Mr. Sceptic—you look up into the great vast sky at the MASTER CLOCK of the universe, which never misses a second—the perfect watch by which we must constantly set all our imperfect man-made watches—and you tell me, ‘That all just HAPPENED! There was no Great Watchmaker! No Master MIND thought out and planned that vast universe, brought it into being, set each star and planet in its own exact place, and started the myriad heavenly bodies coursing through space, each in its prescribed orbit, in its orderly precision. No, it just fashioned itself, put itself together, wound itself up, and started itself running. There was no Intelligence—no planning—NO CREATION—NO GOD!
 
Do you say that to me?
 
If you can, I answer that I do not respect your intelligence. And the God I acknowledge replies to you, ‘The FOOL hath said in his heart, There is no God!’ (Ps. 14:1; 53:1.)
 
If you can look about you, and observe how intelligently PLANNED and executed is everything in nature and in plant and animal life—everything we see except the bungling, botching, polluting of God’s beautiful handiwork by the clumsy hand of God-ignoring-and-rejecting MAN—and then say you doubt the existence of an all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful Creator GOD, then I do not have much faith either in your rational processes or your sincerity as a seeker of the TRUTH!”

egad madame! but i am a sceptic

Spread the word!

BoboYekini: egad madame! but i am a sceptic

May the Lord have mercy on ye

sceptics and atheists are the products of misguided religious followers who do not even make effort to know their scriptures talk less of practicing it. if the religious people had focused on the main tenets of their religion which is mostly love i.e loving their neighbours as themselves most of the problems we have now will not arise. but what we have now is bombing of places of worship and reprisal attacks all in the name of God while the sceptics and atheists stand aside and watch in disdain. then after the killings you will come out the next day and tell them to believe in the existence of God.
i would kindly suggest that you guys should leave the sceptics and atheists alone. they are not the problem. misguided religious followers are the problem and they are the one you should focus your energy on. clean out your houses first ,then and only then can you expect a visitor to come in and be comfortable.

It is all well and good to leave the sceptics and atheists alone. In fact, until recently most people (Christians especially) on the Board did not pay any particular attention to them. If anything, the Christians were challenging one another in particular in respect of false and fraudulent practices that have crept into some forms (especially) of Christianity.

The reason it seems people are paying attention to the sceptics and atheists is because many of them have very clearly constituted themselves into a nuisance with their obnoxiousness. Take aside the obnoxiousness, many of us Christians would not in general have a problem discussing with sceptics and atheists.

Enigma: It is all well and good to leave the sceptics and atheists alone. In fact, until recently most people (Christians especially) on the Board did not pay any particular attention to them. If anything, the Christians were challenging one another in particular in respect of false and fraudulent practices that have crept into some forms (especially) of Christianity.

The reason it seems people are paying attention to the sceptics and atheists is because many of them have very clearly constituted themselves into a nuisance with their obnoxiousness. Take aside the obnoxiousness, many of us Christians would not in general have a problem discussing with sceptics and atheists.

true

Enigma: It is all well and good to leave the sceptics and atheists alone. In fact, until recently most people (Christians especially) on the Board did not pay any particular attention to them. If anything, the Christians were challenging one another in particular in respect of false and fraudulent practices that have crept into some forms (especially) of Christianity.

The reason it seems people are paying attention to the sceptics and atheists is because many of them have very clearly constituted themselves into a nuisance with their obnoxiousness. Take aside the obnoxiousness, many of us Christians would not in general have a problem discussing with sceptics and atheists.

Don't you think the Christians here actually contribute to their skepticism? The constant squabbles and endless display of confusion among believers encourages them to mock and ridicule believers. If its not tithers vs non tithers, then is Catholics vs non Catholics, young earth creationist vs old earth creationist or proponents of the prosperity gospels vs those against, with each side using the Bible and laying claim to the holy spirit as their source of revelation and explanation.

Ishilove: Mr. Sceptic—you look up into the great vast sky at the MASTER CLOCK of the universe, which never misses a second—the perfect watch by which we must constantly set all our imperfect man-made watches—and you tell me, ‘That all just HAPPENED! There was no Great Watchmaker! No Master MIND thought out and planned that vast universe, brought it into being, set each star and planet in its own exact place, and started the myriad heavenly bodies coursing through space, each in its prescribed orbit, in its orderly precision. No, it just fashioned itself, put itself together, wound itself up, and started itself running. There was no Intelligence—no planning—NO CREATION—NO GOD!
 
Do you say that to me?
 
If you can, I answer that I do not respect your intelligence. And the God I acknowledge replies to you, ‘The FOOL hath said in his heart, There is no God!’ (Ps. 14:1; 53:1.)
 
If you can look about you, and observe how intelligently PLANNED and executed is everything in nature and in plant and animal life—everything we see except the bungling, botching, polluting of God’s beautiful handiwork by the clumsy hand of God-ignoring-and-rejecting MAN—and then say you doubt the existence of an all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful Creator GOD, then I do not have much faith either in your rational processes or your sincerity as a seeker of the TRUTH!”

Let me put on the hat of the skeptic and ask you a question. Where is your evidence to show that the universe and everything we see was created by a single entity that speaks the human language. Provide the evidence please. Don't use words like everything is in order and everything that exist must have a creator. Just point to the evidence that shows that everything was created by a single entity that has the image of a man. Please do that for me.

dalaman:


Let me put on the hat of the skeptic and ask you a question. Where is your evidence to show that the universe and everything we see was created by a single entity that speaks the human language. Provide the evidence please. Don't use words like everything is in order and everything that exist must have a creator. Just point to the evidence that shows that everything was created by a single entity that has the image of a man. Please do that for me.

Stop using reverse psychology.

The burden of proof is on you guys, you keep saying there is no God , which is fine, now tell us how did the universe, the earth in particular come to be, how did we come to be here on this planet, Spaghetti monster ?

Admit it, you guys have no answers to anything, you are still looking and will continue to look till this world all folds up.

dalaman:

Don't you think the Christians here actually contribute to their skepticism? The constant squabbles and endless display of confusion among believers encourages them to mock and ridicule believers. If its not tithers vs non tithers, then is Catholics vs non Catholics, young earth creationist vs old earth creationist or proponents of the prosperity gospels vs those against, with each side using the Bible and laying claim to the holy spirit as their source of revelation and explanation.

You see the keyword highlighted in red for you? "Contribute" to is not the same as cause. The cause is something else altogether --- something within.

In any event the "scepticism" does not take us by surprise; it had been looooong foretold.

Meanwhile bear in mind that if Christians don't challenge one another, what we then get is the accusation (as implicit in the post immediately above my first here) that Christians are not and should be putting their own house in order.

frosbel:

Stop using reverse psychology.

The burden of proof is on you guys, you keep saying there is no God , which is fine, now tell us how did the universe, the earth in particular come to be, how did we come to be here on this planet, Spaghetti monster ?

This is not reverse psychology. The no God claim came about when the God claim was made and it is based on the claims of those the put forth the God claim that the no God claim stands. You claim that there is a single creator of the universe, the entity exist in a human form, the entity is of the male gender, he speaks the human language, and wants people to come and be with him in a place without a location when they die. I say it is not true because there is no such evidence to show that there is a single entity that created the universe simply because that entity has never spoken to me and billions like me and it has also never communicated to me and billions like me even though it is alleged that the entity has a human voice and can speak to all of humanity and it has never appeared to me or billions like me.

Where is your evidence that proves or supports your assertions? Where is your evidence to show that the entire universe was created by a single entity that exist in the human form?

I don't know how the universe came to be and I am not making any claims, you are the one that is claiming to know how and who is responsible for the universe, so provide your evidence or stop making the claims if you have no evidence to back it up.

Skeptic, arent we all.

Enigma:


You see the keyword highlighted in red for you? "Contribute" to is not the same as cause. The cause is something else altogether --- something within.

In any event the "scepticism" does not take us by surprise; it had been looooong foretold.

Meanwhile bear in mind that if Christians don't challenge one another, what we then get is the accusation (as implicit in the post immediately above my first here) that Christians are not and should be putting their own house in order.

Every religion lays claim to the part highlighted, Muslims, Hindus etc all claim that their holy books claim that many people will disbelieve and mock its claims and as such, they are not to be taken seriously because the divine author(s) of the holy books have blinded the eyes of the skeptics or the devil has blinded their eyes. The point is a moot point since most religions lay claim to it in my opinion.

As for the constant squabbles over interpretation, doctrines and religious way of life, it seems to me that it has always been the culture of Christianity. No two believers, believe the same thing. There is no universally acceptable Christian doctrine, tradition or method of interpreting the scriptures. Christians have never put their house in order when it comes to dissent and counter dissent.

^^^ As for us Christians, our salvation does not rest on doctrine; rather it rests on a person.

Nevertheless, we have a duty and we are enjoined to contend for the faith --- so we must do it.

It is natural that there will be different interpretations of things ---- it is human nature.

Even science, which actually does involve some chicanery as well, "has its moments" as I pointed out recently:

see "world expert" or "world leading" Darwinians fighting now on erm, well, in the final analysis, speculation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/richard-dawkins-edward-o-_b_1588510.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jun/24/battle-of-the-professors

frosbel:

true

seconded

Ishilove: Mr. Sceptic—you look up into the great vast sky at the MASTER CLOCK of the universe, which never misses a second—the perfect watch by which we must constantly set all our imperfect man-made watches—and you tell me, ‘That all just HAPPENED! There was no Great Watchmaker! No Master MIND thought out and planned that vast universe, brought it into being, set each star and planet in its own exact place, and started the myriad heavenly bodies coursing through space, each in its prescribed orbit, in its orderly precision. No, it just fashioned itself, put itself together, wound itself up, and started itself running. There was no Intelligence—no planning—NO CREATION—NO GOD!

What clock are you talking about? I also hope you're not confusing time for clocks because there actually are man-made clocks that are more accurate in reporting the time than the rotation of the earth.
The position of the planets is decided by physical laws so with or without a God, if those laws were present, the planets would be where they are. In fact, a God would cause disturbances of the position of planets by e.g stopping the rotation of the earth.

Ishilove:  
Do you say that to me?
 
If you can, I answer that I do not respect your intelligence. And the God I acknowledge replies to you, ‘The FOOL hath said in his heart, There is no God!’ (Ps. 14:1; 53:1.)

Excellent. What if what the skeptic says "I don't believe in the God that you claim made that statement". Would that satisfy you?

Ishilove:
If you can look about you, and observe how intelligently PLANNED and executed is everything in nature and in plant and animal life—everything we see except the bungling, botching, polluting of God’s beautiful handiwork by the clumsy hand of God-ignoring-and-rejecting MAN—and then say you doubt the existence of an all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful Creator GOD, then I do not have much faith either in your rational processes or your sincerity as a seeker of the TRUTH!”

Really? Intelligently planned and executed? Now what sort of planning went into creating the tape-worm and the hook worm? The malaria parasite and the Onchocerca that survives by living in the eye of their victim?
I'm sorry but I have to say that a God who does this is so incompetent and clumsy that he would be fired if he is to take credit for it.

benodic:
sceptics and atheists are the products of misguided religious followers who do not even make effort to know their scriptures talk less of practicing it. if the religious people had focused on the main tenets of their religion which is mostly love i.e loving their neighbours as themselves most of the problems we have now will not arise. but what we have now is bombing of places of worship and reprisal attacks all in the name of God while the sceptics and atheists stand aside and watch in disdain. then after the killings you will come out the next day and tell them to believe in the existence of God.
i would kindly suggest that you guys should leave the sceptics and atheists alone. they are not the problem. misguided religious followers are the problem and they are the one you should focus your energy on. clean out your houses first ,then and only then can you expect a visitor to come in and be comfortable.

Those religious texts are nothing to write home about. Have you actually read the Bible and noticed the sorts of acts the God commanded people to commit in his name?
Those texts aren't all love, happiness and rainbows, those texts (at least until someone works up the courage to revise them) are terrible sources of information on how one should treat their fellow man.

thehomer:

What clock are you talking about? I also hope you're not confusing time for clocks because there actually are man-made clocks that are more accurate in reporting the time than the rotation of the earth.
The position of the planets is decided by physical laws so with or without a God, if those laws were present, the planets would be where they are. In fact, a God would cause disturbances of the position of planets by e.g stopping the rotation of the earth.

Sorry mate but the bolded just makes no sense.

Laws are not there by themselves , to suggest otherwise will be quite funny. Laws make the difference between order and disorder. For example in the UK , we have LAWs enacted by the government which creates a society of order. Without these laws we will have anarchy.

Same thing with the laws of Physics, they are not there by themselves, the mere fact for their existence and the order which they bring to your universe is enough reason to believe in at least a source of governance somewhere in the universe. For us Christians it is GOD that sustains the universe by his power.

Excellent. What if what the skeptic says "I don't believe in the God that you claim made that statement". Would that satisfy you?

We don't care what atheists believe in , they seem to be the ones obsessed with the religion of others.

Really? Intelligently planned and executed? Now what sort of planning went into creating the tape-worm and the hook worm? The malaria parasite and the Onchocerca that survives by living in the eye of their victim?
I'm sorry but I have to say that a God who does this is so incompetent and clumsy that he would be fired if he is to take credit for it.

Should not bother you since there is no GOD.

thehomer:

Those religious texts are nothing to write home about. Have you actually read the Bible and noticed the sorts of acts the God commanded people to commit in his name?
Those texts aren't all love, happiness and rainbows, those texts (at least until someone works up the courage to revise them) are terrible sources of information on how one should treat their fellow man.

Anyone can read the bible without the proper historical and contextual perspective , stop fighting blind, take some time to do a well grounded research before making bogus statements.

frosbel:

Sorry mate but the bolded just makes no sense.

Laws are not there by themselves , to suggest otherwise will be quite funny. Laws make the difference between order and disorder. For example in the UK , we have LAWs enacted by the government which creates a society of order. Without these laws we will have anarchy.

Same thing with the laws of Physics, they are not there by themselves, the mere fact for their existence and the order which they bring to your universe is enough reason to believe in at least a source of governance somewhere in the universe. For us Christians it is GOD that sustains the universe by his power.

You have committed a fallacy of ambiguity in saying that the laws made by humans are similar to the laws of physics therefore both must have been made by someone. Human laws are prescriptive while physical laws are descriptive. To confirm this, just ask yourself why some people are in prison. Hint: it is because they broke some human laws. But, have you ever tried to break a physical law? Go ahead and try to defy the physical laws by jumping off a building and flapping your arms in anticipation of flying.
In summary, physical laws are not like societal laws in the way you're trying to apply them.

frosbel:
We don't care what atheists believe in , they seem to be the ones obsessed with the religion of others.

As well they should because some of those people's religions are demonstrably harmful.

frosbel:
Should not bother you since there is no GOD.

You should because you think the God did a good job. I pointed out a bad job and you just run away saying you have no answer. That is being intellectually lazy or dishonest.

frosbel:

Anyone can read the bible without the proper historical and contextual perspective , stop fighting blind, take some time to do a well grounded research before making bogus statements.

What is wrong with you? You issued a challenge here and this was my response and what did you do? You simply ran away only to rage here when you're yet to reply to the questions posed by your line of thought. Why don't you go back and post a response?

thehomer:

You have committed a fallacy of ambiguity in saying that the laws made by humans are similar to the laws of physics therefore both must have been made by someone. Human laws are prescriptive while physical laws are descriptive. To confirm this, just ask yourself why some people are in prison. Hint: it is because they broke some human laws. But, have you ever tried to break a physical law? Go ahead and try to defy the physical laws by jumping off a building and flapping your arms in anticipation of flying.
In summary, physical laws are not like societal laws in the way you're trying to apply them

Nonsense.

Laws are Laws , if human laws are broken there will be societal chaos, if the laws of physics are broken there will be universal chaos.

I was making an analogy , surely it is not hard to understand this.

And it does quite honestly beggar belief , that an 'intelligent' being will suggest the laws of physics which are quite complex and consistent , were the result of some freak accident , how much sillier can it get.

Laws whether Human or Physics have been provisioned by someone not by random chance, to suggest otherwise is just plain arrogance .

As well they should because some of those people's religions are demonstrably harmful.

Cannot be more harmful that the acts committed by atheists both as a body ( communism, Marxism, etc ) and on an individual level.

Atheism is a threat to the moral fabric of society and in most cases a downright nuisance and foulness to our good senses.

You should because you think the God did a good job. I pointed out a bad job and you just run away saying you have no answer. That is being intellectually lazy or dishonest.

No basis for arguement, God does not exist , find another reason , oh hypocrisy

frosbel:

Nonsense.

Laws are Laws , if human laws are broken there will be societal chaos, if the laws of physics are broken there will be universal chaos.

You don't seem to get it. You don't break the laws of physics.

frosbel:
I was making an analogy , surely it is not hard to understand this.

It is a bad analogy based on the fallacy of ambiguity.

frosbel:
And it does quite honestly beggar belief , that an 'intelligent' being will suggest the laws of physics which are quite complex and consistent , were the result of some freak accident , how much sillier can it get.

What do you mean by "accident"? Do you think "accident" as it is used is meaningful in the context of physical laws?

frosbel:
Laws whether Human or Physics have been provisioned by someone not by random chance, to suggest otherwise is just plain arrogance .

Have you been able to break a single physical law?

frosbel:
Cannot be more harmful that the acts committed by atheists both as a body ( communism, Marxism, etc ) and on an individual level.

Atheism is a threat to the moral fabric of society and in most cases a downright nuisance and foulness to our good senses.

Neither communism nor Marxism is atheism you know.
How is atheism a threat to the moral fabric of society, a nuisance or bad taste?

frosbel:
No basis for arguement, God does not exist , find another reason , oh hypocrisy

This is fascinating. A religious person who is faced with an inability to defend his God simply surrenders.
The reason I gave is enough to show that if your God exists, it is simply incompetent.

Next time you hear someone fume that God is the most contemptible being who never existed, keep in mind that you just might be watching the first act of a divine romantic comedy.

thehomer:

What clock are you talking about? I also hope you're not confusing time for clocks because there actually are man-made clocks that are more accurate in reporting the time than the rotation of the earth.
The position of the planets is decided by physical laws so with or without a God, if those laws were present, the planets would be where they are. In fact, a God would cause disturbances of the position of planets by e.g stopping the rotation of the earth.



Excellent. What if what the skeptic says "I don't believe in the God that you claim made that statement". Would that satisfy you?



Really? Intelligently planned and executed? Now what sort of planning went into creating the tape-worm and the hook worm? The malaria parasite and the Onchocerca that survives by living in the eye of their victim?
I'm sorry but I have to say that a God who does this is so incompetent and clumsy that he would be fired if he is to take credit for it.

I really do not have anything to say to you and your ilk because I have made myself perfectly clear in my post. I don't often post in this section because I am not interested in long drawn arguments and debates. There is a Supreme Deity who carefully planned and executed the whole of creation and your unbelief dosent change that immutable fact.

QED

Ishilove:
I really do not have anything to say to you and your ilk because I have made myself perfectly clear in my post. I don't often post in this section because I am not interested in long drawn arguments and debates. There is a Supreme Deity who carefully planned and executed the whole of creation and your unbelief dosent change that immutable fact.

QED

I have a lot to say to you and your ilk. Of course you're not interested in argumentation or discussion since your mind is already made up but as is said by the UNCF, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". I understand the fear you and your ilk have about critically examining your beliefs but hey you're on a public forum. Deal with it.
Merely making an assertion doesn't magically transform it into a fact neither will that make it more believable. To do that, you would actually need some arguments and discussion.

Good luck to you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

thehomer:

I have a lot to say to you and your ilk. Of course you're not interested in argumentation or discussion since your mind is already made up but as is said by the UNCF, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". I understand the fear you and your ilk have about critically examining your beliefs but hey you're on a public forum. Deal with it.
Merely making an assertion doesn't magically transform it into a fact neither will that make it more believable. To do that, you would actually need some arguments and discussion.

Good luck to you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

A good example of the arrogance and intrusiveness of an evangelical atheist.

frosbel:

A good example of the arrogance and intrusiveness of an evangelical atheist.

Aww is that your best response to this post on this thread? Come on man get to work defending your God.

thehomer:

Aww is that your best response to this post on this thread? Come on man get to work defending your God.

Mate, God will defend himself, you are the one seething with rage at a GOD who you say does not exist

I am rock solid in my belief in God and need no further proof, the proof is within me.

But leave others to carry on with their delusions while you bask in the glory of your newly found theory of a universe without origin, lol, a world of chance and magical appearances , where logic is the key to unlocking the door to 'madness'.

thehomer:

I have a lot to say to you and your ilk. Of course you're not interested in argumentation or discussion since your mind is already made up but as is said by the UNCF, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". I understand the fear you and your ilk have about critically examining your beliefs but hey you're on a public forum. Deal with it.
Merely making an assertion doesn't magically transform it into a fact neither will that make it more believable. To do that, you would actually need some arguments and discussion.

Good luck to you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

‘The FOOL hath said in his heart, There is no God!’

I think frosbel has said all that needs to be said. I repeat,I neither have the energy nor inclination for useless arguments

frosbel:

Mate, God will defend himself, you are the one seething with rage at a GOD who you say does not exist

One cannot seethe with rage against an entity they do not believe in. I know you think God will defend himself but until he shows up, he asked you to defend him. Doing otherwise is failing in his commission.

frosbel:
I am rock solid in my belief in God and need no further proof, the proof is within me.

Yes you're rock solid in your belief but are you able to convince others using reason? That is something skeptics would respond to you know.

frosbel:
But leave others to carry on with their delusions while you bask in the glory of your newly found theory of a universe without origin, lol, a world of chance and magical appearances , where logic is the key to unlocking the door to 'madness'.

Actually, the Bible talks about the sort of world you're referring to. Have you forgotten the angel that made Balaam's donkey talk? Just how much chance and magical appearances were in that story alone?

Ishilove:
‘The FOOL hath said in his heart, There is no God!’

I think frosbel has said all that needs to be said. I repeat,I neither have the energy nor inclination for useless arguments

Of course you'll think that and claim a lack of energy or inclination to actually defend your statements since thinking is hard work that you don't seem cut out for. Why don't you leave it to others to do for you?