Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Read more: http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi025.asp#ixzz1ZPrN87ru

There was a response to the letter on that Link, but i'm amused as to how Christians can juggle and twist words to their own taste. They are in a fix considering that other parts of the bible says God is good.

look at the two words peace and evil. if there was any meaning to that evil, is it really a good thing?can the opposite of peace be good and can a good thing create evil? do you have any explanations to this? sorry if this shakes your faith but we need to question these things with our common sense ok?

hmm its not amazing xtians will pass over this.

Look at this scenario . . .

"I am your father, i have the power to make you happy with christmas gifts and make you cry with 12 strokes of the cane."

Can a father be good and bad at the same time?

op. u are a good evangelist

@toba, davidylan

oh yeahhhh. i know this will faze you. There is no way you can argue against the topic without sounding foolish. but the question burning in your heart is, is God good and evil? does God have these good and evil qualities? like ying yang sort of thing?

@davidylan

I wish Joagbaje will come here and air his views, this is what you are gonna get from him.
'Isaiah must have been drunk when he said that. The Bible says God is Good. Isaiah didnt have the holy spirit when he said that. blah blah'
Just watch out.

i wonder why dilluminati would rather ramble on incoherently than tackle my analogy and hence the topic she is supposedly interested in.

diluminati:

@toba, davidylan

oh yeahhhh. i know this will faze you. There is no way you can argue against the topic without sounding foolish. but the question burning in your heart is, is God good and evil? does God have these good and evil qualities? like ying yang sort of thing?

arguing against the topic makes no sense . . . its one ridiculous non-argument that can be easily refuted.

your analogy is not absolute. any man can behave the way you presume and choose not to be.
but what do you think about what Isaiah said? is God both good and evil? i hope you read that with your eyes wide open.

diluminati:

your analogy is not absolute. any man can behave the way you presume and choose not to be.
but what do you think about what Isaiah said? is God both good and evil? i hope you read that with your eyes wide open.

Would that also mean that God can behave the way He presumes and choose not to be? (that very phrase in of itself has no rational meaning) . . .

I wonder why you take for granted that the same man who can be sweet and kind to his kids can also be very mean and wicked in punishing offence in the same children right?

so why is isaiah's claim a problem?

You are trying to be smart but in reality getting more dumber. What is Evil to you? You can read that verse, the translators brought out PEACE and then EVIL. what does that mean to you? smart one? isnt this a very simple matter?

^My oh my. You seem to be losing it. I thought you atheists are supposed to be cool logic personified. I can see that David's reply. . .

davidylan:

Look at this scenario . . .

"I am your father, i have the power to make you happy with christmas gifts and make you cry with 12 strokes of the cane."

Can a father be good and bad at the same time?

. . .has gotten under your skin. Really nettled you and exposed your faux-intellectual pretensions.

You guys are fond of juggling and tongue twisting.

I know you aint dull so i'll post that verse again.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now use your common sense, i aint asking you to pray the holy spirit show you the answer.

Now theres PEACE and then EVIL. you agree with me thats extreme opposites right? Its says EVIL EVIL, there was no citation or notation to explain what the EVIL meant but you can see PEACE was mentioned so the opposite was EVIL. what does EVIL mean to you now? aba! i didnt use any big words here right? i nor dey form professor, i just want you to use your common sense now. is it that hard to accept God is both good and evil? is it shaking your faith?

if only christians will be honest for once and admit what the Quran has told them over 1400 years ago that the bible is corrupt,they can easily save themselves from the blabbing of the atheists and turn to Islam  

take this contradiction for an example:

1.God did (2 Samuel 24:1) - "Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

2.Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1) - "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."

diluminati:

Now theres PEACE and then EVIL. you agree with me thats extreme opposites right? Its says EVIL EVIL, there was no citation or notation to explain what the EVIL meant but you can see PEACE was mentioned so the opposite was EVIL. what does EVIL mean to you now? aba! i didnt use any big words here right? i nor dey form professor, i just want you to use your common sense now. is it that hard to accept God is both good and evil? is it shaking your faith?

I know I "ain't" dull. But I can see that you are one dull and dumb female who takes herself entirely too serious. PEACE and EVIL are most definitely not extreme opposites. Where did you get that silly notion from? So because they are mentioned together in the same verse makes them "extreme opposites"? Duh. If you cannot present a logical and coherent defense of your position instead of this juvenile rant then get out of here.
BTW, this particular verse has been discussed elsewhere on this forum you Jonny-come-lately, so I suggest you look up those threads and stop boring us.

Thats what david wanted from me, Logic. You want me to try my best to brainwash you guys with Logic. thats utter stupidity. whats the point? Its makes no sense.

^Huh? What discombobulated ranting is this? You are not making any sense: how do you "brainwash" someone using "logic". I doubt if even you can make sense of what you wrote above. . .you are like an idiot-savant stringing together words just to sound intelligent but ultimately spouting meaningless drivel. Just go away.

hey shut up there i dont need to sound 'discombobulated' to prove a point to you. ediot!

Posted by: diluminati

Thats what david wanted from me, Logic. You want me to try my best to brainwash you guys with Logic. thats utter stupidity. whats the point? Its makes no sense.

Complete bull, i wasn't requesting "logic" from you, only an ability to reason outside your narrow ideological world view.

You guys are fond of juggling and tongue twisting.

actually your problem is that you have a preconcieved opinion of that verse (that automatically sees a problem where there is none) and anything else that fails to conform to that is automatically rejected by you.

I know you aint dull so i'll post that verse again.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now use your common sense, i aint asking you to pray the holy spirit show you the answer.

isnt that the same thing i've asked you to do since? A father can make peace with his child and also create a situation of extreme evil/pain . . . does that make the father inconsistent? Does that negate all the father's goodness? So if your father flogs you for stealing the neighbors chicken we automatically regard your father as completely incapable of anything good?

Now theres PEACE and then EVIL. you agree with me thats extreme opposites right?

I dont know if you ever went to school or not but simply because both words appear in the same verse does not make them "extreme opposites". For instance peace - freedom from disturbance/quiet/tranquility. Is evil the opposite of tranquility? Is evil absence of disturbance? So if i play very loud music that disturbs my neighbors then that is EVIL as defined by that verse? And you're talking of "common sense"?

Its says EVIL EVIL, there was no citation or notation to explain what the EVIL meant but you can see PEACE was mentioned so the opposite was EVIL.

Its extremely difficult to take any of you seriously when you express such a comedy of errors. So evil must mean the opposite of peace JUST because prophet Isaiah used them in the same verse? Since there was no citation of evil here what did you understand Isaiah was saying or are you transposing your own subjective ideas about evil here?

what does EVIL mean to you now? aba! i didnt use any big words here right? i nor dey form professor, i just want you to use your common sense now. is it that hard to accept God is both good and evil? is it shaking your faith?

Again you expose your own blind dogmatism. Evil is by itself a very SUBJECTIVE word. e.g. killing is universally regarded as evil, but it can be defended in court as a form of self-defence. Infact some countries like the US still practice executions as a form of justice. So is murder necessarily evil in ALL CASES? The answer is no.

It is never hard to accept that God is both good and evil. The problem is YOU who think that since your own idea of God must necessarily mean He can ONLY be good then He having an evil side must mean He is
a. non-existent
b. not powerful after all
c. terribly inconsistent or
d. incapable of being good at all

without wasting my precious time quoting bible verses to myopic/spiritually blind/deliberately ignorant individuals like diluminati, it is well established that God clearly states His blessings on those who are obedient to Him and CLEARLY spells out His wrath/punishment on those who disobey His commands. Note the 2 verses quoted by Lagosshia, each situation was precipitated by the DELIBERATE decision of the children of Israel to act in direct conflict with God's clearly stated codes of conduct . . . it is no surprise that God's wrath would engender a moment of pain/momentary "evil" on a people who had broken their side of the covenant.

Look at Deuteronomy 28 for the terms and conditions for the covenant - verse 1 starts very clearly - and it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken DILLIGENTLY unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to OBSERVE and TO DO ALL His commandments . . . He then goes on 14 verses of nothing but blessings!

think about it in two ways - when you sign a contract agreement with your electric company, you are provided 24 hrs uninterrupted power supply AS LONG as you pay your bills promptly!

But as with every contract, there is a PENALTY for breaking it . . . verse 15 of Deut 28 - But it shall come to pass, if thou WILT NOT HEARKEN unto the voice of the Lord thy God . . . it then goes on to list all the unfortunate CONSEQUENCES of wilful disobedience . . . think about it as your power company shutting off your electric when your bills are not paid!

Or think about it this way - as a parent . . . you reward your child's good behaviour with praise, a gift or two, perhaps a movie, perhaps he/she gets to stay up later than usual. BUT when that child does something to deliberately hurt you . . . out comes the "naughty corner", time-out, grounded, witholding of priviledges, sometimes even a serious flogging.
Does that mean you as a parent is incapable of loving your own child? Does that mean you as a parent lack a sense of justice toward your child?
Do you realise that to a child, a mere preventing him from playing his favorite video game may make you EVIL in his sight? Does your child automatically see you as hateful, inconsistent, perhaps non-existing? Would the idea of a parent = good ALL THE TIME?

While diluminati has no problem understanding the way the justice system works in real life, she pretends to be surprised that God also practices a justice system that rewards the obedient with peace and the disobedient with His wrath/evil. Infact, this is the premise of much of Isaiah 45! Is diluminati against sentencing murderers to life in prison?

in the multitude of words you can find pure foolishness.
you got jewish friends right? let them tell you the meaning of that 'evil' in hebrew. when you get the real meaning then come here and defend it.

diluminati:

in the multitude of words you can find pure foolishness.
you got jewish friends right? let them tell you the meaning of that 'evil' in hebrew. when you get the real meaning then come here and defend it.

Do you always ramble on like this

diluminati:

hey shut up there i dont need to sound 'discombobulated' to prove a point to you. ediot!

^At last! A coherent sentence. There's yet hope for you misguided child. Now run along and go play with your toys, you teenage pretend atheist (but wanna-be illuminati drones are not actually atheists).

diluminati:

in the multitude of words you can find pure foolishness.
you got jewish friends right? let them tell you the meaning of that 'evil' in hebrew. when you get the real meaning then come here and defend it.

^Let me help you. The word you request is this one: רעה

Now make your point and stop hiding behind Hebrew words. It seems you still don't get it, no one here is interested in "defending" Isaiah 45:7; it needs no defending. Peace is not the "extreme opposite" of evil.

diluminati:

in the multitude of words you can find pure foolishness.
you got jewish friends right? let them tell you the meaning of that 'evil' in hebrew. when you get the real meaning then come here and defend it.

allow me to indulge you.
The word "evil" as used in Isaiah 45:7 is interpreted as רָעַע (ra) in hebrew.

But does it mean "evil" as you dishonestly input in Is 45:7? No, because ra has been used to indicate multiple negative outcomes in the bible. See for example - Gen 40:7 And he asked Pharaoh's officers that [were] with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye [so] sadly to day?

the "sadly" there is actually denoted as "ra" in hebrew. Is it possible that Pharaoh was asking his officers why they were looking so EVIL today?

Example 2 - Psa 34:19 Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

"Afflictions" above here is also denoted as "ra" . . . does that mean the righteous are EVIL people?

Without going into too much detail, a lot of the meanings to these perceived contradictions and inconsistencies can be easily decoded if only many of these deluded atheists paid attention to CONTEXT. Its obvious that the "evil" in Is 45:7 is not talking about the literal meaning of EVIL (the purview of the devil) but a form of punishment that engenders feelings of sadness or affliction as a consequence for breaking our end of the covenant.

Next time you ask others for hebrew words, make sure you read them yourself.

Any more "contradictions" you want to expose? Like aletheia said, many of you are not real atheists . . . you're just confused rebels seeking an excuse to assuage your troubled souls.