₦airaland Forum

JONNYSPUTE:
.....Why are most of you ladies like this?

Sis nobody is competing or saying that the guys should not be blamed but what we are talking about or saying is who bears the consequence more? .

The answer to that question is SOCIETY. You and I bear the consequences, we are the ones paying the price for unwanted children with NO access to resources, NO safety net, NO education.

Which do you think is better for our society? A collective effort or the mess we have now? Geez!

It’s OK, we don’t agree. As I told you before I am fine with anybody that believes in gender equality (equal access to opportunities regardless of gender) please can you post the prove of the bolded? Also, FYI all the discriminatory laws in Nigeria would also benefit Nigerian men if they passed, in-fact it benefits the whole society. Just because I post replies in terms of women because I am a woman and I am speaking based on my experience doesn’t mean I WANT to take rights away from men. The Pan dude and I are having a debate if women now have equal access to opportunities that Nigerian men have and if they do, can we now say Nigeria is a gender equal society.

I am a woman, so I make most of my arguments from that perspective just as the men here have made their arguments from their own perspectives. All the Pan dude’s points have all been examples of the place/role/interactions of men in society, which is fine, he can only speak from his male perspective. I am yet to see one rebuke from you that he is being pro man.

If you are pro equality as you claim, if group A of people in a society already have some rights that group B don’t have, Should group B try to have those rights as well? Does B having those rights threaten the rights of A? Does group B deserve them? Does it make society equal?

Also, please can you list the ethos of a feminist that is pro women and anti man? Because I am curious to know why you keep labeling me anti man. I am also going to exit this thread because it seems you only want views that mirror yours. You opened a thread up for discussion now you are mad people have different opinions. You are not been tolerant of people’s views that are different from yours. Every movement has the minorities they’re fighting for. Civil rights fight for the rights of black men and women, animal rights for the rights of animals, gay rights for lgbtq people, religious freedom right. As all these people are fighting for these rights they also want an equal society. I support all those and I have actually donated money to some of those causes. I doubt the feminism movement would be hurt by you disavowing it.

Michellekabod2:
I don't do pro-man or pro-women, I do pro-equality Hahn. When it's obvious people still take sides or are bias in the nature I can't reason with such people...
It's a public forum where all can express their opinions freely,thus I am not in a position to enforce my beliefs on others... That's why you see the title of the thread is : my idea of feminism.

As Marialavina will say it's better not to do tags and soil your fingers,it's better you believe what you believe without tagging yourself as so so so and so...
If feminism is a one gendered side stuff as Buda and lib chick claim it is then it's not worth it and remains to me a butt-joke. I'd rather be on my own fighting against any wrong done against any HUMAN,male or female,straight or gay, young or old,black or white....
I do believe the definition of feminism as defined by the two are archaic....
I guess the issue has been flogged enough(not a person that has the strength to debate for long)....so lemme just leave this thread ,and sleep

I agree. With this sentiment, some women have actually killed men. Violence shouldn’t be tolerated from either sex. A man should have the right to self defense and the law is with him on this one.

pansophist:
If a woman hit me, I will hit her back. If a man hit me, I will hit him back. The arguments that a woman is weak, hence, a man should not hit her no matter the circumstances (in your own words) is nonsense. Only a kid will hit me and I will ignore, but not a woman,
she will get exactly what she dishes out. Its called equal treatment. Otherwise will be benevolent sexism, a softer kind of sexism.

Sorry, not sorry.

pansophist:
@libchick



So working longer hours, willingness to commute farther and relocate, choose high paying careers, do labor-intensive and dangerous jobs, aggressive negotiation for better pay and raise, and unlikelihood to take leave etc, do not count as effort from men's part? got it. Not much to discuss further there. And true, men do not give birth and nurture babies, but men are the family workhorse financially, doing fatal jobs, and also household labour (triggered I know lol). Both gender compliment themselves seemlessly. It is disingenoeous to ignore the part men play in their household, and it is the very reason why globally, women have a longer life expectany that men. Dont be disingeneous.

And what exactly is the opportunity women cant access? Furthermore, how exactly is the coporate world punishing women for being women? please in your next reply, corroborate your iteractions with facts. Just because you feel, think or believe you are oppressed doesnt mean you are, especially if you are not backing it up with verifiable sources, like I did. Its known as victimism, to be a professional victim, and that is the trendy thing young people this days specialized it. Dont be that person.



Too much emotions in one post. See, if you can prove that a company rejected your job application on the basis of sex, sue them. There are numerous pro-bono lawyers that will do it for you, as it is an easy way to rack in free cash, and even if you have to pay a lawyer yourself, it is reembursed, and you could claim additional damage for all your expenses. And again, how is the law not enacted but not enforced? can you cite any examples of the justice system ignoring cases with proven sexism?



See as you shot yourself in the foot. So basically you inadvertently support my previous iterations that western women choose low paying career, hence they do not go for high paying professions such as STEM? good. so why are you surprised women are paid less then? especially with the additional effort men put in their work, as outlined in my first paragragh?



Just as men control the prison that jailed Bryan banks and distroyed his career after being falsely accused of rape by a vindictive girl, and she was believed without evidence. The police that guard your neighbourhood, those that died building the roads you commute in daily, houses you live, transporting all the groceries to your favourite supermarket and inventories in your shopping cart to name a few, are all men. Cherrypicking, by saying men own industries is not an argument, and does no justice to your points, if anything, it only exposes your solipsism. About women being proud that they excel in porn, well, if you want to have a discourse about morality, your distaste for jobs with shameful moral decency, then that is a different argument. The issue at hand is that women are paid more than men in porn. Judging from your own logic, isnt it sexism against men? No one forced women to do porn. Women should go and create their own company, and led it in their utopian feminine doctrine as they wish, its more effective doing that.



You keep pandering this lies that women are paid less than men, even with all the evidence grilling in front of you. For the umpteeth time, and in an attempt not to go round circles, women are not paid less than men. If you think you are, sue. You can even be a millionire with one succesfeul lawsuit. repeating this lie doesnt makes it true, if anything, it further solidify the view most reasonable people have about feminism, that they are always looking for irrelevancy, even manufacturing one if there is none. About household labour, wont you do your household labour if you live alone? what exactly is this labour that women do, that men also do not do? and where is your ability to sacrifice in your relationship, as men have been doing from time immemorial, such as working like slave to fund the household, protecting women by dying largely in war, etc?

How many women have died from houseplace death (thats if such term even exist in the first place)? but men die in mass, commit suicide in mass, pay the most tax, but women benefit more from it (e.g affirmative actions, breast cancer getting x2 fundings more than prostrate cancer that affects only men etc)? Even men that slave away their life to make money mostly, from the beginning of time, spent a bulk of it for their family, and women are the prime beneficiary of it. Nairaland is filled with stories of men buying iphones for girls they met in few days, will only marry when they are financially bouyant. For the succession of a loving relationshoip, you need to drop this mindset of approaching it with a capitalistic mindset. If you love your partner and cant do household cores, or disregard how he sacrificed in the relationship in his own way, then I can only feel sorry for such relationship. Let me go a bit personal here. When I was in the uni, my gf lived with me. I didnt asked for a split of bills, or buy groceries and request for refund. It was done out of love. It will be a betrayer from her to yap about household labour, and thats what you are doing here.

Nigeria is equally hard for everyone. Men, women, and animals (have you see zoo lions that looks like goat lately ), bringing feminism into it is just nonsense. Western feminism is used because its the benchmark of your arguments as well. If your discourse was about feminism about Nigeria only, then we could have a discourse on that.

so far, you didnt disprove, weakened, or debunk my arguments, it was quite the opposite. nice try though.

You are right, we are going in circles. Your blanket proclamation “suing a corporation is easy” is FALSE. Lol talking about pro bono lawyers, so you think a pro bono lawyer can compete with a TEAM of Ivy League lawyers on retainers?!!!

Again, because a discriminatory law is passed doesn’t mean the discrimination just goes away (insert race, if you are a black man). For western women the fight is at the enforcement level. Discriminatory company policies that either flout laws or find loop holes are increasingly making it difficult for western women in the work force to access same opportunities as men (example gave you one in my earlier post- see salary disclosure/salary history). Lawsuits are time and money consuming and the woman risks being blackballed in the industry (meaning nobody will hire them again in the industry) Why do women even need lawsuits just to work? Does that sound like equal treatment to you?

Again with another one of your non comparable analogies, we are talking about the access to equal opportunities for ALL women and men and you keep using the example of a tiny slice of the population as prove there is gender equality. So you are telling ALL women in the world that 5% of you are paid more than men so you need to shut up. Why do women earn more than men in the porn and beauty industry? Men. The porn actress excelling in her industry is because men are the target audience for porn lol she is not earning more because women are interested in the woman in a porn movie.

The wars were started by men in the first place. Men were the ones who made laws that prevented women from drafting. Some men willingly fought in those wars and some were forced, while the law left out some women that actually wanted to fight. Also, men weren’t the only ones that fought the wars, women also risked their lives as nurses, cooks etc for the solders at the war fronts. Are you dismissing their contributions?

Again, please read the link you posted, the trend that the statistics showed is that feminists in developed country are NOT going for STEM jobs NOT because they can’t do it but because they don’t need high paying jobs to gain financial freedom, it’s also the same for MEN. It’s the same reason on average a Nigerian man would rather do a STEM major than a Swedish man. Are Nigerian men superior to Swedish men? If what you say is even true that has absolutely NOTHING to do with why women say men are paid more. I am going to say it again, the comparison is within careers and comparable skill, education and experience. No woman is crying that a female arts teacher is paid less than a male software engineer, it makes no logical sense. I don’t know why you keep repeating this talking point.

At the bolded, sure Jan If you say so. If you call your whataboutisms and your impeccable analogies arguments then I deserve a medal lol So now can we talk about gender inequality in Nigeria?

Do you really believe Nigeria is EQUALLY hard for everyone??!

Do you really believe that Nigerian women have same opportunities as Nigerian men so no need to agitate for anything at all?

Are you really comparing a man that has a CHOICE to spend or NOT to spend on a woman with a woman that has no laws written for her to prevent situations that bars her from actually making money?!! To a woman that has lost EVERYTHING with mouth to feed when she was kicked out of her matrimonial home?!! lol one of your impeccable analogy.

Rape is evil. We as a society should ensure a conducive environment for rape victims (man or woman) to be heard. This environment is to be fair to both the victim and the alleged perpetrator. Advocating for victims to be heard and not be shut down is NOT promoting false claims. We should demand a functional police force that is equipped to conduct a fair and thorough investigation. It doesn’t just help the victim get justice it also removes a rapist from society. The society just saved a future victim from being raped. A false report to law enforcement is a crime and the guilty should be punished.

So we have been going back and forth about the nuanced discriminatory laws in western societies. We both agree feminists there fought for and got laws passed. Where we disagree is, you say the laws passed are enough that western women don’t need to be victims anymore. I say laws don’t stop prejudiced people from not enforcing said laws so the fight continues for more laws to stop the prejudiced enforcer.

So would you agree that it’s not the victim Olympics for Nigerian feminists to agitate for those same laws that western feminists now have? Can they have that first? Do you think Nigerian women should fight/want for the following?

- While in Nigeria you can’t discriminate based on tribe, sex, religion etc there is NO legal provision for discriminating while hiring. So someone can be denied a job based on their sex, tribe etc. this law is a disservice to ALL Nigerians. Gender equality - equal access to opportunities by BOTH genders.
- There are NO sexual harassment laws, you might believe innocent men are being falsely accused of rape/sexual harassment but can’t deny some women are actually being raped or sexually harassed.

“ There is no provision in Labour Act that prohibits sexual harassment or any other kind of harassment during employment. If an employee consider that the employer is harassing him/her, the employee can terminate the employment contract by providing the giving an appropriate notice. However, if an employer terminates the employment contract, it is not considered as harassment because the Nigerian law clearly states that the employer can terminate the employment contract for any reason or may be for no reason at all. A Labour Standards Bill, submitted in the National Assembly in 2008, had provision on sexual harassment however the said bill has not been passed yet”
Not to even mention what the anxiety of dodging a randy boss does to the work output of the employee.

Sexual harassment is left to states to help their citizens, so far none except Lagos State.

- No laws that punishes parents that deny their girl child an education. There are laws that says a child should be educated but no provision to punish those that flout it.
- Low age of consent that promotes child marriages
- Laws that protect widows and their children from greedy in-laws are almost non existent and the ones that are place, most times the courts allow ‘tradition’ to supplant it.

I can go on and on (or if I am wrong please let me know, with facts and comparable analogies, no whataboutisms please I don’t mind eating crow)

The irony is gender inequality in Nigeria doesn’t help the economy, when people regardless of gender have access to equal opportunities, it’s always an efficient method of utilizing the nation’s best talents.

These issues might be trivial, ‘emotional’ and irrelevant to you, but this is the reality for most Nigerian women.

FYI according to the US gov, 2017 stat. the funding for prostrate cancer is more than the funding for BOTH cervical and ovarian cancer put together. Although I wonder what cancer has to do with the debate on gender equality in Nigeria? One fight doesn’t negate the other.

LoJ:
I can't speak about the whole world, but having traveled to many countries I can confidently say that for the greater part men and women now have similar rights and opportunities. Of course there are always differences, but these are mainly natural and enrich us as a specie.

Feminism was a glorious and well deserved movement. It is now turning into something else that looks like the fight for women's superiority over everything else.

I live in a country where any wise man should think 10 times before getting married. The laws are so much in favor of women that your life long efforts can be brought to naught 2 seconds after marriage.

I was once an ardent feminist but the story of my own brother opened my eyes for good.

Feminists should ask themselves the question, what is it they are fighting for, and if the fight is still relevant, where and how. In victory, We should learn to stop, else the victory can turn to a defeat.

My opinion.

I can't speak about the whole world, but having traveled to many countries I can confidently say that for the greater part black and white people now have similar rights and opportunities. Of course there are always differences, but these are mainly natural and enrich us as a specie.

Civil rights was a glorious and well deserved movement. It is now turning into something else that looks like the fight for black men superiority over white men.

I live in a country where any wise man should think 10 times before dealing with a black man. The laws are so much in favor of black men that your life long efforts can be brought to naught 2 seconds after dealing with them.

I was once an ardent civil rights activist but the story of my own brother opened my eyes for good.

Black men should ask themselves the question, what is it they are fighting for, and if the fight is still relevant, where and how. In victory, We should learn to stop, else the victory can turn to a defeat.

Racism is dead, black and white men now have similar rights.

My opinion.

I don’t know o it was strange lol

Don’t mind all these companies their excuse was, it’s expensive to hire women but companies that make ‘concessions’ for their female staffs have not shown any difference in their bottom line.

My company has a day care on the premises and the maternity leave is fair not comparable to that of Canada but then the maternity leave in the US is a joke. These things that my company added, it helps a little in bridging that gap and it also helps the company lol because they get full utilization of their female staffs.

Michellekabod2:
Why was your account banned? That's wrong,you posted nothing wrong....don't worry it will be opened after some days..

Meaning I can't quote your post with your previous moniker until it's unbanned .
.
For this work pay, I suggest that pay should be based on working hours, how cumbersome the work is, the skill possessed by the employee et Al and not gender.

Yet still some private organizations will choose to cling to some stereotype and pay women less.

pansophist:
At least you admitted than men are physically stronger than women, awesome. Unlike the feminist I know that believe in the bullshit that sex is a social construct and that women aren't physically weaker compare to men.

Even at that (in reference to your iterations of gender wage gap in same field), the reasons for such (that's if it exists in the first place) is not because of gender, or some patriarchial meeting to pay women less, but it is because of factors that influence salaries, such as working longer hours, willingness to commute farther and relocate, choose high paying careers, do labor-intensive and dangerous jobs, aggressive negotiation for better pay and raise, and unlikelihood to take free leave etc, which statistically, men excel at. It is completely illegal and outlawed to pay people less on factors above their control such as race, sex, gender, orientations, and if anyone can prove such discrimination exist, companies will be punished heavily for it and vilified in social media. And if women can be paid less, most companies will employ women instead, since its a cheaper form of labor. The Washington Post has an interesting revelation about this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/whats-the-real-gender-pay-gap/2016/04/24/314a90ee-08a1-11e6-bdcb-0133da18418d_story.html?noredirect=on

Furthermore, it is proven that the more equal a society becomes, the more it reveals the life choice patterns of both genders. For example in the Scandinavia, the most progressive region in the planet, with feminist government and revered as the most egalitarian region on earth, you will see that women gravitate towards a different path such as hospitality and working with people, as opposed to men who gravitate into STEM and high paying careers. Fun fact, Algeria has more female scientist than the US, because as it seems, the women need to choose a high paying career to escape poverty, compare to westerners who do not have such pressure. You may read more here.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

My point is simple. The gender wage gap can not, and should not be reduced to discrimination by gender. There are lots of variables. If anything, there is a life-choice gap. So now explain to me, why are women paid higher than men in areas such as glamour (e.g fashion modeling), explicit (e.g prostitution, porn), and hospitality (e.g nurses, teacher)?

Female happiness is surely on the decline, as simple googling of it will reveal thousand of academic articles regarding that, I cant summarize it here for you. So you asked for a link, well, here it is. But endeavor to read deeply on it, especially academical publications.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap

My account was frozen for this response lol I don’t know why. Maybe it was a link I posted, I’ve decided to remove it and repost. It’s a link about the teacher gender pay gap. Original post below:

It’s not a Washington post article it’s an opinion article by a conservative writer posted on WP but I will respond to it.

“factors that influence salaries, such as working longer hours, willingness to commute farther and relocate, choose high paying careers...men excel at.”

Men excel at it due to nature and stereotype and not because of any effort on their part. Men don’t give birth and nurture babies, men aren’t expected to keep the home. On paper, it seems like equal opportunities “it’s not illegal for women to work” However, of what use is this opportunity if western women can’t access it?

I am happy you said factors above our control, Women can’t control that they are women, yet the corporate world with their policies are punishing western women for being one.

“It is completely illegal and outlawed to pay people less on factors above their control such as race, sex, gender, orientations, and if anyone can prove such discrimination exist, companies will be punished heavily....”

It’s one thing to pass laws to make gender discrimination illegal, it’s another thing for it to be enforced. The previous generation of western feminists have fought for those laws to be passed now this generation are fighting for it to be enforced. Wether laws are passed or not, it will not stop a sexist man from denying a woman employment or companies to have discriminatory policies. ( for you to relate insert race) For example to hide the pay gap, some companies had policies for employees to hide their salary, any disclosure was grounds for a dismissal. Women found out they were paid lesser than their colleagues. Women had to go back to get laws written to make it illegal for your boss to fire you if you disclose your salary. How else can you negotiate a salary when you don’t even know how much your colleagues are being paid? Some companies still do it, there are numerous law suits pending. Why should women have to keep suing companies just to get equal opportunity? Is that one gender equality? Law suits are money, time and emotional draining and you run the risk of being black balled in the industry.

Women are paid less but women are more expensive for the company’s bottom line that’s why companies higher fewer women. That’s also discriminatory, a women is denied a job because of her gender. Companies have been creative in finding loop holes in discriminatory laws. Again, women are being punished for being women, even single women that have no desire to marry or bear children are discriminated against.

“Furthermore, it is proven that the more equal a society..”

The link you posted explains the trend. The most feminist countries are welfare states and they have better economy. So even though the women can DO STEM jobs they rather do something else because they don’t need a good job to guarantee financial freedom and this is true even for men. Men in America can afford to follow their passion but a Nigerian man cannot. Nigerian parents will not even allow their male children play football even though that’s a viable path to financial freedom but because the risk is too great they discourage their children from following their passion.

“My point is simple. The gender wage gap can not, and should not be reduced to discrimination by gender. There are lots of variables. If anything, there is a life-choice gap. So now explain to me, why are women paid higher than men in areas such as glamour (e.g fashion modeling), explicit (e.g prostitution, porn), and hospitality (e.g nurses, teacher)? “

Umm NO.
Men control the fashion industry, porn, and prostitution industries lol and female teachers are paid less than male teachers.

Let’s just assume all what you wrote is true, so women should be happy and content that we excel in fashion, porn and prostitution?


“Female happiness is surely on the decline, as simple googling of it will reveal thousand of academic articles regarding that, I cant summarize it here for you. So you asked for a link, well, here it is. But endeavor to read deeply on it, especially academical publications.”


Based on the link you posted female happiness is on the decline for US citizen women that work and keep a home. Even though women have fought for laws that allow them work, most times they are still required to do house chores and discriminatory office policies increases the baggage. So while women had an extra baggage, men’s lifestyle continued as is. That’s a nuanced struggle that western feminists are still fighting. That’s a small subset of ALL women. Western women are unhappy that they have to work twice as hard as men for lesser pay.

I am curious why do the anti-feminists on a Nigerian forum always have to use Western women as example to prove there is already gender equality to Nigerian feminists? Is it because western women have more rights than Nigerian women? Why is it so? Were these rights given to them freely? These rights were not given to them, they fought for it. If you believe western women have had enough opportunities and no need for them to agitate for more that’s fine even though I don’t agree. Do you also believe Nigerian women have enough/same opportunities as Nigerian men?

An average Nigerian woman does not live in the west and a Nigerian feminist is more concerned about her opportunities as a woman in Nigeria. I think a much more honest discussion about feminism amongst Nigerians should focus more on gender equality in Nigeria.