them with dry chaff."

Other people, according to Columella, preserved grapes by dipping their pedicles into boiling pitch immediately after they were cut, and then placing them in dishes arranged in different layers within a barrel containing boiled-down must. Instead of must, some people used barley-bran to fill the barrel with alternate strata of bran and grapes. Next they put on the lids and seal them up and store the grapes in a very dry and cool loft.

Similar methods used by other people. "Some people," he says, "after the same method, preserve green grapes in dry sawdust of poplar-wood or fir; others cover up the grapes, which they have picked from the vines when they were not too ripe, in dry flower of gypsum. Others, when they have picked a bunch, cut off with shears any defective grapes in it, and then hang it up in the granary where there is wheat stored below them. But this method causes the grapes to become shrivelled and almost as sweet as raisins."

Pliny, a Roman scholar and naturalist, contemporary of Columella, briefly describes in his Natural History other methods used to preserve grapes: "Some grapes will last all through the winter if the clusters are hung by a string from the ceiling, and others will keep merely in their own natural vigor by being stood in earthenware jars with casks put over them, and packed round with fermenting grape-skins."

---

In summary, it is not a sin to drink wine. It is not a sin to take alcohol. It is not a sin to eat. It is not a sin to play chess. It is not a sin to surf the web or post on Nairaland. BUT it might be a sin depending on how you deal with any of these in your heart and your consequent
actions.

When a man or woman gets drunk, loses their inhibitions and maybe sin against God in the course of their actions; the drink may have helped them to sin, but the drink itself is not a sin. Na you sabi o, if you go shayo and you spoil ground.

But please let us divide the Word of Truth accurately. Taking alcohol in itself is not a sin. We need to learn moderation.

Thought i said you guys should go and research on this or something. Anyway, i get too much strength to argue unfortunately, but i wouldn't. Just please God abeg
@nuclear-i was kidding with the two 'parties' on that 'pest post'. Pls, don't mind me o

Further, the reason I said Image123 is only partially correct, is that he gave many roundabout ways to defend his points. And I also disagree with him that Jesus did not take any alcohol. Where I NOW agree with him is that there WAS non-alcoholic wine in that day, and that it could be generated at any time on demand.

I must say also that times change; and rules tend to change sometimes only due to abuse and neglect.

Once upon a time, anointing oil used by Hebrews even up till Jesus day, used to contain strong doses of cannabis / marijuana. It did not reduce the fact that it was "holy" oil.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis

Anthropologist Sula Benet's evidence was confirmed in 1980 by the Hebrew Institute of Jerusalem[1] that the Holy anointing oil used by the Hebrews to anoint all priests, and later Kings and Prophets, contained cannabis extracts, "kaneh bosm" (קְנֵה-בֹשֶׂם), and that it is listed as an incense tree in the original Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. [2][3] The Unction, Seal, laying on of hands, the Counselor, and the Holy Spirit are all often synonymous with the Holy anointing oil.[4] Early Gnostic texts indicate that the Chrism is essential to becoming a Christian.[5][6] Some Muslims of the Sufi order have used cannabis as a tool for spiritual exploration.

No be mistake o eh. . .

@Image:

No wahala, dear brother

I like being a "pest" that kills mosquitoes

i don't wish to prolong on this, but i still feel there some one/two things to add. Because most of the posters here(at least say pages 2&3) are fopular, well regarded 'CHRISTIANS' in the religion section of this forum. As such we should have some factuality to what we're saying. Like i'll rather've waived some flaws but because it's YOU, i'm saying. You should know that yeast is the principal in fermentation or alcohol making. Two, no bottle(new or old) can withstand the 'energies' of fermentation. Three, fresh(est) palmwine(i wondered why palmwine came up) is non-alcoholic and can be preserved.
i won't argue on any of the above. Whatever you choose to believe on it, that's not what i was here to defend. Just thought to inform you on them.

@InesQor: All well and good with regard to your caveats, but the problem is that the bible mentions wine and strong drink and does not discuss unfermented grape juice nor unfermented wine in the passages under consideration. Let me reiterate:

1) The Bible does not forbid taking wine nor strong drink. In fact in Deutoronomy, it positively encouraged it.
2) It is one of the hallmarks of false teachers to forbid the ingestion of foods that God has provided for our benefit and pleasure.
3) Despite all the peregrinations none of the forbidding crew has offered up any explanation on the first Timothy verse. In fact one notices a studious and curious silence on this bible verse.
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
I guess as a Priest, Timothy was to absolutely abstain from wine (forgetting that the Jesus is a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek which operates under a different set of rules from that of Levi). Funny that Paul didn't know that Timothy wasn't to take wine!
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Oops! I guess Melchizedek forgot to leave the wine out.
3) Notice how in a bid to justify the twisting of the simple, explicit and clear to understand bible verses, appeals have been made to extra-biblical sources.

So InesQor, you have provided the bolt-hole that some desperately needed.