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Ministry To Jws, Part 10 - The Great Crowd - Religion - Nairaland

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Ministry To Jws, Part 9 - Christ's Presence / Ministry To Jws, Part 2 - The 1914 Theology / Will The “Great Crowd” Be On Earth When Armageddon Breaks Out? (2) (3) (4)

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Ministry To Jws, Part 10 - The Great Crowd by Sand2022: 8:38pm On Mar 17
The Great Crowd is mentioned at Rev 7:9. The account says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

JW theology has changed overtime with regards to these group, but let's focus on the current doctrine.

In a September, 2019 Watchtower, this is said:

10 "Since 1935, Jehovah’s Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John’s vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth"

The question in the front burner is, is this group going to heaven or will they spend eternity on earth?

Rev 7:9 says that they are before the throne and before the lamb.

This would certainly mean that they are in heaven. However, JW object that this doesn't mean that they are in heaven. The publication says:

"9 In 1935 the identity of the great crowd in John’s vision was clarified. Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1) They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”​—including the wicked—​are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth. This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven​—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.​—Rev. 5:10."

It is true that at Matt 25:31,32 the nations being gathered before Jesus probably may not be literal. Yet we need to understand that we just don't know how this scripture will be fulfilled because Jesus will physically come to earth again. But let's go with this view that it is not possible. However, the case under discussion is the book of revelation. Let us analyse some verses.

Verse 14, 15 says:

So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 [b]That is why[/b]they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

Notice the reason why they are before the throne. Because they have washed their robes and made it white in the blood of the lamb.

In what way did they wash their robe? JWs say that they do this by having a righteous standing and clean conscience having exercised faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. This is where it gets messier. Now bear rev 7:15 in mind. Let's substitute.

They have a clean conscience and righteous standing, "that is why they" 'exercise strong faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice'.

That is how the account will appear if we substitute the JW understanding into that scripture. It doesn't make sense.

By saying "that is why" in that verse 15, it shows that their washing their robes qualified them for a reward, namely, standing before the throne. This will mean that their standing before the throne and the lamb can't be figurative. Remember that from verse 14 is the Elder's explanation of whom this great crowd is. In that case, you shouldn't be looking at things figurative, unless there is a strong indication for that. There is none here.

What does before the throne mean?

The 144,000 is said to sing before the throne at Rev 14:3. The JW believe that these ones singing before the throne means that they are literally in heaven. So they don't seem to disagree that standing before the throne can mean being before the throne in heaven. They just don't want to assign that meaning to the great crowd, and that is strange because of what is said further after they are described as standing before the throne.

Rev 7:15 says they render to God sacred service in his temple day and night. The GB says that this means that they serve Him in the earthly courtyard of the temple. They keep stretching the bible record out of its logical sequence. Because they detached "standing before the throne" from its logical scriptural meaning, they would need to assign "temple" another meaning. But the meaning of the verse lines up clearly. They were in heaven because of washing their robes, and their in heaven, they serve God in his temple. We don't need to squeeze the text so that it can align to our other wrong doctrine. This text has suffered in the hand of JWs because one of their theological error elsewhere demands that this text is assigned another meaning.

This temple seem to be connected with the throne of God and of the Lamb. These thrones they serve is the thrones in the New Jerusalem. See why I say so.

Rev 22
3 And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;

Did you notice the two thrones are in the city? And that sacred service is offered there? Perhaps the two thrones of God and of Christ is the temple being refered to. Please confirm in Rev 21:22.

The third reason why this group is heavenly is because of what is said about their robe.

Rev 3:4,5 shows that white garment is given to conquerors who obviously will reign with Jesus. We see this in action at Rev 6:11 where the anointed who finished their earthly course is given White robes. It should be noted that after chapter 6 reward, the next time we see others rewarded is at Rev 7:9-15. This lines up logically. This great crowd must be in heaven. Notice another thing said about the reward of those with white robe that is interesting.

Rev 22: 14

14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

Compare with rev 7:14

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. The Great crowd is usshered into the spring of Waters of life according to Rev 7: . The questions is, where is this water of life found?

The marginal reference will take us to Rev 22:1,2. Let's read:

And he showed me a river of water of life[, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations."

Notice that the river flows from the throne of God and of the lamb. And also that the river has trees of life in it. Our next question, where is the tree of life found?

Rev 2:7
7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

JWs believe that this paradise is in heaven.

Rev 22

14 Happy are those who wash their robes so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

You will notice a connection between the tree of life to the holy city, new Jerusalem and the paradise of God. So the Great crowd would have access to all these. Why will we not look at them as being in heaven?
Re: Ministry To Jws, Part 10 - The Great Crowd by Michael547(m): 10:15pm On Mar 18
Sand2022:
The Great Crowd is mentioned at Rev 7:9. The account says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

JW theology has changed overtime with regards to these group, but let's focus on the current doctrine.

In a September, 2019 Watchtower, this is said:

10 "Since 1935, Jehovah’s Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John’s vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth"

The question in the front burner is, is this group going to heaven or will they spend eternity on earth?

Rev 7:9 says that they are before the throne and before the lamb.

This would certainly mean that they are in heaven. However, JW object that this doesn't mean that they are in heaven. The publication says:

"9 In 1935 the identity of the great crowd in John’s vision was clarified. Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1) They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”​—including the wicked—​are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth. This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven​—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.​—Rev. 5:10."

It is true that at Matt 25:31,32 the nations being gathered before Jesus probably may not be literal. Yet we need to understand that we just don't know how this scripture will be fulfilled because Jesus will physically come to earth again. But let's go with this view that it is not possible. However, the case under discussion is the book of revelation. Let us analyse some verses.

Verse 14, 15 says:

So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 [b]That is why[/b]they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

Notice the reason why they are before the throne. Because they have washed their robes and made it white in the blood of the lamb.

In what way did they wash their robe? JWs say that they do this by having a righteous standing and clean conscience having exercised faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. This is where it gets messier. Now bear rev 7:15 in mind. Let's substitute.

They have a clean conscience and righteous standing, "that is why they" 'exercise strong faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice'.

That is how the account will appear if we substitute the JW understanding into that scripture. It doesn't make sense.

By saying "that is why" in that verse 15, it shows that their washing their robes qualified them for a reward, namely, standing before the throne. This will mean that their standing before the throne and the lamb can't be figurative. Remember that from verse 14 is the Elder's explanation of whom this great crowd is. In that case, you shouldn't be looking at things figurative, unless there is a strong indication for that. There is none here.

What does before the throne mean?

The 144,000 is said to sing before the throne at Rev 14:3. The JW believe that these ones singing before the throne means that they are literally in heaven. So they don't seem to disagree that standing before the throne can mean being before the throne in heaven. They just don't want to assign that meaning to the great crowd, and that is strange because of what is said further after they are described as standing before the throne.

Rev 7:15 says they render to God sacred service in his temple day and night. The GB says that this means that they serve Him in the earthly courtyard of the temple. They keep stretching the bible record out of its logical sequence. Because they detached "standing before the throne" from its logical scriptural meaning, they would need to assign "temple" another meaning. But the meaning of the verse lines up clearly. They were in heaven because of washing their robes, and their in heaven, they serve God in his temple. We don't need to squeeze the text so that it can align to our other wrong doctrine. This text has suffered in the hand of JWs because one of their theological error elsewhere demands that this text is assigned another meaning.

This temple seem to be connected with the throne of God and of the Lamb. These thrones they serve is the thrones in the New Jerusalem. See why I say so.

Rev 22
3 And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;

Did you notice the two thrones are in the city? And that sacred service is offered there? Perhaps the two thrones of God and of Christ is the temple being refered to. Please confirm in Rev 21:22.

The third reason why this group is heavenly is because of what is said about their robe.

Rev 3:4,5 shows that white garment is given to conquerors who obviously will reign with Jesus. We see this in action at Rev 6:11 where the anointed who finished their earthly course is given White robes. It should be noted that after chapter 6 reward, the next time we see others rewarded is at Rev 7:9-15. This lines up logically. This great crowd must be in heaven. Notice another thing said about the reward of those with white robe that is interesting.

Rev 22: 14

14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

Compare with rev 7:14

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. The Great crowd is usshered into the spring of Waters of life according to Rev 7: . The questions is, where is this water of life found?

The marginal reference will take us to Rev 22:1,2. Let's read:

And he showed me a river of water of life[, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations."

Notice that the river flows from the throne of God and of the lamb. And also that the river has trees of life in it. Our next question, where is the tree of life found?

Rev 2:7
7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

JWs believe that this paradise is in heaven.

Rev 22

14 Happy are those who wash their robes so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

You will notice a connection between the tree of life to the holy city, new Jerusalem and the paradise of God. So the Great crowd would have access to all these. Why will we not look at them as being in heaven?
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