₦airaland Forum

lexiconkabir:
Someone that is knowledgeable about Islam and is not weak in faith can use the Bible against them, ibn taymiyyah did!

Proof yourself right..... Even if he did ... In taymiyyah is our Alfa and we respect him but we will not follow him on this issue because has gone wrong against a Hadith claiming that Rasulullah got angry with Umar because he showed him a part of TORAH...




See, download Jabata lectures, all your questions are already answered

Empiree:
whats this has to do with what i posted above?. Do you understand at all?

What you posted is that Islam has to evolve with time

lexiconkabir:
1.) He is a liar e.g he lied that he studied hadeeth in cairo al-azhar(the same azhar that is not upon kitaab wa sunnah), therefore he claims to be a muhaddeeth whereas in reality he studied falsafa(philosophy, a course that is kufr in and of itself)

2.) He speaks without knowledge e.g he was a question if it is sunnah use the fingers to scrub out teeth while rinsing the mouth in wudhu, to my greatest shock he said if it is permissible! Subhanallaah let me ask you, his he correct?

3.) He is a takfiri! e.g he declared imam an-nawawi a kaafir for an alleged bidah, it was after sometime he found out that he was wrong, pls why didn't he do research before declaring him a kaafir?

Laughing hysterically... You are ignorant about him. And you do not listen to his lectures and you listen to the lies said against him.




1. He said he studied in al azhary in Cairo before he knew about Islam and Sunnah. . What is been thought in al azhary is pure Sufi ... That's why he knows much about them.

2. Jabata never speaks without knowledge. And anything he gives as lectures without him telling us the proof in Qur'an and Hadiths, we should never accept it. What was the proof he gave to backup his point... If he didn't give any proof, do not listen to that fatwa. And you are to use hands to rinse your mouth after you might have pour out the water in your mouth..

3. Yes, he called imam nawawi a kufar based on what the imam wrote... But the imam has repented and changed the errors in what he wrote... And Jabata has later said he has seen proofs that the imam is not a kaafir.

Empiree:
Okay. Well, what you stated is basic approach. This is 21st century and knowledge evolves. It is very necessary to use their Books against them. What sense does it make when you hold Qur'an and hadith to preach to folks who have absolutely no idea nor believe in it?. Can you reason?. This is necessity base on TIME

Islam never changes no matter the time and age nor century. Islam during the time of Rasulullah is the same thing till the end of the world.



NOTE: TIME DO NOT CHANGE ISLAM NOR QURAN NOR HADITHS.....ISLAM, QURAN AND HADITH REMAIN SAME FOR EVER..



Whoever removes nor add nor innovate anything into our religion IS NOT ONE OF US

lexiconkabir:
For your own good stop listening to jabata....


Hadaakallaah.

Give me 3 reasons I should stop listening to him

Empiree:
Sounds like you trying to sell me ideology. Boy bye. I got no time for this.

All I stated to you is in Qur'an and Hadiths... Not my ideology

lexiconkabir:
You have a problem brother, i called him a takfiri you claimed i called him a kaafir, and i clarified then you start defining what takfiri and kaafir is?

And pls its kaafir not kufar, kuffar is the plural of kaafir.

Laughing.... I have already answered you in this thread concerning this topic.... For more information... download those audios

Empiree:
^^^^

ACARDIP are wrong for using Bible in their Dawah?

Your answer has been stated in those Quranic verses and Hadiths with explanations from scholars

Empiree:
How relevant is this to your op?

Because all your positions about Islam judgment is based on awah... Not Qur'an or Hadiths...



The lecturer I know that always talk with prove from Qur'an Hadiths is Jabata.....


Listen to his lectures and you will understand what am saying

lexiconkabir:
I am not blocking the call to sunnah, i am blocking the da'awah of Ahl takfiriyyoon.

I know you are talking out of ignorance...... Download the lectures about takfiri from the site to prove yourself right or to prove me wrong

lexiconkabir:
I called him a TAKFIRI not a KAAFIR, I know nothing about him and I know about is stance?

See your life
. U are absolutely ignorant about takfiri and kaafir...



Takfiri means someone who calls a Muslim a kufar... And thereby the kufar goes back to him not the Muslim.


Better start listening to Jabata lectures and understand lots about Sunnah and Islam

lexiconkabir:
Readers for your own good, do not download anything from this site EXCEPT YOU'VE PERFECTLY UNDERSTOOD THE SUNNAH ON THE MANHAJ OF THE RIGHTEOUS SALAFS, then you can download to see his(and students) takfiri kind of preaching.

You are blocking the call to Sunnah... Tell me the title of lectures of Jabata that you have listened to and tell me what he said wrong..


As long as you are listening to them say he said.. you will hate him with passion..

Before your hatred for him goes further, please and please download and listen to his lectures..

lexiconkabir:
I know him, i live in Ilorin, so i perfectly know him, i have told you ane proven that he is takfiri, khalas!

You called a Muslim a kufar?? Do you even know what you have just said ? Do you even know the implication? Am very sure that you know nothing about him even though you live in Ilorin...... Visit the site I posted. Download takfir 1-3....

Am sure you wil thank me later...

Empiree:
.

You are a Sufi.. you need to listen to Jabata lectures and know what mess you really in

For you to know who Muhammad Ali Jabata is...... Visit voiceofthesalaf dot com and download his lectures

The summary of all these pileup writings is that, every other books said to be books of the passed Prophets before Rasulullah should never be used as dawah nor believed it to be original scripture.. We as Muslims should only believe that those books were given to prophets but we should never act on its contents because we should only act accordingly to QUR'AN and Hadiths. Qur'an has abrogated it all...STOP DOING DAWAH WITH BIBLE OR TORAH.... Only Qur'an and Hadiths is allowed ...




ALLAH KNOWS BEST...


Salaam alaikum

Muhammad Ibn al-cAlâ' told us that Ibn Numayr reported from Mujâlid from Ibn cAamir from Jâbir that cUmar Ibn al-Khattâb brought a copy of the Torah to the Prophet(P) and said: "O Apostle of God, this is a copy of the Torah." But [the Prophet] kept silent. Then cUmar started reading and the face of the Prophet kept changing. So, Abu Bakr interrupted him violently: "Don't you see the face of the Prophet(P)?" cUmar looked at the Prophet's face and said "May God preserve me from His anger and from the anger of his Apostle(P), we accepted God as Lord and Islâm as religion and Muhammad as prophet." Then the Prophet(P) said: "By the One Who owns Muhammad's soul, if Moses(P) appeared to you and you followed him and left me, you would go astray from the right path and if he were alive and reached [the time of] my prophethood he would have followed me. "

Allah has instructed us to ask them to bring the Torah and recite it, if they are being truthful in quoting something that is contrary to that. For they used to “distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:78], and “write the Book with their own hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah’” [al-Baqarah 2:79]. So they used to lie in what they said and what they wrote; hence a translation can only be accepted from one who is trustworthy.

If one of them quotes a report from the previous Messengers as evidence for something that is contrary to the Qur’an, such as those who say that Moosa said, “Adhere to observance of the Sabbath so long as heaven and earth endure,” we can say to them: “In which book is this? Bring it (and show us).” For we know that this is not in their Books; rather it is nothing but a fabrication.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa (4/110-112)

And Allah knows best.

The Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas was asked: what is the ruling on reading the Gospel?

They replied:

The earlier divinely revealed Books have been subjected to a great deal of distortion, additions and subtractions, as Allah has told us. Hence it is not permissible for the Muslim to read them and study them, unless he is one of those who are well versed in knowledge and wants to highlight the distortions and contradictions in those books.

End quote from Fataawa al-Lajnah ad-Daa’imah – vol. 1 (3/311)

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It is permissible for the well versed scholar to read them in order to refute the opponents of Islam among the Jews and Christians, as the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) called for the Torah when the Jews denied the ruling of stoning, so that he could look at it, and after that they admitted it.

The point is that the scholars who have knowledge of Islam may need to look at the Torah, Gospel or Psalms for an Islamic purpose, such as refuting the enemies of Allah, or highlighting the virtue of the Qur’an and what it contains of truth and guidance. As for the common folk and others like them, they should not do any such thing. Rather if they have anything of the Torah, Gospel or Psalms, they must bury it in a clean place or burn it, so that no one will be led astray by it.

End quote from Fataawa Noor ‘ala ad-Darb (1/10)

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

As for the seeker of knowledge who has sufficient knowledge that enables him to distinguish truth from falsehood, there is nothing wrong with him learning about them – namely the Gospels – in order to refute what they contain of falsehood and establish proof against their followers.

End quote from Majmoo‘ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (1/33)

To sum up, for the daa‘iyahs who call people to Allah, may He be exalted, to use the texts of the Torah and Gospel in order to refute the Jews and Christians and highlight their misguidance, this is something that is prescribed and is not an innovation. Rather it is a matter for which there is a basis in the Qur’an and Sunnah.

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

If someone among them is disputing and wants to quote something to undermine the Qur’an on a textual or rational basis, such as quoting something from their books about the Prophets that is contrary to what was brought by Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), or is contrary to what Allah said in their Books, such as when they told the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that Allah had commanded them to blacken the face of the adulterer, and not stone him, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and the believers were able to ask for the Torah and for a trustworthy translator who could read it and translate it into Arabic, such as ‘Abdullah ibn Salaam and others like him. When he said to their rabbi: “Lift up your hand and expose the verse of stoning,” the verse became visible, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stoned the two Jewish adulterers, after having established proof against them from their own book that was in accordance with what Allah had revealed to him about stoning.

Likewise, it is possible to read from a translation of it in order to learn what they have, via a trustworthy Muslim translator or those among us who know their language, as in the case of Zayd ibn Thaabit and others like him. … Hence Allah, may He be exalted, said (interpretation of the meaning): “All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for himself before the Tawraat (Torah) was revealed. Say (O Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)): "Bring here the Tawraat (Torah) and recite it, if you are truthful” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:93].

2-

The second category of people is those who are well versed in knowledge, who use these books to debate with the Jews and Christians, and to establish proof against them.

In this case the fear of confusion is less, because the one who is well versed in knowledge has the ability to recognise the falsehood that has been introduced into these books and to be cautious of it, and to refute it and warn others against it. Moreover, by refuting the people of the Book and their falsehood, he is serving an important shar‘i interest that must be served.

Hence many scholars read these books for the purpose of debating with the Jews and Christians. Among the most famous of those who refuted the Jews and Christians by quoting their own books to them were: Ibn Taymiyah, in his book al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (The Correct Response to those who altered the Religion of the Messiah); Ibn al-Qayyim in his book Hidaayat al-Hayaara fi Ajwibat al-Yahood wa’n-Nasaara (Guiding to the Confused in Refuting the Jews and Christians); Ibn Hazm in his book al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Ahwa’ wa’n-Nahl (Discussion of the Views of Different Religions, Groups and Sects); al-Qurtubi in his book al-I‘laam bima fi Deen an-Nasaara min al-Fasaad wa’l-Awhaam (Highlighting what the Religion of the Christians contains of Corruption and Myths); and many others.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

… unlike the one who is well versed in knowledge. For him it is permissible to read in the Torah and Gospel, especially when he needs to refute an opponent. This is indicated by the fact that the imams (leading scholars), both in the past and more recently, quoted from the Torah to prove to the Jews that they should believe in Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) on the basis of what they found in their book. If they did not believe that it was permissible to read it, they would not have done that and persisted in doing so, generation after generation.

End quote from Fath al-Baari (13/525-526)

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

If it so happens that there are some of the people of the Book who convert to Islam, and they have knowledge of what they have in their language and can translate it to us in Arabic, that may be useful when debating with the Jews and Christians or talking to them, as ‘Abdullah ibn Salaam, Salmaan al-Faarisi, Ka‘b al-Ahbaar and others did; they transmitted what they had of knowledge. In that case we may quote what they have that is in harmony with what the Messenger brought, and that will be proof against them in some ways and against others in other ways, as we have explained elsewhere.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa (4/109-110)

In Mataalib Ooli an-Nuha (1/607-608), which is a Hanbali book, it says:

The idea of it being permissible to read in the books of the innovators may be applicable for one who is well versed in the Qur’an and Sunnah, if he is also very steadfast, strong in faith, smart and alert, very intelligent, and able to derive evidence in order to refute them, discover their secrets and expose them, so that ignorant people will not be taken in by their deceiving arguments and thus become confused. This was done by leading scholars among the best of the Muslims, and they presented strong arguments against the innovators that the latter could not find an answer to. Similarly, they looked in the Torah and found in it mention of our Prophet in many locations; the permissibility of looking in their Book is also applicable in that case. End quote.

Every Muslim is obliged to believe in them and that they (originally) came from Allah: the Torah, the Gospel and the Psalms (Zaboor). So he believes that Allah sent down the Books to the Prophets, and He sent down to them Scriptures containing commands and prohibitions, exhortation and reminders, stories of some events in the past, descriptions of Paradise and Hell, and so on. But he should not read them, because distortions, alterations and changes have been introduced into them. So he should not keep copies of the Torah, Gospel or Psalms, or read them, because doing that is risky, as it may lead to him disbelieving something that is true or believing something that is false. That is because these books have been distorted and changed, and those Jews, Christians and others have introduced alterations and distortions into them, changing the order of things in some cases. Allah has given us a great Book which means that we have no need of them, namely the Holy Qur’an.

End quote from Fataawa Noor ‘ala ad-Darb (1/9)

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) was asked:

is it permissible for a Muslim to keep a copy of the Gospel in order to find out what Allah said to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace be upon him)?

He replied:

It is not permissible to keep anything of the Scriptures that came before the Qur’an, be it the Gospel, Torah or anything else, for two reasons:

1. because everything in them that is beneficial Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, has explained it in the Holy Qur’an;

2. there is no need for any of these books because we have the Qur’an. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:3] and “And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) the Book (this Quran) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allah has revealed” [al-Maa’idah 5:48]. Whatever of good there is in the previous scriptures is also to be found in the Qur’an.

With regard to the questioner saying that he wants to find out what Allah said to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa, we can find what is most beneficial of that in what Allah has told us in the Qur’an, so there is no need to look elsewhere. Moreover, the Gospel as it exists at present has been distorted. The evidence for that is that there are four Gospels which differ from one another; there is not one single Gospel, therefore it cannot be relied upon.

End quote from Majmoo‘ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (1/32-33)

An-Nasaa’i and others narrated from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that he saw a page of the Torah in the hand of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him). He said: “If Moosa were alive, and you were to follow him and leave me, you would go astray.” According to another report: “… he would have no option but to follow me.” According to another version: The face of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) changed when ‘Umar showed that to him, and one of the Ansaar said to him: O son of al-Khattaab, do you not see the face of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)? ‘Umar said: I am content with Allah as my Lord, Islam is my religion, and Muhammad as my Prophet.

Hence the Sahaabah forbade the study of any book other than the Qur’an.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa (17/41-42)

Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) used to say:

How can you ask the people of the Book about anything, when your Book that was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is more recent, and you read it pure and not tampered with? And He has told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah and changed it, and they wrote the Book with their own hands, and said that it is from Allah, to purchase with it a little price. Does not the knowledge that has come to you forbid you to ask them about anything? No, by Allah, we have not seen any man among them ask you about that which was revealed to you.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7363).

Moreover, focusing on the Torah and Gospel is a distraction from that which will benefit the Muslim with regard to his Hereafter.

Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

If the one who reads it – namely the Qur’an – will have a tenfold reward or more for each letter, according to what we mentioned in the introduction to this book, then turning away from it and towards other Books is misguidance and loss, and it is a bad deal and waste of time.

End quote from al-Jaami‘ li Ahkaam al-Qur’an (16/37

Secondly:

Based on the above, the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) are of the view that those who study these books – the books of the Jews and Christians – may be divided into two groups:

-1-

The first group is ordinary people, those who have no knowledge and those who are weak in faith. They are not allowed to study these books so that they will not be confused by that which has been introduced into them of falsehood, and so that they will not be distracted by something that is of no benefit.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

With regard to this matter, it is important to note that in the case of those who are not well-versed in knowledge and are lacking in faith, it is not permissible for them to read any of those books.

End quote from Fath al-Baari (13/525)

With regard to this group – ordinary people and those who come under the same heading, or those who seek to benefit in spiritual terms from those books – these are the ones who the scholars stated should not be allowed to read the Torah and Gospel.

It says in Mataalib Ooli an-Nuha (1/607):

It is not permissible to study the books of the people of the Book, based on textual evidence, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) got angry when he saw ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) carrying a page of the Torah. … And they should not read books that contain both truth and falsehood, or narrate what they learn from them, because that may be detrimental to belief. End quote.

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The books of the Torah and Gospel are among the things that it is prohibited to seek benefit therein, because they changed and altered them.

End quote from Rawdat at-Taalibeen (10/259)

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

What ruling on studying the books of the People of the Book for the purpose of da‘wah (calling them to Islam), and the ruling on studying comparative religion?
Published Date: 2014-10-25
Praise be to Allah.

Firstly:

The Torah and Gospel were originally from Allah, may He be exalted, and we are obliged to believe in them because Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muslims), ‘We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa‘eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya‘qoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbaat (the twelve sons of Ya‘qoob (Jacob)), and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:136]

“O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away”

[an-Nisa’ 4:136].

But the Torah and Gospel were subjected to distortion and changes. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby”

[al-Baqarah 2:79].

Because of this distortion and the mixing of truth with falsehood in these two Scriptures, it is prohibited to study them.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: “Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”

Narrated by Ahmad (14736); classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 6/34

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said, after mentioning the isnaads of this hadith:

These are all the isnads of this hadith; even though it does not reach such a standard that it may be relied upon as evidence, when they are all taken into consideration, this implies that there is a basis for this report.

End quote from Fath al-Baari (13/525)

Moreover, the truth that we have in the Holy Qur’an means that there is no need for whatever truth may be in the Torah and Gospel.

Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:51].

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

Because the Qur’an is the best of speech, they were prohibited to follow anything else. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:51].

WE MUST ALL STOP PREACHING OR DOING DAWAH OR CALLING TO ISLAM OR GIVING FACTS ABOUT CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES WITH ANY OTHER BOOK APART FROM QUR'AN AND HADITH..

Let's not forget that ibadah done without those two validators is null and void. And it simply means one is making rules into Islam and thereby competing with ALLAH as Almighty.. We must not add to Islam nor remove from Islam ...


But whatever that is done in Islam on ignorance, misunderstanding, forgetfulness is forgiven .... But whatever that is done in Islam without ignorance, without misunderstanding and forgetfulness thereby one following one's awah(decision or wants or desire) leads to kufru...

Salam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabrakatuhu ...

I want to call our attention to a very trivial issue that people do overlook... It's a very serious matter and as a matter of fact it's a sinful act and may lead to kufru.



This issue is the issue of method of doing dawah in Islam. Let us remember that there's just 2 things that validates our ibadah... 1. It must be done with iklas and mutabah ... Iklas as in it must be done for the sake of Allah and mutabah means it must be done exactly the way Rasulullah did it.

lexiconkabir:
All the people i mentioned hold on to these proofs to show that not all bid'ah leads to kufr, and you say people of bid'ah are the only ones that make use of that proof therefore we are kafirs according to your shaykh.

Like i said. We will only follow our imams on whatever they say that they gave us proofs from sunnah...




Now rasul said, EVERY BIDIA LEADS TO HELL.

Please explain how "EVERY" can be divided into 2 or more.



Do you belief that whoever rejects a single verse from Quran is a kufar?

Allah said in Quran that HE has completed our religion and HE named it Islam..


If you believe that not all bidia is kufr... Explain by using Quran and hadith..



Anything that has to do with ibadah means Islam. And Allah said Islam is complete. Rejecting Quran verse leads to kufru..

ALL BIDIA IS KUFR. NO MATTER HOW SMALL OR BIG

lexiconkabir:
All the people i mentioned hold on to these proofs to show that not all bid'ah leads to kufr, and you say people of bid'ah are the only ones that make use of that proof therefore we are kafirs according to your shaykh.

What I meant by bidiah people in that sentence are all those torika people who truth is understand by them but still go against the Truth

lexiconkabir:
@Deathstroke what is ijtihad?

Means excuse or mistake ... For example, the issue of using prayer beads, some eminent scholars supports it and some didn't. And there are just 3 ways we do select proofs for every single thing in Islam. QURAN. HADITH, WHATEVER ALL THE SAHABAHS AGREED UPON.


All our imams do say something, WE MUST NEVER FOLLOW THEM IN ANYTHING THEY SAY OR GIVE AS FATWA IF THEY DIDN'T GIVE US PROOFS ..


scholars can't know it all, when some gave fatwa of using tasbeeh while prophet, sahabahs never used it.. Although some hadith's came on tasheeh but ahlu hadith's said they are weak. The scholars might not know it's weak or they made a mistake.. In such fatwa given by anybody that goes against Quran. Hadith's and ijamh sahabah..we will not follow their fatwa on that issue... Because they can't knowingly go against sunnah...



Bidia means worshiping Allah with what Allah didn't command us to worship him with...


Whoever does bidiah due to mistake or ignorance or he was forced or due to shubha(misunderstanding) is not a kufar.......Kufar comes in when it is clear to someone that what he's worshipping Allah with is not sanctioned by Allah and still insists that that is what he will be doing.. In short, following ones desire ...good example is moulud nabiy..

lexiconkabir:
And you said its people of bid'ah that make use of that proof, so according to you;

1) i am a kafir

2) Albani is a kafir

3) ibn uthaymeen is a kafir

4) ibn baaz is a kafir

5) all the ulama are kafirs except you, your people and your shaykh?

Weldone

Laughing... What exactly do you mean. Why would I call any of those people you listed and you... When I didn't see any reason to call you or them a kafir... All the conditions laid down by Quran and sunnah is not in any of those people you listed