The basis for the outsider test has been stated adequately by liberal Christian philosopher John Hick: “It is evident that in some ninety-nine percent of the cases the religion which an individual professes and to which he or she adheres depends upon the accidents of birth.” That is to say, if we were born in Saudi Arabia, we would be Sunni Muslims right now. If we were born in Iran, we’d be Shi’a Muslims. If we were born in India, we’d be a Hindus. If we were born in Japan, we’d be Shintoists. If we were born in Mongolia, we’d be Buddhists. If we were born in the first century BCE in Israel, we’d adhere to the Jewish faith at that time, and if we were born in Europe in 1000 CE, we’d be Roman Catholics. For the first nine hundred years we would’ve believed in the ransom theory of Jesus’ atonement. As Christians during the later Middle Ages, we wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with killing witches, torturing heretics, and conquering Jerusalem from the “infidels” in the Crusades. These things are as close to being undeniable facts as we can get in the sociological world.

Since one’s faith is almost completely an accident of birth, then, one should be highly skeptical about whether one’s faith is correct. The considerations above, and others, led Loftus to the OTF, which he describes as follows:

The outsider test is simply a challenge to test one’s own religious faith with the presumption of skepticism, as an outsider. It calls upon believers to “Test or examine your religious beliefs as if you were outsiders with the same presumption of skepticism you use to test or examine other religious beliefs.” Its presumption is that when examining any set of religious beliefs skepticism is warranted, since the odds are good that the particular set of religious beliefs you have adopted is wrong.

Various people have tried to find fault with this principle, a principle I find eminently sensible, but they’ve all failed. If you want to see a real exercise in sophistry along these lines, read Alvin Plantinga’s “Pluralism: a defense of religious exclusivism.” And be prepared to get angry.

Very good post.This is simple straightforward common sense that only someone born & programmed into a certain religion will fail to understand.

what what specific procedures do you propose? so far you'd just stated a rather abstract approach.
Have you followed this process yourself and how?

Try and divorce yourself from the situation, approach your faith as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in its falsity or truth.

ea7: Try and divorce yourself from the situation, approach your faith as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in its falsity or truth.

This may be a little bit impossible for some people or even abomination.
Anyone that does this will not be so religious soon after.

ea7: Try and divorce yourself from the situation, approach your faith as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in its falsity or truth.

it's easy to say, but how do you persuade somebody who'd just witnessed or experienced a miracle healing or miraculous event?? some people's faith come by mere believe & logic, some people's faith come by an actual experience.

okeyxyz:

it's easy to say, but how do you persuade somebody who'd just witnessed or experienced a miracle healing or miraculous event?? some people's faith come by mere believe & logic, some people's faith come by an actual experience.

Many miracoulus events happen to every body both believers and unbelievers alike. . .I know an atheist friend who had an accident with a group of christians in nigeria who prayed for for their god to guide and protect them before we embarked on a journey, they had a accident along the way and he was the only person that came out unscathed, they sustained very injuries, one was even paralyzed. . .Personal experience are subjective and of no value in the real sense. . .Miracles are make belief. . .Clear cut miracles like god healing amputees and restoring their amputated limbs never happen. . .

mazaje:

Many miracoulus events happen to every body both believers and unbelievers alike. . .I know an atheist friend who had an accident with a group of christians in nigeria who prayed for for their god to guide and protect them before we embarked on a journey, they had a accident along the way and he was the only person that came out unscathed, they sustained very injuries, one was even paralyzed. . .Personal experience are subjective and of no value in the real sense. . .Miracles are make belief. . .Clear cut miracles like god healing amputees and restoring their amputated limbs never happen. . .

I'm not even talking about an event like that, someone might attribute it to luck. I'm talking about an event being predicted and happening as stated, or a healing by command, both of which i'd actually experienced(ie: somebody predicted an event regarding me, on another occasion somebody healed me ).

okeyxyz:

I'm not even talking about an event like that, someone might attribute it to luck. I'm talking about an event being predicted and happening as stated, or a healing by command, both of which i'd actually experienced(ie: somebody predicted an event regarding me, on another occasion somebody healed me ).

Healed you of what? blindness?. . .Some one predicted what about you?. . .Most predictions I have come to know are vague and when things close or similar to what had been predicted happen believers all go gaga. . .

mazaje:

Healed you of what blindness?. . .Some one predicted what about you?. . .Most predictions I have come to know are vague and when things close or similar to what had been predicted happen believers all go gaga. . .

The prediction: in my first year of university(OAU), i had this beautiful leather bag i got as a gift, I had all my original documents in that bag because it was the time of registrations for new students. So, i went into the library, found a seat, put the bag on the table & went to browse through the book shelves, on returning, the bag had disappeared, somebody had stolen it with all my original docs. So i went away sad. two days later, i was at a friend's room, while narrating my misfortune his room-mate, a born again christian asked me to pray with him regarding the bag, he took me outside & we locked hands, he prayed & commanded that whoever stole my bag to return it within 7-days. not that i believed, but i was relying on his faith, but long story short, i kept going back to the library everyday hoping to see my miracle all to no show. But on the 7th day, i'm just about to walk into the library & behold my lost bag, in a corner shelf where people leave their bags before they enter the library, staring at me in the face, with all it's contents complete.

the healing: in the same first year of university, i'm down with feverish symptoms(can't say malaria or typhoid, but i was prone to both all through my secondary-boarding school), another born-again christian i happened to be squatting with for two weeks, invites me to dinner(beans with water-soaked garri ). I say to him, can't eat cos i have fever. He smiles, goes through his bag, gets out two tablets of paracetamol, he invites me to prayer & proceeds to pray over the tablets as my healing medicine. I swallow the tablets with garri-water & join him to eat, mehn.., after dinner, i just realize that all symptoms are gone. no fever, no shivers, no bitter saliva, every symptom gone.

ea7: Try and divorce yourself from the situation, approach your faith as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in its falsity or truth.

Interesting, have you tried approaching atheism in the same skeptical manner? Try and divorce yourself from the situation and approach atheism as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in it's falsity or truth. the results might just surprise you.

@Okeyxyz,
Both scenarios that you described could be easily explained logically. I am very prone to fever especially malaria. When I was much younger I took quinine to attack malaria when it comes but these days I take ordinary pcm and everything disapears. Throughtout 2011 I never took any anti malaria drug, all I took was paracetamol (pcm) and its not as if I prayed, no. I lost my belief in God in 2010 and effective jettisoned church and their bible in that same 2011 hence I wont claim miracle healing. Let me paint one personal scenario to u. Early this year whenever I wanted to clear phlegm from my nasal region I would spit blood, this went on for a little over a week. I got worried so I went to see a doc who told told me not to be worried and prescribed some drugs to me. I didnt buy the drugs on time so the blood spitting continued. With time I just thot this will go when its ready and if this is what would kill me then so be it. On a particular friday night I went to the club with some friends and while at the club arrd 2am I still spat blood. Arrd 5am I went back to my hse still spitting blood but less worried now. When I got home, I drank some water and hit the bed. When I woke later on saturday I tried to clear my nose again but alas my spittle was as white as snow and till now there is no single trace of blood in my spittle. Now if I had met a friend and prayed, one would have said its a miracle, right? But on the contrary I am an atheist/agnost. I do not believe in miracles.
As concerning your bag, It is very possible that your bag was NEVER stolen. Maybe when u went to browse the books someone found it and took it to the librarian whom you never checked with. All these examples do not cut a real jaw dropping miracles for me. People get well from mild fever everyday without even taking ordinary pcm, some drink water and go to sleep. People loose things and find it intact after several days. So its a no brainer. Real miracles are healing amputees and restoring withered limbs or blind eyes.

Mr_Anony:
Interesting, have you tried approaching atheism in the same skeptical manner? Try and divorce yourself from the situation and approach atheism as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in it's falsity or truth. the results might just surprise you.

And if Mr.Anony does this, he will find out that atheism is a rejection of all gods and all he has to do to show that it's wrong is find objective proof of ONE/ANY god.

Mr_Anony:

Interesting, have you tried approaching atheism in the same skeptical manner? Try and divorce yourself from the situation and approach atheism as a disinterested individual with no vested interest in it's falsity or truth. the results might just surprise you.

you do realise I was a christian before right. I already have. You are biased

EbuksAllison7: you do realise I was a christian before right. I already have. You are biased

What you don't realize is that I was an atheist before. I too already have. You are biased.

Martian:

And if Mr.Anony does this, he will find out that atheism is a rejection of all gods and all he has to do to show that it's wrong is find objective proof of ONE/ANY god.

Lol, in the same way if martian does this, he too will find out that the rejection of the supernatural is illogical and he simply doesn't have enough knowledge to be sure of such a conclusion

Ea7 asks-what made u change?

EbuksAllison7: Ea7 asks-what made u change?

God revealed Himself to me

Mr_Anony:
Lol, in the same way if martian does this, he too will find out that the rejection of the supernatural is illogical and he simply doesn't have enough knowledge to be sure of such a conclusion

Well, the Martian does this constantly because the Martian knows he "knows nothing" so he tries to learn as much as possible. The Martian still hasn't found any reason to partake in wishful thinking called the "supernatural".

Martian just accepts his fate as a "natural" being and doesn't need to believe in the "supernatural" for life to be bearable.

If you have proof that there is a supernatutal world,can you tell me what that "supernatural" world looks like?

Mr_Anony:
God revealed Himself to me

-____-
Subjective Personal Experiences Are Insufficient

1. Subjective Personal Experiences Do Not Justify An Objective Belief in God

This post is an ongoing, in-depth analysis of the first set of answers to potential objections to the Summary Case for Atheism, in which some Christians have contended that personal revelatory experiences provide sufficient direct evidence for belief in God.

A. Subjective Experiences Are Hearsay
As a threshold matter, when one person claims to have had a direct, revelatory experience of God, that claim is direct evidence only for that person. From my perspective, it is hearsay. I can’t evaluate your experience; all I can do is evaluate the fact that you’ve claimed to have such an experience.

Now, I have no doubt that religious believers who claim to have experienced God in some subjective or visionary way are, on the whole, generally sincere about those claims. But those claims are, of course, not restricted to Christians. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus – people of every religion claim such subjective experiences, and they can’t all be true.

B. Subjective Experiences Can’t All Be True
Because all sorts of believers have the same sorts of experiences — and they can’t all be true — we resort to methodological naturalism (see part 4) to evaluate these sorts of claims.

Critically, even Christians themselves use these techniques to evaluate claims of personal subjective experience when raised by non-Christians. One particularly compelling counterexample comes from Mormons, who believe that seekers should pray about the Book of Mormon to see if they receive a “burning in the bosom” – a subjective verification – that it is true. Here’s how an evangelical Christian apologist evaluates that argument:

What we must understand is that Latter-day Saints (LDS) believe these things for the same reason that people everywhere believe the things they do: they want to believe them. … This should come as no surprise to evangelicals who have read the Apostle Paul’s revelation of the roots of human idolatry in the first chapter of Romans. Fallen humans have affections and inclinations that they then prop up with beliefs, convincing themselves that their systems are true.

Another evangelical is a bit more direct:

Remember also that Paul never asked any potential converts to pray about his message. What he taught was found in the Scriptures and they could verify it and join the group of wise people, if they would repent and submissively place their faith in Jesus Christ to follow him. See Acts 17:11,12 cf. Acts 20:21; etc. … Yes, the devil can duplicate peace. That is what he does in transcendental meditation (TM) and also in Catholicism after one receives the Eucharist. The devil uses these and other experiences to deceive.

Thus, Christians themselves concede that personal, subjective experiences – particularly of the kind promoted by Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and the like – are insufficient to warrant a belief in God! When someone claims to have been visited by God, it is more reasonable to believe that that person is sincerely mistaken, engaged in wish-fulfillment, and so on.

In the most extreme cases, we think people who hear divine voices are suffering from paranoid delusions. Consider the sad case of Andrea Yates, who (apparently) sincerely believed that she heard the voice of God commanding her to drown her five children. On face, her case isn’t any different from what Abraham claimed to have heard directly from God in Genesis 22:1-10. Why, then, does virtually every Christian have no difficulty concluding that Ms. Yates was insane?

I submit that whatever our “worldview” — in day to day life, we are called upon to evaluate claims like this from a variety of religious, spiritual, and other sources. Uniformly, we reject these sorts of experiences, standing alone, as being sufficient justification for the truths of the beliefs asserted in those experiences.

For all of these reasons, I conclude that this first set of arguments is insufficient to warrant belief in God.
yeah i kno. its copied, sue me

Martian:

Well, the Martian does this constantly because the Martian knows he "knows nothing" so he tries to learn as much as possible. The Martian still hasn't found any reason to partake in wishful thinking called the "supernatural".

Martian just accepts his fate as a "natural" being and doesn't need to believe in the "supernatural" for life to be bearable.

If you have proof that there is a supernatutal world,can you tell me what that "supernatural" world looks like?

In that case, I will leave Martian to continue in his "know-nothingness" however I must caution that for Martian to be truly unbiased, he must also not trust any of his senses unless he knows for sure that they are working perfectly. He must also not rely on any of his life experiences or his memory to date until he can objectively verify them as real experiences. He must not take anything for granted no matter how small it is. Then and only then will he be truly unbiased enough to learn anything new without prejudice.

Good luck in your learning adventure.

Mr_Anony:
In that case, I will leave Martian to continue in his "know-nothingness" however I must caution that for Martian to be truly unbiased, he must also not trust any of his senses unless he knows for sure that they are working perfectly.

My senses are in good working order and they are the only tools I have to learn anything so dvising me not to trust them is a bit unwise. If I can't trust my senses, whose senses should I trust? Yours?
My senses can also be enhanced through the ue of science and technology so I think Ill stick to my senses.

Mr_Anony:
He must also not rely on any of his life experiences or his memory to date until he can objectively verify them as real experiences

What are you talking about?

Mr_Anony:
He must not take anything for granted no matter how small it is. Then and only then will he be truly unbiased enough to learn anything new without prejudice.
Good luck in your learning adventure.

You should take this advice and "start" learning.

Martian:

My senses are in good working order and they are the only tools I have to learn anything so dvising me not to trust them is a bit unwise. If I can't trust my senses, whose senses should I trust? Yours?
My senses can also be enhanced through the ue of science and technology so I think Ill stick to my senses.
What are you talking about? You should take this advice and "start" learning.

Lol, you only claim that your senses are working properly because you take it for granted that they are.
How do you objectively know for sure that they are indeed working properly? A mad man can make the exact same claim and of course his senses are the only tools he has same goes for a half-deaf man or half-blind man.
How do you even know what properly working senses are like?
How can you know for sure that technology is actually enhancing your senses and not diminishing them?
How do you know for sure that all your memories are indeed genuine and not implanted?

What I have tried to show you is pure skepticism. There is nobody who doesn't have biases. In fact without prior biases and taking some things for granted, you cannot possibly learn anything new.
To now turn around and demand that for anything to be true, it must submit to your previous biases is simply unreasonable.

If you are going to claim that you know nothing then follow that philosophy to the fullest, don't suddenly contradict yourself by telling me that you know that your senses work properly.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, you only claim that your senses are working properly because you take it for granted that they are.
How do you objectively know for sure that they are indeed working properly? A mad man can make the exact same claim and of course his senses are the only tools he has same goes for a half-deaf man or half-blind man.
How do you even know what properly working senses are like?

My senses serve me well so they are working properly. You can say they are not working properly but that's just your opinion. I could easily say yours are not working properly since you claim a non existent entity revelaed himself to you, but I'm sure you'll disagree. But I see no difference between your senses and those of a mad man who sees things that are not real..

Mr_Anony:
How do you even know what properly working senses are like?
How can you know for sure that technology is actually enhancing your senses and not diminishing them?
How do you know for sure that all your memories are indeed genuine and not implanted?

I know technology enhances our senses because even though we can't utilize our sight to see each other and our hearing to hear each other, we can still have a conversation through a computer.
I know my memories are genuine beacause I lived them and I have mental and physical reminders. There is also no reason for me to believe that they were "implanted". By who; and for what purpose would someone deem me important enough to "implant" my memories. How do you even go about doing that? Riddle me that.

Mr_Anony:
What I have tried to show you is pure skepticism. There is nobody who doesn't have biases. In fact without prior biases and taking some things for granted, you cannot possibly learn anything new.
To now turn around and demand that for anything to be true, it must submit to your previous biases is simply unreasonable.

What you showed is pure stupidity. Implants! Seriously? Real skepticism is asking why would anyone "implant" my memories, how the feat was achieved, to what end and is there a precedent or am I the first? It's not making stuff up on a whim and asking someone else why they think it's not true. Things do not have to submit to my biases, all they have to do is prove them wrong. My biases are based on reality and nothing more because this reality that we inhabit is the only one we can be sure of and we all experience it. If your views are biased against the natural universe that we know of in favor of some ill defined "supernatural" reality, then I will reject it and most likely mock it.

Mr_Anony:
If you are going to claim that you know nothing then follow that philosophy to the fullest, don't suddenly contradict yourself by telling me that you know that your senses work properly.

My senses work properly because they serve me well.That's my view which you're free to reject. When I say "I know nothing", I don't mean it literally but that I'm open to learn things both old and new; but if that thing attempts to create an alternate reality without evidence but endless rhetoric, then I will reject it.

Mr_Anony:
He must not take anything for granted no matter how small it is. Then and only then will he be truly unbiased enough to learn anything new without prejudice.

Martian:
If you have proof that there is a supernatutal world,can you tell me what that "supernatural" world looks like?

I've answered your questions, so you should do likewise.

mr anony is so smart...not

EbuksAllison7: mr anony is so smart...not

LOL!. . . .I actually thinks he is someone I know already. . . .

Some one ought to teach that guy that just because you put words together in a grammatically correct manner you can not forego putting any meaning into them

EbuksAllison7: Some one ought to teach that guy that just because you put words together in a grammatically correct manner you can not forego putting any meaning into them

Faith and spirituality do not require meaning, because they "create meaning" for the belivers. Just write something grammaticaly sophisticated and the sheeple will eat it up.

M_Nwankwo is one of the best writers here, but the only thing of his that has ever made sense to me is one paragraph that he wrote acknowledging that his views are totally subjective. Other than that, Ive never been able to finish reading his posts. He writees about "spiritual particle"
"Spiritual particles oscillating in different gradations and dimensions" sounds like "Viva Vadar is using unobtanium to excite soul particles and take over the dimension of light". bM_Nwankwo believes what he writes while I consider "soul particles" to be BS.
..........that grail message is one complex web of beliefs. Total bullshit of course, but still, it's some complex bullsh#t.

If every theist was like him, then this place wonuldn't be fun because the grail message has to be the most peaceful and tolerant variation of christianity.

Martian:
My senses serve me well so they are working properly. You can say they are not working properly but that's just your opinion. I could easily say yours are not working properly since you claim a non existent entity revelaed himself to you, but I'm sure you'll disagree. But I see no difference between your senses and those of a mad man who sees things that are not real..I've answered your questions, so you should do likewise.

In summary, all you have really said sounds like "I know because I know" which still isn't an objective answer

So I will answer you likewise, I know God because I know Him and he has revealed Himself to me through His Word. You may disagree but that also is your opinion I also see no difference between your senses and that of a mad man because to me you claim that an obvious God does not exist.

.....You see my friend, we can both continue to give subjective answers until the cows come home. Nothing will change, what amuses me though is how you readily switch from a completely ignorant fellow to an all-knowing being and back again as it suits you.

I am not really interested in proving God's existence on this thread. All I really wanted to show you was that you are not as objective and skeptical as you would have us believe.
..........and so far, I think I have achieved that.

EbuksAllison7: Some one ought to teach that guy that just because you put words together in a grammatically correct manner you can not forego putting any meaning into them

Lol, Ok sorry, Mr Ebuka (I presume that's your name) abeg no vex, how can I know objectively that you know what you are talking about? How can I even know objectively that you know anything you claim to know?

If you are going to be objective, be objective to the fullest, Don't pick and choose extents for your objectivity.

It is in God I live and move and have my being, God is much more than an opinion to me, He so enmeshed in my reality that to step out of it and view as an "objective" observer is virtually impossible. It is like asking me to step out of reality and imagine I didn't exist and then from my non-existence, judge if God exists. It makes no sense to me at all.