₦airaland Forum

Ibime:
And what do you see there?

DeBruyne XA Double that of Hazard, same as the big chances created.

Anywhere you see big chances, you should already know how XA is gonna go

what i see is hazard having a mediocre assist number that is not up to what he is supposed to have using his xA number (in a season that was claimed to be one of his most inconsistent and poor season) and i see kdb having a good number of assist that is more what he is supposed to have, using his xA number (in a season claimed to be one of his career best).

now, if kdb had 12... xA in one of his best seasons and hazard had 11..xA in one of his best seasons, can you tell us how 11.. is very inferior to 12..? tell us how kdb is heads and shoulders above hazard in vision and creativity?

Oasis007:


Regular Discourse on this Thread before and after a Match.



Chelsea win...... Hazard!

Chelsea draw..... Hazard!

Chelsea lose...... Hazard!

oga, leave us. we are having intelligent argument here

OGA IBIME, this is what i am telling you about.

https://theshortfuse.sbnation.com/2017/11/21/16687422/arsenal-premier-league-advanced-statistics-xg-expected-goals-league-wide


watch how sterling got 11 assists despite having same number of xA with hazard

Ibime:
His last stat showed his XA is much higher than his assist which means teammates are missing chances he created.


You are inferring the wrong thing. You said his XA in previous season must be lower than his assist. This is false conclusion and designed to deceive.


It is either you produce such stat or desist from those deceptions.

DeBruyne big chance creation is double Hazard on average, and his XA will also be double or thereabouts.

oga, it was not a guess work, na fact. You Can check for yourself. One of the links i posted has it.
His last stat can not be a base for conclusion because he played a low number of matches.

Ibime:
It took 7 years of his prime to hit 110 goals.

He would need another 102 to break Lampard record which is another 7 years roughly.

Do you think he would score at the same rate till the age of 36?

it was not 7 years of his prime. He came to Chelsea at age 21. Lampard was older than him before coming to Chelsea. Lamps spent 13 years at Chelsea. If hazard had stayed, he would have needed 6 more years to reach that 13 and he would be 34 years old by then.

Nobody can say for sure what would happen in 6 years time, but if he is to break the record, he would need to score 17 goals every season for 6 years to break the record. It looks possible for me.


But, we don't know if he can score until old age. We will have to see how he scores when he gets to that age to see if he would have been able to do it if he had stayed.

Ibime:
Mr Man, stop turning facts on their head.

Either go and bring DeBruyne XA stats for that season or quit creating false impression.

Hazard 15 assists for last season was an outlier and his XA stats proved his teammates did him favour to convert low quality chances.


DeBruyne every season has consistently high assists. His big chances stats confirm it. And his XA stats will confirm it too if you care to appraise us of those stats


Don't think we didn't go to school that you will see A and call it B. Some of us know how to draw reasonable conclusions by correlation.

i don't know if where else to get the xA stats. But, from one of the links that i posted you can see that KDB's teammates have also been helping to give him awoof assists, which is the same for every player that ever tops the chart. Players like sane benefit from it a lot.
Meanwhile, some players have been done bad by their teammates, which is usually the case for players like david silva and Hazard.




BTW, you didn't answer the questions. Especially the last one

For those who don't know what started my argument with oga ibime.

Oga ibime said that hazard is not anywhere close to KDB in vision and assists.

My own argument is on vision; what it means and how it can be measured for a player.
From getting the stats, we can now determine if Ibime's claim is correct or not.

Oga ibime, do you think hazard would have broken Lampard's record if he had stayed up to the number of years Lampard stayed at Chelsea?

https://www.squawka.com/en/features/xg-xa-stats-premier-league

https://theshortfuse.sbnation.com/2017/11/21/16687422/arsenal-premier-league-advanced-statistics-xg-expected-goals-league-wide



https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11119595/expected-assists-what-does-it-mean-and-who-tops-the-list


Only four players, all of whom are out-and-out strikers, reached 50 Premier League goals for Chelsea in fewer appearances than Eden Hazard (155 games). Hazard reached the milestone in 29 fewer games than fellow club icon Frank Lampard.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/what-are-expected-goals-xg-and-expected-assists-xa-why-are-they-a-good-measure-of-player-performances


https://sportstar.thehindu.com/football/eden-hazard-chelsea-transfer-news-real-madrid-la-liga-premier-league-england-football-opta-stats-europa-league/article27346229.ece

Ibime:
Big chances have strong correlation with xassist

An assist is not usually expected unless the chance is of good quality

A poor chance could for example be assigned 5% of scoring, whilst a big chance could be assigned 100%. Therefore under XA you may need to create 20 poor chances to get the same XA as someone who created one big chance eg a tapin. Therefore when we see your big chance stats, we more or less know XA will follow the same pattern. In other words, KDB who creates double the number of big chances will roughly have double the XA of Hazard over the same number of games.


You are digging bigger hole for yourself here because Hazard expected assist is less than his actual assist. That is because he creates LOW QUALITY chances.

Hazard last season had 11.57 expected assists but 15 actual assists

Ryan Fraser for example had 16.18 expected assists but only 14 actual assists


KDB with his limited playing time had 7 expected assists though he only posted 2 actual assists - that means his chances were of high quality aka big chances.

If you have the XA stats for their time in EPL feel free to avail us and we will see KDB wiping floor with Hazard again.

you just helped me to make my point with the bold. This is the stats for xA for hazard last season.
Like i have always told you, assists is not the measure of a player's creativity or vision.
Were you thinking that the time hazard was having those 4 and 5 number of assists that he was having maybe 2 and 3 xA? Or that when KDB was having 16 and 18 assists that he was having upto 16 and 18 xA respectively?

The season that KDB had 16 and 18 assists, you will be surprised to find out that he did not have up to the same amount for xA. Also, all the years that hazard was having a poor assists number, he was having more xA.

Now, let us say KDB had 16 assists and 12.97 xA and Hazard had 4 assists 6.78 xA.

Without looking at this assists stat now, someone will say that hazard is a poor creator. But, when the lord wants to bless hazard and give him extra 4 to his xA the way he gave to KDB, you will see that hazard will have 10 assists and you will no longer see it as a mediocre number.


That is exactly What happened last season and the opposite is what have been happening years back.


Have you not tried to ask yourself, why is it that when hazard had Costa in his team he was having 9, 4 and 5, but when he had no reasonable striker [e.g. Last season] he had 15 assists. Why was it so?

Ibime:
KDB cross ball quickly and decisively to man from the wing as you saw against Spurs

If Hazard receive ball in those KDB positions against Spurs, he will take his time to dribble, run to the line and release one useless cutback after the box is already packed with opposition players that would block off or unbalance the striker.

Sorry, OPTA has already released those expected assists stats in case you missed it


KDB - 122 EPL appearances - 69 big chances
Hazard - 245 EPL appearances - 67 big chances

sorry, the bold is not xassist or xchances created.


You must be mistaking hazard for another player. Hazard style is not the typical cross and nod or tap in. He rarely does that. He likes to cut in and lay a pass.

Ibime:
Nonsense.

Hazard chance be like ball wey he just flash for box after he dribble reach line. Striker go dey tussle with 3 men to take one unbalanced shot.

KDB chance na clear chance, just you and keeper.

That's why una dey shout Hazard chance created, Hazard chance created when he was dropping 5 league assist in 2016/17. Fabregas meanwhile was putting Costa clean through on keeper to be taking all the assists.

No be the same Costa they both played with?

Lord, if you give me chance in this life, let it be painless like KDB and Fabregas chance, not the one I will still be battling with opposition like Hazard chance.

do you know that opta has made it easy for us to find out the flaw in this your argument.

There is something opta calls expected assists; that is, a chance that is most expected to become an assist. That is in essence what you like to call a quality chance. You Can go and get that stats for both players so that we can compare to see how heads and shoulder KDB is above hazard.


Again, how many times do you see hazard put in a cross across the face of goal? It is even KDB that makes more of such cross than Hazard.

When KDB used to play as a winger, his main way of creating chances used to be from the far flank across goal hoping that someone will get at the end of it.

The position a player plays also determines how many crosses he will be making from the byline. You don't expect a winger to be making crosses from the middle when he is playing from the flanks. I don't know how you don't consider that.

donjazet:
Vision I think is the ability to continually spot the runs of attackers behind the defense to create clear goal scoring chances.

However I don't think there is a clear metric to measure this particular football ability. Passing accuracy comes to mind but I don't think that it describes it perfectly.

well, for me, vision is the ability of a player to spot the opportunity to play a creative pass or makes a movement with or without the ball that opens up an opposition defense.


now, to a large extent the number of chances created by a player can determine how visionary the player is.

Ibime:
You're the one who confuse vision and dribbling. They are not the same thing.

Vision is what we call sharp sharp hotel - pass and cross delivered quickly and accurately before the opposition know what hit them

you are mistaking style of play to vision. i think that is where you are having the problem.




now, can you tell me the metric that can be used to measure this vision. what stat can we look at and say that this player has good vision or not?

donjazet:
I have noticed that a lot of our fans here let sentiments cloud their judgement. KDB has clearly been more productive than hazard the last 5 years.
People seem to forget that last season under Sarri was Hazard's personal best. 31 goals plus assist was his best, which in turn is inferior to other top attackers in the game.

even hazard himself disagrees with the bold. it is his best for people rate the performance of a player by adding his goals and assists, not for people like me who put into consideration the all round performance.

Ibime:
Yes, I'm not stupid. They are not mates in vision or assist work

That 15 assists which is a pinnacle for Hazard is a low number for DeBruyne if fit.

It's like Iniesta somehow managed to score 15 goals one season, and you start asking me if an injured Lampard would be able to make that number if he was fully fit.

Answer - Hell Mothafucking Yeah!

low number? Okay






each time you use this word vision in relation to football, i begin to wonder what you mean by vision.

can you define vision in football and tell you the stat that can be used to determine how visionary a player is?

Ibime:
In 2015/16 season, KDB missed just over 2 months with injury.

Your 15 assists is child's play to him

so, you agree with raumdeuter that hazard topped the assist chart last season because kdb was injured?

airmark:


Coutinho for life. When God be for you, even your haters have no choice, but to surrender.

When a man’s ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. prov. 16:7

BlueRayDick:
What do you think about Rojo's handball vs Nigeria that wasn't awarded penalty?

go and look for the new rule that was updated by UEFA during the summer break and also go through the fifa standard rule for handball. Your question will be answered.

raumdeuter:
2015/16
KDB 16 goals + assists
Hazard 8 goals + assists

2016/17
KDB 25 g+a
Hazard 21 g+ a

2017/18
KDB 24 g+a
Hazard 16 g+a

2018/19 KDB injured

We have now seen how useless Hazard was

When KDB was fit he outperformed Hazard all seasons except when injured

These are numbers they dont lie

you are always arguing outside the argument.

In 2015/2016, KDB had less than 15 assists, what makes you think that if he was fit last season, he wouldn't have had the same number with that of 2015/2016?

obainojazz:
But na only one leg e suppose dey na... My issue is that it's mostly for lesbians and girls Wey belong.

and runs girls

nihilistjnr:
I hope you can see the ivanovicification of azpilicueta


Small time now, dem go dey dribble am from standing position.

We get luck say Montero don commot EPL

lol

you remember that montero wey been wan kill Ivanovic that year. Chei!!! Me i pity Ivanovic that day

nihilistjnr:
352 is my preferred formation now.

I need that trio of kova-akpruka-kante.

But I will play Kovacic in the hole close to the strikers, let Akpuruka sit and spray, with Kante box to box

Our central defenders are too stupid for a two. Our rightack too slow to play in a four, and Emerson only has pace with no application.

Our wingers no get sense, so give them the simplest instructions ever - run to byline and then pullout.

Our strikers are useless individually, pair them up, and together they might only be half as bad.

This is one of the worst squads I've seen wearing the badge ever.

Tammy Abraham is especially terrible. The guy plays with the talent of a wooden bench.

were ya nwayo, oga'di mma

lordfalcao:
Please what is Abraham biggest attributes? He can't shoot, he can't nod, he can't even make run..


At least we know morata can nod

morata can also make good and well timed runs behind a defence.

Ibime:
Leicester want kill us

Please Lampard should always play all 3 of Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic going forward.

Mount in that midfield just weak us

Kimbeast will have a reason why kovacic should not start.

Roland17:
Negodu Willian! His kick could not even beat the 1st man.

man is just returning from injury. Cut him some slacks

Ibime:
KDB has NEVER played a full season in EPL and not topped 15 assists.

what do you mean by a full season?

afrodoc2:
Oh ok. That’s a fair point.
Even though KDB is the more visionary player he might not beat Hazard in assists every season.

gaskiya.



though i will still argue the bold with facts. but, that is an argument for another day

afrodoc2:
It is what it is. If you like a player that loves drimbling then just claim it and agree your guy is a drimbler and not as productive as his supposed peers.

No come dey lie to us that he is something different.
Hazard has just about 8 EPL assists in total more than KDB despite playing 3 more seasons and over 100 more games.
Passing and vision wise dem no be mate. Hazard is stronger, faster, holds the ball better and is a better drimbler though.

that question was in challenge of the claim by raumdeuter.




FYI, i don't judge players' creativity from the number of assists they have, rather from the number of chances they create.

afrodoc2:
You asked a question and i answered it. KDB has 2 assist seasons better than Hazard’s best season.

FYI KDB is assisting at a rate approximately double Hazard’s.

you are missing it. raumdueter said that hazard only topped the assists chart last season because kdb was injured. then, i am asking, in all the seasons that kdb has played in the epl, did he get more than 15 assists?

if there is one season that kdb did not have more than 15 assists, what makes raumdeuter think that if kdb was fit last season that he wouldn't have had just the same number or below of assist with the time he didn't have more than 15?


that is my point

afrodoc2:
18 assists in 2016-2017 16 assists in 2017-2018.
Hazard’s best season in terms of assists is only 3rd best for KDB.

has KDB only spent two seasons in EPL?

larride:
Name the players they compare with Hazard that didn’t outscore him.

so, it is no longer goal contribution, it is about who scored more?