El Elohe Yahshrael!

There are over 5000 Gods being worshipped by humans, how do you know that your God is the Creator?


I won't really say the "right one" because, to every worshipper, his or her God is the "right" one. But I will say the "Creator" because there can only be one Creator. So, even if you say your God is the right one, it doesn't mean he/she/it is the Creator. It means, therefore, that knowing the Creator is one thing and chosing to worship him or not to worship him is another.

The heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them were created. Man did not fall down from the sky. Man was created. Even the sky itself was created.


So, of all the gods, over 5000, according to some people, how do you know that your own God is the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them?

El Elohe Yahshrael! Hallelu YAH!

No takers?

thou there may be 8million gods or Gods as you put it but there's only one true GOD who is not an end product of the work of crafty men.
i know you may demand for more explanation but i don't compare my God to gods

elated177:

f all the gods, over 5000, according to some people, how do you know that your own God is the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them?

The only true God who created the heavens and the earth must be the same who created man in His image! Genesis 1:26-28

Of all the creatures on this planet man is the only specie that's able to make things better or let's say makes better things, other creatures have remained the way they are from time immemorial.

So that must be the true God. Any God that can't foretell what man will turn out to become in the future is fake because the true God has a purpose for creating man in His image and that purpose should be met {Isaiah 55:8-11} therefore any god who is not working towards the betterment or welfare of this planet is fake! Revelations 11:18

I know my God is the one and only true God by the way He planned to make this planet a haven! He promised to use His Active Force (Holy Spirit) to gather humble and obedient people {Zechariah 4:6} and after sending His only begotten Son to counsel right thinking mankind {Isaiah 9:6} He sent His Holy Spirit and people began coming from all the nations of the earth to His Holy mountain (pure worship) {Isaiah 2:2} they started using His word (Bible) to educate themselves {Isaiah 2:3} and the result is that this book has helped them to resolve all their racial disparities, divert their resources into production of food and information materials, stop the production, buying, selling and usage of weapons, then they have all vowed never to raise weapons against anyone again and as for wars they're saying goodbye! Isaiah 2:4

If your God has failed to produce something of this nature then know that your God is fake! Matthew 7:16-18

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Ogamysamo:
thou there may be 8million gods or Gods as you put it but there's only one true GOD who is not an end product of the work of crafty men.
i know you may demand for more explanation but i don't compare my God to gods

That's not proof.. of anything.

You're basically saying that your God is the creator without actually bothering to ask why, or prove it.

You've done absolutely nothing to prove your God

I don't necessarily agree that if gods exist, or if creator gods existed, they had to be singular.

That being said, the claim to creation is one made by humans, on behalf of several thousand gods.

How can the theist know that theirs is the real creator? Well, they first have to prove the existence of their god, before going on to show objective proofs why their own deity had to be, or is the creator.

What would the proof look like?? I have no idea. Maybe their God could write in the sky something like “my name is X.. and I created y'all".. or make several planets and galaxies rearrange themselves to spell its/their names?

I don't know

I'm going to ignore your peace and war narrative because i simply cannot with you at this point.

MaxInDHouse:


The only true God who created the heavens and the earth must be the same who created man in His image! Genesis 1:26-28

Why does the creator God, if it exists, have to make man in it's image? What is the image of the creator? Let's see it, and compare, so we would know if we were really created in the image of said God.

Of all the creatures on this planet man is the only specie that's able to make things better or let's say makes better things, other creatures have remained the way they are from time immemorial.

That's an impressive feat on behalf of us humans.. but it speaks nothing about the nature or identity of a God.

You've made this claim before as to how we create things.. but we create things from things that currently exists.. not from nothing. And other animals do so too.

Sure, our creations are more advanced, thanks to the several perks in our evolution.. but that doesn't mean anything special.

Also.. our ability to create things doesn't point to any specific God. The farthest it will take you, is to say that whatever God/Gods created us, wanted us to be this smart.

So that must be the true God. Any God that can't foretell what man will turn out to become in the future is fake because the true God has a purpose for creating man in His image and that purpose should be met {Isaiah 55:8-11}

Several wild claims here. What obligation does a God have to fortell what we turn out to become? When did a God, if it exists, become your personal soothsayer?

You've also still failed to show how we were created in the image of said God.

therefore any god who is not working towards the betterment or welfare of this planet is fake! Revelations 11:18

What obligation does a God have to work towards your betterment?

I know my God is the one and only true God by the way He planned to make this planet a haven! He promised to use His Active Force (Holy Spirit) to gather humble and obedient people {Zechariah 4:6} and after sending His only begotten Son to counsel right thinking mankind {Isaiah 9:6} He sent His Holy Spirit and people began coming from all the nations of the earth to His Holy mountain (pure worship) {Isaiah 2:2} they started using His word (Bible) to educate themselves {Isaiah 2:3} and the result is that this book has helped them to resolve all their racial disparities, divert their resources into production of food and information materials, stop the production, buying, selling and usage of weapons, then they have all vowed never to raise weapons against anyone again and as for wars they're saying goodbye! Isaiah 2:4

If your God has failed to produce something of this nature then know that your God is fake! Matthew 7:16-18

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Yeah... Peace... ffs

Wilgrea7:

I'm going to ignore your peace and war narrative because i simply cannot with you at this point.

Please at any point in time you think of quoting me remember my nickname: "Mr Benefits"
So in the absence of benefits please do not mention me at all, i'm not the type that buy data, charge my device, spend my precious time and crack my brains for no benefits! 1Corinthians 9:26; Ephesians 5:15-17

Thanks!

MaxInDHouse:

Please at any point in time you think of quoting me remember my nickname: "Mr Benefits"
So in the absence of benefits please do not mention me at all, i'm not the type that buy data, charge my device, spend my precious time and crack my brains for no benefits! 1Corinthians 9:26; Ephesians 5:15-17

Thanks!

Nairaland is a forum where people with different beliefs and ideologies come together to discuss.

If you don't want to be mentioned.. or don't want your statements to be criticized.. then don't post.

This is not an echo chamber for christian or JW ideas. It is a religious forum for discussion.

If you don't have a rebuttal, just say so. No one will beat you

Wilgrea7:

Nairaland is a forum where people with different beliefs and ideologies come together to discuss. If you don't want to be mentioned.. or don't want your statements to be criticized.. then don't post. This is not an echo chamber for christian or JW ideas. It is a religious forum for discussion. If you don't have a rebuttal, just say so. No one will beat you

You can continue with your criticism but if you want me to chat with you then you have to let me know what we can benefit in the discussion.

Yes Nairaland is like a big walkway where people are passing, of course it makes no sense walking up to people trying to engage them in discussions when there's no benefits, nah!

MaxInDHouse:


You can continue with your criticism but if you want me to chat with you then you have to let me know what we can benefit in the discussion.

With every discussion... We have the opportunity to learn something new... In addition to that.. we have the opportunity to teach... not just the person we're discussing with, but the silent person who also reads the discussion for knowledge and clarification.

There... I've identified your benefit

Yes Nairaland is like a big walkway where people are passing, of course it makes no sense walking up to people trying to engage them in discussions when there's no benefits, nah!

A forum and a walkway are NOT the same thing. A place where people discuss and a place where people pass through are not the same. Whether or not you choose to gain something from the discussion is up to you.

I've gone through your posts.. The so called benefits you claim to champion are absent from a lot of them.

The way I see it.. It's just a word you run to when your circular arguments fail to help you out

But I won't drag this on further. The topic of this thread is why people believe their specific God is the creator.

Let's stick to the topic please

Wilgrea7:

With every discussion... We have the opportunity to learn something new... In addition to that.. we have the opportunity to teach... not just the person we're discussing with, but the silent person who also reads the discussion for knowledge and clarification.
There... I've identified your benefit
A forum and a walkway are NOT the same thing. A place where people discuss and a place where people pass through are not the same. Whether or not you choose to gain something from the discussion is up to you.
I've gone through your posts.. The so called benefits you claim to champion are absent from a lot of them.
The way I see it.. It's just a word you run to when your circular arguments fail to help you out
But I won't drag this on further. The topic of this thread is why people believe their specific God is the creator.
Let's stick to the topic please

Just what we're going to gain from discussing!

I prefer chatting with a person who will first tell me what we'll benefit from the discussion so chat with others who don't care but with i (Maximus) think BENEFITS first before quoting me!

Ogamysamo:
thou there may be 8million gods or Gods as you put it but there's only one true GOD who is not an end product of the work of crafty men.
i know you may demand for more explanation but i don't compare my God to gods

How did I put it? Did I say there were 8 million gods?

There is one and only true God, of course. Did I say something different?

The one and only true God is the One who created the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them. This attribute - as the Creator - makes him the one and only true God.

Actually, how else would you know the one and only true God, if you do not compare and contrast the attributes of the deities who claim the title - "the one and only true God"? The Scriptures are filled with instances where the one and only true God showed that he alone is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

MaxInDHouse:


The only true God who created the heavens and the earth must be the same who created man in His image! Genesis 1:26-28

What else would he be? Didn't you see where it was said "the seas and everything in them"?

MaxInDHouse:

Of all the creatures on this planet man is the only specie that's able to make things better or let's say makes better things, other creatures have remained the way they are from time immemorial.

Are you saying that other creatures weren't created by the same God?

MaxInDHouse:

So that must be the true God. Any God that can't foretell what man will turn out to become in the future is fake because the true God has a purpose for creating man in His image and that purpose should be met {Isaiah 55:8-11}

True.

MaxInDHouse:

therefore any god who is not working towards the betterment or welfare of this planet is fake! Revelations 11:18

Throw more light on this.

MaxInDHouse:

I know my God is the one and only true God by the way He planned to make this planet a haven! He promised to use His Active Force (Holy Spirit) to gather humble and obedient people {Zechariah 4:6} and after sending His only begotten Son to counsel right thinking mankind {Isaiah 9:6} He sent His Holy Spirit and people began coming from all the nations of the earth to His Holy mountain (pure worship) {Isaiah 2:2} they started using His word (Bible) to educate themselves {Isaiah 2:3} and the result is that this book has helped them to resolve all their racial disparities, divert their resources into production of food and information materials, stop the production, buying, selling and usage of weapons, then they have all vowed never to raise weapons against anyone again and as for wars they're saying goodbye! Isaiah 2:4

If your God has failed to produce something of this nature then know that your God is fake! Matthew 7:16-18

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Maxindhouse, are all groups out there that are made up of different races and do not support the use of weapon against anyone, but are involved in all kinds of sexual immorality, lying, stealing, etc, also of the one and only true God?

Wilgrea7:


I don't necessarily agree that if gods exist, or if creator gods existed, they had to be singular.

There is only one Creator.

Wilgrea7:


That being said, the claim to creation is one made by humans, on behalf of several thousand gods.

You are still at this point? Chai! Sorry o!

Wilgrea7:


How can the theist know that theirs is the real creator? Well, they first have to prove the existence of their god, before going on to show objective proofs why their own deity had to be, or is the creator.

We have moved beyond this. You are still stuck here. It is about which God is the one and only true God. It is your prerogative not to believe the existence of the supernatural.

Wilgrea7:


What would the proof look like?? I have no idea. Maybe their God could write in the sky something like “my name is X.. and I created y'all".. or make several planets and galaxies rearrange themselves to spell its/their names?

I don't know

Mtcheeeeew! Puerility!

As if the sun, the moon, the stars, thunder and lightning, the rain, the wind, and ultimately, humans, were/are not not obvious and resounding enough.

elated177:

Throw more light on this.

The will of God is for the earth to become a PARADISE {Genesis 1:26-28; Psalms 37:9-11} so any God whose agenda is not in line with this is fake?

elated177:

Maxindhouse, are all groups out there that are made up of different races and do not support the use of weapon against anyone, but are involved in all kinds of sexual immorality, lying, stealing, etc, also of the one and only true God?

The first and foremost result of sin is death so instead of killing our fellowman we must think of helping them no matter their condition until God is fed up with their badness.
So killing one's neighbour should be a matter of concern first before thinking of what leads them into dirty habits!

There is only ONE God, it is just the nomenclature that is different..

There is only one power in the world. That is why it is called a Universe.

There is only one God and all power belongs to him.

Every other thing that man has given power to, is man's creation..

elated177:


There is only one Creator.

This is something you, or anyone has failed to prove to me. Most of my discussions with you theists involves me assuming that if a creator exists, it is a singular one. I won't try to debate the existence of God here. So once again, for the sake of this thread, I will assume a single creator deity exists.

You are still at this point? Chai! Sorry o!

Awww... thank you. It still doesn't make it any less true. Claims made are always made on behalf of the gods, not directly by the gods.

We have moved past this. You are still stuck here. It is about which God is the one and only true God. It is your prerogative not to believe the existence of the supernatural.

Ok??

Mtcheeeeew! Puerility!

As if the sun, the moon, the stars, thunder and lightning, the rain, the wind, and ultimately, humans, were/are not not obvious and resounding enough.

Resounding enough of what? Of who? Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Ra, the flying spaghetti monster, Brahma, or the other several thousand gods? Or the one who decided not to interfere with humans, and because of which, we don't know it? Which one??

Wilgrea7:


This is something you, or anyone has failed to prove to me. Most of my discussions with you theists involves me assuming that if a creator exists, it is a singular one. I won't try to debate the existence of God here. So once again, for the sake of this thread, I will assume a single creator deity exists.



Awww... thank you. It still doesn't make it any less true. Claims made are always made on behalf of the gods, not directly by the gods.



Ok??



Resounding enough of what? Of who? Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Ra, the flying spaghetti monster, Brahma, or the other several thousand gods? Or the one who decided not to interfere with humans, and because of which, we don't know it? Which one??

Mtcheeeeew!

MaxInDHouse:



The will of God is for the earth to become a PARADISE {Genesis 1:26-28; Psalms 37:9-11} so any God whose agenda is not in line with this is fake?

You mean the Creator would make this present earth a paradise?
What happened to the New Heaven and the New Earth?

MaxInDHouse:


The first and foremost result of sin is death so instead of killing our fellowman we must think of helping them no matter their condition until God is fed up with their badness.
So killing one's neighbour should be a matter of concern first before thinking of what leads them into dirty habits!

What has what you said above to do with what we are discussing right here?

elated177:



Mtcheeeeew!

As usual... Unwilling to discuss

Why do i even bother?

elated177:

You mean the Creator would make this present earth a paradise?
What happened to the New Heaven and the New Earth?

The New Heavens and the new earth aren't literal as most religionists think.
HEAVENS spiritually is the place from where all blessings flow so it refers to the government to whom people are looking forward to receive good things regarding their present and future life.
EARTH spiritually means different races who makes up the inhabitants of planet earth so they keep anticipating a better tomorrow from their governments (heavens) just as the earth depends on what the sky produces like rain and sunshine.

Both has been corrupted due to sin so God is making a New heavens (Government) to be headed by Christ Jesus and his 144,000 co-rulers who are all chosen from the earth. And they're to rule over obedient mankind not rebellious humans, it's this obedient people that is forming the new earth.

Regarding this planet God has sworn never to destroy it again {Genesis 8:21-22} He promised to renovate it {Psalms 67:6-7} and as for those making it a bad place they will be removed completely from it! Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:20-22

God said He created this planet to last forever! Psalms 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4

So the New Heavens and the New Earth means something totally different from what most readers of the Bible think!

elated177:

What has what you said above to do with what we are discussing right here?

Below is your question:

elated177:

Maxindhouse, are all groups out there that are made up of different races and do not support the use of weapon against anyone, but are involved in all kinds of sexual immorality, lying, stealing, etc, also of the one and only true God?

So i responded saying all other forms of sin can be managed but killing can't be managed so God established the Christian congregation to help all those people practicing any form of abominable acts make a U-turn {1Corinthians 6:11} when we preach to them newly we only need to watch them closely to see how they're progressing spiritually {1Timothy 4:15} after all they're not thinking of killing us!

Wilgrea7:


This is something you, or anyone has failed to prove to me. Most of my discussions with you theists involves me assuming that if a creator exists, it is a singular one. I won't try to debate the existence of God here. So once again, for the sake of this thread, I will assume a single creator deity exists.



Awww... thank you. It still doesn't make it any less true. Claims made are always made on behalf of the gods, not directly by the gods.



Ok??



Resounding enough of what? Of who? Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Ra, the flying spaghetti monster, Brahma, or the other several thousand gods? Or the one who decided not to interfere with humans, and because of which, we don't know it? Which one??

I'll take a stab at answering why there can only be one God. You mentioned that you were once a Christian, so it is surprising that you haven't come across the relevant theological literature on the topic. Christianity is perhaps the most metaphysically sound religion, even more so than the other Abrahamic faiths. I believe the reason for it's soundness is due to its truth. I will also point out that I'm new to Nairaland and that I do not hope to change your beliefs on something as important as religion because, while I try to keep an open mind, I'm sure no one could change mine. It is an idealistic fantasy to assume that one can convince another about things this important after a few minutes of discussion.

That said, if we presuppose the existence of deity, there can only be one because that one would necessarily be omnipotent. Let's start with some physical background: about 13.8 billion years ago the universe started with the Big Bang; the event before which they were no events as that was the beginning of space-time. Big Bang cosmology is unanimously attested in the scientific community, so it may surprise you that it was a Catholic priest who first posited the idea. The Big Bang is of theological significance because it confirms an important theistic principle, something along the lines of: "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". I anticipate that you might ask, "who created God?", which is farcical because God wasn't created. It is philosophically sound to not be created if you didn't begin and are in fact eternal/timeless. To create everything (uni- in universe stands for one and the universe is the perfect unity of all space, time, matter and energy constructs) would require an immense amount of power; one greater than any power in the resulting universe.

A being capable of such would be omnipotent. Omnipotence requires divinity to be singular or we'd end up with an unstoppable force vs immovable object scenario. This is why any idea of gods having families often includes an elder god, such as Zeus in the Hellenistic faith. Because omnipotence must take a singular object. On the traditional view of deity it is a misnomer to refer to this lesser gods as gods at all, because they lack any god-like qualities whatsoever. They are neither omniscient, omnipotent, or omni-anything. These godlings are sometimes as human as you and I as in the case of Osiris, an Egyptian lesser god. Their lack of certain features disqualifies them from the philosophical designation "God", regardless of whether they exist or not (many Christians hold that such beings do exist but are classified in angelology/demonology of some sort). The Greeks themselves discriminated among their gods and demeaned the oldest of them by calling them titans.

While this post isn't intended to address the main point, I'll add that the Christian God did in fact prove that He is this "greatest conceivable being" I've just written about by becoming part of history in an event called the incarnation. Christians believe that at some point 2,000 years ago God became flesh and blood in a verifiable historical event. The argument at this point should concern the validity of the life of Christ and His resurrection (which would prove His divinity).

Wilgrea7:
I don't necessarily agree that if gods exist, or if creator gods existed, they had to be singular.

That being said, the claim to creation is one made by humans, on behalf of several thousand gods.

How can the theist know that theirs is the real creator? Well, they first have to prove the existence of their god, before going on to show objective proofs why their own deity had to be, or is the creator.

What would the proof look like?? I have no idea. Maybe their God could write in the sky something like “my name is X.. and I created y'all".. or make several planets and galaxies rearrange themselves to spell its/their names?

I don't know

Creation itself is a human construct, as are all the gods. The truth is, no one knows how the universe got to be, but it is not likely any of the creation myths are valid, nor is there anything to show they might be.

Wilgrea7:


As usual... Unwilling to discuss

Why do i even bother?

You bother, or should, because the op is not the only one reading what you write.

Endtimer:


I'll take a stab at answering why there can only be one God. You mentioned that you were once a Christian, so it is surprising that you haven't come across the relevant theological literature on the topic.

I've come across several arguments for the existence of a God... The teleological argument, the ontological argument, the kalam cosmological argument to name a few. I've not found any particularly convincing.

Christianity is perhaps the most metaphysically sound religion, even more so than the other Abrahamic faiths. I believe the reason for it's soundness is due to its truth.

I highly doubt it's claim of being true, or metaphysically sound... But that's a discussion for another day. If you'd like, I've created several threads recently about certain aspects of the christian doctrine i find problematic. Maybe you can take a jab at them if you want.

I will also point out that I'm new to Nairaland

Welcome to the community. You seem like a well-learned individual. I hope to be able to have more discussions with you in the future.

and that I do not hope to change your beliefs on something as important as religion because, while I try to keep an open mind, I'm sure no one could change mine. It is an idealistic fantasy to assume that one can convince another about things this important after a few minutes of discussion.

Being open minded involves accepting the possibility that your mind could be changed. Not that it must tho, but that it could.

That said, if we presuppose the existence of deity, there can only be one because that one would necessarily be omnipotent.

Question. Why exactly does the creator deity need to be "omnipotent"? Why can't we have a creator deity that's just sufficiently powerful enough to create the universe, rather than one who's infinitely powerful. Also, why does it have to only be one deity. Why can't it be 2, or 3, or 10.

Let's start with some physical background: about 13.8 billion years ago the universe started with the Big Bang; the event before which they were no events as that was the beginning of space-time. Big Bang cosmology is unanimously attested in the scientific community, so it may surprise you that it was a Catholic priest who first posited the idea. The Big Bang is of theological significance because it confirms an important theistic principle, something along the lines of: "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

I do not see how the big bang relates to the biblical claim of your God creating the heavens and the earth. A similar religious book could mean "In the beginning, the gods created everything", and you could still interpret such statement in light of the big bang. But in reality, they seem to be very unrelated statements.

I anticipate that you might ask, "who created God?", which is farcical because God wasn't created. It is philosophically sound to not be created if you didn't begin and are in fact eternal/timeless. To create everything (uni- in universe stands for one and the universe is the perfect unity of all space, time, matter and energy constructs) would require an immense amount of power; one greater than any power in the resulting universe.

I was actually typing something in response to the claims about God from the big bang, but I realized it was getting rather lengthy.. so I'll address it separately

A being capable of such would be omnipotent. Omnipotence requires divinity to be singular or we'd end up with an unstoppable force vs immovable object scenario.

I've heard of the unstoppable force vs immovable object scenario. I however, don't agree that the cause of our universe necessarily has to be infinitely powerful, or omnipotent. I'll address it in my response to the big bang.

While this post isn't intended to address the main point, I'll add that the Christian God did in fact prove that He is this "greatest conceivable being" I've just written about by becoming part of history in an event called the incarnation. Christians believe that at some point 2,000 years ago God became flesh and blood in a verifiable historical event. The argument at this point should concern the validity of the life of Christ and His resurrection (which would prove His divinity).

I don't see how the claim of incarnation, or resurrection in any way proves that the Christian God is indeed the creator of the universe. Apart from the fact that I don't necessarily believe such claims any more than I believe muhammad split the moon, I don't see things deemed "supernatural" as proof of anything, other than the possibility of the event itself.

budaatum:


You bother, or should, because the op is not the only one reading what you write.

Yeah.. I understand that.. But it does get tiring after a while. I sometimes feel like I'd have more meaningful conversations with a brick wall, than with some people here.

But I'll keep trying my best. Thanks

Wilgrea7:


Yeah.. I understand that.. But it does get tiring after a while. I sometimes feel like I'd have more meaningful conversations with a brick wall, than with some people here.

But I'll keep trying my best. Thanks

The problem we have is we are more prone to arguing than conversing. That's why we seem to want to have conversations with brick walls instead of thinking some will read what we write on brick walls and see sense in it.

My own philosophy is to cast my seeds knowing some will fall by the roadside and choke and wither and die, while some will fall on fertile soil and yield a crop a hundredfold. My duty is to be a good famer instead of wasting my precious seeds on bad soil. But know I often fail, which makes me go back to school to learn to get better seeds and know to sow them on good soil to increase the chances of them growing.

Jesus is written to have healed 10 lepers but only one acknowledged with gratitude. I am not as good as he is written to have been so my strike rate might be 1 in 10,000 or a lot less.

Endtimer:


The Big Bang is of theological significance because it confirms an important theistic principle, something along the lines of: "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". I anticipate that you might ask, "who created God?", which is farcical because God wasn't created. It is philosophically sound to not be created if you didn't begin and are in fact eternal/timeless. To create everything (uni- in universe stands for one and the universe is the perfect unity of all space, time, matter and energy constructs) would require an immense amount of power; one greater than any power in the resulting universe.

Ok... Now to iron out the issue of the big bang.

I do not see how a God creating THIS universe, means the God itself could not have been created. The problem I see with people claiming that whatever caused the big bang had to have certain properties, like spacelessness, timelessness, immaterial and so on, is that they are based on claims about something we have absolutely no idea about.

No one knows what happened outside, the big bang. We don't have the slightest clue.

Sure, our universe and everything within it, which we can observe started then, but what lay outside then is something we don't just know. Space is not just an empty void. It is a thing that can actually stretch and squeeze. And the nature of what exists outside it, or if anything exists outside it at all, is simply something we don't know at the moment.

Imagine you as a very powerful human creates a world, made of sand. Everything in the world, is sand-based. Same with the organisms there. Let's also say it is impossible for the organism to ever see outside the sand-based universe you created. To it, everything sand-based is matter. Let's also say that from the organism's perspective, sand was created at something similar to the big bang, which was the origin of it's world.

The organism could of course say that you, the creator, were immaterial. But all that would mean, is that you are not sand-based. I don't know if I'm making much sense.

From our perspective, everything began 14 billion years ago. Space, which we know, and matter, and energy which we can observe. We also have no access to things happening outside or before the big bang, so we say the big bang is the beginning of time, matter and space. For us, sure. But when talking about a being that exists outside of these things, saying the being is immaterial, and spaceless and timeless really has little meaning.

To me, It's a fancy way of saying "whatever caused the big bang, would not have properties based on the observed effects of the big bang." which of course I can agree with to an extent. Immaterial, timeless and spaceless are not properties. There are non-properties.

It's like saying non-blue, or non-yellow. Non-blue is not a specific color. It is a term used to describe something that is simply not blue. Immaterial is not an attribute, It is a word used to describe things not made of what we understand to be matter. But what that thing is really made of, we don't know. All we know, is that it is NOT made of the matter we know.

God.. How do I put this. We are trying to describe a being, which exists outside all we know, based on what we know. It's like someone being in a room, who has never left or ever seen outside the room, trying to describe the things outside the room based on the things he sees in the room.

You can describe things outside the room as non-chairs, non-tables and non-ceiling fans for example. And while you wouldn't be wrong, you wouldn't be describing anything specific either. You'd just be describing things outside the room, as things not in the room.

Wilgrea7:


Ok... Now to iron out the issue of the big bang.

I do not see how a God creating THIS universe, means the God itself could not have been created. The problem I see with people claiming that whatever caused the big bang had to have certain properties, like spacelessness, timelessness, immaterial and so on, is that they are based on claims about something we have absolutely no idea about.

No one knows what happened outside, the big bang. We don't have the slightest clue.

Except that some read one book alone and claim what they read therein is so. Those who read more than one book must understand that many do not know the difference between knowledge and what some choose to believe. But then I have seen some claim they believe a Physics textbook too, which might just explain why they do not understand Physics.

budaatum:


Except that some read one book alone and claim what they read therein is so. Those who read more than one book must understand that many do not know the difference between knowledge and what some choose to believe. But then I have seen some claim they believe a Physics textbook too, which might just explain why they do not understand Physics.

The idea of believing in a physics textbook is kinda similar to when a theist says “atheists believe in science"... It really makes me cringe.

Science.. be it physics, chemistry and so on, are not a set of statements paraded as facts. They are methods used for observing and understanding reality.

Belief plays absolutely no part there. But it seems a lot of theists, especially the fundamentalists are coincidentally people who don't really engage much with any of the scientific methods.

Wilgrea7:




The idea of believing in a physics textbook is kinda similar to when a theist says “atheists believe in science"... It really makes me cringe.

Science.. be it physics, chemistry and so on, are not a set of statements paraded as facts. They are methods used for observing and understanding reality.

Belief plays absolutely no part there. But it seems a lot of theists, especially the fundamentalists are coincidentally people who don't really engage much with any of the scientific methods.

Theists will go as far as quoting Bible claiming Jesus told them to believe, while completely disregarding that humans have evolved a lot since his time.

Ignorant stupid enslaved Adam believed, so he refused to eat the fruit that would give him knowledge for fear that he would die. Scientist use her own senses Eve did not believe, and chose to test what she was told to believe, only to find the fruit that was meant to kill her was good for food and opened her eyes so she could see they were not even paid the bare minimum of clothing, upon which she freed herself and Adam from slavery and they became self employed.

Now if only the humans you discuss with were not descendants of Adam and Eve but of the creations they read God created in his image, they would rule over the earth and the sea instead of allowing themselves to be enslaved in a poxy tiny garden. But we, as in most of us, have not evolved to know we are the gods yet, because we believe knowledge would kill us, despite it clearly written that it is the lack of knowledge that kills, so they can not even rule over getting their own daily bread not to talk of the rule over the earth and the sea, or saying let there be light without crying NEPA!

Perhaps they need to go look at those who sold them their religion. They are Genesis 1 Creations, who not only rule over the earth and the sea, but are on the way to the moon and Mars to rule over those too, while we can not build a gutter that takes our waste around the corner of the street but have it stinking us up in front of our own homes all because we believe.

We shall evolve one day, I promise. It would be when we understand and stop emulating demons.