₦airaland Forum

Very well said it's sad that people just don't understand this things even big pastors err in this topic.... Yes. I agree with you and I also strongly believe that the doctrine of Rapture before the great tribulation period is a deception. It is not backed up by scriptures. We have to be in the tribulation to be tested and tried through the fire to come out like refined gold.
Even those who claim to be adept bible readers and teachers have erred in their opinions concerning rapture.
Remember the verse that says: "I will keep you from the temptations that will come upon the world" God was talking to the elect/saved people. If those days were not shortned, no man mught be saved but they have been shortened for the sake of the elect. It means the we are part of the Great trib. Or, can we say the great trib is already taking place today? No. The world is still living in pleasures for us to conclude that we are in the great tribulations spoken of in Revrlations. Even the wealthy sinners will be suffering in the great tribulations and that is not happening today.
Rapture will br an easy way out for us all, but God does not operate like that. I have personally had a dream of what a Great trib period will look like and trust me it was not pleasant and they looked like giants and strange creatures who took us all captive and controlled the nations of the world. Technology will play a huge role in that domination.
But do u alao remember that the bible says ; "But i will keep you safe from the time of "troubles" that will come upon the earth" ? That we will only see the wicked getting their rewards but thw saints will not be destroyed by those very evil times. People will want ti dies but death will be elusive and run away from them. So it is a time of great suffering for all as a result of the wrath of God upon the earth for all the evil done throughout the melleniums/mellenias and Christians will be part of it. Economies will fail, no power sources, hunger, diseases, natiral disasters will be everywhere, no peace and wars and oppressions will be the order of the day. Then in the midst of thsese, Jesus will return to gather his elect who never gave up the rightheous race. That is when the so-called rapture will take place and immediately after that, more calamities will befall those people who are left in the world or on the ground. Those who were not gathered to the air, clouds to meet with Jesus. This is the secong woe and calamity to fall upon the world. Then after all those days will then be the great day of Judgement and thrones will be set for even some of the human saints(of ancient times/old, and now) to judge the people of the world.[/quote]

How do I get in contact with you I have sth really important to discuss with you thanks.

Hello.

I won't presume to teach you anything, since you seem pretty confident in the things you teach, but I thought that I might point out that while you're right that debating the Scriptures will not change what is written, it does help those of us who are willing to seek the Truth and believe it when they find it to see our errors and be corrected. So, debate does change something.

I will add that it is interesting that it is fear that guides the interpretation that there is such a thing as a rapture. The Tribulation is certainly not a pleasant time to live through, but then even personal tribulation is not a pleasant experience for believers to endure. This latter is the obvious reason that prosperity preachers and "Word of Faith" theology are so popular, isn't it? The fear of suffering is a strong driver for a pursuit of false teaching. The other driver is love of pleasure.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Matthew 13:22 (NIV)

It is true that we ought not to go seeking pain and difficulty in this world just because we are Christians. It is no proof of acceptance with God only that we suffer in this world. There are different kinds of suffering and not all of them are suited to being a Christian. Some sufferings belong to unbelievers and some to believers, and then there are those that belong to all human beings regardless what their attitude to God is.

17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
1 Peter 3:17 (NIV)

15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
1 Peter 4:15 (NIV)

7 Yet man is born to trouble
as surely as sparks fly upward.
Job 5:7 (NIV)

33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33 (NKJV)

12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
1 Peter 4:12-14 (NKJV)

11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12 (NKJV)

22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22 (NKJV)

You obviously know of personal tribulation through which every believer must pass, so I am not presuming to teach you anything about that (or anything about anything at all, for that matter). My point here is merely that suffering is a normal part of life for everyone, more so for Christians than for unbelievers, and even more so for Christians who get more and more serious with the Lord and zealous for His Truth than those who remain lukewarm and immature in the Truth.

Regarding the Tribulation, again, for the sake of clarity, I am not presuming to teach you or even to argue with you. Please believe whatever you want and teach whatever you please. The reward for that is yours alone. I am only offering what I have learned here for the sake of any who may be willing to hear and in case you may be willing to hear it too. This is what I see the Scriptures say about this --

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV)

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)

Are the elect in Matthew 24:31 above Jews? I think that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 says an emphatic "NO." Obviously, the Thessalonians were not Jews.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV)

This passage immediately above is usually the primary passage on which the doctrine of the rapture is based because of that phrase "caught up" in v.17. Since it is this very event of which Paul was speaking in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (note the Lord's descent from Heaven in 1 Thess 4:16 and His Coming in 2 Thess 2:1 -- both mean the same thing), it is clear that the "we" in 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to the Thessalonians too.

In short, I have never seen any real biblical justification for the idea that believers, even if only Gentile believers, will not pass through the Tribulation, quite the opposite in fact. The Scriptures are replete with warnings to prepare ourselves for that time, so encouraging believers to not do so is tantamount to leading them into the apostasy that Paul prophesied in the passage from 2 Thessalonians 2 above. That is quite a wicked thing to do, and the Lord does not ignore it. There will be dire consequences for anyone who teaches that.

As for the Tribulation being the time of Jacob's trouble, this is true. The idea though that Jacob or the nation of Israel is somehow different from the Church is quite weird, especially seeing what the Scriptures teach so very explicitly in Romans 9-11. Here's an excerpt of that --

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:13-24 (NKJV)

That is, we who are Gentile believers were made part of Israel the cultivated olive tree, because we believed the Gospel. That is, it is Israel that is the Church and believing in Jesus makes us part of that Church. Unbelieving Israelites who should ordinarily be part of the Church because of their ancestry are cut off from the Church because of their rejection of the Gospel. So, this idea that there is a difference between Israel and the Church is foreign to the Bible. If it is, then the idea that the time of Jacob's trouble does not apply to the "Church" is foreign to the Bible as well. In fact, the whole Bible is clear that believers, both Jewish and Gentile, will experience the Tribulation.

One word of warning that it would be good for believers to heed is that any idea that it is the nation of Israel that will suffer during the Tribulation is apt to make us accomplices in their suffering during the Tribulation, because we will definitely be here when the Antichrist will be oppressing the nation of Israel. We will be here too when he will lead the world's armies to attack them at Armageddon. If we think that we will not experience the Tribulation and that only ethnic Israelites will, then we will fail to properly interpret what is happening when it begins and help or even join the cause of the Antichrist when he begins his oppression of them. If we are found doing so, we will suffer exactly what followers of the Beast will suffer. The Bible has warned us; we would be wise to heed the warning and prepare for those terrible times that are certain to come upon all the world including believers.

Finally, obviously, as alBHAGDADI said, we will not suffer God's wrath. When the trumpet judgments, bowl judgments, and thunder judgments are brought upon the earth, no believer needs to fear that he or she is the target of those judgments. But Satan's hatred of Christians, the Antichrist's and the world's persecution of them is a different matter. We already suffer these things to some degree now. We will suffer them at their worst during the Tribulation. This is why we are told to prepare. If we break and apostatize under those persecutions, then the Lake of Fire will be our portion forever. If we endure it until the end, we will be saved.

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NKJV)

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Romans 8:16-17 (NKJV)

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13 (NKJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 (NKJV)

Grace be with all God's Children.

10 If you faint in the day of adversity,
Your strength is small.
Proverbs 24:10 (NKJV)

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Matthew 24:32-35 (NKJV)

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:42 (NKJV)

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out [that is, are coming out or will come out] of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9 (NKJV)[/quote]