^^^how can a muslim be talking about tolerance?. does not add up

Akainzo:

Just because there exist such type of banking and some people would love to have its benefits. Tell me is banking as currently practiced a christian affair that you should see islamic banking as against the conventional banks or is it just that you are against anything islamic?

Is the Catholic Church the only church in Nigeria? If you can accept that though all are christians but still have strong differences to make them branch out to Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others, why then do you want other religions not to have their own preferences.

By being tolerant to your younger brother does not mean you are tolerant to others in the same shoes. Please lets start to have tolerance for other things that are not in our comfort zones.

Can you imagine Muslims telling Christians to be tolerant. LWKMD

Does Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others have their own banks.

Guy your analysis is wrong , Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others are[b] all Christians.[/b]

The Issues is between religion and not denominations

If Islamic bank should exit, then all other religion(Christians, Animist, Buddhism e.t.c) should have their own banking system.

Before the advent of Christianity, Islam and western banking system.

Was our forefathers not buy and selling?

Maybe dem dey fear Boko Haram!!!!

emmatok:

Can you imagine Muslims telling Christians to be tolerant. LWKMD

Does Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others have their own banks.

Guy your analysis is wrong , Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others are[b] all Christians.[/b]

The Issues is between religion and not denominations

If Islamic bank should exit, then all other religion(Christians, Animist, Buddhism e.t.c) should have their own banking system.

Before the advent of Christianity, Islam and western banking system.

Was our forefathers not buy and selling?

Islamic Banking is not there because 'the muslims want their own bank'.

The quran frowns upon interest banking and funding of establishments that are seen to be impure (i.e Gambling houses). This is the type of banking the conventional banks practice and as such is an ethical and moral issue for many devout muslims.
Islamic banking is practiced in many countries around the world, it's a non-interest banking model without discrimination in the religion of their clients, as long as the banking done is not contrary to Islamic ethics.

Christianity does not explicitly frown on interest charging. Right from the days of the Crusades, the powerful Popes and to the modern day, the Church has seen no major qualms with conventional banking. There is no need now to start haggling over 'Christian banking' as if suddenly you will be marginalized when it kicks off.

I hate these petty arguments with a passion.

If you are smart enough, you'd know that Nigeria being a free society is a reason why Islamic banking should be incorporated for those Nigerians that desire it. And when has it been that all policies of government are debated by all. Did you get to approve Soludo's consolidation agenda. You think too much of your demented self. Grow up.

Nigeria being a free society means all shiit must be brought into the country! That's the reason why Sharia was allowed the first. Maybe, Boko Haram is okay too because Nigeria is a free society. Look at you nerd boohoo!

By the way, Nigeria is secular yet it subsidises the bills for pilgrimages to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Think about that.
You might also want to read up about constitution drafting in Nigeria and learn that Sharia has been in our constitution since 1979. Is that long enough for your 20 years mis-jive?

Those that taught you Sharia are looking for ways to get rid of it. It amazes me how you exhibit ignorance here and claimed to be learned. Reformation going on in the middle east is not just about dictator but about the system. You must change your mentality and altitude - you are really brainwashed by religion.

Islamic Banking is not there because 'the muslims want their own bank'

Why now? If not that you people want to cause more chaos in the country.

jmaine:

Enough of your silly insinuations . . . For your information . . .a look at your amiable Sanusi lying just to achieve his objective . .


http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/features/newsonthehour/2011/july/09/newsbreak-09-07-2011-001.html

At this stage, it's all hearsay. I have no reason to trust anyone over the other.

You should not have put that link up. Now people are exposed to how incoherent and aimless Oritsejafor really sounds.
People like Ayo oritsejafor are the ones that are causing the heat, drama and paranoia in the system. If Sanusi really offered to walk into the 'lion's den' and discuss with them, why did he turn down the offer? If Islamic banking really is such a threat to them, why would he miss out on an opportunity to dig further down on Sanusi's strategy?

Funny how the same man was urging the arrest of Buhari for making 'inciting comments' yet he's the one inciting the biggest wave of religious paranoia in Nigeria since the electoral violence.

all4naija:

Why now? If not that you people want to cause more chaos in the country.

For the last time, simpleton, I am a Christian.
You cretins see the world only in black and white. In your simple minds, as long as someone defends Sanusi, that person is a Muslim. Rubbish!

We have since begged you folk to show us how Islamic banking will cause more chaos in the country. Where are the facts? What analogies can you share?

Empty, paranoia infested barrels.

^^^^
You guys think this country belongs to you alone. We must question that Bank and whoever brought it into the country.

For the last time, simpleton, I am a Christian.
You cretins see the world only in black and white. In your simple minds, as long as someone defends Sanusi, that person is a Muslim. Rubbish!

We have since begged you folk to show us how Islamic banking will cause more chaos in the country. Where are the facts? What analogies can you share?

Empty, paranoia infested barrels 

Read my comment again, mr. Simpleton. Did I call you a Muslim in the first case? Go and sleep slowpoke!

It is already a chaos -  can't you see that? This is a sensitivity country when it comes to religion. You talk as if you don't know your people so well. It is a shame!

Nigerians and sentiments. we all crave for the betterment of this country but admist dat we use our hands and mouth to make it crumble the more.why don't we just give the whole thing a chance and see how it is going to work. We just av to be tolerant.

^^^^ Tolerance is an issue as well.

It amazes me how Muslims are now asking to be tolerant when they are not.

I wish everybody can associate without bringing religion into it.

all4naija:

^^^^ Tolerance is an issue as well.

It amazes me how Muslims are now asking to be tolerant when they are not.

I wish everybody can associate without bringing religion into it.

Well, many Christians aren't 'tolerant' too.
This brouhaha over Islamic banking shows this fact clearly. The constant verbal persecution of African traditional religion worshippers is another case.
People parade the streets, using megaphones to preach at 3 am in the night on a work night. is that tolerance? A large percentage of churches in Lagos are built in residential neighbourhoods. These same churches proceed to hold very loud Night vigils on wednesdays, keeping people awake. is that tolerance too?

emmatok:

I need to know

Why are Muslims bringing their Religion into Banking?


Is Islam the only religion in Nigeria?

Is Dangote, Dantata e.t.c, not benefiting from the conventional banking system?

I asked the questions first. If you believe in TRUTH AND FAIRNESS, answer my questions first and then I promise I will answer yours.

Again

why are christians opposed to Islamic banking?
Do the conventional banks conform fully to christian principles?
If not, do christians want to do something about it?

^^^^^
Look, I am not defending any religion!

I don't  understand why Nigerians can't  do anything without putting religion.

Tolerance is an issue but I think the magnitude  is a testament on how it's being exercised. Hatred is a beast that unleashes this form of intolerant behavior we are seeing in all parts of the country, from tribalism to religion.

I hope to see a free Nigeria!

all4naija:

^^^^
You guys think this country belongs to you alone. We must question  that Bank and whoever brought it into the country.

Actually if we believed this country belonged to muslims alone, we would not bother to answer questions here
we would not go to work on Fridays
We would not allow christians preach in public places (eg buses), build schools or do those stuff that promote their religion
But we know that this country belong to all, that is why we don't complain about christians doing stuff
and we are asking that non-muslims to allow Islamic Banking in the same spirit

emmatok:

Can you imagine Muslims telling Christians to be tolerant. LWKMD

Does Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others have their own banks.

Guy your analysis is wrong , Anglican, Presbyterian, Deeper Life, Christ Embassy, Redeemed and others are[b] all Christians.[/b]

The Issues is between religion and not denominations

If Islamic bank should exit, then all other religion(Christians, Animist, Buddhism e.t.c) should have their own banking system.

Before the advent of Christianity, Islam and western banking system.

Was our forefathers  not buy and selling?

I asked that question up there. Are christians satisfied with the conventional banks? If no, do they want to do something about it by setting up christianity banking?
If they want to I assure them of the votes of my entire mosque.
Muslims welcome Christainity, Animistic, Buddhistic banking
Just like we welcomed Redeemers', Covenant, Babcock, Bowen, Maddona Universities

link=topic=718500.msg8774656#msg8774656 date=1311431679]

I asked that question up there. Are christians satisfied with the conventional banks? If no, do they want to do something about it by setting up christianity banking?
If they want to I assure them of the votes of my entire mosque.
Muslims welcome Christainity, Animistic, Buddhistic banking
Just like we welcomed Redeemers', Covenant, Babcock, Bowen,  Maddona Universities

On a truthful ground, do you think those Universities can be allowed in the North without being burnt down or disturbed by the society? I want your sincere view on that.


Meanwhile, can't we remove religion from broad range of things in the govt and society?(it is rhetorical question)

igbo boy:

^^^how can a muslim be talking about tolerance?. does not add up

Of course it adds up
Why? Muslims did not partition Africa;
Christians caused Bakassi problem;
Christians took away King Jaja of Opobo
Muslims did not fight the Boer War,
neither did we have anything to do with Vietnam war or the Mau Mau riots
Of course you remember the Bay of Pigs Invasion
Muslims welcomed Redeemers', Covenant, Babcock, Bowen,  Maddona Universities without rancour

texazzpete:

At this stage, it's all hearsay. I have no reason to trust anyone over the other.

You should not have put that link up. Now people are exposed to how incoherent and aimless Oritsejafor really sounds.
People like Ayo oritsejafor are the ones that are causing the heat, drama and paranoia in the system.

You imported your prejudice here . . .the rule of the game is to debunk claims with available references/sources for authenticity . . . I put up the link to avoid forum members labelling it a lie, due to no link to buttress my point . . . Sanusi lied  that he invited them for a hearing and they declined . . . The people he accused said such never happened . .they were already scheduled to have a meeting with their unique agenda to be discussed . . .Sanusi felt he could gate crash in there to truncate their meeting just to say what he had to say .  . . .and they said no . .sorry, we have an agenda already for the meeting, and provisions for you can't be accommodated now . . .But what did Lord Sanusi do . . .he twisted the story so that people can  caress him and say well done . . .

texazzpete:


If Sanusi really offered to walk into the 'lion's den' and discuss with them, why did he turn down the offer? If Islamic banking really is such a threat to them, why would he miss out on an opportunity to dig further down on Sanusi's strategy?

So are you trying to tell me in clear terms that while in the middle of a presumed important meeting . . Sanusi impromptu demands should have sailed through . . . and for what reasons  must that occur . . . . Why did he have to twist the episode to curry false sympathy  to himself . . .and the vocal Sanusi i know would have punctured Oritsejafor claims if they were lies . . .You simply need to accept it when someone fails himself like he did when he lied   . . .   There is simply no excuse for you to cover this lie by terming it hear say   . . .

texazzpete:


Funny how the same man was urging the arrest of Buhari for making 'inciting comments' yet he's the one inciting the biggest wave of religious paranoia in Nigeria since the electoral violence.

Buhari inciting electioneering methodology at a very sensitive election period  has caused more problems than Pastor Ayo would ever will . . . That is a topic for another day . . .

all4naija:

link=topic=718500.msg8774656#msg8774656 date=1311431679]

On a truthful ground, do you think those Universities can be allowed in the North without being burnt down or disturbed by the society? I want your sincere view on that.


Meanwhile, can't we remove religion from broad range of things in the govt and society?(it is rhetorical question)

There are churches in the North. Are there not?
We should try and separate fanatics and tribal issues from religion.

Boko Haram issued a release this week and I nearly wept. They were ignorant of what a primary 4 pupil (who has studied IRS for at least 3 years) should know about Islam
Now these are the people seen as the face of Islam
Since this matter started, I have asked my colleagues in the office - am I violent, fanatical etc
So what % of muslims are actually misguided that we insist all muslims must be tarred with the same brush
Everytime legitimate aspirations of muslims are denied, it is a victory to Boko Haram

Look at this story. It is long but read it patiently. It tells you ethnicity is a major factor in this country
http://www.thenigerianvoice.com/nvnews/17309/1/condom-in-church-catholic-priest-opens-can-of-worm.html
It was originally published in the Nigerian Sun

texazzpete:

Well, many Christians aren't 'tolerant' too.
This brouhaha over Islamic banking shows this fact clearly. The constant verbal persecution of African traditional religion worshippers is another case.
People parade the streets, using megaphones to preach at 3 am in the night on a work night. is that tolerance? A large percentage of churches in Lagos are built in residential neighbourhoods. These same churches proceed to hold very loud Night vigils on wednesdays, keeping people awake. is that tolerance too?

FOOL, SO Christians are intolerant because they simply criticising the Govt. policies.

All those activities you state up there are also done by Muslims.

Tell me when did criticism become illegal, even the best Govt. policies are criticized everyday.

The fact the you people don't want any body to criticize the CBN policy show you are intolerant.

Because CBN belongs to all Nigerians.

Unlike the Muslims you are defending, How many Christians have taking to violence.

Burning Mosques, killing people all in the name of religion.

BetaThings:

There are churches in the North. Are there not?
We should try and separate fanatics and tribal issues from religion.

Boko Haram issued a release this week and I nearly wept. They were ignorant of what a primary 4 pupil (who has studied IRS for at least 3 years) should know about Islam
Now these are the people seen as the face of Islam
Since this matter started, I have asked my colleagues in the office - am I violent, fanatical etc
So what % of muslims are actually misguided that we insist all muslims must be tarred with the same brush
Everytime legitimate aspirations of muslims are denied, it is a victory to Boko Haram

Look at this story. It is long but read it patiently. It tells you ethnicity is a major factor in this country
http://www.thenigerianvoice.com/nvnews/17309/1/condom-in-church-catholic-priest-opens-can-of-worm.html
It was originally published in the Nigerian Sun

My friend I have live in the North for long to know that Muslims don't Tolerate any INFIDEL.

Their has been religions crisis in the North even Before the the advent of BOKO-HARAM.

Instead of addressing the real issue, you are bringing the story of a local parish.

emmatok:

My friend I have live in the North for long to know that Muslims don't Tolerate any INFIDEL.

Their has been religions crisis in the North even Before the the advent of BOKO-HARAM.

Instead of addressing the real issue, you are bringing the story of a local parish.

Christians too also call people INFIDELS? DO THEY TOLERATE THEM?
I agree that there have been religious crisis
Is the Zango Kataf crisis a religious or tribal dispute?
The local parish issue is symptomatic of the ethnic issue that we have in this country

Ask yourself - Are there Muslims in the SW? Are they tolerant
Should we judge Islam by what goes on in the North alone?
Why would there be an ethnic division within a church in the North

You have been dodging my questions while accusing me of not addressing issues. Why don't you just put the matter to rest

why are christians opposed to Islamic banking?
Do the conventional banks conform fully to christian principles?
If not, do christians want to do something about it?

BetaThings:


why are christians opposed to Islamic banking?

Because Nigeria is a not a religious state, and CBN is not a religious organisation.

BetaThings:


Do the conventional banks conform fully to christian principles?

No they don't,  and we do not need any religious principle in Any bank.

BetaThings:


If not, do christians want to do something about it?

Christians don't want any religion infuse into the banking system.

Why won't the House of Rep accept Islamic Banking when the population of the house is full of Muslims/norhterners who happen 2 be d majority n u know dat in any yea & nay situation the majority of yeas wil always carry d vote.Nigeria is a dynamic nation so we know dat evry thing dat has a begining wil hav a finishing point let's see d tune of things overturning. LONG LIVE NIGEIRA,LONG LIVE FEDERAL INTEREST,LONG LIVE JONATHAN D REFORMER.

emmatok:

Because Nigeria is a not a religious state, and CBN is not a religious organisation.

No they don't,  and we do not need any religious principle in Any bank.

Christians don't want any religion infuse into the banking system.

So why do we have religious schools then? knowing that schools propagate religion more than a bank
So also are NUC and Min of Education not religious organisations but they issues licences to religious schools
Would you really say that if you are comfortable not going to church, churches should not be built
To repeat, muslims don't want to take or pay interest, is it fair to insist that they should do so because you like it?

Let me explain why muslims cannot understand why christians are fighting islamic banking
christians run christian schools; anybody can run an islamic bank
In a christian school, it is usually compulsory for everyone to go to church
Not bringing a bible to church can lead to suspension
In Babcock, in observance of Sabath, no student can study on Saturday even if you have a crucial exam the following monday
there is no provision for muslims prayer area in the school
Muslims who elect to go to these schools (instead of UI, UNN, ABU) bear it without complaint

Now will an Islamic bank force you to buy or read the quran? Or go to the mosque
An Islamic bank owned by christians will even do christian fellowship for christians if they like
Now a christian may decide not to open an account with an Islamic Bank and just continue biz

Please how does the bank that cannot compel anyone to do anything infuse religion on a nation while
schools that enforce religious injunctions (on a vulnerable segment) have been operating for years in that same society

Quote from: texazzpete on Yesterday at 11:31:48 AM

Perhaps we should also go to schools and change subject names from Islamic Studies to 'Non-christian studies'

It amazes me how you people can call Nigeria a 'secular state' in one breath, then in the other actively try to curtail the use of the word 'Islamic' to describe anything. The same people that are complaining of intolerance and bigotry are the ones trying hard to project intolerance by demanding that the term 'Islamic banking' using in lots of countries around the world must be expunged when it comes to Nigeria.

Perhaps muslims clerics should also demand change in names for Covenant and Madonna Universities to 'avoid discrimination and tension'. 

your argument holds nothing. your analogy are not quite related. It is not against Islam to call it "non interest banking" because that is what it is basically. This is a national issue and should therefore have a neutral name so as to gain wider acceptance by all and sundry.


the universities you mentioned are privately owned and there are lots of Islamic Universities in Nigeria. (when you own something you call it whatever you want---Frank Lucas). This is govt, its suppose to last beyond Sanusi, right? Its a govt policy, it is suppose to unite the country without necessarily appearing to be swinging towards religious, political, tribal in-balances.

Lets say Zenith Bank says we offer "Islamic Banking services", how do you expect a non Islamic customer to understand what it actually means. the bank will spend more money convincing customers of their product.


Considering the volatile nature of our Country, and the different sect clamoring for  "whatever".

Its a good Idea and should be encouraged but also need to be presented in a way to make people to embrace it without fear or confusion.

BetaThings:

So why do we have religious schools then? knowing that schools propagate religion more than a bank
So also are NUC and Min of Education not religious organisations but they issues licences to religious schools
Would you really say that if you are comfortable not going to church, churches should not be built
To repeat, muslims don't want to take or pay interest, is it fair to insist that they should do so because you like it?

Let me explain why muslims cannot understand why christians are fighting islamic banking
christians run christian schools; anybody can run an islamic bank
In a christian school, it is usually compulsory for everyone to go to church
Not bringing a bible to church can lead to suspension
In Babcock, in observance of Sabath, no student can study on Saturday even if you have a crucial exam the following monday
there is no provision for muslims prayer area in the school
Muslims who elect to go to these schools (instead of UI, UNN, ABU) bear it without complaint

Now will an Islamic bank force you to buy or read the quran? Or go to the mosque
An Islamic bank owned by christians will even do christian fellowship for christians if they like
Now a christian may decide not to open an account with an Islamic Bank and just continue biz

Please how does the bank that cannot compel anyone to do anything infuse religion on a nation while
schools that enforce religious injunctions (on a vulnerable segment) have been operating for years in that same society

I think you need to educate yourself very well before making comments.

So because we have Muslim and Christian schools we must have

Muslim and Christian Banks

Muslim and Christian police

Muslim and Christian army

Muslim and Christian States

nonsense.

Can you please differentiate between PRIVATE AND PUBLIC business.

Banks are public enterprise

But some schools are not.

tlops:

Quote from: texazzpete on Yesterday at 11:31:48 AM
your argument holds nothing. your analogy are not quite related. It is not against Islam to call it "non interest banking" because that is what it is basically. This is a national issue and should therefore have a neutral name so as to gain wider acceptance by all and sundry.

Nationally, there is something called Islamic Religious Knowledge, should it be changed to a neutral name?
To repeat it again, the essence of the "Islamic" rather than "Non-interest" is that its practitioners cannot give such loans in support of what the Islamic religion forbids. Just being non-interest would make alcohol a permissible beneficiary of the loans but by being properly situated, one can understand when one is not granted a loan under its guidelines for beer business.
Hope you now understand?

the universities you mentioned are privately owned and there are lots of Islamic Universities in Nigeria. (when you own something you call it whatever you want---Frank Lucas). This is govt, its suppose to last beyond Sanusi, right? Its a govt policy, it is suppose to unite the country without necessarily appearing to be swinging towards religious, political, tribal in-balances.

And which of the islamic banks would be owned by government? CBN under Sanusi is not going to operate any Islamic bank, it is individuals that would own their own banks which you accept they can call whatever they want - they want to call it an Islamic Bank. Do you want to deny them that right?

Lets say Zenith Bank says we offer "Islamic Banking services", how do you expect a non Islamic customer to understand what it actually means. the bank will spend more money convincing customers of their product.

And in your perceived ignorance, Zenith bank does not now spend time to explain all its products to customers before they can understand it. Should Zenith scrap such products now because some customers would not immediately understand it. Heck scrap some Additional Mathematics from school curriculum cos most students wont understand it. mtcheew!

Its a good Idea and should be encouraged but also need to be presented in a way to make people to embrace it without fear or confusion.

Thankfully, you accept it is a good idea, then accept it and lets see how it plays out.

all4naija:

Nigeria being a free society means all shiit must be brought into the country! That's the reason why Sharia was allowed the first. Maybe, Boko Haram is okay too because Nigeria is a free society. Look at you nerd boohoo!

Like i said previously, your ignorance is nauseating. Go and read up on how Sharia came to be in the Nigerian Constitution.

Those that taught you Sharia are looking for ways to get rid of it. It amazes me how you exhibit ignorance here and claimed to be learned. Reformation going on in the middle east is not just about dictator but about the system. You must change your mentality and altitude - you are really brainwashed by religion.

You are quite pathetic in your reasoning. You reason like someone who learnt ABC by standing outside the school windows. After the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, they have demanded for a secular state, have they? Such a slowpoke you are.

And my religious brainwashing must have come from all the Sunday worships and midweek services i must have attended seeing as i am a christian. But your jaundiced mind would only allow you to think that only muslims can see something good in Islamic banking. Grow up and broaden yourself, The world is not only made up of your sitting room and internet connections.

Akainzo:

Like i said previously, your ignorance is nauseating. Go and read up on how Sharia came to be in the Nigerian Constitution.

You are quite pathetic in your reasoning. You reason like someone who learnt ABC by standing outside the school windows. After the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, they have[b] demanded for a secular state[/b], have they? Such a slowpoke you are.

And my religious brainwashing must have come from all the Sunday worships and midweek services i must have attended seeing as i am a christian. But your jaundiced mind would only allow you to think that only muslims can see something good in Islamic banking. Grow up and broaden yourself, The world is not only made up of your sitting room and internet connections.

They demand for change from the formal oppressing regime(the type you admire -without questioning) to a more democratic, self governing system that encompasses secular state ideas. Keep fooling yourself.  Islam has failed Arabs. It is going to fail in Nigeria too.

You are more than pathetic. What made you think you are learned here is only in your silly head that you can't reason with - simple reason you are brainwashed by religion.It is sad a so called learned can't use his brain to understand that Islam is just another people tradition. Islam sucks that is it! Boohoo!

It's very interesting watching you exercise your[b] ignorance[/b] here. I think most people will laugh at you after reading your argument.