Numo86, you got everything missed and messed up. I know it is due to mental conditioning, it is impossible to reason outside what you have been indoctrinated with since you are a toddler.

Since you find the word chance uncomfortable, then change it to probability, it should make more sense. So we can now say you came to the world as a result of probability. The probability of you coming into the world can be put at 1billion to one, but when you consider that an ejaculation can release up to 10million sperms in a single session, then your parents only need a few sessions to achieve that probability. Same with life, even if the probability of life evolving out of non organic materials is 1billion to one, it has had over 4billion years of trial and error.

Everything you perceive as design today is just a state of temporary equilibrium. It will change tomorrow and new equilibriums(designs) would arise, like patterns on a sand dune.

How can you believe we came from dust and will return to dust. We have nothing in common with earth dust which is mainly composed of silicon, we are carbon based and have no silicon in out bodies. And when we die it is bacteria,worms and insects that would consume our bodies(if you are not cremated) and recycled to be used by other living things.
If you are talkng of star dust or star gasses, I would understand.

Gods are because men say they are. In ancient times, men quivered before the altars of Ra, Osiris or Horus. We don't even know them today. Blood once flowed before the altar of Baal, Zeus, Wooden or Ogun. Those altars exist no more. In today's world, Allah, Yahweh (or is it Jehovah), Buddha, Krishna reign supreme. Tomorrow, they will all be bagages of the past. Soon all gods shall end in the vestigial realm of human history. No wonder a great philosopher once wrote in 1899 that GOD IS DEAD!

Observe this case study for delusion:
1) Pastor Bimbo prayed, boarded a plane that eventually crashed and died. The lord's will is done. (i.e. her prayers were meaningless in god's scheme)
2) Pastor Bimbo was the sole survivor of that crash!!! Gbam!!! (need I say more of the commercial spin that would result from such spin of fate?)

As for me and my house,we shal continue to believ and serve d almighty God.God is more real than life itself,i feel empty without Him.there is a vaccum in every heart dat only God can fill.God is supreme!

The bible makes numerous refrences to existence of other gods, strting evn in genesis when it refered to the Elohim (plural of Eloh or El)as the creators of man. Even the symbolic serpent was obviously another god(perhaps an opposing one).
The Isrealites worshipped Baal, Ashtoret,Dammuzi or Tammuz, Lilith(the queen of heaven).
Even Jehova recognised other gods when , for atonement, he instructd them to bring two goats, one for him and the other(the scape goat) for Azazeel. He also recognizes other gods when he says" egypt and her gods shall see my power" and "Nebo(babylonian god) will be dismayed by my power".

My all time favourite is Psalms 82 which states(depending on which version of the infallible word of god that you are reading):
Jehovah sits in the assembly of gods where he and others  are judged". The Elohim later pronouce judgement on them saying" how long will ye judge unjustly?"  Ye are all gods, but you shall die as men".

wirinet:

Numo86, you got everything missed and messed up. I know it is due to mental conditioning, it is impossible to reason outside what you have been indoctrinated with since you are a toddler.

Since you find the word chance uncomfortable, then change it to probability, it should make more sense. So we can now say you came to the world as a result of probability. The probability of you coming into the world can be put at 1billion to one, but when you consider that an expulsion can release up to 10million Spermatozoa in a single session, then your parents only need a few sessions to achieve that probability. Same with life, even if the probability of life evolving out of non organic materials is 1billion to one, it has had over 4billion years of trial and error.

Everything you perceive as design today is just a state of temporary equilibrium. It will change tomorrow and new equilibriums(designs) would arise, like patterns on a sand dune.

How can you believe we came from dust and will return to dust. We have nothing in common with earth dust which is mainly composed of silicon, we are carbon based and have no silicon in out bodies. And when we die it is bacteria,worms and insects that would consume our bodies(if you are not cremated) and recycled to be used by other living things.
If you are talkng of star dust or star gasses, I would understand.

You are making a presumption of already existent things. Only already existent things could interact with probabilities. Nothingness contains no probabilities. The core question should be directed towards the conundrum of nothingness. Why something instead of nothing? That is the meat of the matter.

wirinet:

Numo86, you got everything missed and messed up. I know it is due to mental conditioning, it is impossible to reason outside what you have been indoctrinated with since you are a toddler.

Since you find the word chance uncomfortable, then change it to probability, it should make more sense. So we can now say you came to the world as a result of probability. The probability of you coming into the world can be put at 1billion to one, but when you consider that an expulsion can release up to 10million Spermatozoa in a single session, then your parents only need a few sessions to achieve that probability. Same with life, even if the probability of life evolving out of non organic materials is 1billion to one, it has had over 4billion years of trial and error.

Everything you perceive as design today is just a state of temporary equilibrium. It will change tomorrow and new equilibriums(designs) would arise, like patterns on a sand dune.

How can you believe we came from dust and will return to dust. We have nothing in common with earth dust which is mainly composed of silicon, we are carbon based and have no silicon in out bodies. And when we die it is bacteria,worms and insects that would consume our bodies(if you are not cremated) and recycled to be used by other living things.
If you are talkng of star dust or star gasses, I would understand.

Werent u indoctrinated tooare u d 1st atheist to exist, ?some1 did convince u to hold on to what u believe, even some sincere great scientists hav come to agree wit d fact that man and life did hav a beginin and that a supernatural being is behind it al, how much experiments hav u as an individual carried out to prove your stand as an atheist, we r all on 2 different sides tryin to prove what we believe in, bt ofcus it will take u more than forever to prove humans evolved, becos d evidence is all around us, and when d bible says we were made from dust its nt exaggeratin, let me define dust in its entirety, dust are fine particles of matter,light enough to be raised & borne easily by currents of air, volcanic eruptions,fires,& agricultural activities are among common causes of mineral dust, vegetable matter produces dust in d form of pollen,molds,plant fiber & seed parts, animals also indirectly produce dust,resulting from dried dung,fine hair& bacteria, So physically we are dust, its a scientific truth, all d elements of which d human body is composed are to b found in d dust from d ground as earlier defined, an adult human body is 65% oxygen,18% carbon,10% hydrogen,3% nitrogen,1.5% calcium and 1% phosphorous,wit d remainder been made up of other elements, so we were made from dusts, and to dust we'l return, silicon is not d only dust we have as we know, d soil & d dry earth too is dust, God created d soil too, so we are dust and wen u die u decompose to 1, :-), and symbolically wen we return to d dust it shows sign of lifelessness as d dust from which we were made, so both ways we are dusts and returnin to it,
And i can recall u said "Everything you perceive as design today is just a state of temporary equilibrium. It will change tomorrow and new equilibriums(designs) would arise, like patterns on a sand dune.",
So your stil waitin for things or humans to evolve, u'l wait till u grow grey and die and so will d generations of atheist continue to wait, mayb your thinkin pro-creation of living things in there various kinds will stop to give way to evolution, u must be mistaken, wen that happens meet me in d next world to tell me, becos its never gonna happen, even u are nt a product of evolution, u are an evidence of creation, cant u just see that, ?

Deep sight my old friend, how you dey? Hope you are doing fine.

The universe is predicted on probabilities. On the microscopic world the laws of probabilities reign supreme. You cannot be certain of anything or any event. You can only be certain of the probability of an event happening.

The universe forbids nothingness, to achieve a state of nothingness, you would need to go outside the known universe. Even in a vacuum you have what is called quantum fluctuations, which allows energy to pop in and out of existence.

wirinet:

You cannot be certain of anything or any event. You can only be certain of the probability of an event happening.

And you think you are certain that God does not exist?

^^^
Yes! For the simple reason it is human imagination with bias evidences. Like some of them having problem of excess [b]Dopamine [/b]releases in the brain telling you of holy ghost touch.

It was Thomas A. Edison that said "We don’t know a millionth of one percent about anything". Albert Einstein also said something similar by saying: "We still do not know one thousandth of one percent of what nature has revealed to us". And yet you will find wanna be atheists here claiming that they have absolute knowledge that there is no God.

^^^
You would gladly accept these men don't have your God at hearts, only in the time they found themselves. Yet, science has done a lot to correct some of their views in this present time.

Ppl preaching Christ and Ignorance together. Human knowledge threatens religion

all4naija:

^^^
You would gladly accept these men don't have your God at hearts, only in the time they found themselves. Yet, science has done a lot to correct some of their views in this present time.

Kay 17:

Ppl preaching Christ and Ignorance together. Human knowledge threatens religion

Let us test what they claimed in those quotes.  Tell us whether you have absolute knowledge of everything in this universe let alone outside it.

OLAADEGBU:

It was Thomas A. Edison that said "We don’t know a millionth of one percent about anything".  Albert Einstein also said something similar by saying:  "We still do not know one thousandth of one percent of what nature has revealed to us".  And yet you will find wanna be atheists here claiming that they have absolute knowledge that there is no God.

Come on! That is what I actually respond to in your comment.

Let us test what they claimed in those quotes.  Tell us whether you have absolute knowledge of everything in this universe let alone outside it.

Scientists have never said they know absolutely everything about things or nature but, religion happens to portrait God does. So, what are you on about with that one?

wirinet:

Deep sight my old friend, how you dey? Hope you are doing fine.

The universe is predicted on probabilities. On the microscopic world the laws of probabilities reign supreme. You cannot be certain of anything or any event. You can only be certain of the probability of an event happening.

The universe forbids nothingness, to achieve a state of nothingness, you would need to go outside the known universe. Even in a vacuum you have what is called quantum fluctuations, which allows energy to pop in and out of existence.

Hi Old pal. Not sure you got my meaning. The universe itself is an already existent thing. The core question is what triggered its existence. It is said to have started to expand from a point - a singularity. Why and how did this happen. Why did the singularity exist in the first place. I believe these are the questions that go to the meat of the matter, as you cannot have probabilities in a non-existent state. What accounts for existent states?

Hi Old pal. Not sure you got my meaning. The universe itself is an already existent thing. The core question is what triggered its existence. It is said to have started to expand from a point - a singularity. Why and how did this happen. Why did the singularity exist in the first place. I believe these are the questions that go to the meat of the matter, as you cannot have probabilities in a non-existent state. What accounts for existent states?

Sorry if I did not get you earlier.

I believe that there are three classes of knowledge, those that is known, those that is not yet known and those that is unknowable. The questions you ask fall in the category of those that is unknowable. I know it is difficult for out highly developed cerebrium to come to terms with the fact that some things are unknowable. So scientists and theists can speculate all they want, it would not change the fact.

We must understand our limitations, we are situated in and obscure planet in an obscure system in an obscure galaxy and maybe in an obscure multiverse, so to say out range of vision is limited is a gross understatement. It is made worse by the fact that we have only been able to see beyond out solar system in the last few decades. So the picture we have of the universe is just a snapshot of a few seconds in the eternity of time. It is with this snap shot that we are attempting to draw the complete structure of the nature and extent of the universe.

So what I believe is that the expansion we are witnessing now might be an event local to our perceivable part of our universe for the short time we have been able to observe it.

Peace

You guys go on to ask the question '' If God created the universe, then who created God, ?? '',
But ya'll fail to understand certain facts,
Suppose Bill Gates did create the first computer, and Programmed it to do basic logical stuffs like calculations, e.t.c and later, millions of other computer we're produced and sold worldwide to help ease the stress of executin' basic logic by yourself,
After a few years, upgrades are released to most computers, but not all of the computers in the world get the upgrades and some of tis' computers get advanced , Suppose other upgrades we're released and some computers didnt get the upgrades and it goes on and on, so definately some computers will definately be higher than others, Now tis' explains the factor of some people being civilised than others,
Now let's add another factor ( Virus ), Virus in the computer world would definately be an entity that represents evil because the intentions of it's execution is not of a good purpose rather a bad one, which in turn makes it evil. Putting that aside, we have an ( antivirus ) and entity that parries any form of evil ( in tis' case would be the virus ),
We have the processor acting as the conscience,
now put all of that aside and think for a second, the human created the computer. Every response a computer gives is as a result of our actions (what we've actually done to the computer), programs we install, tasks and duties we give it to do. We shutdown and turn them on whenever we like. So definately all results, images, texts and actions any computer initiates is as a result of our actions. No computer acts on it's own without an external entity, ( virus and other stuff that makes computers malfunction is as a result of our actions ),
But have we ever asked ourselves if this computers have a hidden conscience, do our actions count to tis' computers as good or evil, Do tis' computers ask who created them , Cuz clearly a computer cannot lookup on it's owner by itself, it's done by external forces

Now you'd be wonderin' what I'm gettin' at, But here's somethin' you can do, put God in place of ( Bill gates ), and the computers ( as we the humans ), and start askin' your questions all over again. Then you'll see that not all entity exist in the same form every where.
We've clearly been talkin' about God bein' omniscience meaning he knows how everythin' started and how everythin' will end. But we clearly forget that another factor '' Choice '' exist, tis' clearly states that our God is benevolent by givinin' us the free will to execute any action of choice,
Now choice on it's own has many attributes unknown to us, we dont know if our choices causes a change in the space time continum, so until we can clearly clarify the factor Choice we cannot question God's omniscience.

Now let's divert our attention from that and face what's at hand, We've made refrence to certain philosophers like P .J. Zwart and others, But we forget clearly that tis' philosophers are humans like us and are not omniscient beings, So clearly they dont know how anythin' started and they dont know how everythin' will end, So please if you wanna argue that the universe existed on it's own or as a result of molecular bondin's or any other form you think the world came to place, please bring theories and text's with proof this theories we're quoted by the universe itself and some some human tryin' to act omniscient, So until then God does exist.

This might not be a logical argument, but tis' is my own opinion.

wirinet:


Sorry if I did not get you earlier.

I believe that there are three classes of knowledge, those that is known, those that is not yet known and those that is unknowable. The questions you ask fall in the category of those that is unknowable. I know it is difficult for out highly developed cerebrium to come to terms with the fact that some things are unknowable. So scientists and theists can speculate all they want, it would not change the fact.

We must understand our limitations, we are situated in and obscure planet in an obscure system in an obscure galaxy and maybe in an obscure multiverse, so to say out range of vision is limited is a gross understatement. It is made worse by the fact that we have only been able to see beyond out solar system in the last few decades. So the picture we have of the universe is just a snapshot of a few seconds in the eternity of time. It is with this snap shot that we are attempting to draw the complete structure of the nature and extent of the universe.

So what I believe is that the expansion we are witnessing now might be an event local to our perceivable part of our universe for the short time we have been able to observe it.

Peace

Beautifully said.

Boss Ttdiamonds:

You guys go on to ask the question '' If God created the universe, then who created God, ?? '',
But ya'll fail to understand certain facts,
Suppose Bill Gates did create the first computer, and Programmed it to do basic logical stuffs like calculations, e.t.c and later, millions of other computer we're produced and sold worldwide to help ease the stress of executin' basic logic by yourself,
After a few years, upgrades are released to most computers,  but not all of the computers in the world  get the upgrades and some of tis' computers get advanced ,  Suppose other upgrades we're released and some computers didnt get the upgrades  and it goes on and on, so definately some computers will definately be higher than others,  Now tis' explains the factor of some people being civilised than others,
Now let's add another factor ( Virus ),  Virus in the computer world would definately be an entity that represents evil because the intentions of it's execution is not of a good purpose rather a bad one, which in turn makes it evil. Putting that aside, we have an ( antivirus ) and entity that parries any form of evil ( in tis' case would be the virus ),
We have the processor acting as the conscience,  
now put all of that aside and think for a second, the human created the computer. Every response a computer gives is as a result of our actions (what we've actually done to the computer), programs we install, tasks and duties we give it to do. We shutdown and turn them on whenever we like. So definately all results, images, texts and actions any computer initiates is as a result of our actions. No computer acts on it's own without an external entity,  ( virus and other stuff that makes computers malfunction is as a result of our actions ),
But have we ever asked ourselves if this computers have a hidden conscience, do our actions count to tis' computers as good or evil,  Do tis' computers ask who created them ,  Cuz clearly a computer cannot lookup on it's owner by itself, it's done by external forces

Now you'd be wonderin' what I'm gettin' at,  But here's somethin' you can do, put God in place of ( Bill gates ), and the computers ( as we the humans ), and start askin' your questions all over again. Then you'll see that not all entity exist in the same form every where.
We've clearly been talkin' about God bein' omniscience meaning he knows how everythin' started and how everythin' will end. But we clearly forget that another factor '' Choice '' exist, tis' clearly states that our God is benevolent by givinin' us the free will to execute any action of choice,  
Now choice on it's own has many attributes unknown to us, we dont know if our choices causes a change in the space time continum, so until we can clearly clarify the factor Choice we cannot question God's omniscience.

Now let's divert our attention from that and face what's at hand,  We've made refrence to certain philosophers like P .J. Zwart and others,  But we forget clearly that tis' philosophers are humans like us and are not omniscient beings,  So clearly they dont know how anythin' started and they dont know how everythin' will end,  So please if you wanna argue that the universe existed on it's own or as a result of molecular bondin's or any other form you think the world came to place, please bring theories and text's with proof this theories we're quoted by the universe itself and some some human tryin' to act omniscient,  So until then God does exist.

This might not be a logical argument, but tis' is my own opinion.

What an interesting story that can never be related to the topic at hand. The topic is who created God? Then from you comment you will find out that so called God is drawn out of your curiosity with what you don't know. And, how will the computer know that  it was created by Bill Gates?You  see where your analogy didn't fit into this topic.

Human being a specie that can reason, unlike computers, would be able to gather some information through discoveries, and help to relate them with real world phenomenon. Isn't that more affirmative than some doctrine of a God, with lots of baseless evidences?

The issue remains"did god create the universe?", and if so, as many believe, who or through what celestial mechanism did god arise or evolve from? In other words, assuming that we all believe in a god as the creator, we are now interested in god's biography.
God, in whatever dimension that he exists, must, by necessecity, have a biography( a beginning). To say that he does not, is , in my mind, stretching our imaginations too far.

 Refering to the analogy of bill gates and computers: we know that Bill gates has a biography, even if the computers he created are not aware or not cablable of coming to tthat knowlwdge.

@Deepsight:

I have heard it repeated many times on this forum that god exist outside our physical universe in another dimension outside of time and space. If so, that would imply that he created our physical universe from physical nothing or nothingness. Not so?
while it is quite difficult to envisage a universe that sprang from nothing, it is equally difficult to evisage a singularity that would have, in its own space and dimension, also arise from nothing.
It is the same conundrum .
If there was a mechanism that brough about a singularity, then why cant we see the universe as that singularity.?

On one hand, the problem with Religionists and Theists alike is that they don't want to admit that there is no basic evidence to prove their gods exist in the way they postulate. On the other hand, Atheists are freethinkers alike and they are on disputing this primitive lies about gods from a reasonable perspective. That is, they never said they have the answer but not this gods Religionists are talking about either are the answers.

Many people come here to contribute to the topic without having an iota of knowing what Atheists are trying to explain in the light of facts. Many of them think if Atheists didn't have the answers to who created the world they shouldn't dispute gods'. In other words, if Atheists don't have answers they shouldn't exposed what is false about gods. That is so funny. Yet they go on arguing about each others gods. It is clear that has been the way Religionists have been indoctrinating people with false doctrines.

all4naija:

On one hand, the problem with Religionists and Theists alike is that they don't want to admit that there is no basic evidence to prove their gods exist in the way they postulate. On the other hand, Atheists are freethinkers alike and they are on disputing this primitive lies about gods from a reasonable perspective. That is, they never said they have the answer but not this gods Religionists are talking about either are the answers.

Many people come here to contribute to the topic without having an iota of knowing what Atheists are trying to explain in the light of facts. Many of them think if Atheists didn't have the answers to who created the world they shouldn't dispute gods'. In other words, if Atheists don't have answers they shouldn't exposed what is false about gods. That is so funny. Yet they go on arguing about each others gods. It is clear that has been the way Religionists have been indoctrinating people with false doctrines.

Logic can not be used to proof God's existence beyond saying that Man created God. To be sincere, I believe Man created God.
Also, Atheists are not likely to attack this statement: God exists, but he does not create human.

bayooooooo:

Logic can not be used to proof God's existence beyond saying that Man created God. To be sincere, I believe Man created God.
Also, Atheists are not likely to attack this statement: God exists, but he does not create human.

No!!!I disagree with you on that one. Atheists basic argument is non-existence of a god or gods!In other word, believing in gods is lacked of sound reasoning.

First, the Bible says that God is the source of life. (Ps. 36:9) Life did not arise and cannot arise spontaneously from lifeless material. This is in complete agreement with scientific laws and experimental tests. The laws of statistics, the law of entropy, calculations from thermodynamics and kinetics all converge on the conclusion that spontaneous generation of life cannot occur. Older reports of spontaneous generation are given no credence since the experiments of Pasteur. In controlled experiments, it just does not happen. Examination of soil from the moon and chemical tests on the surface of Mars verify that life has not arisen on those planets.
Secondly, the Bible says that every living thing brings forth its own kind of offspring. (Genesis 1:11, 21, 24) Neither the evidence from paleontology nor experiments in breeding or mutation have ever been shown to refute this principle. Fossil remains from ancient geologic strata of species that are still alive are identical with present-day forms. Wide diversity within a given kind may appear both in nature and in breeding experiments, but in no case does it ever pass beyond the limits to produce a new kind.
So wats d point?, there is a creator up there that started life and everytin living, so atheists beta start respectin Him, he created u & me that is why we can pro-create, got it?

Wrong. We have found evidence of microscopic life on soil from mars. the is growing evidence that life may have existed on mars as far back as 65million to 3 million yrs ago.

But the question is ,who created god.?
If god is alive, surely he must arisen from a source.
whyt do you people always choose to ignore this question.?

God is the Only One Who is not created because He is the Only Creator.

Ultimately, The ULTIMATE CREATOR WHICH IS GOD IS NOT CREATED.

Sweetnecta:

God is the Only One Who is not created because He is the Only Creator.

Ultimately, The ULTIMATE CREATOR WHICH IS GOD IS NOT CREATED.

Its comforting, but does it make any sense? It doesn't make sense to say that universe (that we can see and live in)evolved on its own but it makes sense to you to say that it was created by god(imaginary) who is uncreated?

That seems to me to be more absurd.
No matter how deeply you believe this notion, can you agree with me, sweetnecta, that its still just a notion?

plaetton:


Wrong. We have found evidence of microscopic life on soil from mars.

the is growing evidence that life may have existed on mars as far back as 65million to 3 million yrs ago.

But the question is, who created god.?

If god is alive, surely he must arisen from a source.

whyt do you people always choose to ignore this question.?

Sweetnecta:


God is the Only One Who is not created because He is the Only Creator.

Ultimately, The ULTIMATE CREATOR WHICH IS GOD IS NOT CREATED.

plaetton:


Its comforting, but does it make any sense?

It doesn't make sense to say that universe (that we can see and live in) evolved on its own

but it makes sense to you to say that it was created by god (imaginary) who is uncreated?

That seems to me to be more absurd.

No matter how deeply you believe this notion, can you agree with me, sweetnecta, that its still just a notion?

^
God is the first cause that just was,

causing but itself uncaused

The PM (i.e. Prime Mover) the unchanging changer, unmoved mover, uncaused cause, uncreated creator is God

You can argue all you can that, it is fiction,

that it is a human mind's frivolous figment of imagination

but then, no one ever has had luck proving or disproving the existence of God on logical grounds anyway

Daiquiri:

^
God is the first cause that just was,

causing but itself uncaused

The PM (i.e. Prime Mover) the unchanging changer, unmoved mover, uncaused cause, uncreated creator is God

You can argue all you can that, it is fiction,

that it is a human mind's frivolous figment of imagination

but then, no one ever has had luck proving or disproving the existence of God on logical grounds anyway

Sorry mate. You have just fallen into the same quagmire.
Prime mover, unchanging changer, unmoved mover, uncaused cause, uncreated creator. What other superlatives can you add ?. Is not the same human mind's frivolous figment of imagination(your own words)?.
Do you see what I mean?
I am speculating, with no certainty, that god may not have been necessary to create the universe. You, on the other hand, are claiming with certainty ,that he did. If you cannot show proof, other than the use or superlative wordplay,then surely ,you are the one whose imaginations have gone too far. Not so?

u funny ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo thats is good

who created God? are you kidding me? you are seriously asking this question and you think you will get an answer? goodluck in finding d answer.

A more rational position. The universe created itself. Who agrees with me ?